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 mrhappyface wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
If only it said:

"All units in a world eaters detachment must have the mark of khorne, or not have any mark keyword."

If only there was some rule that allowed a unit to be in a WE detachment when it is not able to take the mark of Khorne...

It's fine if you're not able to take it
It's not fine if you're able to take it and you restricted from taking it

A citizen is able to walk into a restricted military base
A citizen is restricted from walking into a restricted military base

But surely the restriction takes away the ability?

Some bloke - "I am able to walk through this door"
Cheaky Locksmith - "I've just put a lock on it and eaten the key"
Some bloke - "I am no longer able to walk through this door"

In the same fashion,

Sorcerer - "I am able to take the mark of Khorne"
GW - "You're a filthy sorcerer so I won't let you take the mark of Khorne"
Sorcerer - "I am no longer able to take the mark of Khorne"

I agree with you. Chaos Sorcerers are not able to take the Mark of Khorne. For anyone who disagrees, show me a legal list with a Khorne marked Sorcerer. I'll wait.

I really think this thread is mainly people who have already made up their mind on how this is supposed to work and are interpreting the rules to support their beliefs. A strict reading of the rule pretty clearly shows that Khorne Sorcerers are allowed. As a player who follows both the game and the fluff, my reaction is to ask GW... "You seem to have accidentally allowed Khorne Marked Sorcerers. Was this intentional?"

 Kriswall wrote:
I agree with you. Chaos Sorcerers are not able to take the Mark of Khorne. For anyone who disagrees, show me a legal list with a Khorne marked Sorcerer. I'll wait.

I really think this thread is mainly people who have already made up their mind on how this is supposed to work and are interpreting the rules to support their beliefs. A strict reading of the rule pretty clearly shows that Khorne Sorcerers are allowed. As a player who follows both the game and the fluff, my reaction is to ask GW... "You seem to have accidentally allowed Khorne Marked Sorcerers. Was this intentional?"

It would most likely be FAQ'd the same as the Khorne DP psyker in 7th.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I agree with you. Chaos Sorcerers are not able to take the Mark of Khorne. For anyone who disagrees, show me a legal list with a Khorne marked Sorcerer. I'll wait.

I really think this thread is mainly people who have already made up their mind on how this is supposed to work and are interpreting the rules to support their beliefs. A strict reading of the rule pretty clearly shows that Khorne Sorcerers are allowed. As a player who follows both the game and the fluff, my reaction is to ask GW... "You seem to have accidentally allowed Khorne Marked Sorcerers. Was this intentional?"

It would most likely be FAQ'd the same as the Khorne DP psyker in 7th.

It's safe to say that I'm not actively converting up Khorne Sorcerers for my CSM army.

 Kriswall wrote:
It's safe to say that I'm not actively converting up Khorne Sorcerers for my CSM army.

Do you not wish to live dangerously?

No, for the same reason as the rest of the thread...

All Emperor's Children must have Slaanesh

Khorne Berzerkers have Khorne

Ah, now I found it. I read through the damn codex 3 times and missed it every time. Thanks!

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
If only it said:

"All units in a world eaters detachment must have the mark of khorne, or not have any mark keyword."

If only there was some rule that allowed a unit to be in a WE detachment when it is not able to take the mark of Khorne...

It's fine if you're not able to take it
It's not fine if you're able to take it and you restricted from taking it

A citizen is able to walk into a restricted military base
A citizen is restricted from walking into a restricted military base

But surely the restriction takes away the ability?

Some bloke - "I am able to walk through this door"
Cheaky Locksmith - "I've just put a lock on it and eaten the key"
Some bloke - "I am no longer able to walk through this door"

In the same fashion,

Sorcerer - "I am able to take the mark of Khorne"
GW - "You're a filthy sorcerer so I won't let you take the mark of Khorne"
Sorcerer - "I am no longer able to take the mark of Khorne"

You were never able to walk "through" the door (Unless you're The Flash from DC comics)

What you were able to do was open the door to pass thru the doorway
and the "Cheaky" Locksmith has restricted your ability to open the door


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
If only it said:

"All units in a world eaters detachment must have the mark of khorne, or not have any mark keyword."

