Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This will be fought in lets say, a ruined city area.

First off, it will just be a single Imperial Storm Trooper and a regular Cadian Imperial Guardsman.

The Storm Trooper will be armed with a regular E-11 blaster and perhaps a thermal detonator. And the guardsman will have a regular kit also (Lasgun, frag grenade, knife)

And maybe if that's not good enough. We could pit a full squad each on both sides with regular kits and maybe one with a special weapon (Grenade Launcher, Flamer, DLT-19.) Just to see if that'll change anything in any way.

Sorry if this was already a thing on these forums, I just really wanted to know who will really prevail.
Thank you in advance

Cadian every day of the week... stormtroopers can't hit anything even at point blank range.

The stormtrooper misses, the guardsman dies anyway

Luke_Prowler wins the thread.


Serious answer, it can really go either way.

Just keep in mind that the movies are not good representations of Stormtrooper abilities, while the Tabletop game has never been a good representation of Guardsmen.
Oh - and the books of both series have never been consistent, almost like they are fantasies with multiple authors making Stormtroopers/guardsmen only as skilled as the situation requires.

Added - I couldn't get this out of my head so I had to attach it to my reply:
Jedi have an ability called 'Plot Armour...' the Stormtrooper never had a chance!
Space Marines have an ability called 'Marry Sue...' the Guardsmen never had a chance!

The Storm Trooper kills the guardsman. The guardsmans cuddly teddy-bear kills the Storm Troopers entire regiment.

Stormtroopers are poorly trained soldiers in crap armor who can't hit the broad side of the barn and die by the dozens to farm kids and common street criminals. Cadian Guardsmen are drilled from birth in one of the most militarized societies by veterans who fought in campaigns that the same Stormtrooper could only imagine in his or her worst nightmares. Cadians everytime.

Imperial Stormtroopers are a disgrace to the Grand Army of the Republic's legacy.

Stormtroopers only fail against the heroes with plot armour they decimate hoth and defeated the rebel commandos on endorsed forest moon before the ewoks turned up.

It'd be 50/50 IMO.

Gunzhard wrote:Cadian every day of the week... stormtroopers can't hit anything even at point blank range.

Luke_Prowler wrote:The stormtrooper misses,

TheCustomLime wrote:Stormtroopers are poorly trained soldiers in crap armor who can't hit the broad side of the barn

Took me a moment to realize this isn't talking about the 40k Stormtroopers, who'd wipe the floor with any garden variety guardsmen in 10 seconds flat (even if he's forced to use Star Wars tech).

I'd say that it isn't a fair fight. The storm trooper was made to fight in the hundreds. Guardsmen in the millions. Against a small force if the storm troopers had some situational advantage they may win, but in the end I think the imperium war training is far better in that it has 40k years to hone the program.

Sounds like a DEATH BATTLE. Let's break down the contestants! (just off the top of my head info and logical deductions, I didn't look anything up or double-check)

Storm Trooper:
Assumptions & Abilities:
Storm Troopers were first created as Clone Troopers by the clone masters of Kamino, based on the genetic code of the most dangerous bounty hunter in the galaxy — Jango Fett. These troopers were grown in cloning vats and "born" already young boys. Then they had their aging accelerated while receiving extensive training on conducting warfare. A Clone Trooper not only could receive orders and fire a weapon, but could function as combat engineers, conduct guerrilla warfare, plan supply routes, and prepare and execute entire military campaigns with little outside supervision required. In addition to this, they also were extremely well organized, with a command structure that the clones immediately would obey. Despite numbering in the millions, disloyalty was known only within a handful of Clone Troopers at most.

Storm Troopers followed the same training and command structure, but as they were pulled from regular military ranks (and possibly even conscripted), and not grown and trained by the Kaminoans, they would not have the same breadth of abilities possessed by the Clone Troopers, and would specialize, most commonly in squad combat. They would still, however, learn to be absolutely obedient to the chain of command.

