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 pizzaguardian wrote:
I
To be honest, it is apples to oranges for x-wing vs 40k. My issue is FFG 's business plan. You HAVE to keep up with every release for x-wing, not in knowledge but in cash. That is not the same for 40k.

This is the same for 40k
maybe it changes with 8th, but now it does not seem to be the cade
if you want to keep up with the tournament scene you have to constantly purchase rules and models
proxy are allowed but WYSIWYG is a thing

FFG does many things right and Star Wars appears to go strong as a universe to keep pumping out games.

That said, I think the success they have seen is by creating each iteration of game so it does not compete with the other: it gives a very different experience and segment of the universe.

This new offering is too close to the Imperial Assault scale of hero / squad combat both in model count and physical size.
Going to a true 28mm (not the heroic 32mm) is good if you want to focus on lots of troops, 15mm if you want more vehicles and buildings.

I think it is a bit better to follow a standard scale unless they want to try to be the sole provider of terrain supply, then as a business decision it makes "sense".

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
There's a few squad builder sites out there, and the X-Wing wikia site. One assumes that they have FFG's tacit approval, since they're still going.

Dials are trickier; you can easily find the allowed manoeuvres for each ship in the table format like you get in the blister packaging, but you'd need to make your own dials.

The fact that you can get the rules on unofficial sites for free is hardly a plus point vs. 40K since the same is true...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Yeah, proxy models, up until recently, and quite possibly going forward, you're still going to need a fortune in books to even know what you're doing with your drinks cans and bottle tops. (Which, incidentally, one could also do for X Wing, without spending a penny on rules.)

What is the legitimate source for obtaining the info on the x-wing cards, movement dials and movement templates for free?

I've seen people use homemade dials, cardboard and brass pins with manoeuvres drawn on and all. Especially when the dial is spoiled before the release.

You can purchase movement templates from a number of third party sellers in beautiful acrylic... for a lot more than a starter set would set you back, so it's not quite price that is holding you back. You can make your own dice using blanks available at any FLGS, and you could even print your own version of a damage deck on cardstock. Again, if you add all those costs of cheapness, you'll find you're often paying more than a starter set. The rules are free on their website.

You didn't answer the question. There isn't a legitimate source for the info on most of the dials or most of the cards. There are unofficial sources but the same is true for every other system.

In all honesty I believe it can but FFG really need to conqour the following steps:

1) FFG templates: These need to go, but since its been established that they won't they need to make something interesting with them. Wargamers and not board gamers so please don't lump us in the same group.

2) Painfully long release cycles: We as wargamers have been brought up to expect releases continuous for the games we play. 40k has a new release every week. KM do a release every month, Etc. What made me bored of IA was that I had to wait 3 months after the first preview to get the minis. If FFG want this to work then they need to be RAPID with their releases to keep an audience interested. Again we are not as patient as Board Gamers and we should learn from the mistakes of Spartan Games, but this leads to my next point...

3) The Clone Wars: We are now reaching the times where a younger generation who grew up with The Clone Wars are now reaching young adaulthood. They remember their films just as much as people who grew up with the GCW do. This audience is a gold nugget of opportunity for their target audiences but provides plenty of variety to what The GCW does not. Before the first area that I gamed at closed, it used to host forghtnightly Armada tournaments and usually out of 8 players, two would be Rebels. The rest were Empire because who can't resist Imperial Star Destroyers? The same appeared for IA, and although there are a variety of aliens for Scum and Rebels, no one could resist legions of Stormtroopers with Darth Vader. The Clone Wars at least can provide for a fresh market with more variety with people adopting clone armies and Droid armies who have a variety of models styles and armour to keep them entertained with flavorsome characters such as General Grevious and Mace Windu to name a few. Whilst I agree they should build upon the GCW and Rouge One for the matter first so that they don't stick their fingers in too many pies, they should consider these a lot more than the new films being released as not many really care for them.

I do doubt they will do this but if by the off chance they do then I think it has a long-term life cycle ahead of itself.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

You didn't answer the question. There isn't a legitimate source for the info on most of the dials or most of the cards.

official promotion pictures, you don't need to buy anything if you are a causal player

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

Mitochondria wrote:
Spent $125 on X-Wing in the last 30 days.

Spent $0 on 40k in the 30 days.

Spent £105 on AoS in the last week.

