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I like oldcrons more, but I feel either way a planetary invasion from them would be cold, methodical, and overwhelming. Say they appear in orbit for whatever reason, perhaps billions of years ago that planet was a weapons/robots cache, or what have you. The necrons suddenly appear in orbit, local system cutters and patrol ships rush in to try and defend or evacuate the governor. The necrons ships take a peppering of Lance fire and then the cutters are destroyed in beams of green energy.
The attention of the commanding necron lord is drawn planet-ward. What's this? Billions of life forms are crawling over this planet that used to belong to the Necrons? They are arming orbital defense platforms and mobilizing troops? They must be cleaned and this planet made pure again before we move on.
As for the nuts and bolts, I see the invasion on the ground proceeding much like the planetary invasion in "The Chrosicles of Riddick". A vastly more numerous and uncaring foe descends. A PDF gun crew gets of some lucky shots inside their hardened defense laser silo, suddenly there is a bright flash and the rooms of the bunker are filled with skeletal robots taking aim with eldrich weapons. Tanks and troops that are mobilizing are suddenly being strafed by necron flying croissants, as monoliths appear around them disgorging Warriors directly into the fray. Necrons don't care how many of them are disabled in the attack, they just slowly, methodically, soullessly reap a bloody harvest on the inhabitants. When they are done, everything is teleported back up and they move on. It was just another calculated task fufilled.
“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors
"The people" (as in civilians, not soldiers) will only fight if there is something they care deeply about. This is 40k. The people are controlled by fear and ignorance. They will be utterly apathetic about their leadership, and way too afraid to rise up against any invading Imperial force, let alone against the angels (Marines) of the Emperor Himself. The common people won't care if their leadership is killed and replaced. They most likely won't even know who their leadership is in the first place!
40k is a feudal system. For the peasant, it does not matter who lords it over him. It just means paying taxes to a different guy. Life remains exactly the same. In 40k, only way you will get an entire population to fight invaders is if those invaders are heretics or xenos (and their religion will inspire them to fanaticism) or when they feel the invaders threaten their religion (like if it is some cult).
You're getting bogged down in specifics. It doesn't matter if it's gangers, or a cult, or the personal guard of a planetary governer. It doesn't matter who on earth on a planet has been persuaded to rebel, 100 Marines is utterly insufficient to pacify even a single hive.
If the Marines are called in, we're assuming that the situation is too difficult for the Guard or PDF to resolve. This implies a significant amount of anti-Imperial feeling, so whoever it is will almost certainly be opposed to the Marines even if they're also opposed to each other (such as the examples you've posited about cults and suchlike).
The point I was making in the example is 99.9% of the population of a single hive could shoot themselves in the head as soon as the Marines arrive and the remaining 0.1% of the population would still pose an insurmountable threat to the Marines even if they weren't organised in the slightest.
Of a single hive. Not even a planet. A single hive. Most planets worth a damn have multiple.
And that is 10,000,000 ganger who are all spread out over a huge area, belong to a myriad rival gangs that hate each other much more than the Astartes, have no way of knowing that they actually outnumber the Astartes by so much, possess no way or desire to effectively coordinate military operations with each other and have no real desire to fight Astartes. The Marines meanwhile can bring all of their force to bear at once and have perfect coordination. They will take out the gangers group by group. Once a couple of gangs have been offed in this way, word will spread that the Space Marines have come to purge all gangs, and all of the remaining gangers are going to run and hide. A conflict like this would be a cakewalk for the Astartes.
A small, well-drilled and coordinated force with high morale can always beat any force that is uncoordinated, ill-disciplined and has low morale, no matter its size.
The point of scale is that it flat-out doesn't matter if the gangers are organised or even motivated to fight the Marines beyond taking the occasional pot-shot at them (which come on, some are bound to do if they come muscling into their turf).
We accounted for all of this cowardice, lack of organisation, infighting, lack of motivation by assuming that measly 10% of the entire population of gangers only get a single shot at the Marines. Not 'each of those 10% get into a firefight with the Marines', it's 'get a single shot'. 90% of the gangers could shoot themselves in the head instantly, and then 10% of the gangers could shoot a Marine and then shoot themselves in the head afterwards and they would still emerge triumphant quite easily.
The reason I'm positing this ridiculous situation isn't because I think it's realistic, but more to display just how hopelessly outgunned the Marines are so it doesn't even matter what other advantages they have it simply isn't enough.
If you want justification as to why the gangers might shoot at the Marines, I'd wager it's because they don't know who they are. Marines are legends and myths to most of the 40k population. If a ganger sees a heavily armed and armoured mob of dudes come through their territory their first instinct is going to be that it's another gang muscling in on their turf.
Look at the Battle of Mogadishu for example, where a group of about 150 US soldiers got into an entire hostile city filled with thousands of insurgents and came out on top, fulfilled their mission and left hundreds of dead insurgents in their wake while suffering only a few casualties themselves. Now imagine the US soldiers are Space Marines and the insurgents may be with many more, but they are not unified and not motivated by a radical religious ideology. It would be a total bloodbath.
Mogadishu is an interesting example as it's probably pretty close to what an actual Marine raid would be like.
The thing is, the First Battle of Mogadishu (which I assume is the one you're talking about) was a clusterfeth that rapidly spiralled out of control and ended up with a failed mission. It was intended to be a quick smash-and-grab lighting strike to capture enemy leadership with overwhelming force in a localised area. 160 Marines, 19 aircraft and 12 vehicles. Precisely what Marines' tactics are and roughly the same supporting vehicles.
What actually happened is shortly into the operation two of the Marines' helicopters were shot down by RPGs. The mission quickly evolved into a stalemate between the Marines and Somali militants when they became trapped within the city, with what was intended to be a 1 hour mission developing into an extended firefight overnight. The next day, a far larger relief force consisting of some 100 vehicles was dispatched on a rescue mission which was successful in evacuating one of the crash sites (the other had been overrun during the night). US casualties were 19 deaths, 73 wounded and one captured. The militant leader was not captured.
The Somali militia suffered heavy casualties (although not enough to actually dent their forces a great deal). The US suffered over 50% casualties, failed their mission and had to be bailed out by a far larger force.
Ynneadwraith wrote: Oh, and do you want to be the ganger who can brag to his mates that you killed an Astartes? Hell yeah you do.
No, you want to be the ganger that actually lives to brag about killing an astartes. Actually killing an astartes is not needed for that, surviving however is...
Which is pretty easy when you have the capability of killing the Marines hundreds of times over even if only 10% of you ever land a shot on them. They're completely and totally outmatched.
chromedog wrote: You identify the largest population centres, and neutralise them FIRST with orbital strikes. Sure, you won't kill them all, but it WILL galvanise the "capitols" into action. Those can be found by monitoring local communications for that area.
(If they can travel here from other worlds, they should be able to eavesdrop on communications from a fair distance out. Our over-reliance on the "nationalism" thing is plainly obvious from our broadcasting detritus).
Marines are used for precision assaults where you want that patch of ground. You don't assault with a squad or section at a time (neither do marines). If they have access to assassins, then infiltration and disruption are also tools at their disposal. Guard are usually used to hold it, but the orbital strikes/marine shock assaults will take them. You don't throw them into a meatgrinder (that's the guard's job).
Especially when you can also teleport forces into the beach-head.
Military bases tend towards large and sprawling (in order to contain the masses of hardware and personnel required to maintain them).
Any resistance we can offer to an orbital attack is minimal at best (we have chemical fuelled rockets with nukes. They have shields - and the fact that nukes don't work as well in vacuum).
That said, GW have never been good at "scale of conflict" (or scale in general) and their numbers in the game don't work in a "realism" sense.
An empire of a million worlds, and only a thousand chapters (of a nominal thousand men-under-arms each) is pitifully small for the empire of its size.
You're absolutely right here with how they'd pacify us, and it would probably work.
The issue you do point out is that we are not a target the Imperium would ever send a Marine force to pacify. Marines are a very finite resource as you say, and wouldn't be wasted on a backwater like us that could be pacified by a naval frigate from orbit.
So we're back to the situation that 100 (or even a 1000) Marines are only capable of pacifying planets that they are wasted on, and are completely incapable of pacifying planets that they are required to pacify.
Fat Necron wrote: So this thread quickly pigeon holed itself, didn't it? I only made a quip about the Space Marines cause, well, it's simply too far-fetched to believe. Everyone forgets about the local PDF forces which I frankly believe aren't a rabbling band of morons. These are still trained soldiers defending their Hive against a force threatening to disable the life support. Whether or not they're Astarte's, millions, possibly even billions will perish as a result. Myths and legends be damned, that genocide can't happen. So in those circumstances, there's the additional worry of PDF... BUT ENOUGH ABOUT THIS!
Haha welcome to dakka still, I don't really mind when topics meander away from their initial premise (provided they're still relatively relevant and discussing an interesting topic). I've been on forums where they're really hot on shooting down topics that go even slightly off topic and people just stop talking to each other.
I'm more curious about the others. Isn't anyone else even mildly curious about the deeper logistical know-how and reasons that might prompt a Xeno's faction to invade/burn/fondle another planet?
