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GW posted a community article by mike from NOVA open on dealing with an alpha strike if you’re going second.
Since this seems to be a hot current issue in 8th edition I was wondering 3 things:
1)How do you deal with an alpha strike by your opponent?
2)Do you think Alpha strikes should be blunted in general ruleswise
3)Are there any changes you would make to the game based on 1?

My own answers are simple
1 I hide behind LOS/transports if I know my opponent is likely going first. Since I mostly play harlequins/craftworld denial of the reserves is something I have trouble with I can usually only keep a handful of units out of range of those attacks
2. I don’t think there is a lot of blunting necessary. If units die faster the game usually goes quicker
3. I would increase the points of LOS ignoring artillery from IG because they seem utterly uncounterable even with deployment and tactics.

edit:
adding the link to the article for those that haven't read it

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/24/tactical-toolbox-going-secondgw-homepage-post-4/

1. This one is pretty simple and you hit on part of it. You hide behind LoS or keep most of your own force in reserve. I think a lot of people having issues with alpha strikes aren't playing with enough LoS terrain.

2. No. It should be left as is.

3. No.

I've honestly dropped a lot of glass cannon units as I find lowering my own alpha strike potential is worth the added resistance, from a fun perspective at least if not a tournament one.

My group also plays with what I've been told is an abnormal amount of LoS blocking terrain, which helps a lot, particularly after the flyer changes made entire lists of them less appealing.

As for changes... Hard to say. I think the biggest issue is right now they seem to put a premium on any sort of durability, while firepower itself isn't that expensive. Meaning it's easy to build lists that either sweep the enemy or crumble. It's not true across every army or unit, but it is widespread enough to look somewhat consistent.

IG needs several point increases, especially the artillery.

1. Have an army composed of units that are either hard to alpha strike away (15-man Battle Sister squads) or have multiples of the same unit so that even if I do lose a unit, I'm not crippled.

2. No, alpha strike is fine as is. I don't even see any way to change it to have a noticeable effect.

3. Nope.

Hiding behind terraib and utilizing the reserves are a universal way to tune the alpha srrike down. In addition, armies relying are benefiting from a huge number of troops can also try and spam many cheaper units to better overcole the initial losses.

Finally, you might also try to pack a bunch of very tough units within your list who would be harder to annihilate, but i personnally find it less effective since durable units are sometimes as well provided with a lesser fire power, and are not numberous enough to handle a bad roll.

But actually, these just work in anygame, even alternated activation ones.

Not a bad article. Not great, but not bad! Liked how they mentioned creating the "no deep strike" bubble, as that's something much more important that is now possible, unlike 7th's "I have just enough space for a Pod and guys, so I'm totally fine". Admittedly, the article didn't really tackle the issue of "Hmm, I just lost half my army on turn 1. I am now playing 1000 points against 2000 points."

#1 - If I know it's coming, I do a lot of what the article suggests. Keep out of line of sight. Focus on surviving, rather than fighting. Then, once they're done, look at your forces and adjust your plan to win. It doesn't have to be a great or guaranteed plan, just needs to be one. I was playing 75 power with Magnus and lost him. I felt devastated because my opponent was at full strength with a Storm Raven. Instead of quitting, I re-evaluated my position and plan and came up with something new. "If I can do X, I might win". Thankfully, the game went the full 7 turns, giving me JUST enough time to walk onto some objectives and win. Never give up!

#2 - I don't think so. The game's evolving so far that I don't think anything should be changed. For all we know, in 2 months everyone could be moaning about how their Alpha Strike lists no longer work because more players have gained ways to deal with it.

#3 - I think the player going second should gain an extra Command Point. There is a First Mover's Advantage problem going on, but an extra Command Point would probably help even it out.

 Yarium wrote:

#3 - I think the player going second should gain an extra Command Point. There is a First Mover's Advantage problem going on, but an extra Command Point would probably help even it out.

This is a great idea, I'll bring it up to the home group.

I also think 1st blood should not score during the alpha round.

Just too much weight/reward for going 1st

Why not something as simple as allowing 2nd turn players buy a stratagem that either gives a fnp to all units or a cover save.

I would be willing to spend something like 3cp to get some alpha protection.

There's alpha strike, and there's first turn advantage, and the two aren't exactly the same.

The former is a strategic concern that requires planning from the players, and from the designers varied and balanced options - and perhaps some element of diminishing returns.

