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I’d say the most iconic thing is fragile troops with deadly serious melee weapons. No one cares that a bunch of guardsmen popped next to them up until the drills start revving.

Just played a 1000pts game vs Eldar and I have to say we are still good with our remaining trick the 4+ wound shunt to mooks. I ambushed in a prime and a squad of 20 neos to harass the enemy main leader blob inc a wrathlord 3 psykers and an atarach and with backup from my patriarch a magus and a reambushing 10 neo squad a turn later, I just destroyed them. WE also have the most resilient HQ's vs the Knight character hunter missiles with familars in the game. Really looking forward to our codex if this is our low point.

Honestly just lower the cost of units, give us some decent strats/relics/powers, and a way to better manipulate our main gimmick (ambushing) and GSC would be in a good place. I wouldn’t mind more options for fast attack and heavy though, there’s a ton of Imperium units we could steal and brigades are a pain to do currently.

 Badablack wrote:
Honestly just lower the cost of units, give us some decent strats/relics/powers, and a way to better manipulate our main gimmick (ambushing) and GSC would be in a good place. I wouldn’t mind more options for fast attack and heavy though, there’s a ton of Imperium units we could steal and brigades are a pain to do currently.

Yeah, it feels like we are a glass cannon but too much glass.

I'm not a big fan of trading our identity as an army for point reductions, so hopefully we get some crazy unique gak and not just copy paste stratagems.

I tried a game earlier today using a test list with all the faq stuff. Ran it with all GSC infantry (neophytes, acolytes and aberrants), a Kraken detachment full of genestealers, and 3 Plasma Obliterator fortifications.

Played a full tourney eldar list, the full shebang with a ton of dark reapers, flamethrower jets, and shining spears. I predictably lost, but it was actually pretty close. I started with all my guys either in reserve or in fortifications, and went second so I popped the cover stratagem on the buildings. He predictably blew up all 3 Obliterators over the course of 2 turns, but the contents remained safe and I actually took out a bunch of shining spears and messed up a jet from explosion results.

Highlight of the game was a 10-man aberrant squad and 10 acolytes with drills both getting 6’s and starting next to his big dark reaper camp, wiping everything out. (They all died the next turn.)

I wouldn't mind some copied stratagems. Like a "shoot twice" stratagem. Imagine that + a 5 on the ambush table. That's three times a Neophyte squad would get to shoot.

so 60 autoguns? Woohoo......

When you guys ally do you tend to go heavier on tyranids, or IG? What types of units do you grab from each?

weaver9 wrote:
When you guys ally do you tend to go heavier on tyranids, or IG? What types of units do you grab from each?

I'll try to summarise the advice that I believe is usually given regarding AM with GSC. In short. You are looking for things that will cover up the weaknesses in GSC. So things that shoot well, or things that survive well.

One thing that both survives and shoots are Leman Russes, including tank commanders. Popular versions are the regular battlecannon, the Punisher and the Conqueror. They also get Objective Secured if they are taken in a Spearhed detachment.

AM have cheap infantry, and thanks to orders they can be quite flexible.

Basilisks and Manticores are good for longrange fire.

Lots of command points is another AM specialty. 2 commanders, 3 squads of infantry and Kurovs Aquila is a good combo.

Bullgryns (maybe with an Astropath) and Sentinel Powerlifters are two great assault units that survive better than our assaut units. For the sentinels you want to use the stratagem Crush Them.

Artemia pattern Hellhounds are also good fire magnets that can complement our melee units well. Beware that they explode quite easily when destroyed, so charge them into enemies a bit away from your units.

Sneggy wrote:
so 60 autoguns? Woohoo......

120 autogun shots (you are in RFR after ambushing). And who plays his 20 Neos with only Autoguns? Add in GLs and SCs and they could actually kill a good chunk of infantry. On average that would kill 10 MEQ, 23 GEQ or about 20 Ork Boys etc. Not bad for essentially Guardsmen with industrial mining gear.