For instance, in the lore, there have been cases where Necron's will attack entire worlds and enslave/murder their populations. These are extraterrestrial far beyond our own understanding or comprehension. Our own moral values and logic might appear completely appalling to them. Where we're basically night and day in almost, if not all, aspect compared to the Necron's. That said, our methods to planetary invasion could be considered counter-productive to their own. In all technicality, these are ancient immortal beings who's own history could be considered a tapestry with ours a footnote.
Let me propose an example: The Imperium will immediately establish naval superiority or at least equality. That could be mind boggling when proposed to a Necron. How Necron's traverse immense gulfs of space far quicker than the Imperium, I'd assume they'd easily be more organized, better prepared. I'd imagine there'd be scouting measures in these scenario's but not blatant ones. Personally, their mastery over technology and those Crypteks, it wouldn't go beyond reasoning a simple meteor could be that very scout. Not even the Mechanicus can fathom their technology, so it's within reason an invasion by Necron's would be a swift blow. They gather the Imperium's ship coordinates, arrange ridiculous algorythms for potential manuevers a thousand times over, and wipe any fleet opposition out with cold precision.
Perhaps I'm a tad biased (very) but I highly doubt nor consider any prolonged naval engagements. Their fleet would appear with a sudden, each strategically place for maximum effieciency and cripple the Imperial/Other fleet in moments. (That's assuming each fleet is equal.) An real defense or resistance would have to be endured on ground, which again, isn't favorable yet humans/orks/other races have a knack for survival.
All my predictions for a planned and coordinated Necron Planetary Invasion, I'm not exactly sure how the ground war would play out. We have accounts of Overlords using a Space Marine Monestary as gauntlet for his courts entertainment. Other encounters have a lone Necron Lord herding oodles of Flayed Ones into populated area's for a new city wide butchery. (Mystery meat is on special.) We can assume once the trivial matter of orbital engagement is resolved, efficiency might fly right out the door. The defenders can't flee, their resources are easily recycled in mass, so what becomes of the ground war? (If the hypothetical naval engagement played out as I've described. Feel free to challenge the naval exchange for the sake of debate.)
Granted, this all entirely comes down to which particular Dynasty is attacking but I'd rather leave that up for debate. I favor the notion we expand on this by creating scenario's between an eccentric Dynasty, a ruthless Dynasty, and tactical Dynasty. Each one is broad enough for a blanket summary of what could or could not happen... Probably not the eccentric Dynasty but that's for those who want to have fun.
This is probably pretty accurate to how Newcrons would invade, and also exemplifies just how OP the Newcron fluff has made them. It's a case of Ward applying his 'Ultramarines are the bestest and doesn't afraid of anything' to a whole faction.
It's evocative, but offers no real scope for them to ever be defeated. Not just defeated in the long term (as it's doubtful the Chaos Gods or Tyranids can be defeated, dpending on their size), but even in individual battles.
Unless, I suppose, you use tactics that their algorithms can't predict. Namely, scrying the future via psychic powers. The Necrons have been stated to have zero understanding of how the warp actually works. They have excellent knowledge of how it interacts with realspace, but no real way of finding out more about it. So, predicting the future via war powers would be something that could scupper all of their algorithms as it sets off a whole chain of events that they couldn't predict. They can react, but that massive advantage is nullified.
Explains why they hate the Eldar so much it's also supported by the fluff of the War in Heaven which stated that the Old Ones had to resort to weaponising the warp to gain an advantage over the C'Tan and the Necrons. Also fits with the Eldar being one of said weapons.
Kinda Oldcrons kinda not. I've been working on my own lesser pantheon of C'tan for my devoted Necron's. While the new lore does open doors for character in the dynasties, I'm still leaning towards the killer robots in space. Technically speaking, when they were ordered into stasis, they were technically still at war. To me, I'm wondering why awakening Tomb Worlds aren't just continuing this war. You got the Eldar and friends, Orks, which are Old One creations. So they should immediately be mauling them cause, well, those are probably their most recent/fondest memories. The Imperium, Chaos, and Tyranids (possibly) could be chalked up as Old One creations.
It nags at me, as you can tell, but that's why we have head canon and ignore bits of fluff we don't like. I personally hope once the Silent King returns, a lot of Necron will bend the knee to the last Triarch and finished what was started so long ago. I get goose bumps just thinking about it.
Good man I definitely see the benefits of more characterisation of Necrons. I just feel it was done in an overly hammy way for the 5th ed. Newcrons (I gather it's got significantly better in later releases).
Agree with you completely that they should really be continuing to persecute the war they were fighting when they went to sleep. All of this squabbling over territory seems to me to be something that the puny mortals do, building sandcastles that will only crumble over time. Pointless.
I also like the idea that they could drop subtle hints that other races were meddled with by the Old Ones (specifically Mankind) by having the Necrons persecute them as well. Personally I'd leave the Tyranids out of it, but that's because I like the fact that they're something completely alien. Otherwise it seems a little like everything in the universe is rooted in the milky way. Like how everything on TV happens in the USA
There could also be some really neat little connections if they start to persecute the followers of the Chaos Gods...
Perhaps the Gods are actually remnants of the Old Ones. Perhaps they themselves were weapons unleashed by them. Perhaps none of that and they're only persecuting them because their followers are human. Neat!
Perhaps I worded that wrong, what I meant to say was the CWE might have a more intimate relation with the webway. A huge difference between them and their sadomasochist cousins is their use of Wraithbone Constructs and psychic abilities. CWE are famed for ridiculous levels of psychic power, which as we know, is drawn from the Warp. Where the webway is located inside the warp and their constant references of reliance on said webway, it's easy to assume they traverse it quite often. The Seers and referenced reliance implies a deeper depth of knowledge.
As for the Dark Eldar, I'd easily say they're more technologically advanced. They've plucked stars from the galaxy just to light Commorragh. Where they don't have Wraithbone, they've managed to craft equivalent armor. Because they've turned away the psychic gifts, other, perhaps more ingenious methods were found. And before you mention it, if you do, I'm aware Craftworlds are possibly the equal to Eldar-made planets but that was a long time ago. The methods and gifts used to create such behemoths might not even be available yet here we have, and I say again, their cousins pulling freaking SUN! out of the galaxy. The feat alone is unimaginable...
Oh shoot, I don't know why I went on that long tangent thinking we were in disagreement. After I read your reply, I went to gander the codex's just to emphasize the point and yet I somehow started babbling on. Eh, maybe someone will enjoy it.
Hah, I do that all the time
I'm with you that the CWE would have an advantage in understanding the webway due to their psychic potential. I sort of have the headcanon that the webway itself is somehow alive. It's a construct of the Old Ones, and the Old Ones had a penchant for creating living beings to do their bidding (Eldar/Orks). So, there's a possibility that their tech actually blends technology and biology to the point that it's all technically alive somehow. Similar to the border between a brain and AI, but on the other side of the journey. When an AI becomes so advanced that it's approaching the point where it's indistinguishable from something biological.
Also agree with you that both the CWE and DE are shadows of what they were before technologically speaking. They've both gone through cataclysms that make the Horus Heresy look like child's play (and at the same time, no doubt). They're in exactly the same boat as the Imperium, scrabbling away in the technological ruins of their forebears.
Beyond torture and sodomy, the slaves may prove a more crucial role in Commorragh. When I read about the Thorn Keep (I think that's the name) mere humans couldn't sustain it's infrastructure due to poisons. The Archon needed hardier slaves, thus, kidnapped a bunch of Orks. That suggests a more menial role for slaves, as a whole instead of just targets for javelin practice. One Archon's power could grow to such a height that risking a raid on a Hive City might become necessary. However, I do believe he'd gather considerable allies in such a venture, especially witches. Underhives are notorious for breeding some badass's. While the scuffle might be a bit dragged on, I'm sure the Wych cults would appreciate the offering... Plus, bagging a few Space Marines could be considered gravy.
What's that, a half-born wanna-be Archon was bisected from the crotch up? Oh my, his retinue was vaporized by a Plasma cannon?... Oh joy, dibs on the raiders!
I should stop now before I start derailing myself further. Whenever I get the chance to talk in-depth about 40K Xeno's lore, my mind wanders everywhere.
From what I've read a lot of Commorragh's industry is built upon slaves so you're right there's a massive reliance on them beyond sustenance.
You're also right to assume that large-scale realspace raids aren't usually the doing of a single kabal. From what I understand it's usually one kabal announces an opportunity they've spotted and then goes about spreading the word to other kabals, hiring wych cults, currying favour with haemonculus covens etc. etc. Petty small-scale raids I'm sure they could enact themselves, but for something a juicy as a hive I'd expect a lot more politicking.
agurus1 wrote: I like oldcrons more, but I feel either way a planetary invasion from them would be cold, methodical, and overwhelming. Say they appear in orbit for whatever reason, perhaps billions of years ago that planet was a weapons/robots cache, or what have you. The necrons suddenly appear in orbit, local system cutters and patrol ships rush in to try and defend or evacuate the governor. The necrons ships take a peppering of Lance fire and then the cutters are destroyed in beams of green energy.
