Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 LordofHats wrote:
The FBI? Things getting interesting. There's a lot of things that have been revealed by this specific incident that point to the possibility of rampant police corruption in Salt Lake.

Good that will go great with my popcorn.

 d-usa wrote:
The cop had the same right to access the patient as any cop has to walk into your home to draw blood from you: none.

A hospital room is a private space, and police can and should be denied access to an area where a patient has a right of privacy. Cops need warrants or probable cause to even enter the hospital room, and that's not even talking about the blood draw at all.

We should probably lock the thread by now. We have multiple people explain why, for multiple reasons, the officer was acting unprofessionally and illegally. We also have one guy whose argument boils down to "he has a 'do whatever I want and get away with it badge' so there nurse was wrong". The past three pages have been repeat and rinse of the same argument.

I believe there is no more pointin talking to him about it since no amount of pointing to the laws against what the cop wanted to do is doing any good.

I don't think the thread should be locked just because one individual seems incapable of understanding the situation, since there are other interesting things coming into play with this story, such as a request put out now for FBI involvement:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/09/08/after-utah-nurses-violent-arrest-local-prosecutors-ask-fbi-to-help-investigate-police/?utm_term=.c49770ef567e

I'm sure Xenomancer will claim that if you don't allow a police officer to search your home without a warrant, you should be arrested for impeding an investigation...

 skyth wrote:
I'm sure Xenomancer will claim that if you don't allow a police officer to search your home without a warrant, you should be arrested for impeding an investigation...

I'd say just let him remain with his opinion. More space than it's worth has been wasted in this thread citing laws and court decisions showing the cop acted illegally and he still doesn't understand. At this stage further discussion with him about it is pointless.

 Desubot wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
The FBI? Things getting interesting. There's a lot of things that have been revealed by this specific incident that point to the possibility of rampant police corruption in Salt Lake.

Good that will go great with my popcorn.

Oh. I see what you did there XD

 skyth wrote:
I'm sure Xenomancer will claim that if you don't allow a police officer to search your home without a warrant, you should be arrested for impeding an investigation...

I can tell you I am very much against police entering someone's home without a warrant. I do know that if a cop could see a crack pipe through my window he could bust my door down - that's just the way it is. I can also tell you that this story isn't portraying the story correctly in the media. I feel compelled to defend this man because he is being slaughtered by misinformation. Plus it just doesn't smell right to me. I'm going to bid this thread goodbye. I very well might be wrong about this event. He could just be a bad cop that took frustrations out on an innocent person because he was having a bad day. If that happens - I'll come back to this thread and admitted I was wrong.

The patients room is like your house, no warrant, no entry.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I can also tell you that this story isn't portraying the story correctly in the media. I feel compelled to defend this man because he is being slaughtered by misinformation. Plus it just doesn't smell right to me.

Well, you do have one thing right - his superiors expected him to do a thing they should have known was illegal, in a quite routine manner, but once it hit national news they're throwing him under the bus as the one solely responsible. He's still not a nice guy, judging from his tantrum at the hospital, but he's also a man commanded to do illegal things as part of his work (until the story changed). He was expected to get the blood work as a safeguard for the department and damn civil rights. This failure isn't just on one man but everyone above him is trying to get away from it, leaving the blame on him.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I can also tell you that this story isn't portraying the story correctly in the media. I feel compelled to defend this man because he is being slaughtered by misinformation. Plus it just doesn't smell right to me.

Well, you do have one thing right - his superiors expected him to do a thing they should have known was illegal, in a quite routine manner, but once it hit national news they're throwing him under the bus as the one solely responsible. He's still not a nice guy, judging from his tantrum at the hospital, but he's also a man commanded to do illegal things as part of his work (until the story changed). He was expected to get the blood work as a safeguard for the department and damn civil rights. This failure isn't just on one man but everyone above him is trying to get away from it, leaving the blame on him.

But what about his FEELS?

Spetulhu wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I can also tell you that this story isn't portraying the story correctly in the media. I feel compelled to defend this man because he is being slaughtered by misinformation. Plus it just doesn't smell right to me.

