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If a model is equipped with a pistol and a grenade, can it throw the grenade when within 1" of an enemy model?

 drone9 wrote:
If a model is equipped with a pistol and a grenade, can it throw the grenade when within 1" of an enemy model?

No.

Follow Up Question: What would give you the impression that you could?

Pistol reads:

A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but it must target the closest enemy unit. [...]

Grenade reads:

Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one instead of firing any other weapon.

So the argument was that if the unit is shooting (i.e. their pistols while within 1'') they might be allowed to switch one for a grenade.

 drone9 wrote:
Pistol reads:

A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but it must target the closest enemy unit. [...]

Grenade reads:

Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one instead of firing any other weapon.

So the argument was that if the unit is shooting (i.e. their pistols while within 1'') they might be allowed to switch one for a grenade.

Fair enough. The answer is still no, because the grenade doesn't have the rule allowing you to fire it within 1". That rule doesn't magically go away because you own a pistol, it goes away if you want to fire the pistol.

Roger that. Thank you!

Yes, grenades can be "fired" in close combat because it falls under the "any other weapon" category. In other words, if the model has a pistol, it can "shoot" a grenade instead.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Yes, grenades can be "fired" in close combat because it falls under the "any other weapon" category. In other words, if the model has a pistol, it can "shoot" a grenade instead.

No, they can't. You are 100% wrong. Please don't spread disinformation. The rule is "A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit", not If the model has a pistol it can shoot whatever it wants.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 drone9 wrote:
Pistol reads:

A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but it must target the closest enemy unit. [...]

Grenade reads:

Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one instead of firing any other weapon.

So the argument was that if the unit is shooting (i.e. their pistols while within 1'') they might be allowed to switch one for a grenade.

Fair enough. The answer is still no, because the grenade doesn't have the rule allowing you to fire it within 1". That rule doesn't magically go away because you own a pistol, it goes away if you want to fire the pistol.

The grenade doesn't need the rule itself, its own rules allow for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Yes, grenades can be "fired" in close combat because it falls under the "any other weapon" category. In other words, if the model has a pistol, it can "shoot" a grenade instead.

No, they can't. You are 100% wrong. Please don't spread disinformation. The rule is "A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit", not If the model has a pistol it can shoot whatever it wants.

Read the grenade rules. They are on page 180 of the rulebook. Also, that wasn't the question.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Read the grenade rules. They are on page 180 of the rulebook.

I did, at no point does it waive the 1" rule. The pistol rule does not daisy chain into it. I'll leave it at that because otherwise you'll just end up flamebaiting me and I'll get a warning.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Read the grenade rules. They are on page 180 of the rulebook.

I did, at no point does it waive the 1" rule. The pistol rule does not daisy chain into it. I'll leave it at that because otherwise you'll just end up flamebaiting me and I'll get a warning.

I'm not trying to bait you in any way, just trying to make sure the poster got his/her question answered correctly. If you get a warning, that's on you. Anybody else want to jump in on this one?

I don't agree you can throw a Grenade within an inch, but your argument is compelling! BCB is usually a RAW stickler so surprised he's vehemently against this one! It's certainly a reading that you could apply...

I agree with Gordon. RAW allows a grenade to be thrown instead of firing any other weapon. A pistol is any other weapon. You can shoot pistols if you are within 1" of an enemy unit. So, you can throw a grenade in CC, instead of shooting your pistol.

p5freak wrote:
I agree with Gordon. RAW allows a grenade to be thrown instead of firing any other weapon. A pistol is any other weapon. You can shoot pistols if you are within 1" of an enemy unit. So, you can throw a grenade in CC, instead of shooting your pistol.

You stated it better than I, and I really don't see a RAW reading around it.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I don't agree you can throw a Grenade within an inch, but your argument is compelling! BCB is usually a RAW stickler so surprised he's vehemently against this one! It's certainly a reading that you could apply...

Because RaW doesn't support throwing grenades within 1 inch. What a shock! This is the same nonsense as World Eater Sorcerers. One rule allowing something doesn't suddenly make all previous rules vanish.

The rules say you can throw a grenade instead of another weapon. The pistol rule says you can shoot a pistol. This doesn't suddenly mean you can throw a grenade while within 1 inch.

Is a pistol another weapon? We are talking in circles again. I really can't believe this hasn't come up before here but my Google fu isn't taking me anywhere useful. Anybody else want to jump into the debate?

Which rule doesnt allow me to throw a grenade in CC ? Citation please.

p5freak wrote:
Which rule doesnt allow me to throw a grenade in CC ? Citation please.