The attention of the commanding necron lord is drawn planet-ward. What's this? Billions of life forms are crawling over this planet that used to belong to the Necrons? They are arming orbital defense platforms and mobilizing troops? They must be cleaned and this planet made pure again before we move on.
As for the nuts and bolts, I see the invasion on the ground proceeding much like the planetary invasion in "The Chrosicles of Riddick". A vastly more numerous and uncaring foe descends. A PDF gun crew gets of some lucky shots inside their hardened defense laser silo, suddenly there is a bright flash and the rooms of the bunker are filled with skeletal robots taking aim with eldrich weapons. Tanks and troops that are mobilizing are suddenly being strafed by necron flying croissants, as monoliths appear around them disgorging Warriors directly into the fray. Necrons don't care how many of them are disabled in the attack, they just slowly, methodically, soullessly reap a bloody harvest on the inhabitants. When they are done, everything is teleported back up and they move on. It was just another calculated task fufilled.
Yeah this seems pretty accurate
Another thing is that the planet probably wouldn't see it coming. The vast majority of potential threats travel via the warp, so warning systems would likely be looking out for telltale bow-waves within the warp for incoming vessels. The Necrons travel via an alcubierre drive, which as far as I can tell is unique in the 40k universe. The poor planet wouldn't know they were coming until they hit the system.
Similar thing with the Eldar too I suppose (of any variety). Webway travel would probably mean that they'd pop out planetside or in close orbit with very little forewarning.
CWE I expect would rarely undertake a true planetary invasion. I'd expect targeted strikes seemingly at random because their main goal is to tip events in the present that will butterfly-effect into positive futures for them. The only time they'd mount a proper invasion is recapturing maiden worlds which they defend jealously. To be honest, I can see why the Imperium at large doesn't really distinguish between the types of Eldar. Both of the main factions conduct targeted strikes seemingly at random dropping out of webway portals without warning. Both of them rarely conduct a proper invasion, but when they do it likely follows the same pattern of bogies dropping in planetside without warning. The only real difference in the Imperial experience is that one lot has spikes on and the other doesn't...
Orks have some interesting quirks too. Seeing as their principle reason for war is to have fun, I'd espect that they'd favour planetary engagements even when they could conceivably bombard from orbit. Unless of course their love of dakka extends to colossal spaceship guns. A frequent tactic for Orks is actually to crash a Rok (basically an inhabited asteroid fitted with stardrives) into the surface of a planet and then disgorging the Ork population for a good scrap. So basically Ork invasions would be pretty brutal. You basically have to withstand an asteroid strike before the actual warfare has even started.
Oh, and just for completeness, Space Marine's tactics of rapid strikes against leadership and orbital bombardment would work rather nicely I expect provided they had the numbers (or IG/serf backup) to actually match the scale of the enemies they'd be facing. Tactics are sound. Just need more men.
The Imperium has some tricks up their sleeve too regarding planetary invasion. Massive orbital bombardment from a naval presence that you could only even hope to outnumber locally (and even then, if it's a bona fide crusade then that's thoroughly unlikely) followed by a quite literal pink tide of Imperial Guard. There's a reason the Imperium has clung on for this long despite the horrors they're facing. Their tactics and technology might be crude, but it's the scale thing again. In the vast majority of offensive conflicts, they're the gangers in the example I gave.
I would however think that Dark Eldar would be highly unlikely to pick a world that could genuinely defend itself. Put up a decent fight yeah, but not really potentially win, so the above is probably moot in that case.
The DE mantra is 'smash and grab.' It depends on what they are looking for, but if it is easily availible on lightly defended planets that is probably where they are going to get it. Some of the things they want only exist on worlds that are highly defended. If it was worth enough, they would raid Terra. I believe they stole something from Mars.
But they aren't going to pacify a planet, they are just going to distract its defenses, land a small force that is locally overwheling, take what they want and then leave.
OH! Another question: Would the Dark Eldar target the Astropath's or do they even know about them?
They know what they are but have no need for them. Might be one of the things they kill at the outset of the raid or it might be something they manipulate to further their gains. Use a call for help to lure hard military elements away from their real target.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
2017/09/11 18:54:05
Subject: Re:Planetary Invasions - Help Me Understand
Necrons as far as I know follow no standard plan of invasion, each dynasty have a prefered method of engaging their enemy.
Fall of Orpheus, Dark Creed (Word Bearer trilogy features a necron invasion) and Fall of Damnos are prime examples of how necrons invade.
"The people" (as in civilians, not soldiers) will only fight if there is something they care deeply about. This is 40k. The people are controlled by fear and ignorance. They will be utterly apathetic about their leadership, and way too afraid to rise up against any invading Imperial force, let alone against the angels (Marines) of the Emperor Himself. The common people won't care if their leadership is killed and replaced. They most likely won't even know who their leadership is in the first place!
40k is a feudal system. For the peasant, it does not matter who lords it over him. It just means paying taxes to a different guy. Life remains exactly the same. In 40k, only way you will get an entire population to fight invaders is if those invaders are heretics or xenos (and their religion will inspire them to fanaticism) or when they feel the invaders threaten their religion (like if it is some cult).
You're getting bogged down in specifics. It doesn't matter if it's gangers, or a cult, or the personal guard of a planetary governer. It doesn't matter who on earth on a planet has been persuaded to rebel, 100 Marines is utterly insufficient to pacify even a single hive.
Yes. It doesn't matter if its gangers, cult or a personal guard. Even though, they may outnumber the Marines by a million to one, they are never all going to be in the same place. The Marines will be. Though their opponents will have a lot more force than the Marines have, the Marines can focus their force much better, which is why they win. The Marines aren't going to be standing around in the open field waiting for all enemy forces to mobilise and surround them. They will go in, strike, and get out before the enemy can react, coordinate and bring his superior force to bear. By the point that happens the Marines have already moved on to the next objective, where the pattern repeats.
Scale is not always relevant. Or rather, the balance can be different on different levels. When the Marines are attacking a certain district in a Hive city, it doesn't matter if I have billions of soldiers spread out across all the other districts and the other hives of the planet. All those soldiers are far away and can't contribute. The only ones who matter are those few soldiers in the direct area of the Marines. The Marines (and this is true for other 'first strike forces' like the DE as well), have the advantage of being able to pick their fights. They can plan their attacks in such a way that they will have superior local force, even if the enemy has a much more superior force on a larger scale.
Two small changes though and it's fixed. Companies are 10-100,000 strong. Wherever Marines go they're acconpanied by serfs, native troops and/or IG regiments that fight alongside but never get recorded in history just like the helots amd thespians at the battle of thermopylae
I quite like that idea. The glory-hound Space Marines are well-known for the victory that was really won with the endless sacrifice of Serfs who are forgotten to history.
Two small changes though and it's fixed. Companies are 10-100,000 strong. Wherever Marines go they're acconpanied by serfs, native troops and/or IG regiments that fight alongside but never get recorded in history just like the helots amd thespians at the battle of thermopylae
I quite like that idea. The glory-hound Space Marines are well-known for the victory that was really won with the endless sacrifice of Serfs who are forgotten to history.
Yeah it's definitely a favourite of mine
Plus, you get kickass conversion opportunities like these Black Templar serfs:
My bad if my replies are a tad delayed. I'm one of those nyanderthals who don't spend too much time online. I have this innate fear of becoming one of those people with their faces glued to their phone.
Well you're not wrong about them being OP. I think this boils down to the fact there isn't exactly too too many of them bumping around. I wholly believe in the theory only 3% of them have truly awoken. Given how expansive the Imperium is and their military prowess (Numerically) I don't think it's feasible for the Necrons to be as aggressive as they'd like. Algorithms or not, simply put, a handful of Tomb Worlds making big waves wouldn't last very wrong.
I say this because I'm theorizing that these same algorithms play against them. From their perspective, it could be assumed they could amass a fleet and overrun them. However they don't truly comprehend how fractured the Imperium actually is. Between that and their grinding bureaucratic system, the response fleet the Necron's could potentially encounter deters them from action. In reality, this possible response fleet would only be a fraction. Whether or not their technology far surpasses the Imperium's own, and arguably other contending races, when a Crusade-sized fleet is bombing their Tomb World into dust there's no real counter. That's just the fleet size, I'm not even going to bother getting into the infantry numbers. It's a well known fact the Imperium drowns their opponents with bodies. The Necron's have probably observed their tactics to such an extent to know every possible doctrine and reaction. However, at the end of the day, only so much can be done to a superior force one-hundred times their own size.
So while at first glance it may appear the Necron's are OP at first glance, I believe the finer details tidy up that thought. If they themselves were a bit more unified (Come on Silent King) they'd pose a critical threat. I'd even wager the Tyranids would target a large, unified Necron faction as they might be considered another predator, of sorts. Though not organic it goes without question a unified Necron Empire might blast all the tasty snacks away.
I do agree with you entirely in regards to the Scrying powers, I just feel compelled to explain (Perhaps debate, if you'd like) that other variables exist beyond Warp-shenanigans.