Spent £0.00 on X-Wing. Ever.

So what's your point?

I spent $0 on both in the last 30 days. I guess that means I'm crowned King Internet, 1st of his line.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Yeah, proxy models, up until recently, and quite possibly going forward, you're still going to need a fortune in books to even know what you're doing with your drinks cans and bottle tops. (Which, incidentally, one could also do for X Wing, without spending a penny on rules.)

What is the legitimate source for obtaining the info on the x-wing cards, movement dials and movement templates for free?

Well there are a lot of free list building websites and apps which have all of that information, but it's useless without the actual cards, templates, and movement dials in tournament play.

And even outside tournament play, you'd still need at least the maneuver templates, dials, and asteroids to play the game(plus the actual ships).

Daft question, but why is everyone insisting on prepaints being the proverbial rocket ship that'll get strapped to Legion's back and overtake 40k?

A Star Wars prepaint game already existed over a decade ago, made by Wizkids (a company who could eat GW for breakfast if it wanted to) and it gained a little traction, but was never really enough to topple the GW behemoth. Now, admittedly it was a somewhat collectable game, but it ticked all of the boxes that seem to have been mentioned in this thread.
It was available in bookshops, it was prepainted. It was fething Star Wars. Yet it has faded into obscurity while 40k endures.

Ruin wrote:
Daft question, but why is everyone insisting on prepaints being the proverbial rocket ship that'll get strapped to Legion's back and overtake 40k?

A Star Wars prepaint game already existed over a decade ago, made by Wizkids (a company who could eat GW for breakfast if it wanted to) and it gained a little traction, but was never really enough to topple the GW behemoth. Now, admittedly it was a somewhat collectable game, but it ticked all of the boxes that seem to have been mentioned in this thread.
It was available in bookshops, it was prepainted. It was fething Star Wars. Yet it has faded into obscurity while 40k endures.

Yeah. This is never going to take the spot of 40k. Nothing will ever take the spot 40k once occupied(maybe not even new 40k).

GW has definitely fallen and though they have turned their game around 180, they will never regain their market dominance. There are too many competing wargames now for that to happen. Legion will, at best, just take a spot alongside Warhammer, Warmachine, Infinity, and Flames of War.

The free spot is organised SciFi Skirmish tournament game
the same spot WM/H took from Warhammer

That's sort of what Infinity's niche is. It's played pretty hardcore competitively and is pretty organized in that respect. It's not a full scale battle game and is definitely a skirmish game unlike 40k

The two games are on different paths; Legions won't overtake 40K, any more than WotC's Star Wars minis overtook 40K or IA overtook 40K.

The bickering about prepaints, factions and even the breadth of units themselves, are as Tarkin once said, "pointless". 40K Horus Heresy is all about marines vs. marines and you can play either GW's or FFG's game as frugally or stupidly expensively as you want. Most people will seek some middle ground - they'll pick up what they want and leave the rest at the curb.

I believe overall, the two scratch a very different itch. 40K is sort of the generic version of sci-fi, it has a little bit of every sort of sci-fi trope thrown in - bits of Alien, Dune, Starship Troopers, etc. Legions is specific to Star Wars and has a very, very narrow scope - its recreating the Galactic Civil War; and that's it.

Further, I believe Legions will likely be more Necromunda/Shadow Wars in size than the army sizes of current 40K. I dare say games of Legion probably won't be bigger than what you would expect to see for 2E 40K.

 Grey Templar wrote:
That's sort of what Infinity's niche is. It's played pretty hardcore competitively and is pretty organized in that respect. It's not a full scale battle game and is definitely a skirmish game unlike 40k

40k is still a Skirmish, that's why it works not well with a lot of models
And I have never seen Infinity tournaments here, although we have a very active community

From the size Legion is somewhere between Infinity and 40k and more like Warpath FireFight.

Ruin wrote:
Daft question, but why is everyone insisting on prepaints being the proverbial rocket ship that'll get strapped to Legion's back and overtake 40k?

A Star Wars prepaint game already existed over a decade ago, made by Wizkids (a company who could eat GW for breakfast if it wanted to) and it gained a little traction, but was never really enough to topple the GW behemoth. Now, admittedly it was a somewhat collectable game, but it ticked all of the boxes that seem to have been mentioned in this thread.
It was available in bookshops, it was prepainted. It was fething Star Wars. Yet it has faded into obscurity while 40k endures.