Equipment:
(remember that this is what they always carry, not what they have access to)

- Stormtrooper Armour; Seems to be completely ineffective, not even protecting the wearer from rocks dropped short distances or stone hammers swung by small creatures. However, it did show a number of variances based on the environment they were operating in, so it makes sense that its use was as an effective survival suit that would allow the Storm or Clone trooper to operate in a large variety of environments for longer periods of time than a more exposed and overburdened soldier. Given that we see Storm Troopers operating in the blazing Tatooine heat, and in the frozen wastes of Hoth, both with almost no major effects, this idea is not without merit.

- Blaster Carbine; A Storm Trooper's main weapon is its Blaster, which is a kinetic and laser weapon, which both burns targets, but also seems to impart kinetic force as well, knocking targets back as if they were hit with a solid slug. Unlike a regular bullet, a hit from a blaster will cauterize a wound as it enters, meaning that anything less than a kill-shot will likely leave a still-functioning, possibly still lethaly functioning, enemy. Eventually, these blasters can run out of power from sustained use. Sustained fire can harm larger vehicles, likely by causing circuits to fry, and/or gears to seize up.

- Blaster Pistol; When not fielding their Blaster Carbines, the Storm Trooper has a Blaster Pistol. It seems to be about the same, though lacks the kinetic force of the larger weapon.

Imperial Guardsman:
Assumptions & Abilities:
Guardsmen form the bulk of the forces of the Imperial Army, the greatest fighting force in the galaxy. They number in the billions, maybe even trillions, strong. An able bodied Guardsman from a standard world will be about as strong as a military-trained earth man, but some specimens far exceed that, such as the fierce jungle fighters of Catachan. However, there is no one training regimen in the Astra Militarum. Instead, the Imperium cares only about the results, and leaves the organization to the Imperial Commanders, whom are just as varied as the worlds they draw their forces from.

Equipment:
- Flakk Armour: Composed of multiple layers of materials, flakk armour is meant to absorb kinetic and thermal energy before being destroyed in pieces. While generally incapable of surviving blasts from the massive and armour-piercing weapons prevalent in the 41st millenium, they provide moderate protection against small arms fire like autoguns, autopistols, and las-weapons.

- Lasgun: Able to be nearly endlessly customized, the humble lasgun is the workhorse of the Imperium. It works by suddenly increasing the surface temperature of an object to high degrees, causing a sudden expansion of the air around the point of impact to cause a miniature explosion, delivering both thermal energy combined with the concussive force of the vaporization of the air around the point of impact. The most impressive part of the lasgun is that its ammo can be replenished just with heat. Even throwing it into a fire can replenish its ammunition, though this isn't recommended.

- Copy of Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer: Not actually used for anything, but is required reading for all Guardsmen to re-affirm their faith. Has some semi-use pointers as well.

-----------------------

Ultimately, I think this fight comes down to training versus equipment. The Storm Troopers are obviously better trained, but the Guardsmen's weapons and armour can actually function. Ultimately, training is well and good, but in a Death Battle the main determinant is the final fighting, and not the lead-up to it.

Winner: Guardsman.

A key piece of information is lacking - we have nothing to indicate the effectiveness of Las guns against stormtroopers armour or blasters against guardsman flak armour and helmets.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
The stormtrooper misses, the guardsman dies anyway

This lol.

I can't help thinking about it from a different perspective - how would you stat an imperial stormtrooper in 40k? I bet star wars fans have done this already (especially since there are miniatures from the star wars skirmish game available). I would probably give the Stormtroopers the sams BS as guardsmen, same S and T, but a 4+ armour save (because their armour LOOKS like it should do something, even though it acts like lightweight plastic (almost certainly what it was made out of for the movies). Would their blaster be S3 or S4 though? Either way I would put them at higher cost than a guardsman.

Not a very realistic way to do it, but we are talking about things that don't exist...

The guardsmen die easily but they will return and in greater numbers.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

Gunzhard wrote:Cadian every day of the week... stormtroopers can't hit anything even at point blank range.