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The whole ham-fisted newcrons feels like an attempt to make them weaker while appealing to another audience. Think about it, how are loyalist Space Marines and other good guys suppose to contend with star devouring gods and swarms of millions, if not billions of marching killer-robots? They can't, especially when you dive into the logistics. So they balance this by fracturing them and rationalizing by adding more character. While I do agree with this in some respects, it nags at me (As you can tell, I'm incredibly biased). Some of the new lore is quite intriguing. There's a blurb where a single Necron lord leads a horde of flayed ones for great flesh harvests. We can debate how exactly these flayed-ones follow him/her/it but we'll never know why or how. The whole scenario is completely alien to us as it goes against basic morals.
On the other hand, I believe the changes to the Necrons were to make them a touch more human, if that makes any sense. Building Empires and muffing up all the chicken is kinda what we've been doing for centuries. So why not give them the same aspect. Turn them into conquerors, give them underlings, and reinvent the Tomb Kings. From personal experience, I only started collecting models to write my own lore about them which you can't do with soulless killing machines. Their C'Tan masters were set in stone, so you just sorta collected them... But now that's been corrected, which might not be the right word but it's a step forward to progress... Okay, I need to stop ranting and get back on topic. We can continue this over the PM's if you want to discuss this topic more.
My own head-canon goes against the whole 'Warp Gods being Weapons' idea. I rather enjoy them being representations of how gakky every existing race is. On that topic, it'd be interesting how they target particular gods. For conversation sake, lets say the Necrons understand what they are and out of pure bitterness, target them. Nurgle's daemon worlds would be purified via pillars and sudden diseases, depriving him of his filth and connection to his beloved followers. Necron Warriors would march against Khorne followers in prolonged, bloodless engagements-- just a few examples.
Essentially, deprive the gods via material connection and practitioners of said deity.
I'll PM you later regarding the Nids theory. I've gone off topic so many times already, I'm feeling a tad loony.
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When I read about the Webway, it feels like a living, breathing entity. The Emperor himself couldn't caress it back into existence as he would a broken toaster; therefore I believe it's a breathing entity beyond our scope of imagination. To elaborate, there are synthetic life-forms/AI kinda like the Geth. I hypothesize the Webway is similar in that regard... Unfortunately, it's caught a nasty case of STWD.
At some point, when more information is given, I wouldn't mind discussing idea's as to how the Dark Eldar might thwart the advancing daemons trashing their dungeons and opium dens.
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Real-space Raids possibly go beyond just kabals existing in Commorragh. Where we discussed mass slave labor, would it be stretching lore to say those slaves may accompany them? They've been tortured and beaten by these alien tortures to extents that far exceed our own methods, which is an achievement in and of itself. I'm proposing those slaves could be planted into prospective raiding sites as spies. Under the threat of death, perhaps freedom, even wealth, these broken slaves would do their best to destabilize the cities and hives they've been planted in.
Subterfuge does seem like a likely tactic for the Dark Eldar.
Aha! Brilliant thanks for offering a way to square the OP-ness of Necrons tech-wise with their seeming lack of ability to roflstomp all over the galaxy.
They may have algorithms that can work out in infinitely fine detail how conflicts will progress. However, those algorithms are hopelessly out of date. The last foes they fought were the Old Ones, Krork, way-pre-Fall Eldar and whatever other horrors the Old Ones unleashed. They haven't the foggiest idea of the capabilities of any of the current factions from an individual right up to a civilisation level. Hence why they capture people and chop them up it's all study...
I also forget that after the loss of Pariah's from the fluff the Necrons have no way of making new Necrons. Once a Tomb World is destroyed and its warriors ground to dust...there's no way to replace them. In a war of attrition they're woefully ill-equipped to deal with losses. For a race as far-sighted as the Necrons that would absolutely be a consideration.
I like the slight humanisation of the Necrons from a 'your dudes' perspective, but I think it's completely wrong that a bunch of pre-historic undead alien killer robots feels more human than the actual humans in the galaxy. It just doesn't feel like they've got the balance right...
I'm with you on the warp-gods being reflections of the gakky galaxy. I've got a bit of headcanon that they all started off as relatively benevolent deities such as a fertility god (Nurgle), god of learning and knowledge (Tzeentch), god of honour and protection (Khorne) and pleasure (Slaanesh).
It was just another interesting possibility that someone else might like to add to their headcanon I like my 40k background to have multiple possibilities, none of which are stated to be true but all of which just might be...
Also, Khorne must absolutely hate fighting Necrons. They don't bleed, and their guns flay his followers at an atomic level meaning no blood and no skulls. The only thing he'd get is the skulls of fallen Necrons and even they tend to phase out. Most dissatisfying...
Interesting about the webway being some sort of Geth-like conscious collection of code. I'd more imagined it to be a colossal single entity. Sort of like a massive galaxy-spanning beast of burden. Either way, I do like the idea that it's conscious in some way
Yeah I'm waiting for more info to come out about the dysjunction too. From what I gather they've dealt with them before by sealing off the realm where the breach occurred, condemning those within but trapping the daemons. Tricky when the rift occurs right in the heart of the place. Perhaps we'll see a fracturing of Commorragh into smaller satellite realms which Vect has to re-unify.
Love the idea that Dark Eldar raids are sort of presaged by a load of sleeper agents being placed from their slave stock. I'd certainly say that the promise of freedom would be a hell of a motivator for a slave of the DEldar, although I suspect that death would probably be desirable for the exact same reason...
This requires you to know where the head is. Imagine if you flew into earth orbit on a spaceship, and looked down on our planet. Where are you going to send your drop pods with (lets be generous) a total number of a thousand marines?
From orbit we don't have borders. There's no stars on capitals. Some countries have hundreds of miles of urban and semi-urban area just melted together. You're not going to be able to poke Washington DC on an orbital picture and say "that's it, that's the rebel base. And I'm sure skywalker is with them." And even if you do, that's just one of a couple hundred nations! Even if you pacify the leaders, there's no guarantee they were well liked. . .maybe the constituent parts tear themselves up in civil war after you "chop off the head." Brutality only works if people know about it. If you drop pod into London, and butcher the population, how is the rest of the world going to get that communicated?
They could look up the location of governments by connecting to the internet and checking wikipedia. This is not a joke, earth broadcasts so much information you'd be crazy to think that assimilation of information wouldn't be a key part of an invasion.
As for the threat of brutal annihilation, I think doctrinally they make demonstration of power another key habit. They do it in a way that either can be covered by news feeds, or they just take over communications networks and broadcast themselves. A lot of the troubles we might think they would have could potentially be overcome with technology that might come standard on their ships.
Space Marines really do seem like a textbook point of spear unit, that would really only work against existing imperial territory that has rebelled. Someplace you speak the local language, know who the leaders are, and have enough of a cultural heritage with for the average man on the street to get his ass back in line when he hears what happened to Governor Jerkface and the entire governing cabinet. Not that he probably was out of line anyway, since the average hive worlder has zero say in how his government operates.
Very much agree with this. A lot of what they do is respond to "crisis of management" of worlds historically part of the Imperial fold.
The way I understand it, Space Marines don't really "pacify" a world. They have one job, kill that worlds soldiers. The IG come behind them to consolidate the ground the SM took. At that point they also roll in bureaucrats to launch a huge propaganda campaign to start turning the population in the right direction mentally, which could take a couple of generations. It's more of a combined effort by the Imperium.
But! Gonna play devil's advocate and try to rationalize how a single SM chapter can conquer (not pacify) a planet by themselves.
As far as how can a chapter of SM kill off a worlds armies? I'd say its a combination of factors.
For one, they are better trained and equipped than a worlds standard PDF.
Fluff wise, SM are just hard as hell to kill. You have to have something that will penetrate PA, with enough power left, and in a critical enough spot to actually put them down. Outside of a worlds HB, AC, LC, etc., it'll take a massive amount of shots to bring down a single marine, fluff wise. If the SM gets into close combat its usually a slaughter since it would take a massive amount of bodies to bring one down. Which could work except that it'll be hard to get that many bodies in one place. Like a hive city. They can be sectioned off to easily to ever do it so that their numbers can matter. Force concentration, choke points, etc. are vital in military campaigns. History has countless battles where a vastly numerical army was beaten or, at the very least, held at bay by a better trained and equipped force. I mean, we've all seen 300. This goes to the next point, PDF.
In numerous books the PDF, while soldiers, are often depicted as more of a national guard unit. This doesn't necessarily mean they can't fight, but throw in the fact that many of them have never actually fired a shot in anger. So now you have an under equipped army with no combat experience fighting an entire SM chapter which would also include their armor, battle barges, flyers, etc. Not to mention you'd have to throw in the fact that most humans in the 40k universe have an ingrained fear of Astartes. Like, hard to be in their presence without shaking for the average citizen fear.
This doesn't even account for things like terminators or centurions where, in the fluff, they'd be hard to bring down with anything other than a direct shot from a lascannon or stronger weapon which I doubt will be in abundance and most chapters have about 100 terminators.
Now, add in a SM chapter isn't going to deploy piece meal across the planet. That's the concentration of force. They'll pick targets they know they can beat, rapidly deploy, destroy it, then redeploy. They'll do things like take out key communications facilities and leadership. Now that under equipped, poorly trained (by comparison) PDF unit likely wont be able to communicate or have the leadership to coordinate a massed attack where their number would show.