My point on the pre-painted was more that I don't even think Legion will hit the popularity of X-Wing, let alone endanger 40k to any great degree, due to the fact that X-Wings pre-painted miniatures really lowered the accessibility level of the game and allowed gamers who would have been reticent to start building/painting new forces for an entirely different game a way to have the best of both worlds. Legion doesn't appear to be taking that approach and I believe, just like Runewars, it will flop because FFG isn't considering one of the primary reasons X-Wing was such a financial success for them.

Ruin wrote:
Daft question, but why is everyone insisting on prepaints being the proverbial rocket ship that'll get strapped to Legion's back and overtake 40k?

A Star Wars prepaint game already existed over a decade ago, made by Wizkids (a company who could eat GW for breakfast if it wanted to) and it gained a little traction, but was never really enough to topple the GW behemoth. Now, admittedly it was a somewhat collectable game, but it ticked all of the boxes that seem to have been mentioned in this thread.
It was available in bookshops, it was prepainted. It was fething Star Wars. Yet it has faded into obscurity while 40k endures.

They are not. This game is not going to be prepaints. People are talking about the game being able to stand up with 40K. The more I dig, it is like that other cat said. It will be a in-between game. not for over 100 minis, but not less then 50 or so.

"With thirty-three unpainted and easily assembled miniatures, and all the cards, movement tools, tokens, and terrain that you need for battle, the Star Wars: Legion Core Set is the perfect way to bring Star Wars battles to your tabletop."

-Fantasy Flight.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
There's a few squad builder sites out there, and the X-Wing wikia site. One assumes that they have FFG's tacit approval, since they're still going.

Dials are trickier; you can easily find the allowed manoeuvres for each ship in the table format like you get in the blister packaging, but you'd need to make your own dials.

The fact that you can get the rules on unofficial sites for free is hardly a plus point vs. 40K since the same is true...

Sorry, what are you getting at? You appear to be reading more into my answer than was intended. You asked where the rules on the cards can be found, I answered (albeit without links, as I don't have them bookmarked). It appears I mistook your rhetorical question for an actual one.
Whether it's a "plus point" compared to 40k has nothing to do with my reply (other than the fact that GW don't seem to tolerate people putting the 40k rules up online, while FFG have yet to do anything about the various X-Wing sites). The various third-party sites are "legitimate" in my estimation as they provide accurate information and are tolerated by the game's publisher. Not "official", but then that would add nothing of value.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Legion will, at best, just take a spot alongside Warhammer, Warmachine, Infinity, and Flames of War.

None of those are really mainstream focused at least. I can buy X-Wing Miniatures and Imperial Assault at the bookstore (also Destiny and Armada). I have to go to a comic book store to get my Games Workshop stuff, and I have to order Infinity and Warmachine stuff online. Star Wars, and FFG, has a market penetration that the other miniature games don't and can't have. I probably won't see Runewars at the local Target, but I think I'll probably see Legion starter sets at least.

The reason the WizKids collectible miniature game ended up failing is a massive industry shift away from collectible games. Everything collectible that wasn't Magic or Pokemon crashed hard. All the CCGs, dead (though some came back as non-collectible). HeroClix, HorrorClix, Axis & Allies CMG, Monsterpocalypse, Dungeons and Dragons, World of Warcraft Miniatures, Pirates of the Spanish Main, Mechwarrior - dead. It seems to be coming back with Destiny and Pathfinder, but the simple fact is, the market can't sustain dozens of collectible games just like the market couldn't sustain dozens of subscription MMOs. It wasn't Star Wars CMG's fault. It actually did really well. But after a decade and like two dozen expansion sets, the majority of figures that could be made were made and people didn't want to go through the collectible crap with the four hundredth stormtrooper figure.

So the spot Legion will take is exactly the same one the Star Wars CMG had - a sort of mainstream, light miniatures game. It will ultimately, I think, be more popular than 40k, but it will not be as involved for the fans as 40k is. That is, I think it will be mostly groups of friends playing casually on Friday night rather than heading to the gaming store to play tournaments with strangers. There will still be tournaments and hardcore players, but I doubt they will make up the brunt of the audience for the game. In that way, 40k will still be the most popular and relevant miniature game, as GW's vertical integration allows them access and maneuverability that dealing with the Targets of the world doesn't.

