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 jifel wrote:
Large Acolyte squads with Rocksaws will also do great work, but big purestrain blobs are the most TAC answer we have.

Why not both?

jifel wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
What's the best thing in the army for fighting heavy armour of the T8, 3+ variety?

Abberants with hammers?

Purestrain genestealers with either might from beyond or the Icon of the Cult Ascendant are our best melee answers without using allies.

jifel wrote:Large Acolyte squads with Rocksaws will also do great work, but big purestrain blobs are the most TAC answer we have.

He specifically asked for T8 3+ answers though, which is the opposite of wanting a TAC unit...
unless I'm missing something, compared to Aberrants, Purestrains put significantly less wounds on them (about 75% the damage output point for point), with no AP on half those wounds (as opposed to forcing Invul on every wound), and have a harder time all getting in range to swing on a single T8 unit, and also cost more for a full unit...

 SHUPPET wrote:

jifel wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
What's the best thing in the army for fighting heavy armour of the T8, 3+ variety?

Abberants with hammers?

Purestrain genestealers with either might from beyond or the Icon of the Cult Ascendant are our best melee answers without using allies.

jifel wrote:Large Acolyte squads with Rocksaws will also do great work, but big purestrain blobs are the most TAC answer we have.

He specifically asked for T8 3+ answers though, which is the opposite of wanting a TAC unit...
unless I'm missing something, compared to Aberrants, Purestrains put significantly less wounds on them (about 75% the damage output point for point), with no AP on half those wounds (as opposed to forcing Invul on every wound), and have a harder time all getting in range to swing on a single T8 unit, and also cost more for a full unit...

This is my thinking also. Abberants just seem like they have a better chance to get the job done, especially with a Primus.
Genestealers talents seem like they would be better suited elsewhere.
And Acolytes just don't do enough damage for my liking. And you are paying way more points to take those 8 saws.

The reason I bring up TAC is that while yes, Abberants probably do better per point, Purestrains will still do well vs T8 3+ and are much, much better vs the field. Abberants aren't going to do much for you when you play against Orks, Daemons, etc.

 jifel wrote:
The reason I bring up TAC is that while yes, Abberants probably do better per point, Purestrains will still do well vs T8 3+ and are much, much better vs the field. Abberants aren't going to do much for you when you play against Orks, Daemons, etc.

The main issue I have with genestealers used like that is that you need a horde of them with at least 2 hqs to make them effective, which can add up to almost 25% of a list. In comparison a smaller abberant or acolyte squad properly kitted out does the damage to the big units for almost 100 points less, more if your using a patriarch for the stealers.

I personally prefer to use genestealers against hqs and their bubblewrap.

operkoi wrote:

 jifel wrote:
The reason I bring up TAC is that while yes, Abberants probably do better per point, Purestrains will still do well vs T8 3+ and are much, much better vs the field. Abberants aren't going to do much for you when you play against Orks, Daemons, etc.

The main issue I have with genestealers used like that is that you need a horde of them with at least 2 hqs to make them effective, which can add up to almost 25% of a list. In comparison a smaller abberant or acolyte squad properly kitted out does the damage to the big units for almost 100 points less, more if your using a patriarch for the stealers.

I personally prefer to use genestealers against hqs and their bubblewrap.

How many do you recommend for a unit? I thought a full unit would be nice as it can potentially wreck a Knight

 SHUPPET wrote:

operkoi wrote:

 jifel wrote:
The reason I bring up TAC is that while yes, Abberants probably do better per point, Purestrains will still do well vs T8 3+ and are much, much better vs the field. Abberants aren't going to do much for you when you play against Orks, Daemons, etc.

The main issue I have with genestealers used like that is that you need a horde of them with at least 2 hqs to make them effective, which can add up to almost 25% of a list. In comparison a smaller abberant or acolyte squad properly kitted out does the damage to the big units for almost 100 points less, more if your using a patriarch for the stealers.

I personally prefer to use genestealers against hqs and their bubblewrap.

How many do you recommend for a unit? I thought a full unit would be nice as it can potentially wreck a Knight

Either a full unit or close to it. Minimum 16-18 stealers. The issue I have with using them against things like knights and to a lesser extent tanks is that if they don't kill it, which is very possible it can usually just walk out then the stealer blob is vulnerable to being shot up by the rest of the army, and much like daemon troops the bonus for a 10+ squad is very powerful and you want to maintain it as long as possible and take out as many enemy weapons before you lose the bonus. Being able to charge and trap multiple squads also makes retreat shooting much less effective.

