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The only other Transport that comes close in fire power is the Wave Serpent, but it's grossly over costed.

Its definitely not overcosted. Its well priced able to provide good fire power and a real transport option when compared with a steel coffin like a Razorback.

Another fantastic transport is the Trojan, but this time it's not for firepower but rather for support.

The Imperial Guard have a real problem with their superheavy tanks missing a lot (due to BS4+ and the -1 from moving), but for 100 (well, 98) points you get a whole 'nother unit, gun included, and you get re-rolls on the superheavy's shooting attacks. Essentially think of it as 100 pts more on the cost of the superheavy for re-rolls, 10 wounds (at admittedly T7), 2 targets.

The fact that it can transport 6 infantry is just icing on the cake, as it were.

hobojebus wrote:
But transports once they've delivered cargo become pretty useless unless your able to park it on an uncontested objective.

And really with the AP change marines make it on foot just fine.

I have 4 rhinos I'll never use and a drop pod destined to be forgotten.

Rhinos are amazing for multi-charging units and generally blocking LOS and movement.

My Sisters lists are fully loaded in transports.

Transports are almost essential for some armies and basically worthless for others.


Transport tanks can be amazing. They offer a layer of protection for the troops inside, they can engage in melee to block overwatch and lock exposed larger tanks in combat, and the frequently have decent firepower of their own. They are, in almost every case, though, flat out worse than Deep Strike.

There are a few list types that can get away without transports.

Imperial guard, for instance, because they're a gunline by in large, with some deep strike peppered in.

Tau, for instance, because they're primarily deep strike with very fast movement anyway, drones have assault weapons so they're also super mobile.

Any army that pays points for melee strength needs transports IMHO, along with any close-range shooting army.

The 50% boots on the ground requirement means you need to be prepared to go second. if you go second against an army with Wyverns/Manticores, and your guys aren't in transports, or deep strike, they'll get erased.

Long story short: In my opinion, for most armies, transports are an absolute necessity. The armies that don't need transports are very strong at what they do, and either ignore movement by being a gunline or ignore movement by being incredibly fast & having deep strike.

In my army, I need transports to survive. They give me a very solid beta-strike, to follow the alpha strike. Move forward, deep strike, do as much damage as possible. Next turn, get out of transports, and keep fighting. Or, in most cases, get out of the remaining transports. because they die.

I'm kind of fond of my Chimera and its inhabitants: the variable response task force.

They are a mean ball of violence that consist of a melta command squad, a special weapon squad with flamers and/or demo charges and a single platoon commander. These weapons work better when they disembark as opposed to deep striking.

Basically, the special weapon squad (and the Chimera, should it survive) clear troopers out of the way so the melta guys can kill a hard and expensive target or two. The commander supports, of course.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Aye. That twin-Assault Cannon tastes so good, but it's high in Cholesterol, and will clog your heart if you aren't careful.

To that end, Wave Serpents are still pretty bad-ass. And Necron Ghost Arcs - the repair barges? Are decent as well.


EDIT: I stand by the Ghost Arcs being decent. You can drop a squad of Warriors off at close range, and then dump a half-a-million shots into something.

you can drop off 20 shots, plus the 20 from the ark, but thats 10 warriors that will die straight away. They're okay when buffing 20 warriors, but then they cant ride in it...

 Tamwulf wrote:
I'd postulate that the best transport in the game right now is the Razorback. Not for it's transport capabilities (only six Space Marines), but it's weapon options. Specifically, the twin linked lascannons and assault cannons. The squad "tax" of five Space Marines is only 65 points for a Plane Jane squad, but there is nothing stopping you from giving them a missile launcher.

This keeps popping up and it seems like a very common misunderstanding, but you don't need a Tac Squad to "unlock" a Razorback. One transport is unlocked for every other type of unit in your army. You could by a Captain and unlock a Transport. You could buy a Predator and unlock a Razorback.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
Aye. That twin-Assault Cannon tastes so good, but it's high in Cholesterol, and will clog your heart if you aren't careful.

To that end, Wave Serpents are still pretty bad-ass. And Necron Ghost Arcs - the repair barges? Are decent as well.