If only there was some rule that allowed a unit to be in a WE detachment when it is not able to take the mark of Khorne...

It's fine if you're not able to take it
It's not fine if you're able to take it and you restricted from taking it

A citizen is able to walk into a restricted military base
A citizen is restricted from walking into a restricted military base

But surely the restriction takes away the ability?

Some bloke - "I am able to walk through this door"
Cheaky Locksmith - "I've just put a lock on it and eaten the key"
Some bloke - "I am no longer able to walk through this door"

In the same fashion,

Sorcerer - "I am able to take the mark of Khorne"
GW - "You're a filthy sorcerer so I won't let you take the mark of Khorne"
Sorcerer - "I am no longer able to take the mark of Khorne"

I agree with you. Chaos Sorcerers are not able to take the Mark of Khorne. For anyone who disagrees, show me a legal list with a Khorne marked Sorcerer. I'll wait.

I really think this thread is mainly people who have already made up their mind on how this is supposed to work and are interpreting the rules to support their beliefs. A strict reading of the rule pretty clearly shows that Khorne Sorcerers are allowed. As a player who follows both the game and the fluff, my reaction is to ask GW... "You seem to have accidentally allowed Khorne Marked Sorcerers. Was this intentional?"

I really think this thread is mainly people who have already made up their mind on how this is supposed to work and are interpreting the rules to support their beliefs. A strict reading of the rule pretty clearly shows that Khorne Sorcerers are NOT allowed. As a player who follows both the game and the fluff, my reaction is to ask GW... "You seem to have clearly disallowed Khorne Marked Sorcerers. Which isn't a problem, I have no idea why I bothered mentioning that. Now my actual question... If a unit is able to take a Mark, but is restricted from taking a specific required mark or Already has a Mark that is not Khorne/Slaanesh can they be included in a World Eater/Emperors Children Detachment "

 Talamare wrote:
You were never able to walk "through" the door (Unless you're The Flash from DC comics)

What you were able to do was open the door to pass thru the archway
and the "Cheaky" Locksmith has restricted your ability to open the door

Alright then,

Some bloke - "I am able to open this door"
Cheaky Locksmith - "I've just put a lock on it and eaten the key"
Some bloke - "I am no longer able to open this door"

Would you like to make an arguement rather than just being pedantic?

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
You were never able to walk "through" the door (Unless you're The Flash from DC comics)

What you were able to do was open the door to pass thru the archway
and the "Cheaky" Locksmith has restricted your ability to open the door

Alright then,

Some bloke - "I am able to open this door"
Cheaky Locksmith - "I've just put a lock on it and eaten the key"
Some bloke - "I am no longer able to open this door"

Would you like to make an arguement rather than just being pedantic?

I'll acknowledge my previous point was pedantic, but then you acknowledge your current point is irrelevant

Since the door the "Cheaky" (is this his name btw?) Locksmith seems to be locking is the one that allows Sorcerers to enter a World Eaters list.

 Talamare wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
If only it said:

"All units in a world eaters detachment must have the mark of khorne, or not have any mark keyword."

If only there was some rule that allowed a unit to be in a WE detachment when it is not able to take the mark of Khorne...

It's fine if you're not able to take it
It's not fine if you're able to take it and you restricted from taking it

A citizen is able to walk into a restricted military base
A citizen is restricted from walking into a restricted military base

But surely the restriction takes away the ability?