The main advantage I've found with Aberrants for armor cracking is that they don't require outside help to excel at the job and have good force concentration. A big blob of 'stealers can struggle to get everyone in range to swing, while a squad of Aberrants rarely has issue doing the same. The smaller unit size also makes it easier to hide and allows them to make use of transports more effectively than Genestealers and (to a lesser extent) Acolytes. Aberrants do struggle against mass infantry, but there is almost always something that they can go after. The aforementioned Daemons for instance have a plethora of multi-wound models that Aberrants are more than happy to smash, while an Ork Green Tide still has mutli-wound support characters and potentially some artillery batteries in the backfield that Aberrants can deal with.

Purestrains are good mind you, but I would treat them more as a supplemental/emergency source of armor cracking rather than dedicated armor hunters. They are far more efficient going after infantry and light vehicles than heavy targets and there is always a risk that the source of buffs will be eliminated early on.

Followers of the 4 armed emperor, I need aadvice.

I have slowly been building up my cult forces and have a had a few games with them. I was struggling a little vs heavy armour so i have been using 3x Goliath Rockgrinders with Aberants inside (3 with pick 2 with hammer) and a primus. General tactic has been to move and advance with grinders T1, then T2 get out with the aberrants and smash 2-3 trucks and 15 aberants into the enemy big units.

This has done pretty well, but I was wondering is there a better way. I was thinking taking 3x Goliath trucks and putting 10 acolytes with 4x rock saws in each truck. Have an Iconward with the +1 strength banner and a primus along and that seems very strong. Total of 24 str 10 ap-3 D2 attacks hitting on 2s. I could also move some points around (drop the mining lasers i have else where in the list) and take cult icons to get rerolls of 1 to hit. Add to this the 36 Str 5 rending claw attacks and 18 cultist knives.

This is verses the 12 hammerant attacks, 18 power pick attacks and average of 16-24 grinder attacks (usually lose 1 truck on the way in).

Not sure which one is better, what do my fellow neophytes think?

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
Followers of the 4 armed emperor, I need aadvice.

I have slowly been building up my cult forces and have a had a few games with them. I was struggling a little vs heavy armour so i have been using 3x Goliath Rockgrinders with Aberants inside (3 with pick 2 with hammer) and a primus. General tactic has been to move and advance with grinders T1, then T2 get out with the aberrants and smash 2-3 trucks and 15 aberants into the enemy big units.

This has done pretty well, but I was wondering is there a better way. I was thinking taking 3x Goliath trucks and putting 10 acolytes with 4x rock saws in each truck. Have an Iconward with the +1 strength banner and a primus along and that seems very strong. Total of 24 str 10 ap-3 D2 attacks hitting on 2s. I could also move some points around (drop the mining lasers i have else where in the list) and take cult icons to get rerolls of 1 to hit. Add to this the 36 Str 5 rending claw attacks and 18 cultist knives.

This is verses the 12 hammerant attacks, 18 power pick attacks and average of 16-24 grinder attacks (usually lose 1 truck on the way in).

Not sure which one is better, what do my fellow neophytes think?

How are the Primus and Icon guys keeping up with the trucks full of acolytes?
They can't fit in with them. Are you planning to ambush them?
Also it seems like a lot more models to do for what the Abberants can do cheaper and more reliably.

In summary I feel that just hitting something with a S10 hammer is often the answer.

 dan2026 wrote:

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
Followers of the 4 armed emperor, I need aadvice.

I have slowly been building up my cult forces and have a had a few games with them. I was struggling a little vs heavy armour so i have been using 3x Goliath Rockgrinders with Aberants inside (3 with pick 2 with hammer) and a primus. General tactic has been to move and advance with grinders T1, then T2 get out with the aberrants and smash 2-3 trucks and 15 aberants into the enemy big units.

This has done pretty well, but I was wondering is there a better way. I was thinking taking 3x Goliath trucks and putting 10 acolytes with 4x rock saws in each truck. Have an Iconward with the +1 strength banner and a primus along and that seems very strong. Total of 24 str 10 ap-3 D2 attacks hitting on 2s. I could also move some points around (drop the mining lasers i have else where in the list) and take cult icons to get rerolls of 1 to hit. Add to this the 36 Str 5 rending claw attacks and 18 cultist knives.

This is verses the 12 hammerant attacks, 18 power pick attacks and average of 16-24 grinder attacks (usually lose 1 truck on the way in).

Not sure which one is better, what do my fellow neophytes think?

How are the Primus and Icon guys keeping up with the trucks full of acolytes?
They can't fit in with them. Are you planning to ambush them?
Also it seems like a lot more models to do for what the Abberants can do cheaper and more reliably.