EDIT: I stand by the Ghost Arcs being decent. You can drop a squad of Warriors off at close range, and then dump a half-a-million shots into something.

The Serpent is the best overall transport in the game.
The Razorback szenario with Guilliman takes Razorbacks as shooty units only.

The Sisters Retributer and Immolator might have an issue with that opinion.

The retributer carries 10 models, has 6 fire points, 2 heavy flamers, and has close combat ability. (Not to mention the awesome profile.)
The immolator carries 6 models, has firepower that can kill most vehicles (twin multi-melta) or hoards (longer range twin heavy flamer). Also has a great profile.

Sisters take transports, period. Go look at tactics, nearly all of them are doms in retributers or immolators. (We argue about which to use and when lol.)

The CSM havoc launcher on a rhino is a pretty nice combo for back line use.

 Marmatag wrote:

Any army that pays points for melee strength needs transports IMHO, along with any close-range shooting army.

So genestealers and boyz all needs to go in transports?

Most of my armies uses Transport

Harlequins minimum of 5
DE 4-9
Eldar 3-4
SoB (unless im AoF spam GT cheese list 5-7)
CSM Khorn 3-4

The only army that does is Nids

 Klowny wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
Aye. That twin-Assault Cannon tastes so good, but it's high in Cholesterol, and will clog your heart if you aren't careful.

To that end, Wave Serpents are still pretty bad-ass. And Necron Ghost Arcs - the repair barges? Are decent as well.


EDIT: I stand by the Ghost Arcs being decent. You can drop a squad of Warriors off at close range, and then dump a half-a-million shots into something.

you can drop off 20 shots, plus the 20 from the ark, but thats 10 warriors that will die straight away. They're okay when buffing 20 warriors, but then they cant ride in it...

You can do both.

Plus, nothing wipes out 10 Warriors that doesn't cost half-an-army's worth of points. So you put some hurt on something, lose a squad, and repeat. Plus, later on, you can ferry duders around to score objectives. They're not bad. They're part of a bigger package is all.

And to the Sisters players... I've never seen Sisters in real life. So far as I know, they're an internet meme-thing like Squats. Something old people gripe about when the weather is miserable. They're a hoax, like aliens or personal hygiene.

I'm using six Razorbacks and one Drop Pod in my DA list, but that's purely for a gunline and late-game objective grabbing. My UM list has only a Stormraven (technically a transport) and nothing else with a transport capacity.

Chimeras are so bad. Their main guns fail to hit anything because between heavy, wound brackets and bs4, if you use them as a transport and actually move, they just can't hit anything.

My first few games have consisted of my guys getting blown away as they footslog across the table, while the odd unit in my only Rhino actually accomplishes stuff. I don't think we're in full on 5th edition metal boxes mode, but they're still important for getting around.

 Brother SRM wrote:
My first few games have consisted of my guys getting blown away as they footslog across the table, while the odd unit in my only Rhino actually accomplishes stuff. I don't think we're in full on 5th edition metal boxes mode, but they're still important for getting around.

Indeed, footslogging is a slow way to die.
With Rhino you can make the Rhino rush move, having one Rhino in front and launching smoke while the one behind gets cover. Then in the next turn, the Rhino behind moves up front and launches smoke with the other Rhino behind getting cover.

 Brother SRM wrote:
My first few games have consisted of my guys getting blown away as they footslog across the table, while the odd unit in my only Rhino actually accomplishes stuff. I don't think we're in full on 5th edition metal boxes mode, but they're still important for getting around.

If it needs a transport it's bad 9/10 times because using transports for transportation is bad.

Imma just chill here while I'm painting my second trygon. All this talk about transportation is making me all tingly

 Mezmorki wrote:
Speaking of devastators, why would you ever take them over say a predator? 5 devastators have 5 wounds (instead of 11), 4 toughness (instead of 7). They can only move 6" instead of up to 12". When they take casualties they immediately lose a large part of their firepower. Oh, and the predator isn't that much more expensive either.