The latter is a design issue that requires mitigation, which is especially challenging outside of planned asymmetric scenarios.

I'm going to be experimenting with a solution whereby, as opposed to the second player getting to steal the entire first turn, each of their units gets to take a 'turn zero' on a roll of a six. Warlord adds two, and a command point can be spent to add two to a roll as well.

Most games don't utilize enough LOS blocking terrain to begin with. Of course alpha striking will be heinous in those games. There will always be someone shooting first. LOS blocking terrain needs to be a priority in the game now to give tactical decisions to both sides.

The biggest problem with alpha strike lists is that you need to invest a lot of time in terrain building to be able to counter it. Most people prefer to paint their models instead of terrain, so they dont even bother.

Another problem with terrain is that there are no rules about how a 'balanced' battlefield should be set up because that is a really complex thing to do. When you set up too much terrain, you IG opponent will complain about how he lost because he was at disadvantage, but if you don't set up enough the terrain was totally fine ;-)
But I think it is totally fine that a list that only incorporates one concept can be punished by certain circumstances like terrain.


But with enough terrain, alpha strike is not that much of a problem:
Heavy weapons can be fired after moving even by infantry with a rather small penalty, so you can hide your units from some/most enemy units and when it's your turn, you can move them to a position where they can shoot the enemy.
Deep Strike is (more or less) equally good for all armies.
Transport are arguably better (but a lot more expensive) and you can put more than one unit inside them to protect them from turn 1 fire. Because of the new heavy weapons rule, disembarking doesnt make units fire snapshots, so they can still be used rather effectively if the transport survives.

I am aware this reduces the number possibilities you can build effective lists, but if you change the core rules, other concepts will be the strongest and thus other tactics will be necessary and reduce your possibilities, so I think the game (but not all of its elements) is fine the way it is.


Some things like being able to pop smoke launchers before turn 1 might be nice, but not necessary.

First turn blood works fine.

Alpha strike is about building cumulative advantage. Cumulative advantage is process of collecting smaller advantages to make a larger advantage. For instance if you and an opponent are evenly matched, and you kill 10% (200 points in an average game) of his army on your first turn he he only has 1800 points to answer you with. If he responds in kind, you'll have a 20 point advantage, if this continues over the course of the game the points advantage for going first could end up being equivalent to one opponent starting with hundreds of extra points in his list.

Cumulative advantage isn't inherently bad, it's even desirable and a hallmark of games where skill is a deciding factor, take chess for instance. Where it is undesirable is when it's arbitrarily decided who gets the opportunity for cumulative advantage, like going first in IGYG games. Chess sidesteps this by not giving an inherent advantage to going first because the pieces can not interact on the first turn.. In a system that allows first turn interactions there has to be another balance mechanism, Go has a good example of this. Go uses Komi to balance having the first turn by giving a flat points advantage for the second player. 40k deals with this by separating the deployment zones by a distance of about the average weapon range, which reduces the amount of damage that can be done on the first turn. For most games of 40k that's enough to keep first turn advantage to a dull roar.

With the basics out of the way, the problem with alpha strike is really two problems, lack of LoS blocking terrain, and list structured to try to get around the first turn protections put into place by having deployment zones so far out. The ITC rules do a good job of addressing the first issue with the rule about first floor of area terrain blocking LoS. In matches where there is not enough LOS blocking terrain you'll have the army with the first turn carving out a huge chunk out of their opponents army from the safety of their deployment zone. The second is things like first turn charge armies and deep strike armies, that seek to gain immediate advantage over their opponent before they can react. This is a more prickly problem, as it often relies on your opponents Comp/deployment to pull off, and as such can be countered.

With all of that said, first turn is an advantage in most cases, so a roll to see who goes first gives an arbitrary advantage to one player or another. Instead I would suggest a bidding game using CP to determine first player. Each Player writes down the number of CP they would be willing to pay to go first, and the person with the highest number pays that many CP and goes first. It makes who goes first a matter of planning and skill, and if planning and skill give one player an advantage then I'm all for it.

 Grimgold wrote:
Alpha strike is about building cumulative advantage. Cumulative advantage is process of collecting smaller advantages to make a larger advantage. For instance if you and an opponent are evenly matched, and you kill 10% (200 points in an average game) of his army on your first turn he he only has 1800 points to answer you with. If he responds in kind, you'll have a 20 point advantage, if this continues over the course of the game the points advantage for going first could end up being equivalent to one opponent starting with hundreds of extra points in his list.