In summary I feel that just hitting something with a S10 hammer is often the answer.

I guess I could take 2x trucks with acolytes and 1x grinder with 4 aberants and put the primus + iconward in the grinder as well.

Best of both worlds?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Killteam GSC points leaks

Acolytes maybe to 7-8 points in kill team, thats good news for the upcomg codex!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAirkXwcLSQ

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:


I guess I could take 2x trucks with acolytes and 1x grinder with 4 aberants and put the primus + iconward in the grinder as well.

Best of both worlds?

Have you considered chimeras instead of trucks? Then you can easier fit the supporting characters with the acolytes and pack more aberrants in the rockgrinder. I find that the open topped truck can be useful if you have lots of shooting, but I generally prefer the chimera for transport.

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
This has done pretty well, but I was wondering is there a better way. I was thinking taking 3x Goliath trucks and putting 10 acolytes with 4x rock saws in each truck.

With Goliath Trucks specifically I'd suggest using the Demolition Charges instead of Saws, to take advantage of the Open Topped rule and Demolition Cache if equipped. The ability to throw explosives from the back of a Goliath after it moves both increases the threat range considerably and is safer for the squad since they can get their strike in and remain safely bunkered. For melee squad delivery I'd suggest looking towards a Chimera instead, since it has significantly more anti-infantry firepower to clear a path through screening units and is slightly tougher against small arms fire than the Goliath Truck (Goliath in turn is slightly more durable against anti-tank fire due to Rugged Construction).

Maybe you could try 2x2, with Aberrants in the Rockgrinders and Acolytes in Goliaths (with Demolition Charges) or Chimeras (with melee weapons). Rockgrinders really like having other vehicles around for threat saturation and as you said can be used to finish off damaged targets with their own melee attack.

Mellon wrote:

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:


I guess I could take 2x trucks with acolytes and 1x grinder with 4 aberants and put the primus + iconward in the grinder as well.

Best of both worlds?

Have you considered chimeras instead of trucks? Then you can easier fit the supporting characters with the acolytes and pack more aberrants in the rockgrinder. I find that the open topped truck can be useful if you have lots of shooting, but I generally prefer the chimera for transport.

I do like chimeras but I wan to try and run my GSC army with only GSC models. Also I just finished painting 6 Chimeras for my Steel Legion so I dont really want to paint up any more!

Strat_N8 wrote:

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
This has done pretty well, but I was wondering is there a better way. I was thinking taking 3x Goliath trucks and putting 10 acolytes with 4x rock saws in each truck.

With Goliath Trucks specifically I'd suggest using the Demolition Charges instead of Saws, to take advantage of the Open Topped rule and Demolition Cache if equipped. The ability to throw explosives from the back of a Goliath after it moves both increases the threat range considerably and is safer for the squad since they can get their strike in and remain safely bunkered. For melee squad delivery I'd suggest looking towards a Chimera instead, since it has significantly more anti-infantry firepower to clear a path through screening units and is slightly tougher against small arms fire than the Goliath Truck (Goliath in turn is slightly more durable against anti-tank fire due to Rugged Construction).

Maybe you could try 2x2, with Aberrants in the Rockgrinders and Acolytes in Goliaths (with Demolition Charges) or Chimeras (with melee weapons). Rockgrinders really like having other vehicles around for threat saturation and as you said can be used to finish off damaged targets with their own melee attack.

I think I will try mixing both Aberrants and Acolytes, I am hesitant to use demo charges because the acolytes only hit on 4+ in shooting. Feel like hitting 3s (or 2s with a primus) in close combat is much better.

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

I do like chimeras but I wan to try and run my GSC army with only GSC models. Also I just finished painting 6 Chimeras for my Steel Legion so I dont really want to paint up any more!

I'm mostly the same (only have 1 Chimera but 6 Goliath Trucks and 3 Rockgrinders), so no worries. The Chimera suggestion is mostly on the basis of what the transports want to do, since the Chimera has mostly short-range firepower with an anti-infantry slant while the Goliath has longer-ranged guns and a more generalist load-out.

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

I am hesitant to use demo charges because the acolytes only hit on 4+ in shooting. Feel like hitting 3s (or 2s with a primus) in close combat is much better.

That's fair. My experience has been the number of shots that the Demolition Charges get while en-mass tends to compensate for the Acolyte's iffy aiming ability. Admittedly, they are better used for small disposable squads that you don't expect to survive long, since it allows them to front-load their damage in one barrage instead of requiring multiple turns of combat.

Let us know how things work out!