Also, not every city would need to be taken. The SM could just kill the whole city from orbit. That in itself would be a huge shock to any citizens and kill their moral. I mean, they can obliterate a city while you are literally helpless to stop it.
Enemy aircraft. They could be an issue but I don't see why the SM battle barge wouldn't just destroy the majority of it in the opening salvos of an orbital bombarment.
Finally, with communications and leadership compromised, the defending planet would be in a pretty sorry state allowing the SM chapter to pick it apart over time. This is important to remember because this campaign is likely to last months. There may be some form of resistance but if you're whole planet couldn't stop them how can a few bands of uncoordinated citizens do it with whatever they can scrounge together?
Anyways, that was fun. Good way to kill the last 30 minutes at work.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/13 21:43:38
The problem with Oldcrons was you were either mindless slaves of one C'tan...or you were mindless slaves of another C'tan. There was little opportunity for players to make their own themes, while other factions got Craftworlds, Chapters, warbands, Sept worlds, etc... The other problem was Oldcrons being shoehorned into being behind nearly every conspiracy or event, and being set up to be unbeatable: C'tan for example were described as being vulnerable only to large amounts of warp energy such as the Blackstone Fortresses/Talismans of Vaul...which they have effectively neutralized by the Deceiver precipitating the Gothic War.
Newcrons:
By creating dynasties, the Necrons were broken up into less monolithic blocks, and the idea that many of Lords might be insane made them less of an unbeatable foe. The whole portrayal of some of them as "honorable" grates on me but was probably an attempt to make them more likable as protagonists if players have them as an army. The same rationale was probably behind making some Necron Lords focused on rebuilding empires, so they would conquer humans rather than kill everyone. Fracturing the C'tan (and also mentioning more minor C'tan) was to shift the focus onto the Necrons and their Lords rather than less than a handful of C'tan.
It is possible I think to somewhat meld the two. You can still have your C'tan loyalists following their C'tan or C'tan fragment. You can have pure Necrons enslaving their star gods or vowing to be free of the C'tan (and maybe any other gods including the Chaos gods) forever. Internecine fighting between the Necrons and also Necrons vs. Tyranids can be a way to tone down the seeming unstoppability of both factions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/13 21:52:05
ILegion wrote: The way I understand it, Space Marines don't really "pacify" a world. They have one job, kill that worlds soldiers. The IG come behind them to consolidate the ground the SM took. At that point they also roll in bureaucrats to launch a huge propaganda campaign to start turning the population in the right direction mentally, which could take a couple of generations. It's more of a combined effort by the Imperium.
But! Gonna play devil's advocate and try to rationalize how a single SM chapter can conquer (not pacify) a planet by themselves.
As far as how can a chapter of SM kill off a worlds armies? I'd say its a combination of factors.
For one, they are better trained and equipped than a worlds standard PDF.
Fluff wise, SM are just hard as hell to kill. You have to have something that will penetrate PA, with enough power left, and in a critical enough spot to actually put them down. Outside of a worlds HB, AC, LC, etc., it'll take a massive amount of shots to bring down a single marine, fluff wise. If the SM gets into close combat its usually a slaughter since it would take a massive amount of bodies to bring one down. Which could work except that it'll be hard to get that many bodies in one place. Like a hive city. They can be sectioned off to easily to ever do it so that their numbers can matter. Force concentration, choke points, etc. are vital in military campaigns. History has countless battles where a vastly numerical army was beaten or, at the very least, held at bay by a better trained and equipped force. I mean, we've all seen 300. This goes to the next point, PDF.
In numerous books the PDF, while soldiers, are often depicted as more of a national guard unit. This doesn't necessarily mean they can't fight, but throw in the fact that many of them have never actually fired a shot in anger. So now you have an under equipped army with no combat experience fighting an entire SM chapter which would also include their armor, battle barges, flyers, etc. Not to mention you'd have to throw in the fact that most humans in the 40k universe have an ingrained fear of Astartes. Like, hard to be in their presence without shaking for the average citizen fear.
This doesn't even account for things like terminators or centurions where, in the fluff, they'd be hard to bring down with anything other than a direct shot from a lascannon or stronger weapon which I doubt will be in abundance and most chapters have about 100 terminators.
Now, add in a SM chapter isn't going to deploy piece meal across the planet. That's the concentration of force. They'll pick targets they know they can beat, rapidly deploy, destroy it, then redeploy. They'll do things like take out key communications facilities and leadership. Now that under equipped, poorly trained (by comparison) PDF unit likely wont be able to communicate or have the leadership to coordinate a massed attack where their number would show.
Also, not every city would need to be taken. The SM could just kill the whole city from orbit. That in itself would be a huge shock to any citizens and kill their moral. I mean, they can obliterate a city while you are literally helpless to stop it.
Enemy aircraft. They could be an issue but I don't see why the SM battle barge wouldn't just destroy the majority of it in the opening salvos of an orbital bombarment.
Finally, with communications and leadership compromised, the defending planet would be in a pretty sorry state allowing the SM chapter to pick it apart over time. This is important to remember because this campaign is likely to last months. There may be some form of resistance but if you're whole planet couldn't stop them how can a few bands of uncoordinated citizens do it with whatever they can scrounge together?
Anyways, that was fun. Good way to kill the last 30 minutes at work.
There was a post circulating around years ago about what would happen if a company of night lords landed on present day earth. It wasn't pretty. 100 superhuman space batmans who were more than willing to torture people to force them into submission.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/14 00:53:14
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
One thing you have to note is that in the initial wave of expansion out from Terra, a typical planet was either sparsely populated or populated with natives with much lower technology. So, it would have been like the colonial power expansions in the past. Natives wielding spears had no chance against soldiers with guns. Its why a relatively small number of spanish could take down the whole Aztec empire.
Would have been the same for space marines. Of course when they met up with close to equivalent resistance and technology, that's when the rest of the imperium armies would come in.
But the universe at that time was not ready for the strength of a combined armed forces made up of a space marine legion. Most places did not have any coherent organisation enough to master a regional force (most natives weren't even capable of space travel). And a space marine legion would likely be more than enough to steamroll any typical mere planetary force.
Facing a space legion means facing a fearsome combined armed force of super humans. Each space marine on its own is a one man army. A whole legion of them working together with chapter tactics, supported by predator tanks, thunderhawk gunships, drop pods, and even the titan legions would likely quash any most ordinary resistance easily.
I think that poo-pooing PDF as inexperienced and unorganized soldiers is harsh. These are men and women who will get drafted into guard regiments and hold the line against any xenos/chaos raid or normal invasion until rienforcements arrive (if they arrive). Often whole planetary invasions are fought by PDF without any outside help. These aren't amatures.
Also I forget if it was a short story and if it was about Luna Wolves or Space Wolves but there was a Horus Heresy story that involves Legion forces dropping onto a non-compliant planet. Think it was about 100 or so marines involved in the first recon drop. These are experienced legion crusaders but they still accidentally end up dropping near a local military base. While these are unagmented humans, taken by surprise, they still rally a forceful response and sent the Legionnaires packing back to their drop ships after incurring not insignificant casualties.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/14 02:44:47
“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors
ILegion wrote: The way I understand it, Space Marines don't really "pacify" a world. They have one job, kill that worlds soldiers. The IG come behind them to consolidate the ground the SM took. At that point they also roll in bureaucrats to launch a huge propaganda campaign to start turning the population in the right direction mentally, which could take a couple of generations. It's more of a combined effort by the Imperium.
But! Gonna play devil's advocate and try to rationalize how a single SM chapter can conquer (not pacify) a planet by themselves.
Spoiler:
As far as how can a chapter of SM kill off a worlds armies? I'd say its a combination of factors.
For one, they are better trained and equipped than a worlds standard PDF.
Fluff wise, SM are just hard as hell to kill. You have to have something that will penetrate PA, with enough power left, and in a critical enough spot to actually put them down. Outside of a worlds HB, AC, LC, etc., it'll take a massive amount of shots to bring down a single marine, fluff wise. If the SM gets into close combat its usually a slaughter since it would take a massive amount of bodies to bring one down. Which could work except that it'll be hard to get that many bodies in one place. Like a hive city. They can be sectioned off to easily to ever do it so that their numbers can matter. Force concentration, choke points, etc. are vital in military campaigns. History has countless battles where a vastly numerical army was beaten or, at the very least, held at bay by a better trained and equipped force. I mean, we've all seen 300. This goes to the next point, PDF.
In numerous books the PDF, while soldiers, are often depicted as more of a national guard unit. This doesn't necessarily mean they can't fight, but throw in the fact that many of them have never actually fired a shot in anger. So now you have an under equipped army with no combat experience fighting an entire SM chapter which would also include their armor, battle barges, flyers, etc. Not to mention you'd have to throw in the fact that most humans in the 40k universe have an ingrained fear of Astartes. Like, hard to be in their presence without shaking for the average citizen fear.
This doesn't even account for things like terminators or centurions where, in the fluff, they'd be hard to bring down with anything other than a direct shot from a lascannon or stronger weapon which I doubt will be in abundance and most chapters have about 100 terminators.