Cumulative advantage isn't inherently bad, it's even desirable and a hallmark of games where skill is a deciding factor, take chess for instance. Where it is undesirable is when it's arbitrarily decided who gets the opportunity for cumulative advantage, like going first in IGYG games. Chess sidesteps this by not giving an inherent advantage to going first because the pieces can not interact on the first turn.. In a system that allows first turn interactions there has to be another balance mechanism, Go has a good example of this. Go uses Komi to balance having the first turn by giving a flat points advantage for the second player. 40k deals with this by separating the deployment zones by a distance of about the average weapon range, which reduces the amount of damage that can be done on the first turn. For most games of 40k that's enough to keep first turn advantage to a dull roar.

I just had to butt in and say that while Chess doesn't allow first turn interaction, it's still considered an incredible boon to the point that Chess masters write literature about how to counter White advantage.

1: Start in Transports, start in reserve, put important things out of reach, or just go first.

2: Sort of, but not really.

3: Charge less for real toughness, charge way more for Deep Strike.


Deep Strike is still the ultimate ability. It is both 100% protective and is one of the key abilities in making an alpha strike insanely powerful. It needs to be more than 3ppm.

Vanguard is a little cheap at 1ppm. It facilitates alpha strikes, but doesn't defend against them.

Unfortunately, if the major thing in your tabletop miniature game is to have miniatures not on the tabletop, then you have issues.

I think 8th edition would benefit a lot from a rule that simply said no units can come onto the table from reserve in the first players first turn. That would severely limit first turn alpha strike strategies that use deep strike to perfectly position assasination units on turn zero, and it might actually incentivize some lists to want to go second which would be refreshing. And on the first players first turn, they just deployed, so there is no reason for unit that was just set up in reserves to need to come onto the board anyway, from a flavor perspective.

Audustum wrote:


I just had to butt in and say that while Chess doesn't allow first turn interaction, it's still considered an incredible boon to the point that Chess masters write literature about how to counter White advantage.

That isn't universally regarded as true, several grandmasters have spoke out against the conventional wisdom. Even if we took the the numbers as they are (without checking for extenuating circumstances), it's a difference of around 4% or so, which is big for a perfect balance game but wouldn't even register as a bump in 40k. Still it's a fascinating topic, along with why the number of draws has been going up.

I think LOS terrain is definitely the main key to surviving the first turn, and so is not just having a few elite units you rely on surviving to win the game. You also have to play into the strengths of your faction / codex when you are writing your lists.

For example, I've found devastators to be less effective than predators unless i am playing Ravenguard (for their CT) or Imperial Fists (for their warlord trait), as some armies have ways to do a lot of long range damage to them (fliers with quad heavy bolters and whatnot have been especially annoying). My solution is to either bring a CT or warlord trait that adds durability (RG and IF), buy them a rhino, or use predators instead. You have to think about these things and plan accordingly.

That being said, if i could change anything, i think i would get rid of indirect fire weapons, or at least make their BS suffer if they can't see their targets. I would also probably bring back the go to ground mechanic, probably something like "increase cover save by 1 but hit on -1 next turn" to let infantry survive a bit better. Lastly i would have cover be in terrain for infantry, and just 50% for everything else.

jcd386 wrote:
I think LOS terrain is definitely the main key to surviving the first turn, and so is not just having a few elite units you rely on surviving to win the game. You also have to play into the strengths of your faction / codex when you are writing your lists.

For example, I've found devastators to be less effective than predators unless i am playing Ravenguard (for their CT) or Imperial Fists (for their warlord trait), as some armies have ways to do a lot of long range damage to them (fliers with quad heavy bolters and whatnot have been especially annoying). My solution is to either bring a CT or warlord trait that adds durability (RG and IF), buy them a rhino, or use predators instead. You have to think about these things and plan accordingly.

That being said, if i could change anything, i think i would get rid of indirect fire weapons, or at least make their BS suffer if they can't see their targets. I would also probably bring back the go to ground mechanic, probably something like "increase cover save by 1 but hit on -1 next turn" to let infantry survive a bit better. Lastly i would have cover be in terrain for infantry, and just 50% for everything else.

LoS blocking terrain does nothing.