So I like to use purestrains and aberrants I use 2 primus though. 1st turn I ambush with whichever is more needed with primus. Gives me options and I can always ambush the other in naturally with a reroll. I like the iconward with the purestrains also ambushed for the extra str(wounding everything on5+ makes a big difference). 2nd turn I use 2nd primus with the unused unit and the strat.

I'm a Nids player, but I'm going to take a GSC detachment of

Patriach
Primus
Primus

20x Neophytes
20x Neophytes
20x Neophytes

Strat + CP re-roll on the Patriarch. Cheap units, ideally get 2 squads of fearless Neophytes tying up backfield units turn 1, coupled with 60-80 Lasgun shots. Will be pairing with a Swarmlord boosted squad of 30 Gargoyles, for that potentially 48" flying move + charge to fully tie up the ideal target. Hopefully other than that I can just go full aggression into Dakkafexes and Stealers. What do you guys think? Also, what power on the Broodlord? I was thinking Hypnosis, but then I realized Might could be REALLY fun, to really squeeze the most out of the cultists with a single Primus nearby that's over 40x S4 attacks hitting on 3+ for no real cost other that a single power.

I'd get at least one familiar so you can cast 2 on the turn you drop. The GSC powers are all great. Now knights are becoming do popular, hijacking their guns for the cost of one power is pretty funny

 DoomMouse wrote:
I'd get at least one familiar so you can cast 2 on the turn you drop. The GSC powers are all great. Now knights are becoming do popular, hijacking their guns for the cost of one power is pretty funny

I'm not super familiar with GSC yet - but I thought the familiar didn't give me a second power, only let me CAST a second power? i.e. let's me cast selected power + Smite in 1 turn.

The BRAIN CONTROL power is pretty tempting as well. Wish we could still select on a per-game basis.

Fun fact, you can select on pre-game basis in most formats. ITC, Nova, Adepticon and I believe ETC all allow you to select pre game. What format are you playing where this isn't the case?

 jifel wrote:
Fun fact, you can select on pre-game basis in most formats. ITC, Nova, Adepticon and I believe ETC all allow you to select pre game. What format are you playing where this isn't the case?

I genuinely thought it was a rule in 8th. I recall reading about it when I was first learning the edition, and nobody ever speaks about it. If this is the case I'll definitely be selecting the power on a per-game basis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I realised today that taking a Primus to re-roll a unit of Neophytes is dumb, when for a similar price I could just take an entire new unit of Neophytes for a second roll entirely and more bodies in the list.

Just gonna take 2 Patriarch (with familiar) for maximum chance of one landing forward, and then about 80 Neophytes to fill out a battalion.

Yeah, it's common that you're required to type your powers to your list, but you can choose to change them before game. Of you forget to change/choose, you use the ones typed in your list.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I realised today that taking a Primus to re-roll a unit of Neophytes is dumb, when for a similar price I could just take an entire new unit of Neophytes for a second roll entirely and more bodies in the list.

True, ambush modification isn't as necessary for Neophytes given the threat range afforded them by their guns. It might be worthwhile for delivering a big shotgun squad to clog up the board followed by Return to Shadows to go back into reserve to deliver something else, but for the most part the Primus is best used with melee units who want the ambush control or weapon skill bump (Rockgrinders, Acolytes with Rock Cutters, Aberrants with Hammers)

 SHUPPET wrote:

Just gonna take 2 Patriarch (with familiar) for maximum chance of one landing forward, and then about 80 Neophytes to fill out a battalion.

Might also want to consider a pair of Magi to go with a Patriarch. They are the cheapest way to access Brood Mind powers and their aura ability is situationally useful depending on how prevalent offense psychic powers are your meta.

Also keep in mind that the Familiar's psychic assist ability at this point only grants an extra use of Smite, as none of the GSC psykers currently know more than one Brood Mind power (so they will either use the Brood Mind power and then Smite or vice versa). Regardless, they are very nice to have against high powered shots targeting their master.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I realised today that taking a Primus to re-roll a unit of Neophytes is dumb, when for a similar price I could just take an entire new unit of Neophytes for a second roll entirely and more bodies in the list.

True, ambush modification isn't as necessary for Neophytes given the threat range afforded them by their guns. It might be worthwhile for delivering a big shotgun squad to clog up the board followed by Return to Shadows to go back into reserve to deliver something else, but for the most part the Primus is best used with melee units who want the ambush control or weapon skill bump (Rockgrinders, Acolytes with Rock Cutters, Aberrants with Hammers)

 SHUPPET wrote:

Just gonna take 2 Patriarch (with familiar) for maximum chance of one landing forward, and then about 80 Neophytes to fill out a battalion.