Some bloke - "I am able to walk through this door"
Cheaky Locksmith - "I've just put a lock on it and eaten the key"
Some bloke - "I am no longer able to walk through this door"

In the same fashion,

Sorcerer - "I am able to take the mark of Khorne"
GW - "You're a filthy sorcerer so I won't let you take the mark of Khorne"
Sorcerer - "I am no longer able to take the mark of Khorne"

You were never able to walk "through" the door (Unless you're The Flash from DC comics)

What you were able to do was open the door to pass thru the doorway
and the "Cheaky" Locksmith has restricted your ability to open the door


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
If only it said:

"All units in a world eaters detachment must have the mark of khorne, or not have any mark keyword."

If only there was some rule that allowed a unit to be in a WE detachment when it is not able to take the mark of Khorne...

It's fine if you're not able to take it
It's not fine if you're able to take it and you restricted from taking it

A citizen is able to walk into a restricted military base
A citizen is restricted from walking into a restricted military base

But surely the restriction takes away the ability?

Some bloke - "I am able to walk through this door"
Cheaky Locksmith - "I've just put a lock on it and eaten the key"
Some bloke - "I am no longer able to walk through this door"

In the same fashion,

Sorcerer - "I am able to take the mark of Khorne"
GW - "You're a filthy sorcerer so I won't let you take the mark of Khorne"
Sorcerer - "I am no longer able to take the mark of Khorne"

I agree with you. Chaos Sorcerers are not able to take the Mark of Khorne. For anyone who disagrees, show me a legal list with a Khorne marked Sorcerer. I'll wait.

I really think this thread is mainly people who have already made up their mind on how this is supposed to work and are interpreting the rules to support their beliefs. A strict reading of the rule pretty clearly shows that Khorne Sorcerers are allowed. As a player who follows both the game and the fluff, my reaction is to ask GW... "You seem to have accidentally allowed Khorne Marked Sorcerers. Was this intentional?"

I really think this thread is mainly people who have already made up their mind on how this is supposed to work and are interpreting the rules to support their beliefs. A strict reading of the rule pretty clearly shows that Khorne Sorcerers are NOT allowed. As a player who follows both the game and the fluff, my reaction is to ask GW... "You seem to have clearly disallowed Khorne Marked Sorcerers. Which isn't a problem, I have no idea why I bothered mentioning that. Now my actual question... If a unit is able to take a Mark, but is restricted from taking a specific required mark or Already has a Mark that is not Khorne/Slaanesh can they be included in a World Eater/Emperors Children Detachment "

Looks like someone knows how copy/paste works. I'll continue to read this thread, but there is very little point in debating with people who have already made up their minds and aren't able to see the basic logic inherent in a few odd sentences. This is my last comment.

To have a World Eaters Sorcerer, precisely one thing has to happen. You must choose the World Eaters keyword as your <Legion> on a Sorcerer. Is there any wording preventing that? No, there is not. We also have to select a <Mark of Chaos>. What are our options? Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh aren't valid options as they can't be paired with World Eaters. Khorne isn't a valid option as it can't be paired with the Sorcerer. No mark is a valid option. It is a valid option when the unit in question isn't able to take Khorne. Sorcerers aren't able to take Khorne. Literally don't know how to say this in another way that would allow someone to understand. Regardless of how you feel about World Eaters Sorcerers in the fluff, the current rules allow them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talamare wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
You were never able to walk "through" the door (Unless you're The Flash from DC comics)

What you were able to do was open the door to pass thru the archway
and the "Cheaky" Locksmith has restricted your ability to open the door

Alright then,

Some bloke - "I am able to open this door"
Cheaky Locksmith - "I've just put a lock on it and eaten the key"
Some bloke - "I am no longer able to open this door"

Would you like to make an arguement rather than just being pedantic?

I'll acknowledge my previous point was pedantic, but then you acknowledge your current point is irrelevant

Since the door the "Cheaky" (is this his name btw?) Locksmith seems to be locking is the one that allows Sorcerers to enter a World Eaters list.