Devastators benefit from Chapter Tactics.
Devastators benefit from Ancients.
The Sergeant still provides his signum rule, letting one heavy weapon fire at BS2+.
Devastators can be placed in ruins and benefit from cover WAY easier than a Predator, so you'll always have a 2+ instead of the 3+.
You can buy 5 additional hitpoints that come with regular boltguns, and you get to pick which models die - although the squad becomes more expensive than the Predator at this point.
Devastators don't care about multiwound hits. 5 unsaved Lascannon wounds will kill a Predator easily while a full Dev Squad still has all of the anti-tank firepower.

I'm not saying Devastators are superior, but there're many things you didn't consider.

Taking a look at the transports, the cost policy is not that clear. Though most of their points are just paid for their staying power, as it is for all vehicles/MC.
Razorback is 65 with 6 tc.
Rhino is 70 points with the auto-repair rule and 10 transport capacity. Is the auto-repair 5 points? Or is it 1 point and 1 for every point of tc?
Taurox Prime 60 points has also 10 tc but only for scions and commissars. It hits at 3+.
Taurox with 55 points and 10 tc. Hitting only at 4+, so hitting at 3+ instead of 4+ is worth 5 points. With bs 4+ and only T6 but +4 tc it seems with 10 points less than the Razorback quite appropriate.
Chimera is 75 (incl. Lasgun array.) with 12 tc. As you can use that Array only when units are embarked it is worth zero, and only hitting at 4+, i say the chimera is 15 points too expensive. Furthermore it it lacks the fire point, which guard hws need so much.

Just don´t think at the Valkyrie or even Vendetta. As AM you go most time at last. The enemy will just blow it away. Especially when facing a Razorback-Fortress that includes Laserbacks and Guilliman or a Chaptermaster and Lieutenant.


Yes the best transport and points effective-wise may be even the best vehicle is the Razorback. SM don´t even have to pay a tactical squad tax they could take instead useful devastators or scouts (for even better screening through better deployment).
Even the Taurox Prime can only compete with the razorback vs. horde, with the Taurox Missile Pod and the way overpriced autocannon it can´t compete with neither the TLLC nor the TLAC.

The change of the of twin-linked rule from 2nd to 3rd was just stupid. It is double the guns so you should get double the shots for double the price.
But on that the TLAC has an advantage. A single assault cannon is 21 points, the TL version is only 35, why? A discount of 7 points. Yes it is little looking at 2000 points but still. A TLAC for 42 points would be at least more appropriate and also following the rules all others are following. Or is there any other TL weapon that is cheaper than 2 single versions?

Firefox1 wrote:
But on that the TLAC has an advantage. A single assault cannon is 21 points, the TL version is only 35, why? A discount of 7 points. Yes it is little looking at 2000 points but still. A TLAC for 42 points would be at least more appropriate and also following the rules all others are following. Or is there any other TL weapon that is cheaper than 2 single versions?

From Codex Space Marines:
Twin Heavy Plasma cannons save almost the entire second weapon, 34 to 30 points. But it's only available to a single model, so I assume that most of the price went into the Stormraven base price - stupid as that may be (as it makes the other options unattractive)
Lascannon & Twin Plasmagun saves 6 points on the plasmaguns
Twin Heavy Bolter saves 3 points, but is only half the price
Twin Heavy Flamer, Twin Lascannon, Twin Multi-Melta, Typhoon Missile Launchers save nothing
Hurricane Bolters are also pretty cheap compared to the regular Stormbolter, 3x the firepower for only twice the price.

From the FW Astartes Index:
Twin Magna-melta save 20 points, but that's at more than 3x the price of a TAC
Quad Heavy bolters save nothing over the Twin Heavy Bolter, even though the Twin one saves 3 points over the regular.
Quad Lascannons on the other hand save a full 20 points or 5 points per lascannon

Firefox1 wrote:
Taking a look at the transports, the cost policy is not that clear. Though most of their points are just paid for their staying power, as it is for all vehicles/MC.
Razorback is 65 with 6 tc.
Rhino is 70 points with the auto-repair rule and 10 transport capacity. Is the auto-repair 5 points? Or is it 1 point and 1 for every point of tc?
Taurox Prime 60 points has also 10 tc but only for scions and commissars. It hits at 3+.
Taurox with 55 points and 10 tc. Hitting only at 4+, so hitting at 3+ instead of 4+ is worth 5 points. With bs 4+ and only T6 but +4 tc it seems with 10 points less than the Razorback quite appropriate.
Chimera is 75 (incl. Lasgun array.) with 12 tc. As you can use that Array only when units are embarked it is worth zero, and only hitting at 4+, i say the chimera is 15 points too expensive. Furthermore it it lacks the fire point, which guard hws need so much.