Yea I have been having the most success recently using mainly neophytes. They perform well in any situation for their points. They are by far the best unit to ambush. Currently the best two units in the book aside from characters are the neophytes and the Aberrant. I'd say the best characters are the Magus and the Abomanant, Primus is nice to have for that reliable ambush when you really need a result but more often then not the other two are really pulling their weight.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea I have been having the most success recently using mainly neophytes. They perform well in any situation for their points. They are by far the best unit to ambush. Currently the best two units in the book aside from characters are the neophytes and the Aberrant. I'd say the best characters are the Magus and the Abomanant, Primus is nice to have for that reliable ambush when you really need a result but more often then not the other two are really pulling their weight.

For a 20man Shotgun Neophyte bomb, it's probably not worth even spending the points on a Primus right? Just use the Strat seems good enough?

Hey all, was wondering if i could get some advice on what to add to my army in the future.

I currently have the GSC half of DW:Overkill (3x acolytes converted to have heavy weapons), 5x Metamorphs, a Leman Russ, and about 20 Guardsmen my friend lets me borrow.

I'm about to purchase Tooth and Claw as it seems a good deal, but that only leaves me with a less than optimal 2k point list.

I was thinking of picking up a couple Rockgrinders and a couple boxes of neophytes maybe? I'd like to stay mono GSC if possible.

 Causalis wrote:
I wouldn't mind some copied stratagems. Like a "shoot twice" stratagem. Imagine that + a 5 on the ambush table. That's three times a Neophyte squad would get to shoot.

I imagine a fight twice strat would be in the cards as well.

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
Hey all, was wondering if i could get some advice on what to add to my army in the future.

I currently have the GSC half of DW:Overkill (3x acolytes converted to have heavy weapons), 5x Metamorphs, a Leman Russ, and about 20 Guardsmen my friend lets me borrow.

I'm about to purchase Tooth and Claw as it seems a good deal, but that only leaves me with a less than optimal 2k point list.

I was thinking of picking up a couple Rockgrinders and a couple boxes of neophytes maybe? I'd like to stay mono GSC if possible.

Hey and welcome to the cult!

First of all, anything can change once we get our codex, and that might happen this year. So maybe you want to hold up with any big purchases.

That said, if we look at current state:

Staying mono GSC is a bit of a handicap, but it is a choice that I highly respect!

The T&C box is good value. Aberrants and the abominant are really good.

Rockgrinders are indeed fun and _very_ good looking. Unfortunately they are a bit expensive in points.

Neophytes are great. You can always have more of them.

I'd suggest getting some more genestealers to make them into a big unit.

I like to have two primus for more precision ambushes. Have them escort aberrants, genestealers or acolytes with heavy weapons. Depending on what you are fighting against.

One or two more Leman Russ maybe. Running only a single vehicle makes it the only target for enemy anti tank, so it will die fast.

Thanks for the advice and the welcome.

So with T&C that'll put me at 10 genestealers, so I should look to pick up about 10 more?

I made a 2000 point list given what these next few purchases might provide me with:



Definitely not winning any competitive matches but it looks decent?

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
Thanks for the advice and the welcome.

So with T&C that'll put me at 10 genestealers, so I should look to pick up about 10 more?

I made a 2000 point list given what these next few purchases might provide me with:

Spoiler:

===Battalion===
==HQ==
-Abominant
-Iconward w/ Relic
==Troops==
-10x Acolytes w/ 4 saws, cult icon, bonesword on leader
-5x Acolytes w/ 2 Rock Cutter
-5x Acolytes w/ 2 Rock Drill
==Elites==
-9x Abberants w/ 4 Hammer, 4 Pick, Improvise Weapon on hypermorph
-10x Genestealers
===Battalion===
==HQ==
-Patriarch (Warlord: Focus of Adoration) w/ Familiar, Might From Beyond
-Primus
==Troops==
-20x Neophytes w/ 2 Grenade Launcher, 2 Seismic Cannons, Cult Icon
-12x Neophytes w/ 2 Grenade Launcher
-12x Neophytes w/ 2 Grenade Launcher
===Spearhead===
==HQ==
-Magus w/ Familiar, Mass Hypnosis
==Heavy Support==
-Cult Leman Russ w/ Battle Cannon, 3 Heavy Bolters
-Goliath Rockgrinder w/ Clearance Incinerator
-Goliath Rockgrinder w/ Clearance Incinerator

Definitely not winning any competitive matches but it looks decent?