Good alpha strikes ignore it. Artillery also isn't the leading factor in alpha-strikes, at least from my experience. It tends to be Deep Strikers, since DS is insanely powerful, or fast units that rush across the board [Dominions, Deceiver, etc.]

TRANSPORTS and delayed deployment are both really good ways to negate alpha strike. Being faster than you opponent helps too.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
1: Start in Transports.

You know, I'm starting to think that alpha strike is the reason so many transports in the game cost so little. Like, a Rhino costs barely more than a naked 5-man squad and gives you twice the number of wounds, plus those wounds are way tougher. You have almost no real reason not to start in that Rhino if you can help it, as it really does help you survive SO much more punishment!

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


LoS blocking terrain does nothing.

Good alpha strikes ignore it. Artillery also isn't the leading factor in alpha-strikes, at least from my experience. It tends to be Deep Strikers, since DS is insanely powerful, or fast units that rush across the board [Dominions, Deceiver, etc.]

LOS blocking terrain does a lot, but like most preventative measures it's often hard to notice, and few people play with the ITC terrain rules. As for Deep strike, it has it's risks, since you can only deep strike half your army you risk losing local concentration, and deep strike units tend to be expensive. Obliterators are a perfect example, great alpha strike potential, but to getting their points back can be challenging. The true alpha strike abusers are flyers, because you can't hide from them and you can't screen them away from your valuable units. Add in some deep striking rerolls like robby G or a chapter master to your flyers and you have the reasons the first few GTs were effed.

I like that GW is now so in touch with the community that they noticed that half the player base is unable to adapt to rules changes and need to hold their hand and tell them what to do.

The good alpha strike armies consist of low drops, cheap and disposable deepstrikers (scions, ect), fliers and 48+ inch massed bombardment or lascannon/ML equivlents with some sort of re-roll hits and wounds (bobby G and others).

While Terrain is important.. and really what terrain are we talking about: RUINS. Most of the above units go around or ignore the cover. (DS,Fliers and Indirect firing) The only terrain of consequence is Ruins.. and most tables will only have a few pieces of it.

Hills and interviening units don't give cover anymore. Craters only infantry and that's if the entire unit is in it.

Cover save rolls were a guarantee in previous editions... now AP modifiers can eat right through that save and not even allow it at all.

Null deploy is gone for the most part.

Pin point accuracy of deep strike.

Night fight is dead

These things make Alpha strike so very very powerful... and there is little a player can do to mitigate it unless maybe playing on a city scape board with tons of ruins. So what needs to be done.

IMHO every player needs to have access some sort of Army wide Alpha strike protection: FNP, cover, - hit modifiers.

Either make them purchasable through CPs or give each army an army wide version of these I dodnt know.

I would be open to having some sort of "going second army reaction rule" which would allow players to pop smokes on vehicals, allow infantry a version of "go to ground". This would only be available to the player going second.

Something should be done... because I have seen way to many games be over by turn 1 alpha strikes.

1. Playing with ITC, first-floor blocks LOS rules is critical, and should be a regular part of the game.
2. Some units are just too strong. Stormravens. If you wanted a fair cost for ravens, they would be 0-1 or add 100 points for each additional unit. 2 stormravens are way more than double the strength of 1 stormraven.

I guess what bothers me about it is that so little of GW terrain blocks LOS. Most of the buildings have holes in the walls or are not very wide so an opponent can walk into LOS very easily. Also, lets say I start with my hammerhead behind some big terrain and it manages to prevent the enemy from shooting it turn 1, that's great, now I need to move out and take a -1 to shoot the exposed enemy on turn 2. Turn 3 the unit I damaged will maybe be hurt and the fight can go on balanced but it still feels odd to be punished for being tactical. It's like if P1 doesn't get it's advantage, P2 will get disadvantaged for being first to shoot (specifically heavy weapons, unless they've got machine spirits cuz humans can't have drawbacks).

I haven't lost a single game of 8th with my Scions, conscripts, and artillery. Even if I go second. However, everyone else who goes second in my meta is losing, at an almost 100% rate. It's not an issue of terrain. Stuff is too "killy" and not enough "tanky"

 GreaterGood? wrote:
I haven't lost a single game of 8th with my Scions, conscripts, and artillery. Even if I go second. However, everyone else who goes second in my meta is losing, at an almost 100% rate. It's not an issue of terrain. Stuff is too "killy" and not enough "tanky"

Conversely I haven't yet lost to scions, conscript's and artillery in 8th, but I have gone first every time.