Trukk with 82pts (88 for Rokkit or 91 with Wreckin Ball) and 12 TC. Hitting on 5+ It has a 4+ save, T6 and 10 wounds with Ramshackle which is a slightly better version of the Rhinos Auto-repair. If the Chimera is 15pts over priced this thing is probably 30+pts over priced. Honestly even if it was dropped to 52pts I wouldn't use it, it needs to be down around the 40s before it makes any kind of sense to field it in the numbers we saw the last few editions with speed freak lists.

Battlewagon with 161pts and 20TC hitting on 5s with T7 and 4+ save for 16wounds, It does have a special rule "Mobile Fortress" which does exactly nothing. If a Rhino is 70pts with a special rule that has a purpose, better armor save, 10wounds and better ballistic skill then this thing should be 110 at the absolute most, Probably closer to 100. If we use the assumption that 1TC is 1pt then this thing is paying (Currently) 91pts more then a rhino for 10 more TC, 6 more wounds and a plethora of ranged weapon options that nobody takes because they are heavily over priced.

I stopped using chimeras once they got rid of the amphibious rule, that was the final straw!

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
I stopped using chimeras once they got rid of the amphibious rule, that was the final straw!

Indeed, without the amphibious rule Chimerae are almost useless.

Yes, my Guard has stopped using the Chimera as it dies quickly and deep striking stormtroopers are much better. I used one (Chimera) in my two first battles and have not in the four since. The high cost is the main reason they have stopped being fielded.

Now the Wave Serpent, two were in my Eldar list for the battle I have fought, despite the high cost. As they are better than the Falcon and other Eldar tanks and the low toughness and high cost of Aspect Warriors means you need them, one was destroyed in the first round, but the Aspect Warriors bailed out without loss (only 5 models anyway).

Ork Truks are dying as quickly as my Chimeras and usually are just target magnets for the first turn...it does not even take more than a couple of hits to take them out.

My two cents,

CB

Indeed, I'm bringing transports (Trojans) and not even putting anything in them, because deep striking is just so much more useful.

There are really two things I like to do with Rhinos in my Thousand Sons army. First is I put 10 Tzannigors in a Rhino. This is only 142 points. So I can get the Tzannigors to their target in one piece, and more importantly use the Rhino to absorb the overwatch, which is particularly deadly against Tzannigors as they only have the 5++ save. This has worked pretty well. Also it is so cheap that if the enemy concentrates fire on it and kills the Rhino and some Tzannigors, who cares, those guys are here to die anyway and that means the enemy was not shooting at my more important units.

Second, sometimes I like to bring an empty Rhino, deploy it in the middle and just charge it right at the enemy. The purpose is that it is only 72 points for the Rhino and if it advances it will be really close to most enemies. So, my opponent needs to either direct some shooting at it, which means they are not shoot other units, or ignore it, and let me charge it where I want. If they let me charge it I usually try to get to shooty infantry/vehicles. The goal is not to kill them, but tie them up. For 72 points even tying up a shooty unit for one turn can mean the difference if it allows my other units to full fill their jobs.

I still think transports are a bit over priced however.

I'm just getting back into the game after 15 years off so please excuse any rust and or ignorance. I think in the case of SMs, Rhinos were so bad in the past, people adapted to alternatives thus the lack of them in lists. Now with 8th, they seem to be a much stronger unit. Once players start exploiting their strengths, there should be a resurgence in lists.

Rhinos are great, imo, but marines have nothing worthwhile to put in them.

The only transports I have are a chimera (magnetised - very glad I did so I can swap the multi laser to a heavy bolter as they are much better this edition) and a vendetta. I am yet to use either to carry troops even though I have used them in games many times.