Might also want to consider a pair of Magi to go with a Patriarch. They are the cheapest way to access Brood Mind powers and their aura ability is situationally useful depending on how prevalent offense psychic powers are your meta.

Also keep in mind that the Familiar's psychic assist ability at this point only grants an extra use of Smite, as none of the GSC psykers currently know more than one Brood Mind power (so they will either use the Brood Mind power and then Smite or vice versa). Regardless, they are very nice to have against high powered shots targeting their master.

Thanks for the reply. I considered it, but 2x Patriarch gives me my choice of the optimal 2 powers for that MU anyway and as you said, 2 smites. I was considering dropping 1 for a Magus to save some points however, though 2 patriarch may let me split up neophytes and surround sound some stuff and is a decent upgrade for 80 pts I think. I'll definitely consider tweaking that around though.

Anybody have any decent assumptions or wishes for the codex?

I recently acquired Overkill and the Battleforce as well as the Kill Team boxed set. I'm currently finishing up painting my guard army but will be switching to the cult soon. Was just curious about any future proof way to build these guys.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Anybody have any decent assumptions or wishes for the codex?

I recently acquired Overkill and the Battleforce as well as the Kill Team boxed set. I'm currently finishing up painting my guard army but will be switching to the cult soon. Was just curious about any future proof way to build these guys.

main hope for me is cheaper acolytes (around 8-9 points), cheaper or better goliaths (ws4+ heavy weapons hurts), and a complete overhaul of metamorphs

Yeah I am looking through the index and I'm not sure why I'd take metamorphs over acolytes.

I envision my cult force to be about 1k of just HQs, Abberants, and Acolytes popping up while their guard allies hold down the fort. So I'm not too interested in the rockgrinder or Goliath. Especially when that kit is so expensive!

 Colonel Cross wrote:

I recently acquired Overkill and the Battleforce as well as the Kill Team boxed set. I'm currently finishing up painting my guard army but will be switching to the cult soon. Was just curious about any future proof way to build these guys.

We can assume most of the Chapter Approved points adjustments should carry over to the codex, so Seismic Weapons, Aberrants, Rock Saws, and 'stealers should be fairly future proofed. I think most units should transfer over well. The only thing I'd hold off on assembling are special weapon Acolytes (in case the other weapons get a cost drop like Saws - might want to mix a few in) and Metamorphs (might see an overhaul or at least a cost drop and some new synergies from stratagems or Cult Gambits).

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Yeah I am looking through the index and I'm not sure why I'd take metamorphs over acolytes.

Currently there isn't really a good reason with their current price point. In the 7th edition codex the Metamorphs were the mass attacks specialist squad while Acolytes were the special weapons squad and Genestealers were the fast counter-assault squad. In Kill Team they received a hefty cost reduction alongside Acolytes, so if the values transfer over (which they may, most of the other points per model values line up with codex costs) they might be able to return to their mass attack specialization and be able to compete with Genestealers as a cheaper alternative for horde killing while 'stealers focus on taking out other melee specialists.

.
Hey all, was hoping for some feedback on this list. Thinking I'd do a pretty standard approach of cracking their backline with basilisks best I can, then swarm from beneath with the purestrains, and more strategically from above with the tempestus.

On that note I've read mixed items about tempestus. My understanding is we can use the unit, but the tempestus keyword is replaced with brood brothers. Is that correct?

weaver9 wrote:
.
Hey all, was hoping for some feedback on this list. Thinking I'd do a pretty standard approach of cracking their backline with basilisks best I can, then swarm from beneath with the purestrains, and more strategically from above with the tempestus.

If you can find points for it, I'd suggest adding another Grenade Launcher to each squad as they work much better in pairs (2D6 shots is more reliable than 1D6). If you were willing to drop a 'stealer from each brood you could also give each squad a Seismic Cannon as well for additional shots with the same strength values as the Grenade Launcher.

weaver9 wrote:
.
On that note I've read mixed items about tempestus. My understanding is we can use the unit, but the tempestus keyword is replaced with brood brothers. Is that correct?

I'd probably avoid any Militarum Tempestus units as their ability to be included in a Brood Brothers detachment is a bit ambiguous. The FAQ/Errata says a unit with a <Regiment> keyword must change it to Brood Brothers, but Scions have no <Regiment> keyword to change in favor of a fixed Militarum Tempestus regimental keyword. The aforementioned ambiguity comes from the rules regarding detachments within the Astra Militarum codex itself, as it has a special exemption for including Scions in a <Regiment> detachment without affecting the detachment's regimental trait (so a Cadian detachment with some Scions is a Cadian detachment rather than a mixed Cadian/Militarum Tempestus detachment).