Now, add in a SM chapter isn't going to deploy piece meal across the planet. That's the concentration of force. They'll pick targets they know they can beat, rapidly deploy, destroy it, then redeploy. They'll do things like take out key communications facilities and leadership. Now that under equipped, poorly trained (by comparison) PDF unit likely wont be able to communicate or have the leadership to coordinate a massed attack where their number would show.
Also, not every city would need to be taken. The SM could just kill the whole city from orbit. That in itself would be a huge shock to any citizens and kill their moral. I mean, they can obliterate a city while you are literally helpless to stop it.
Enemy aircraft. They could be an issue but I don't see why the SM battle barge wouldn't just destroy the majority of it in the opening salvos of an orbital bombarment.
Finally, with communications and leadership compromised, the defending planet would be in a pretty sorry state allowing the SM chapter to pick it apart over time. This is important to remember because this campaign is likely to last months. There may be some form of resistance but if you're whole planet couldn't stop them how can a few bands of uncoordinated citizens do it with whatever they can scrounge together?
Anyways, that was fun. Good way to kill the last 30 minutes at work.
I think the issue comes in that people are assuming that Marines will be sent against backwater worlds without much military force or defence from orbital bombardment. 100 Marines might just be able to conquer a world of savages and barbarians, but why on earth would you send Marines against that target anyway? You could achieve the same effect with a small detachment of Guard, or a Navy ship from orbit. Marines are precious. They'll only be sent against targets that require Marines to crack.
So, Marines will be sent against high priority stuff. Planets where there will be void shielding to protect from orbital bombardment. Planets where there is something valuable on them, necessitating a strong defence force. Planets where the rogue governor/cult/whatever has amassed forces that would make for a prolonged engagement with traditional warfare. In these sorts of situations, 100 Marines will be cut down promptly after they land. Need more men, and support. Hence the idea of larger chapters/companies and regiments of unrememberred serfs
Unless, of course, Marines are actually used to pacify mainly backwater planets filled with savages wielding 9mm handguns where 100 men will do and the actual heavy lifting is left to the Guard. Realistic, but not exactly the image most people have of the Marines...
History has countless battles where a vastly numerical army was beaten or, at the very least, held at bay by a better trained and equipped force. I mean, we've all seen 300.
Funny you mention 300 actually as that's where I got the idea of regiments of unnamed and unremembered serfs from. Everyone remembers the last stand of the 300 Spartans, holding off a million Persians for days. Here's how it actually went down, as far as historians have been able to decypher:
300 Spartan Hoplites marched to the Hot Gates to hold the Persian army in place while the real army was being mustered. Alongside them marched ~700 Helots (a slave-caste of the Spartans). Alongside those 'Spartan' forces marched roughly 6000 other Greek soldiers totalling a force of some 7,000 by modern estimates. Against them was arrayed the Persian army, estimated to be around 120,000-300,000. Still overwhelmingly large, but not quite the 1 million often suggested.
The force of 7,000 held off that 300,000 strong army for a day with minimal casualties which is a fantastically impressive feat. They would likely have held for longer had they not been outflanked, but they were. Upon learning that they have been encircled on the second day, many of the Greeks retreated but a number stayed to perform a rearguard action to allow the other forces to retreat without being run down by Persian cavalry. The Spartans (and their Helots), 700 Thespians and 400 Thebans. So a total force of ~2100 minus casualties.
Against this force, Xerxes brought 10,000 soldiers on the third day of battle.
So, what we have is a Greek force with superior arms and armour (longer spears and heavier shields offered them a distinct advantage against Persian troops), fighting a defensive action in a choke-point, were victorious for a day before local intelligence negated the numbers advantage, whereupon those who stayed behind in the rearguard were killed relatively easily. And even though they held for 3 days and were eventually slaughtered, we still haven't stopped banging on about it as a heroic achievement to this day.
Modern estimates put Persian fatalities at ~20,000 men. If Xerxes' army was 120,000 strong that's a significant number but not enough to stop his advance. If it was 300,000 men then it's not even really a dent in his forces.
Compared to this, our Marines are even more outnumbered, in unfamiliar territory so if they are able to find a choke point the local population will already know any ways to get around it, and are fighting an offensive not a defensive action. Not a situation that's conducive to success (although they might be facing a force that's less organised).
The problem with Oldcrons was you were either mindless slaves of one C'tan...or you were mindless slaves of another C'tan. There was little opportunity for players to make their own themes, while other factions got Craftworlds, Chapters, warbands, Sept worlds, etc... The other problem was Oldcrons being shoehorned into being behind nearly every conspiracy or event, and being set up to be unbeatable: C'tan for example were described as being vulnerable only to large amounts of warp energy such as the Blackstone Fortresses/Talismans of Vaul...which they have effectively neutralized by the Deceiver precipitating the Gothic War.
Newcrons:
By creating dynasties, the Necrons were broken up into less monolithic blocks, and the idea that many of Lords might be insane made them less of an unbeatable foe. The whole portrayal of some of them as "honorable" grates on me but was probably an attempt to make them more likable as protagonists if players have them as an army. The same rationale was probably behind making some Necron Lords focused on rebuilding empires, so they would conquer humans rather than kill everyone. Fracturing the C'tan (and also mentioning more minor C'tan) was to shift the focus onto the Necrons and their Lords rather than less than a handful of C'tan.
It is possible I think to somewhat meld the two. You can still have your C'tan loyalists following their C'tan or C'tan fragment. You can have pure Necrons enslaving their star gods or vowing to be free of the C'tan (and maybe any other gods including the Chaos gods) forever. Internecine fighting between the Necrons and also Necrons vs. Tyranids can be a way to tone down the seeming unstoppability of both factions.
Yeah I agree that there's a middle-ground between the two. I think it boils down to who is in the minority. If you have a minority of honourable senile old coots scrapping against each other then the whole faction looks ridiculous. If you have the majority of them being unified soulless murder-robots obsessively persecuting a war that ended 60 million years ago...but a few of them harbour doubts about what they've done or the viability of the war they're persecuting, the whole thing keeps the 'your dudes' factor while making Necrons not a joke.
So basically, scrap dynasties. They're petty and make the Necrons feel naff. Return them to a monolithic army-that-conquered-the-galaxy, tempering their OP-ness by nerfing their FTL travel so it's reliable but slooow, turning them into a sort of inexorable march of the dead. However within that monolithic army you have dissenters. The odd revolutionary, conducting experiments in secret of ways they might reverse the biotransference and restore their species. At the same time you have another minority where C'Tan shards have slipped containment and taken over a Tomb World. This offers the opportunity for people to build their Necron forces however they please, within the context of the Necrons being a bona-fide galactic-scale threat (without being OP).
agurus1 wrote: I think that poo-pooing PDF as inexperienced and unorganized soldiers is harsh. These are men and women who will get drafted into guard regiments and hold the line against any xenos/chaos raid or normal invasion until rienforcements arrive (if they arrive). Often whole planetary invasions are fought by PDF without any outside help. These aren't amatures.
Also I forget if it was a short story and if it was about Luna Wolves or Space Wolves but there was a Horus Heresy story that involves Legion forces dropping onto a non-compliant planet. Think it was about 100 or so marines involved in the first recon drop. These are experienced legion crusaders but they still accidentally end up dropping near a local military base. While these are unagmented humans, taken by surprise, they still rally a forceful response and sent the Legionnaires packing back to their drop ships after incurring not insignificant casualties.
Honestly, I think the quality of the PDF is going to variety wildly from place to place. Some may be excellent while some may be down right garbage. But it would be hard to maintain an excellent PDF force anyways because a lot of planets that have the resources and experience to train a good PDF end up having their best soldiers taken by the Imperial Guard anyways. Right now I'm re-reading the Uriel Ventris series and it just talked about how the Lavrentian 44th were wary of trusting the IG in the coming fight against the Tau, presumably because, more often than not, the PDF is a very sub par, unreliably fighting force. In the book Dead Men Walking they do a pretty good job against the Necrons, even using civilians, but that's more because they are trained and supported by the Death Korps of Kreig than because they are great soldiers. That isn't to say some wont put up a hell of a fight though, I just don't think it'd be the majority, fortress worlds like Cadia aside.
There was a post circulating around years ago about what would happen if a company of night lords landed on present day earth. It wasn't pretty. 100 superhuman space batmans who were more than willing to torture people to force them into submission.
I remember reading that. Like you said, it was pretty terrible for Earth haha
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/14 13:16:19
Funny you mention 300 actually as that's where I got the idea of regiments of unnamed and unremembered serfs from. Everyone remembers the last stand of the 300 Spartans, holding off a million Persians for days. Here's how it actually went down, as far as historians have been able to decypher:
300 Spartan Hoplites marched to the Hot Gates to hold the Persian army in place while the real army was being mustered. Alongside them marched ~700 Helots (a slave-caste of the Spartans). Alongside those 'Spartan' forces marched roughly 6000 other Greek soldiers totalling a force of some 7,000 by modern estimates. Against them was arrayed the Persian army, estimated to be around 120,000-300,000. Still overwhelmingly large, but not quite the 1 million often suggested.