Literally 8 pages of rules.

1. Choose Unit to Shoot With
In your Shooting phase you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons. First, you must pick one of your units to shoot with. You may not pick a unit that Advanced or Fell Back this turn, or a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit.

You wanna go down the route of "My RaW has to be correct because I said so?" Let's pull out the fact you can never fire Pistols within 1" anyway because of this rule, because the Pistol rule never allows the unit to be selected. Nor does the pistol rule somehow daisy chain and allow you to throw a grenade. The rule even explicitly says you can only fire a pistol. As with the WE Sorcerer Nonsense, people are taking a special rule and then ignoring all the restrictions from previous special rules, despite the 2nd rule not actually removing any of the restrictions that the 1st rule imposed.

Your record is stuck, dude. Please stop posting that... it's like the Godwin's Law of YMDC right now...

It doesn't help what's being discussed in any way, as no one in the world would play it that way.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Your record is stuck, dude. Please stop posting that... it's like the Godwin's Law of YMDC right now...

It doesn't help what's being discussed in any way, as no one in the world would play it that way.

I sure would insist on it if my opponent insisted he could throw grenades in combat, when you can't.

But I didn't listen to my own advice and got flamebaited once again. Yay me, I'm so amazing.

So are you saying that pistols can't be fired in melee now? I'm not really sure...

Sorry, I'm not flamebaiting... just a genuine plea. So many people post it so often and it does nothing to assist anyone.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Sorry, I'm not flamebaiting... just a genuine plea. So many people post it so often and it does nothing to assist anyone.

I think He was talking about me, and I'm not really sure where he thinks I did it, but whatever.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
So are you saying that pistols can't be fired in melee now? I'm not really sure...

Yes, because of poor rule wording, GW didnt use the words unit and model properly. Its a non-issue, because anyone with a brain can figure out the way its meant to be.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/730922.page

Oh, well...okay then.

p5freak wrote:
I agree with Gordon. RAW allows a grenade to be thrown instead of firing any other weapon. A pistol is any other weapon. You can shoot pistols if you are within 1" of an enemy unit. So, you can throw a grenade in CC, instead of shooting your pistol.

From the Battle Primer

Each time a model equipped with both a Pistol and another type of ranged weapon (e.g. a Pistol and a Rapid Fire weapon) shoots, it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with all of its other weapons.

This conflicts with the grenade rule as a grenade is another type of ranged weapon so by choosing to use a grenade you are not choosing to make a pistol attack and therefore do not get around the 1" rule. To make any other interpretation opens up any kind of shooting within 1" as long as you have a pistol somewhere about your person.

All I will say further is, use common sense or we will have to get Phil Barker (google Barkerese) to write the rules and then you will be sorry

I agree that RAW would allow you to shoot it in combat, it would need to say "may throw a grenade instead of firing any other weapons" in order to deny it. Another quirk of this rule that I just thought of would be that if you had multiple (non pistol) guns on a single model you could throw a grenade and still shoot all but 1 of your guns. I will be sticking to sacrificing all weapons for a grenade and not being able to throw them in combat though.

 ZenBadger wrote:


From the Battle Primer

Each time a model equipped with both a Pistol and another type of ranged weapon (e.g. a Pistol and a Rapid Fire weapon) shoots, it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with all of its other weapons.

This conflicts with the grenade rule as a grenade is another type of ranged weapon so by choosing to use a grenade you are not choosing to make a pistol attack and therefore do not get around the 1" rule. To make any other interpretation opens up any kind of shooting within 1" as long as you have a pistol somewhere about your person.

I dont choose to throw a grenade in the first place. My first choice is to shoot with the pistol, because the rules allow it. Then i choose the grenade, because the rules allow me to throw a grenade instead of shooting with any other weapon. A pistol is any other weapon which can shoot.

To sum up:

Argument by BCB: Shooting is not allowed for units within 1’’ of an enemy unit. Only the rules for pistols explicitly grant an exception to this. Since the rules for grenades do not explicitly say so, when switching from pistol to grenade the general shooting rule takes precedence.

Argument by Gordon et al.: Grenades can be thrown instead of shooting any other weapon. A pistol qualifies as any other weapon. A pistol can be fired while within 1'' of an enemy unit. Therefor grenades can be used instead of firing a pistol while in CC.

The Pistol rule does preclude it... good spot. If you're choosing Pistols you can't fire the other weapon types.

We're back to normality :-)

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The Pistol rule does preclude it... good spot. If you're choosing Pistols you can't fire the other weapon types.

We're back to normality :-)

Indeed!

Thank you all!