As a complete aside, I expect that we'll start seeing FFG/Asmodee stores popping up soon. That's really the next level to conquer. They need a place to sell their incredibly large catalogue and provide gaming communities to the dozens of tournament games they offer. Even Wizards of the Coast did it back in the early 00s (I remember going to one in the Santa Monica mall when I lived there in 2002). Perhaps most likely is the store-within-a-store approach that Apple took with Best Buys and CompUSAs (and I think Barnes and Nobles used to have a GameStop in it).

Nitpicking, but since it's come up twice - Wizards of the Coast did the previous Star Wars minis games, not Wizkids. Wizkids did do a "pocket model" version of Star Wars (with punch-out plastic card models), but I don't think that is what is being referenced. Wizkids is more well-known for their Clix and recent Attack Wing games, and there may be some confusion because they now put out the official D&D minis, which had previously been done by Wizards.

There is, by the way, an even older version of a Star Wars tabletop skirmish game that was done by West End games - with metal minis; it had add-on rules for vehicles as well.

Unless things have changed, the entire X-Wing community in my meta (which garners weekly nights and monthly tournaments) of at least 15 regular players doesn't paint. In fact they wouldn't play a tabletop game where it was required. Half at least said they wouldn't even assemble a mini. Except for one of them who plays ALL the games....

If this was pre-painted they would play this. Its not and wont sell to the WM/H or 40K groups.

In my meta.

On the arguable need for FFG to up their general release pace...I'd say it's more important they properly sort out their stock.

X-Wing stuff can sell out quickly. And takes months for the shelves to be replenished.

Yes, there are other ways to get the cards and counters as covered. But one still needs the ships. Can't speak for anyone else's, but if I can't get what I need/want within a couple of weeks, I'm likely to just not bother in the long run.

FFG slow releases, Movement templates and tokens, releasing this just as 8th is sucking up all the money, FFG having only recently annoyed allot of US retailers, quite limited scope within existing Star War Universe for units beyond character focus, did I mention many many template and tokens...

I suspect allot of people will get the game and loose interest waiting for more units or hold off until they see the next wave.

The portents for a smash hit aren't there yet I reckon. It would need a big release beyond the boxgame to get traction, and it need to to keep that licence funded.

I've seen FFG drop too many games to rush into this as much as I like Sar Wars.

Many points have been nailed by others already, but even as someone who hasn't been in the hobby as long as others i can say that despite my enjoyment of the Star Wars franchise, I likely will not be bothering with Legion.

FFG has too many games going and I feel that's a major issue. It steals release scheduling from one another. Unless each game has a dedicated dev and production crew, it'll be a problem. Look at how even Warhammer could have periods of slow to no releases for one game to focus on the other, and GW only has 2 games to focus on (AOS and 40k, excluding standalone mini games that happen to be compatable with the larger games mentioned).

Then there's the factor of the rules themselves which I'm not sure if anyone has gotten their hands on to really study them proper. What sort of depth does this game offer? From what I've heard from those who saw it first hand at the cons or from Youtube, hero characters seem borderline broken. They're super good and while that feels somewhat fitting from a lore standpoint, from a game standpoint it seems like it could simply be a war of attrition to keep your leader alive the longest.

There was mention of missions that focus on objectives, which is nice but some can be won even when you've no models left. Fluff wise it's neat but as a standard game mode that seems...off. Competitive wise for sure it's odd.

The game itself seems very...short sighted. It seems like it'd be most fun with friends or a gamer group but not on a higher level like at tournaments.

Then the first party supplies you need really hurts. I hate having to buy special dice. So damn much, Especially since we KNOW the core box wont supply enough, even for one player let alone two. Measurement tools, templates, etc. Just a major hassle if something gets lost/stolen/damaged and likely costly to replace too. For 40k, I can replace my 'measurement tool' for .50 at Mardens (liquidation store). Basic D6 are super cheap for a block that supply all I need for my army. Templates now are no longer needed but even when they were they were pretty cheap considering.