One more post because I think I see your misconception. You seem to be taking the Mark of Khorne as a blanket prerequisite for joining the World Eaters. As in... Sorcerers can't take a Mark of Khorne, thus not meeting the requirement to join the World Eaters. It IS a prerequisite, but it ONLY applies to units that are able to take the Mark of Khorne... "if able". Who can't take a Mark of Khorne? Any unit that doesn't have the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and Sorcerers.

And I'll ask again... are Sorcerers able to take the Mark of Khorne? If yes, show me one example in a valid 40k army list. If not, then they aren't bound by the World Eaters requirement to have the Mark of Khorne as only units that are able to take a Mark of Khorne are bound by the requirement.

 Talamare wrote:
I'll acknowledge my previous point was pedantic, but then you acknowledge your current point is irrelevant

Since the door the "Cheaky" (is this his name btw?) Locksmith seems to be locking is the one that allows Sorcerers to enter a World Eaters list.

The point isn't irrelevent: it's an anolgy to demonstrate how the wording "if able to" works.

The bloke is able to open the door but the cheaky (he's cheaky cause he goes around and locks people doors all the time) locksmith locks the door which takes away the bloke's ability to open the door. The bloke is not able to open the door.

Likewise, the sorcerer is able to take the mark of Khorne but the codex says he can't take it which takes away the Sorcerer's ability to take the mark of Khorne. The Sorcerer is not able to take the mark of Khorne.

Why doesn't this make sense?

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
I'll acknowledge my previous point was pedantic, but then you acknowledge your current point is irrelevant

Since the door the "Cheaky" (is this his name btw?) Locksmith seems to be locking is the one that allows Sorcerers to enter a World Eaters list.

The point isn't irrelevent: it's an anolgy to demonstrate how the wording "if able to" works.

The bloke is able to open the door but the cheaky (he's cheaky cause he goes around and locks people doors all the time) locksmith locks the door which takes away the bloke's ability to open the door. The bloke is not able to open the door.

Likewise, the sorcerer is able to take the mark of Khorne but the codex says he can't take it which takes away the Sorcerer's ability to take the mark of Khorne. The Sorcerer is not able to take the mark of Khorne.

Why doesn't this make sense?

It makes sense, kinda, but it's irrelevant.

To put it in an analogy, or whatever it's called, imagine that there's the Khorne door. If you CAN take Mark of Khorne, you must proceed through the Khorne door, which requires you to be marked Khorne.

But, there's a second door, only available if you CANNOT be marked Khorne. That's the door the Sorcerer would use, since they can't be marked Khorne.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
I'll acknowledge my previous point was pedantic, but then you acknowledge your current point is irrelevant

Since the door the "Cheaky" (is this his name btw?) Locksmith seems to be locking is the one that allows Sorcerers to enter a World Eaters list.

The point isn't irrelevent: it's an anolgy to demonstrate how the wording "if able to" works.

The bloke is able to open the door but the cheaky (he's cheaky cause he goes around and locks people doors all the time) locksmith locks the door which takes away the bloke's ability to open the door. The bloke is not able to open the door.

Likewise, the sorcerer is able to take the mark of Khorne but the codex says he can't take it which takes away the Sorcerer's ability to take the mark of Khorne. The Sorcerer is not able to take the mark of Khorne.

Why doesn't this make sense?

It makes sense, kinda, but it's irrelevant.

To put it in an analogy, or whatever it's called, imagine that there's the Khorne door. If you CAN take Mark of Khorne, you must proceed through the Khorne door, which requires you to be marked Khorne.

But, there's a second door, only available if you CANNOT be marked Khorne. That's the door the Sorcerer would use, since they can't be marked Khorne.

Again, my anology has nothing to do with becoming a World Eater, it was about determining whether the Sorcerer is able to take the mark of Khorne, my anology shows that the sorcerer isn't able to take the mark of Khorne. From that you can then follow on to show the Sorcerer can become a World Eater.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
I'll acknowledge my previous point was pedantic, but then you acknowledge your current point is irrelevant

Since the door the "Cheaky" (is this his name btw?) Locksmith seems to be locking is the one that allows Sorcerers to enter a World Eaters list.