That looks more than decent, and fun to play as well.

And yeah, you could buy another 8-pack of genestealers to get them to 18. They gain an extra attack at 10+ models, and with a big unit it takes some dedication from the enemy to bring them under that treshold.

Awesome, thanks for the help.

I'm sure I could also pick up the 2 from DW:Overkill off eBay

So here's a question for everyone: are Goliath trucks tanking going second better now that we can give them cover more easily?

My big problem with Goliath Trucks is the Chimera feels so much better. A Chimera has smoke launchers, higher transport capacity and better guns in the form of flamers (hitting on a 5+ with an autocannon is a big oof).

I want trucks to be good as they're so cool, hopefully they'll get some buffs in the codex (or we will get something worth putting in them that can take advantage of open-topped). Also, I hope we get the track guards and other wargear for the chimera to match the IG version

I have made the experience that the Truck is alright as a driving "bunker" for my Neophytes. All my other Neophytes are often dead on turn 3 since they die like flies even in cover. So the Truck does have his place as a shooting platform.

The problem is just that it is still way too expensive and that its guns are currently almost worthless. I hope it gets either significantly cheaper or a bit cheaper and ignores the penalty for moving and shooting.

Having a Rockgrinder in sub-assemblies right now, I can definitely say it's a cool model and I'm likely going to end up with 10 of the trucks regardless (between the two varients), but there is definitely to be said for the Chimera too. That said, I plan on painting all my IG vehicles the same utilitarian grey as the Goliaths because it makes more sense for the PDF of a Hive World than Cadian camo colours.

Then again I'm a hobby idiot who tends to play counter meta more by accident than by intent so let's not get too hung up on that.

With the change to reserves I feel like a stronger table presence (at least at deployment, we can always take a unit on the table off the table turn 1 to increase our turn 2 ambushers without worrying about the reserve limits) is needed on turn 1, and with that I feel like more durability is needed, hence why I started looking at the Goliath truck in both its forms. While I plan on eventually expanding into the more PDF style elements of the cult, I'm still getting into the miners right now and focusing on those sweet, sweet sculpts.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea I have been having the most success recently using mainly neophytes. They perform well in any situation for their points. They are by far the best unit to ambush. Currently the best two units in the book aside from characters are the neophytes and the Aberrant. I'd say the best characters are the Magus and the Abomanant, Primus is nice to have for that reliable ambush when you really need a result but more often then not the other two are really pulling their weight.

For a 20man Shotgun Neophyte bomb, it's probably not worth even spending the points on a Primus right? Just use the Strat seems good enough?

Yea generally, but I take a primus in the list for one unit anyway because sometimes you need to almost guarantee a result, for example to grab an objective from an enemy or to tie down a tank line etc. I also like the primus because he does work all on his own, I never keep him back, he usually goes in after another target. I wouldn't take a primus for multiple units though, he definitely helps a great deal on turn 2 with shotgun bloke though since the large unit can be hard to place near your ideal target as well. So basically I just take the one and often use him on the 20 man shotgun blob because I have a very specific task in mind that turn and 3 dice rerolling allows them to be accurate for that task. Plus everything is so cheap it really isn't hard to squeeze a single primus into most lists.

True and the bonus to hit can't be looked over either

 Causalis wrote:
I have made the experience that the Truck is alright as a driving "bunker" for my Neophytes. All my other Neophytes are often dead on turn 3 since they die like flies even in cover. So the Truck does have his place as a shooting platform.