The force of 7,000 held off that 300,000 strong army for a day with minimal casualties which is a fantastically impressive feat. They would likely have held for longer had they not been outflanked, but they were. Upon learning that they have been encircled on the second day, many of the Greeks retreated but a number stayed to perform a rearguard action to allow the other forces to retreat without being run down by Persian cavalry. The Spartans (and their Helots), 700 Thespians and 400 Thebans. So a total force of ~2100 minus casualties.
Against this force, Xerxes brought 10,000 soldiers on the third day of battle.
So, what we have is a Greek force with superior arms and armour (longer spears and heavier shields offered them a distinct advantage against Persian troops), fighting a defensive action in a choke-point, were victorious for a day before local intelligence negated the numbers advantage, whereupon those who stayed behind in the rearguard were killed relatively easily. And even though they held for 3 days and were eventually slaughtered, we still haven't stopped banging on about it as a heroic achievement to this day.
Modern estimates put Persian fatalities at ~20,000 men. If Xerxes' army was 120,000 strong that's a significant number but not enough to stop his advance. If it was 300,000 men then it's not even really a dent in his forces.
Compared to this, our Marines are even more outnumbered, in unfamiliar territory so if they are able to find a choke point the local population will already know any ways to get around it, and are fighting an offensive not a defensive action. Not a situation that's conducive to success (although they might be facing a force that's less organised).
Yeah the myth of only 300 soldiers is great for story telling but not realistic. I studied this in college and in the army, good example of superior terrain/tactics/equipment. If if I remember right the Battle of Thermopylae lasted closer to a week but only had about 3 days of fighting with the Spartans rotating out who actually fought so that their soldiers could get some rest. And it wan't just their shields and longer spears that made a difference, they were also clad head to toe in armor that the Persion bows couldn't penetrate. They relied pretty heavily on their bows which the Spartans thought of as cowardly. Also, the Persians relied on cavalry pretty heavily but the terrain clearly favored the Spartans, the cavalry couldn't maneuver. The Spartans also used feints, like pretending to fall back to lure in more of Xerxes troops and then slaughtered them. Some sources even point to Xerxes, while watching the battle, jumping up thinking he had lost his army at at least 1 point because of this. While the local citizens would normally have an advantage here with the choke points, I think it would still favor the marines more. Like in a hive city. Most of their defenses are going to be geared towards stopping an enemy with human like qualities. Like an autocannon set up at the end of an allyway. Normally, a person may not be able to throw a grenade down it but a SM might could, or ride through it with a Land Raider, or fall on it from above with Assault Squads. Its little things like this. All while taking minimal casualties compared to what a normal human unit would take. In the short story Deathwing, for example, 30 terminators attack a huge city controlled by a GSC full of hybrids and purstrains. They destroy the entire infestation by themselves, in one battle, with no support, killing a lot of stealers. Granted only 6 lived but they took down the entire city by themselves. One thing I forgot to mention on 300, while the Spartans tended to be heavily armored the Persians weren't. This is a huge disadvantage. If they were armored head to toe would it have went the same way? I doubt it. If the Persians had the armor to just charge in and break the Greek formation it probably would have gone a little differently. Granted, the greeks were fighting a defensive action, and generally, when attacking, you want least 3-1 odds in your favor when attacking. I'd say that 1 SM is worth more than 3 humans so the numbers aren't AS important.
A better example may be Andrew Jackson's Shenandoah Valley Campaign during the American Civil War. At the peak of his army, Jackson had about 17,000 men vs. a couple of Union forces that numbered about 52,000. The problem the Union soldiers faced here, I think, would be similar to what the PDF would face against a marine invasion force. The union army was actually multiple armies with independent command so they never really coordinated to bring all their numbers to bear at the same time. A PDF defending different cities may have a similar issue. If the marines could disrupt communication at all that would just compound the problem, which they could just through orbital bombardment. According to the books I've read, it tends to play hell with comms. So even if the hive city had void shields, why not bombard them anyways to disrupt communications while the marines attack lesser defended cities one at a time. This allows them to do something else Jackson did which is concentrate his forces. In a majority of battles Jackson was able to maneuver his army into a position where he actually had more men on the field fighting than the Union did which should never have happened considering their forces. Marines would never have the numbers, but being able to bring an entire chapter against one opponent at a time would be telling. Like, if an entire world could muster and fight at once, yeah, marines lose. But being able to section those forces off like that and take them one at a time would tip the balance.
Also, I wasn't looking at this as either a fortress world, well defended hive city, or anything like that. I was thinking more along the lines of a normal world. With nothing special about it really that maybe rebelled (not from chaos just tired of the imperium) so the marines were sent to make an example or something. It isn't a back water but it isn't Cadia. Something in between. Closer to Earth. We aren't really a back water but we aren't super advanced.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/14 14:07:16
Yeah the myth of only 300 soldiers is great for story telling but not realistic. I studied this in college and in the army, good example of superior terrain/tactics/equipment. If if I remember right the Battle of Thermopylae lasted closer to a week but only had about 3 days of fighting with the Spartans rotating out who actually fought so that their soldiers could get some rest. And it wan't just their shields and longer spears that made a difference, they were also clad head to toe in armor that the Persion bows couldn't penetrate. They relied pretty heavily on their bows which the Spartans thought of as cowardly. Also, the Persians relied on cavalry pretty heavily but the terrain clearly favored the Spartans, the cavalry couldn't maneuver. The Spartans also used feints, like pretending to fall back to lure in more of Xerxes troops and then slaughtered them. Some sources even point to Xerxes, while watching the battle, jumping up thinking he had lost his army at at least 1 point because of this. While the local citizens would normally have an advantage here with the choke points, I think it would still favor the marines more. Like in a hive city. Most of their defenses are going to be geared towards stopping an enemy with human like qualities. Like an autocannon set up at the end of an allyway. Normally, a person may not be able to throw a grenade down it but a SM might could, or ride through it with a Land Raider, or fall on it from above with Assault Squads. Its little things like this. All while taking minimal casualties compared to what a normal human unit would take. In the short story Deathwing, for example, 30 terminators attack a huge city controlled by a GSC full of hybrids and purstrains. They destroy the entire infestation by themselves, in one battle, with no support, killing a lot of stealers. Granted only 6 lived but they took down the entire city by themselves. One thing I forgot to mention on 300, while the Spartans tended to be heavily armored the Persians weren't. This is a huge disadvantage. If they were armored head to toe would it have went the same way? I doubt it. If the Persians had the armor to just charge in and break the Greek formation it probably would have gone a little differently. Granted, the greeks were fighting a defensive action, and generally, when attacking, you want least 3-1 odds in your favor when attacking. I'd say that 1 SM is worth more than 3 humans so the numbers aren't AS important.
A better example may be Andrew Jackson's Shenandoah Valley Campaign during the American Civil War. At the peak of his army, Jackson had about 17,000 men vs. a couple of Union forces that numbered about 52,000. The problem the Union soldiers faced here, I think, would be similar to what the PDF would face against a marine invasion force. The union army was actually multiple armies with independent command so they never really coordinated to bring all their numbers to bear at the same time. A PDF defending different cities may have a similar issue. If the marines could disrupt communication at all that would just compound the problem, which they could just through orbital bombardment. According to the books I've read, it tends to play hell with comms. So even if the hive city had void shields, why not bombard them anyways to disrupt communications while the marines attack lesser defended cities one at a time. This allows them to do something else Jackson did which is concentrate his forces. In a majority of battles Jackson was able to maneuver his army into a position where he actually had more men on the field fighting than the Union did which should never have happened considering their forces. Marines would never have the numbers, but being able to bring an entire chapter against one opponent at a time would be telling. Like, if an entire world could muster and fight at once, yeah, marines lose. But being able to section those forces off like that and take them one at a time would tip the balance.
Also, I wasn't looking at this as either a fortress world, well defended hive city, or anything like that. I was thinking more along the lines of a normal world. With nothing special about it really that maybe rebelled (not from chaos just tired of the imperium) so the marines were sent to make an example or something. It isn't a back water but it isn't Cadia. Something in between. Closer to Earth. We aren't really a back water but we aren't super advanced.
Yeah that does make sense, although I still don't think the Marines stand a hope in hell against any of the targets they'd be required to fight if there's only 100 of them (plus vehicle crew). It's honestly a laughably small force that, barring orbital bombardment, I'm fairly certain our armed forces could take. Even if it's only tank shells that can penetrate Power Armour, there's more than enough tanks in the US alone to outnumber Marines 2-to-1. And compared to most 40k planets worth a damn we're absolutely a backwater. We've barely even got spaceflight.
I'm not saying that Marines would lose out to any army that outnumbers them. I'm not even saying that being heavily outnumbered would mean they're toast. It's just that in any situation where Marines would be required to mollify a threat they're outnumbered so severely that even if the opposing force brought a fraction of their arms to bear they'd be drowned in bullets.
The example I was running through back at the start was a hive that was woefully underequipped compared to most hives in the Imperium, with only 0.1% of a single hive's population being armed and against the Marines. In reality that would be far nastier, especially if things had gone bad enough to require the Marines to be called in. Yet even with those enormously favourable odds for the Marines they're still dead over a hundred times over. Hell, the example wasn't even realistic for that. It was 0.1% of the population is armed, against the Marines and then takes a single shot at them before shooting themselves in the head.