The game feels like it should have everything it needs to be solid, I just don't think it'll launch the way they want it to. I feel like it should have launched with Rebels, Empire, Droids and Clones at the very least to ensure there was a solid variety from the start. I know the original trilogy is the most iconic. Everyone knows Luke and Vader, but having younger Obi-Wan or Mace leading Clones and Grevious or Dooku leaking Droids would have been interesting additions. I'd rather play Droids, in all honesty. They've some really cool units (Basic droids, super droids, the assassin droids, the force field rolley poley droids, tanks, etc).

I don't want any game to fail but with Runewars still being fresh off the presses I can't help but wonder if FFG can actually manage two games like this at once while still trying to keep X-Wing and Armada alive. Also that Star Wars over saturation COULD hurt it down the line, especially if Imperial Assault resumes (But most feel it's ending soon?)

I'll jump on board for the droid models...if they ever come even if I don't end up playing. But I fear that in 2 years this game may not even be around, despite its strong and recognizable IP.

 Stormonu wrote:
Nitpicking, but since it's come up twice - Wizards of the Coast did the previous Star Wars minis games, not Wizkids. Wizkids did do a "pocket model" version of Star Wars (with punch-out plastic card models), but I don't think that is what is being referenced. Wizkids is more well-known for their Clix and recent Attack Wing games, and there may be some confusion because they now put out the official D&D minis, which had previously been done by Wizards.

Right, it was a WOTC game. And IIRC the game sold well enough, WOTC just lost the Star Wars license when it came up for renewal and LucasWhatever decided to spike the cost of it to extortionate levels. WOTC told them where to shove it, and went back to making obscene amounts of money off MTG.

Dunno. From a FFG business perspective I would doubt they'd want to tie their company fortune for decades to a pricey IP with very limited creative control, constantly at the mercy of some IP guy over at Disney.

Especially if they study and learn from what happened to GW when they came off cold turkey from the LoTR sugar rush.

Milk Star Wars for cash while it's hot and try to build up your own stuff (Runewars?), covering potential short term losses in that line with the Star Wars cash, is what I would (try to) do as FFG.

One of the major differences in the past star wars miniatures games is that back then there were no world championships for those.

The tournament scene is what drives miniature games ultimately. Casual for-fun games never seem to get any traction.

Strap on a world championship title, and you've got yourself something.

 auticus wrote:


The tournament scene is what drives miniature games ultimately. Casual for-fun games never seem to get any traction.

I'm sorry but that is total and utter tosh.

 Pete Melvin wrote:

 auticus wrote:


The tournament scene is what drives miniature games ultimately. Casual for-fun games never seem to get any traction.

I'm sorry but that is total and utter tosh.

In many areas in the US, it's completely true. Remember that we don't tend to have gaming clubs in the same way that the UK does. There generally isn't a place where you can go, hang out and play a game with your mates while drinking a pint. Many games live or die by whether or not the local stores run regular events and by whether or not there is a major event 'coming soon' to practice for. I play a lot of Armada. I'd probably stop playing if the various local stores stopped running events. Fortunately, Legion will be like any other FFG game and will be supported with official OP Kits, Store Championships, Regional Championships, National Championships and Worlds. Every official event will have swag... acrylic replacements for cardboard components and game cards with alternate artwork, most likely. Take all of that away and Legion likely has very little chance in the US. The organized play scene (i.e., regular events like tournaments) totally drives these games in the US.

 auticus wrote:
One of the major differences in the past star wars miniatures games is that back then there were no world championships for those.

The tournament scene is what drives miniature games ultimately. Casual for-fun games never seem to get any traction.

Strap on a world championship title, and you've got yourself something.

This is probably true in the US, because EVERYTHING HAS TO BE A COMPETITION here in the US.

It is absolutely true in the US. The narrative and for fun scene over here is something you have to dig to find.

The competitive tournament scene is what nearly everyone here near me buys armies for. If not to play in tournaments, to at least not get rolled by the guys that are bringing their tournament list to the casual and campaign events too.

No one here cares about a game if it doesn't have a world championship series. It could be the best games with the best models ever, and no one will touch it without a yearly grand tournament to support it.

Thats the key difference between Legion and past Starwars tabletop games. Legion will have a world championship. Take away the FFG tournament scene and Legion would be just like the last few star wars games. A blip and then nothing.

So there are no "small" games in the US? No small manufacturers? Come on. As far as I can see the big games in the US are just the same as over here. 40K, WM, X-Wing and some others. These seriously can't be the ONLY things that exist because SWAG.