The problem is just that it is still way too expensive and that its guns are currently almost worthless. I hope it gets either significantly cheaper or a bit cheaper and ignores the penalty for moving and shooting.

I have considered the bunker idea but the issue is efficiency. That garbage truck costs more then 20 additional neos. With the +1 cover save strat I would always rather have the extra bodies turn 1. You can also divide them into multiple squads of course, cult ambushing some as needed. GSC is strange as an army because we don't need transports a lot of the time. So the transport needs to protect something valuable IMO. Chaf is not valuable.

I no longer ambush any combat units personally since waiting until turn 2 and fishing for 5's and 6's is a poor strategy. Even with a primus it just is not worth it much of the time. As discussed in the last few pages, vanguard elite units like purestrains and abberants often come in, hit a cheap screen and then die. For example a 20 man GS unit is often praised for it;s damage output and for good reason. 20 purestrains can easily be buffed to the point of having 5 strength 5 or even strength 6 attacks, the issue is they cost 300 points before adding in all the buffing character support. It's exceedingly difficult to ambush 20 models into an ideal position on turn 2 for assaulting only and not lose them the very next turn, and this is made even more of a gamble since your looking to kill more points then your spending meaning you now need to kill something worth at least 300 points. This ties into the next issue which is being too good, yes you heard me, 9/10 you will literally cause more damage then the target has wounds leaving you stuck in the open after overkilling less points worth of scrubs. I honestly think the flurry of claws rule is a trap, I would rather take 5 man purestrain units and use them like ninja squads to bully objectives near ruins but generally speaking I have been leaving them home entirely at the moment. 15ppm is way to expensive for how squishy and one dimensional they are.

For heavy lifting I have been using abberants, they are much more durable then you would expect and can fit taking only a single seat into a Chimera with room for a character, if your scared of explosions just take a pair of familiars on a magus or 5 acolytes, though with my ballsy play style I just roll with characters and Abbs lol. Turn 1 going second you have a T7 2+ save bunker and going first you have a T7 3+ save -1 to hit bunker to stage your assault from.

Now having said that I will let you all into my brain as it is still constantly evolving (hopefully not devolving) like a brood brother lol. I like abberants, but I like the abomanant much more and for his cost this jerk is insanely efficient and I am currently working on reducing the abberant count to a single small pick ax unit (never take hammers if you have more then one abomanant he does their job better in every way) and three abomanants since they have insane board control. Your opponent wont want to get near them and they can lead 20 man mobs of neophytes and fill their only hole, which is big stompy things they struggle to wound. Not being able to target them and the reduced damage and healing keeps these guys active all game.

I will always have a pick axe abberant unit though since these guys are so good at killing any type of target. They also get the most mileage from the abomanant sicne they have double the attacks of hammer abbs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
True and the bonus to hit can't be looked over either

Yea I toss a banner in my shotgun unit and they do surprisingly well in combat near him.

I can vouch for the Abominant being very efficient, i recently had a couple games against death guard and I ambushed him near a demon prince.

That game my opponent failed three psychic tests because of the familiar and he killed the Demon prince and later on bloat drone im one round of combat. Hes insane.

How much damage could an Abominant + Abberants do to a baneblade chassis i wonder

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
I can vouch for the Abominant being very efficient, i recently had a couple games against death guard and I ambushed him near a demon prince.

That game my opponent failed three psychic tests because of the familiar and he killed the Demon prince and later on bloat drone im one round of combat. Hes insane.

How much damage could an Abominant + Abberants do to a baneblade chassis i wonder

Abominant is 3 attacks at S12, AP-3, WS 3+, d6 damage (floor of 3), correct?

Aberrants are either 2 attacks at WS 4+, S10, AP-3, damage 3, or 2 attacks at WS 3+, S5, AP-2, damage d3 and 2 attacks at WS 3+, S5, AP-1 (-4 on 6s to wound) damage 1, right?