The point isn't irrelevent: it's an anolgy to demonstrate how the wording "if able to" works.

The bloke is able to open the door but the cheaky (he's cheaky cause he goes around and locks people doors all the time) locksmith locks the door which takes away the bloke's ability to open the door. The bloke is not able to open the door.

Likewise, the sorcerer is able to take the mark of Khorne but the codex says he can't take it which takes away the Sorcerer's ability to take the mark of Khorne. The Sorcerer is not able to take the mark of Khorne.

Why doesn't this make sense?

It makes sense, kinda, but it's irrelevant.

To put it in an analogy, or whatever it's called, imagine that there's the Khorne door. If you CAN take Mark of Khorne, you must proceed through the Khorne door, which requires you to be marked Khorne.

But, there's a second door, only available if you CANNOT be marked Khorne. That's the door the Sorcerer would use, since they can't be marked Khorne.

It's extraordinarily relevant. The rule we're all debating says a unit has to take the Mark of Khorne IF ABLE. Determining whether or not a Sorcerer IS ABLE to take the Mark of Khorne is completely relevant. There aren't two doors. There is one door. Two kinds of people can go through...
1. Units that are able to take the Mark of Khorne AND do take the Mark of Khorne.
2. Units that are not able to take the Mark of Khorne.

The door here is becoming a World Eater.

I suppose. It just feels like unneeded complication.

The rules are pretty clear without metaphors.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I suppose. It just feels like unneeded complication.

The rules are pretty clear without metaphors.

Well according to Talamare it isn't clear which is why I tried a different angle.

 Kriswall wrote:
I really think this thread is mainly people who have already made up their mind on how this is supposed to work and are interpreting the rules to support their beliefs.

I think statement already effectively sealed the thread, tho it was probably already sealed a little earlier than this. Unless everyone brings up new arguments everyone will just keep repeating the same arguments.

Wait for FAQ

 JNAProductions wrote:
I suppose. It just feels like unneeded complication.

The rules are pretty clear without metaphors.

I agree that it's pretty clear, but what can you do.

Just when we had a ton of good will for Games Workshop, they pull a Games workshop.

Legion rules gone, marks do nothing, and they even screw this up.

Way to go.

RAW, completely legal to have Plague Marine World Eaters.

Hooray. *sarcasm*

Slave wrote:
Just when we had a ton of good will for Games Workshop, they pull a Games workshop.

Legion rules gone, marks do nothing, and they even screw this up.

Way to go.

RAW, completely legal to have Plague Marine World Eaters.

Hooray. *sarcasm*

So we definitely do have legion rules and Marks of chaos give access to auras, powers and strategems.

FAQ isn't out yet, there have always been hickups in new codeces.

It's fun to hate on GW for no reason isn't it? (Not saying GW are a great company but they are getting better)

If ANYONE realistically thinks you will be allowed World Eaters sorcerers in any kind of setting they are sorely misguided.

 sfshilo wrote:
If ANYONE realistically thinks you will be allowed World Eaters sorcerers in any kind of setting they are sorely misguided.

Isn't "misguided" what chaos is all about???

 mrhappyface wrote:

Slave wrote:
Just when we had a ton of good will for Games Workshop, they pull a Games workshop.

Legion rules gone, marks do nothing, and they even screw this up.

Way to go.

RAW, completely legal to have Plague Marine World Eaters.

Hooray. *sarcasm*

So we definitely do have legion rules and Marks of chaos give access to auras, powers and strategems.

FAQ isn't out yet, there have always been hickups in new codeces.

It's fun to hate on GW for no reason isn't it? (Not saying GW are a great company but they are getting better)

We have legion rules for who? Maybe you are not on Facebook? They have stated no less than 10 times now that those cult troops are elites, plus in their own World Eaters army, they are also elites. Bonus: Show me where the legion rules are in the codex. I'll wait.