Well, you do have one thing right - his superiors expected him to do a thing they should have known was illegal, in a quite routine manner, but once it hit national news they're throwing him under the bus as the one solely responsible. He's still not a nice guy, judging from his tantrum at the hospital, but he's also a man commanded to do illegal things as part of his work (until the story changed). He was expected to get the blood work as a safeguard for the department and damn civil rights. This failure isn't just on one man but everyone above him is trying to get away from it, leaving the blame on him.

You are 100% correct on this.. there is a video on you tube showing more of the body cam video and the supervisor and his boss needs to get the same punishment. But it looks like the Chief of Police is backing
up the bus and denying anything thing wrong.. As is the Mayor's office..

Not that it's anything like this but I used to work in manufacturing and made critical decisions everyday and always included my boss (A VP no less) on all communications. But when something went south he
would act like he didn't know anything and when you told him he was on all the emails, He asked me to call him directly next time to make the correct decision.. Of course when something happened he
was never able to be reached. Just shows you that in today's world don't help your fellow man.. save yourself.. It's really sad ....

Relapse wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
The cop had the same right to access the patient as any cop has to walk into your home to draw blood from you: none.

A hospital room is a private space, and police can and should be denied access to an area where a patient has a right of privacy. Cops need warrants or probable cause to even enter the hospital room, and that's not even talking about the blood draw at all.

We should probably lock the thread by now. We have multiple people explain why, for multiple reasons, the officer was acting unprofessionally and illegally. We also have one guy whose argument boils down to "he has a 'do whatever I want and get away with it badge' so there nurse was wrong". The past three pages have been repeat and rinse of the same argument.

I believe there is no more pointin talking to him about it since no amount of pointing to the laws against what the cop wanted to do is doing any good.

I don't think the thread should be locked just because one individual seems incapable of understanding the situation, since there are other interesting things coming into play with this story, such as a request put out now for FBI involvement:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/09/08/after-utah-nurses-violent-arrest-local-prosecutors-ask-fbi-to-help-investigate-police/?utm_term=.c49770ef567e

Closing threads because of one individual is what Dakka does best.


If the FBI were to investigate an entire department, going back years to look for a pattern of abuse of power, every time incidents like this happened, incidents like this would probably happen a lot less frequently.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
You are wrong. 100% wrong. She has the right to stop him. She has the right to throw him out of the Hospital if she feels it is having a negative impact on her patients. Nurse > Police when it comes to patient care.

I feel like this should be basic common knowledge. Outside of exceptional circumstances (which this was not) nurse on duty should absolutely trump dumbarse cop.

Both the Watch Commander on Duty and the detective have been put on leave, as of 1 September - the day the criminal investigation began

My favorite bit -

The nurse responds by telling Tracy that he has already been given pain medication, which would show up in the blood draw.

“If we’re breaking the law,” Tracy tells Wubbels, “If we’re doing wrong, there are civil remedies. It’s called taking fruit of the poisonous tree. If we took his blood illegally, it all goes away, alright? So there are civil remedies.”

Yeah... throw them both to the dogs. 'It's okay if we break the law, because if we get caught, we won't be able to use it anyway'....

This is why body cams and mics are needed - when the cops are innocent, it protects them, when the cops try these kinds of shenanigans, it protects the public.

The Auld Grump

Paid leave - aka a vacation.

I figured they'd have given him something considering his burns. Man, that cop is dirty. Poor man would have had a heck of a time clearing his name from being "under the influence", and I bet they knew it.

It could be an innocent mistake by the police department. It could be an attempt by the police to avoid liability for conducting a high speed chase that got an innocent person injured.

We will never know...

 d-usa wrote:
It could be an innocent mistake by the police department. It could be an attempt by the police to avoid liability for conducting a high speed chase that got an innocent person injured.

We will never know...

Unless, of course, it goes to trial.

Or has, you know... been recorded on video - where the officer was specifically and repeatedly told that he didn't have the authority. (Whoops.)

I am betting on the officers just thinking they could get away with it.(Read the article I linked to above, where the Lt. is talking about 'the fruit of the poisonous tree' - they cannot claim ignorance.)

The Auld Grump

 Frazzled wrote:
Paid leave - aka a vacation.

While I'd like to see this SoB literally thrown to the curb, I always found this complaint weird. If someone is under investigation, what would be more ideal ? You don't want them working at the station less they muddle with it, and if they they're gone that prevents them from doing any more damage before it's over. BUt investigations and trials can take weeks or even months, and months without pay is not exactly a good way to treat your employee in any job. Not every case is as open and shut as this one.