And both of them do two hits on a hit roll of 6, thanks to the Abominant.

Abominant does 5/6 hits per swing, 2/3 wounds per hit, 5/6 unsaved per wound, and 4 damage per unsaved wound.
Aberrants do 2/3 hits per Hammer swing, 2/3 wounds per hit, 5/6 unsaved per wound, and 3 damage per unsaved wound.
Aberrants do 5/6 hits per Pick swing, 1/3 wounds per hit, 2/3 unsaved per wound, and 2 damage per unsaved wound. Plus 5/6 hits per Rending Claw swing, 1/6 wounds at AP-1 and 1/6 wounds at AP-4 per hit, 1/2 unsaved per AP-1 and 1/1 per AP-4, and 1 damage per unsaved wound.

Altogether...

Abominant does 1.85 damage per attack.
Hammerants do 1.11 damage per attack.
Pickants do .37 per Pick attack and .21 per Claw attack, for .58 total per attack.

Against a 26 wound Baneblade, you need...
An Abominant and 18.42 Hammerants or 35.26 Pickants to kill (26 wounds).
An Abominant and 13.02 Hammerants or 24.91 Pickants to drop to third tier (20 wounds).
An Abominant and 6.71 Hammerants or 12.84 Pickants to drop to second tier (13 wounds).

A full Chimera of 9 Hammerants and an Abominant do an average of 15.54 damage to a Baneblade, and have the following odds. (Thanks Anydice!)

97.04% chance of bracketing it once (13 wounds).
78.91% chance of bracketing it twice (20 wounds).
49.32% chance of killing it (26 wounds).

Edit: Let's add a Primus!

Abominant does 1 hit per swing, 2/3 wounds per hit, 5/6 unsaved per wound, and 4 damage per unsaved wound.
Aberrants do 5/6 hits per Hammer swing, 2/3 wounds per hit, 5/6 unsaved per wound, and 3 damage per unsaved wound.
Aberrants do 1 hits per Pick swing, 1/3 wounds per hit, 2/3 unsaved per wound, and 2 damage per unsaved wound. Plus 1 hit per Rending Claw swing, 1/6 wounds at AP-1 and 1/6 wounds at AP-4 per hit, 1/2 unsaved per AP-1 and 1/1 per AP-4, and 1 damage per unsaved wound.

Altogether...

Abominant does 2.22 damage per attack.
Hammerants do 1.39 damage per attack.
Pickants do .44 per Pick attack and .25 per Claw attack, for .69 total per attack.

A Chimera of 8 Hammerants, 1 Abominant, and 1 Primus do an average of (discounting the Primus' attacks) 28.9 wounds, enough to kill a Baneblade chassis! And their odds of doing the things are... (Thanks again, Anydice!)

99.19% chance of bracketing it once (13 wounds).
90.54% chance of bracketing it twice (20 wounds).
68.43% chance of killing it (26 wounds).

Edit: Don't Chimeras go up to 12? I'm a dumb.

Odds are actually, with a Primus, Abominant, and 10 Hammerants...

99.95% chance of bracketing once.
97.47% chance of bracketing twice.
87.61% chance of killing.

Odds are actually, with an Abominant and 10 Hammerants...

98.33% chance of bracketing once.
85.95% chance of bracketing twice.
60.74% chance of killing.

Thats a lot of damage, I might need to get more abberants.

Thanks for the math

With the changes to Cult Ambush and the hint that GW seems to want to make the game longer by decreasing how important turn 1 is, I have to wonder how strong a blob of shotguns will be in the future. I mean I love the idea as it is, and it seems like it could be solid in the future if you prefer to play more aggressive since the S4 shots are better than the S3 autogun....

Basically, I mainly wonder if building shotguns is worth it under the assumption that they'll be taking away the ability to psuedo-deep strike in favor of something else.