Where does them being Elites mean there's no Legion rules?

Slave wrote:
We have legion rules for who? Maybe you are not on Facebook? They have stated no less than 10 times now that those cult troops are elites, plus in their own World Eaters army, they are also elites. Bonus: Show me where the legion rules are in the codex. I'll wait.

I guess your right... This +1A I have for all my WE units and this -1LD aura I have for my NL must have just appeared out of no where...

(On the subject of cult troops as elites, I am aware of GW stance on this as I have asked them on Facebook and WarhammerTV. However, locally, it is very easy to just show people there are 2 profiles for cult units: "I am using the troop profile in the index, not the elite profile in the codex since the troop one hasn't been updated".)

There will be no World Eater Sorcerers.

It may require an FaQ, but the operation rests on whether or not a unit has the <Mark of Chaos> 'Keyword'. If it does, then it has the 'ability', and, having the ability, must then be assigned <Mark of Khorne> to be a World Eater. If a unit lacks the <Mark of Chaos> 'Keyword', it may still be a World Eater.

Being prohibited from taking a mark means you don't have permission to take that mark, it doesn't mean you don't have the <Mark of Chaos> 'Keyword' ability.

This is similar to ye olde, "Can I go to the bathroom?" bit, illustrating that ability and permission are different things.

DCannon4Life wrote:
There will be no World Eater Sorcerers.

It may require an FaQ, but the operation rests on whether or not a unit has the <Mark of Chaos> 'Keyword'. If it does, then it has the 'ability', and, having the ability, must then be assigned <Mark of Khorne> to be a World Eater. If a unit lacks the <Mark of Chaos> 'Keyword', it may still be a World Eater.

Being prohibited from taking a mark means you don't have permission to take that mark, it doesn't mean you don't have the <Mark of Chaos> 'Keyword' ability.

This is similar to ye olde, "Can I go to the bathroom?" bit, illustrating that ability and permission are different things.

Are you confirming the existence of World Eaters Plague Marines?

 Kriswall wrote:

Looks like someone knows how copy/paste works. I'll continue to read this thread, but there is very little point in debating with people who have already made up their minds and aren't able to see the basic logic inherent in a few odd sentences. This is my last comment.

To have a World Eaters Sorcerer, precisely one thing has to happen. You must choose the World Eaters keyword as your <Legion> on a Sorcerer. Is there any wording preventing that? No, there is not. We also have to select a <Mark of Chaos>. What are our options? Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh aren't valid options as they can't be paired with World Eaters. Khorne isn't a valid option as it can't be paired with the Sorcerer. No mark is a valid option. It is a valid option when the unit in question isn't able to take Khorne. Sorcerers aren't able to take Khorne. Literally don't know how to say this in another way that would allow someone to understand. Regardless of how you feel about World Eaters Sorcerers in the fluff, the current rules allow them.

Have the Sorcerer take the Mark of J.R. "Bob" Dobbs. Emperor's Children Sorcerers are actually extracting Slack from the Warp

Edit: Mr Happyface is right in that you can still take the Index Troops Zerkers because it's a distinct and different datasheet.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Edit: Mr Happyface is right in that you can still take the Index Troops Zerkers because it's a distinct and different datasheet.

Is it?

They could have included Troop Berserkers in the new book.

It's not like they are called something different or there is any indication that they are something different.

I think you need an FAQ to be allowed to do so, than an FAQ to be prevented to do so.

 Talamare wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Edit: Mr Happyface is right in that you can still take the Index Troops Zerkers because it's a distinct and different datasheet.

Is it?

They could have included Troop Berserkers in the new book.

It's not like they are called something different or there is any indication that they are something different.

I think you need an FAQ to be allowed to do so, than an FAQ to be prevented to do so.

One has an elites symbol on the datasheet, the other has a troops symbol on the data sheet.

World Eaters psyker? That's too much heresy even for them.