I think it's less about the paid leave while under investigation, and more about the paid leave being the only punishment of any kind for many of them.

 Frazzled wrote:
Paid leave - aka a vacation.

Same old same old. Set aside the bullets and the potential stabbings and law enforcement arguably has the best job security in the country. You can violate constitutional laws, do things that'll get other people set to jail, literally beat people and arrest them for getting blood on your clothes, hell you can even rob people with a badge for years, intimidate all the witnesses into shutting up, get your own criminal case thrown out, and and retire. For cops paychecks and benefits are like real life plot armor.

And that's just examples from Chicago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
I think it's less about the paid leave while under investigation, and more about the paid leave being the only punishment of any kind for many of them.

Even when they do get harsher punishments, lots of officers are allowed to retire with full pensions and benefits regardless of why they aren't on the force anymore. I wish my retirement was so bullet proof I could beat a customer within an inch of his life and still get it. You pretty much have to commit a crime from start to finish in full view of a recording device to actually get fired without benefits and even then you can commit full on assault and battery under the influence and get 2 years probation and community service.

Also an example from Chicago. What can I saw. The Chicago PD is really bad at hiding their dirty laundry.

 d-usa wrote:
I think it's less about the paid leave while under investigation, and more about the paid leave being the only punishment of any kind for many of them.

Fair enough, and I can certainly agree to that

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Paid leave - aka a vacation.

While I'd like to see this SoB literally thrown to the curb, I always found this complaint weird. If someone is under investigation, what would be more ideal ? You don't want them working at the station less they muddle with it, and if they they're gone that prevents them from doing any more damage before it's over. BUt investigations and trials can take weeks or even months, and months without pay is not exactly a good way to treat your employee in any job. Not every case is as open and shut as this one.

well in the private realm, they would be suspended without pay or just straight out fired given what occurred.

The biggest problem is not that they are on paid leave - but that it took until the video hit the public before the leave was required.

If not for that video, the investigation would never have even begun.

The Auld Grump

Surely there's some crappy jobs with no responsibility they can do while being investigated to avoid wasting tax payer money for them to be on paid leave.

I've been out of the loop. Is that the guys punishment? Paid leave?

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I've been out of the loop. Is that the guys punishment? Paid leave?

No, just on leave during the investigation. Punishments, if any, will be meted out after the investigations conclude.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I've been out of the loop. Is that the guys punishment? Paid leave?

No, just on leave during the investigation. Punishments, if any, will be meted out after the investigations conclude.

Ah I see. My instinct tells me that ultimately sweet f.a will happen to him. After all, if other cops can perform summary executions without punishment, why bother punishing this one just for trying to illegally take blood.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Surely there's some crappy jobs with no responsibility they can do while being investigated to avoid wasting tax payer money for them to be on paid leave.

Do you expect this poor cop to go out and find work to survive? Heavens to Betsy, how uncivilized.

But seriously, McDonald's and Wal-Mart are always hiring. Maybe cops would think about what they are doing or learn the law if we stopped punishing them with paid vacations.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Surely there's some crappy jobs with no responsibility they can do while being investigated to avoid wasting tax payer money for them to be on paid leave.

Do you expect this poor cop to go out and find work to survive? Heavens to Betsy, how uncivilized.

But seriously, McDonald's and Wal-Mart are always hiring. Maybe cops would think about what they are doing or learn the law if we stopped punishing them with paid vacations.

It's matter of collective bargaining. While the video clearly shows how Payne and Tracy behaved the video by itself can't be held against them. The video can trigger an investigation and then while they are under investigation they get put on paid leave because until the investigation concludes they haven't been found to have done anything wrong. The department can't punish cops who haven't been found to have done anything wrong yet so they get paid suspension until the internal investigation is done and then depending on the findings of the investigation they may or may not be punished. If they are punished at all they may contest the punishment and the investigation and they may get cleared and reinstated or it may go to court. The video of their actions, by itself, can't actually get them fired, it only sets in motion an investigation that might lead to them being fired.

For what it's worth, many departments have crap pay and officers rely heavily on overtime to make ends meet. So paid leave with "only" regular pay and the resulting loss of overtime is at least some punishment.