I understand how situations can be engineered to result in force multipliers that can negate some degree of numerical advantage. The issue is that no force multiplier bar orbital bombardment will be able to overcome the odds the company of Marines are facing when 'pacifying a hive', let along 'pacifying a world' that they would realistically be sent against, given our current understanding of Marine physiology and capability.
I'm not saying that Marines can't overcome odds that aren't in their favour. I'm not saying that Marines are incapable, or that their advantages aren't significant. I am saying that the advantages they have are simply not enough to overcome the catastrophically terrible odds they're facing if there's only 100 of them.
7000 Greeks lost to 300,000 Persians, but survived for about a week (being outnumbered 42-to-1).
17,000 of Andrew Jackson's soldiers beat 52,000 Union soldiers (being outnumbered 3-to-1)
In the best possible scenario I can imagine (1% of the population against the Marines, only 50% armed with any sort of weapon at all, all of them fire a single shot and then promptly shoot themselves in the head), the Marines are still outnumbered 400-to-1. Those are insurmountable odds even if all other factors are accounted for (especially seeing as the opposing force, whipped up into a fervour by the rogue governor, is extremely unlikely to shoot themselves in the head after firing their one shot).
Unless the rebellious force is taken completely and utterly unawares the Marines stand no chance at all. The surprise factor is rather ruined by the sodding great battlebarge overhead though...
Are we assuming that they fight all the conventional forces on a planet? as that would be stupid to say the least, they could just drop onto the most powerful nations living room and kill the entire high command, leave the rest leaderless and pick off the biggest threats?
Two small changes though and it's fixed. Companies are 10-100,000 strong. Wherever Marines go they're acconpanied by serfs, native troops and/or IG regiments that fight alongside but never get recorded in history just like the helots amd thespians at the battle of thermopylae
I quite like that idea. The glory-hound Space Marines are well-known for the victory that was really won with the endless sacrifice of Serfs who are forgotten to history.
Yeah it's definitely a favourite of mine
Plus, you get kickass conversion opportunities like these Black Templar serfs:
Totally agreed. My homebrew Marine Chapter already has a dedicated Chapter serf/IG force. I find the aesthetic of an army of common soldiers led by a small group of giant demi-gods to be very attractive. Especially now that with the Primaris, Marines actually stand out from the crowd. Space Marine armies would be so much more interesting if they offered options for Chapter serfs.
Formosa wrote: Are we assuming that they fight all the conventional forces on a planet? as that would be stupid to say the least, they could just drop onto the most powerful nations living room and kill the entire high command, leave the rest leaderless and pick off the biggest threats?
Not sure about others, but I've tried to work that into my calculations by making it so that only 0.1% of the given hive's population ever get a single shot at the Marines. Marines are still toast.
It would work provided the planet hadn't the faintest idea you were coming (sort of spoiled by the battlebarge dropping out of orbit) or don't have the capability to defend yourself even if you do (we'd probably fall into this category as we have no defence against orbital bombardment).
The whole War on Terror example I posted earlier is indication that the whole 'drop in and kill the leaders' idea doesn't really work when it's a hearts and minds thing rather than a single person driving it, so it would work for a single corrupt governor but would probably be completely ineffective against anything that actually had popular support.
Oh, another thought. Regardless of numbers, the hive dudes are the Spartans in this situation. Fighting a defensive engagement on home turf where they are better able to use the terrain against the Marines. Marines may have been to many hives in their service career, but these people have been living in this particular hive for all of their life.
Eldenfirefly wrote: One thing you have to note is that in the initial wave of expansion out from Terra, a typical planet was either sparsely populated or populated with natives with much lower technology. So, it would have been like the colonial power expansions in the past. Natives wielding spears had no chance against soldiers with guns. Its why a relatively small number of spanish could take down the whole Aztec empire.
For the first wave, many planets welcomes the IoM.
They remembered what interstellar travel was like before. In stories or in legends, it was a great time to be alive. A time of abundance. Everywhere in the great crusade you find planets that had been isolated in darkness, on the brink of starvation, or under the rule of xenos. Once liberated most were more than willing to submit to imperial rule, because they genuinely thought it was going to be for the best.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
Formosa wrote: Are we assuming that they fight all the conventional forces on a planet? as that would be stupid to say the least, they could just drop onto the most powerful nations living room and kill the entire high command, leave the rest leaderless and pick off the biggest threats?
This is the point of view I've been taking. They'll basically pick apart a planet's defenses. Target leadership, communications, bases, etc. Then conduct lightening fast strikes via drop pod, thunderhawk, etc. to annihilate those key facilities and personnel before hitting you're next target.
But, I'll stop playing devil's advocate, I'm running out of arguments haha.
Personally, I don't think the marines can defeat a planet by themselves. They just physically don't have enough bodies to cover enough ground. Even if an entire chapter deployed to fight a planet similar to earth with multiple factions, They wouldn't have enough personnel to hit enough targets to accomplish a full decapitation strike. That's why you don't really hear about them defeating a planet by themselves and why the only time they really did was in the Great Crusade with they numbered in the tens of thousands per Legion. That's why conquering a planet and pacifying it is a combined imperial effort.
I guess, technically, a single space marine battle barge could conquer a planet. They could role up, virus bomb the hell out of it then lance strike it to set the gases off. That's exterminatus though so not really what we're talking about here haha.
In terms of comparative technological advancement the US army might as well be. Still not a taxtic that has met with any form of success.
Nope. Not even close. Once you bring in psykers, teleportation, etc., you're in a whole other area. Certainly, for more industrial or advanced worlds, the whole "cut off the head" thing fails as you say. There are also a great deal of less advanced worlds where the Marines are facing forces that might struggle agains the modern Taliban. They get called in as a matter of expedience, or maybe there's no Guard close enough, etc etc. In these cases, where you have a less populated world with a more "backward" tech level, the cut off the head strategy would likely work and work pretty well. Like I said, real world comparisons work to a point, but when you have a populace who might not even have known about space travel look to the skies and see burning drop pods come down and crush half a settlement while giant armored demons get out and launch lightning from their hands while nothing the populace has can even distract them? Yeah, in the right circumstances, an army consisting only of space marines really could pacify a planet without killing everyone or resorting to destroying the planet itself.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
On another side note, I think its important to differentiate between conquering a planet and making it loyal to the IoM. Space marines can kill the armies but aren't really made to then win the hearts and minds, so on that front they definitely fail.
Totally agreed. My homebrew Marine Chapter already has a dedicated Chapter serf/IG force. I find the aesthetic of an army of common soldiers led by a small group of giant demi-gods to be very attractive. Especially now that with the Primaris, Marines actually stand out from the crowd. Space Marine armies would be so much more interesting if they offered options for Chapter serfs.
Neat! I always like to see this played out in people's armies it certainly is a great aesthetic, helped by the embiggened Primaris miniatures. I keep meaning to have a stab at it myself, doing a take on 'Red Templars' as sort of space-Knights Hospitallers with a load of men-at-arms supporting them.
There's tons of cool things you can do. Roman-style up-teched auxilia for the Ultramarines. Failed aspirants-turned combat servitors for Iron Hands. A load of screaming fanatical loonies bedecked in gold that trail the Imperial Fists around (basically terra-groupies). Light-cavalry bikers like mongol-style dragoons for the White Scars. Covert spec-ops style dudes for Raven Guard. Techno-barbaric warriors for the Space Wolves.
It's not just realistic, it's a damn cool idea too
Ooh, forgot about these awesome conversions for Space Wolf mortal auxilia:
The whole War on Terror example I posted earlier is indication that the whole 'drop in and kill the leaders' idea doesn't really work when it's a hearts and minds thing rather than a single person driving it, so it would work for a single corrupt governor but would probably be completely ineffective against anything that actually had popular support. .
The difference between the War on Terror and a planetary assault by the Astartes (or wars in our own past) is that the Astartes aren't bound by treaties and laws governing what you should and should not do with local populaces. The Coalition is.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/09/14 15:59:21
ILegion wrote: On another side note, I think its important to differentiate between conquering a planet and making it loyal to the IoM. Space marines can kill the armies but aren't really made to then win the hearts and minds, so on that front they definitely fail.
Personally, I'd say it's the opposite way around.
Space Marines at 100 men strong are woefully inadequate to kill even a modest PDF forces. However, as the guardian angels of the Imperium, the chosen warriors of the Emperor, the forgers of the very Imperium, they are the single best propaganda tool the Imperium has at its disposal.
That might be a way for 100 Marines to pacify a planet. Rock up, state that they are the chosen angels of the Emperor and the governor has displeased him. Give him to us, or the wrath of the Emperor will rain down upon you (all bluff, given their numbers). Then drop down into a public place and lord around like the 7ft tall genetically engineered propaganda machine you are in an attempt at further intimidation and they might just hand the governor over.
Not exactly the sort of shoot-em-up novel people usually want from SM books though...
still, I don't really mind when topics meander away from their initial premise (provided they're still relatively relevant and discussing an interesting topic). I've been on forums where they're really hot on shooting down topics that go even slightly off topic and people just stop talking to each other.