Luke_Prowler wrote:The stormtrooper misses,

TheCustomLime wrote:Stormtroopers are poorly trained soldiers in crap armor who can't hit the broad side of the barn

Yes, exactly, considering how the odds were so stacked against the Stormtroopers the fact that they lost less men than they killed should tell you something.

Eh, this is a battle where a basic infantry trooper fights a different basic infantry trooper.

The most notable difference is that the lasgun seems to be more high powered* than the blaster rifle but the white stormtrooper armor looks like it would offer better protection than the flak armor.

Training is kind of a non-issue in this case. The level of stormtroopers' competence is all over the place. Compare what Obi-Wan said in Episode IV: "Only imperial stormtroopers are so precise." to what is actually depicted on the screen. Meanwhile, it's impossible to say anything concrete about the training of a guardsman, if we don't know the name of the world that trained him or her. Edit: Oh, the guardsman is from Cadia? Nevermind, a cadian would have the advantage. By the virtue of conviction.

So, if you want an answer, flip a coin. Imperial strategists, from either imperium, would probably do the same.

*Yeah. Seriously. A lasgun can cut off a limb of an adult human being. Blasters seem to be only about as deadly as modern fire arms... if the user can actually hit the broad side of the barn.

It's kind of hard to do this. They're both "faceless mooks" in a sense.

It's like saying "Soviet Soldier vs German Soldier, 1943"

They're essentially the same, and while millions of one may have beaten millions of the other when combined with national industry and other advantages, in a tiny tiny 1v1 microcosm it's essentially "flip a coin."

They're both very similar.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It's kind of hard to do this. They're both "faceless mooks" in a sense.

It's like saying "Soviet Soldier vs German Soldier, 1943"

They're essentially the same, and while millions of one may have beaten millions of the other when combined with national industry and other advantages, in a tiny tiny 1v1 microcosm it's essentially "flip a coin."

They're both very similar.

I mean...yeah.

It's the same trap every "X vx. Y" or "could X beat Y" debate falls into, every time.
People tend to think that fights work like DBZ power levels (which it should be noted ceased to be used about 1/3 of the way through the show for this reason) and they just...don't. Ever.

There's so much additional context that goes into a fight above and beyond "this weapon penetrates this armour" - especially when even something like a weapon's penetrative power, for example, is a known quantity based only upon what occurs under specific conditions. Everything from range to weather to the angle and timing of a blow matters just as much as equipment or training quality. Who gets the drop on whom and the nature of the battlefield and the timing of the fight matter, too. Hell, even whether or not both combatants are fully rested, or whether one of them is just having an "off day" matters.

And people harp on things like "plot armour" and "mary sues" but I honestly just think those terms are overused. There are egregious examples of conflicts that strain plausibility in fiction, sure, but it almost seems like the only alternative that would satisfy people is one that would not be conducive for telling any semblance of coherent story...ever. Characters have to be able to get into scrapes and make it out alive in order for a story to advance. There are ways to add weight and tension to these situations and some tales do better than others but...come on. It's not "plot armour" just because a character survives one or even many fights.

At the end of the day it's important to remember that it doesn't matter how skilled a swordsman is, for example - they're still likely to die if you stab them in the heart. Whether that's by besting them in skilled combat, or a newcomer's lucky blow or an underhanded assassination is irrelevant - skill and equipment are no surefire safeguard from harm. Whatever works best for the plot of a story is another matter entirely.

---

Now, with aaall that said...just entertaining the argument for the fun of it?

I'd say it's pretty much a toss-up, with perhaps a -slight- edge to the stormtrooper. We don't really have a good idea where their armour stands against flak armour vs. carapace armour in 40k, but I think it's safe to say that it's similar to one or the other. At the very least they have a slight edge thanks to a standard, fully-enclosed helmet. So there's a bit of an advantage there.

Their armaments appear to be pretty similar. We don't have much reason to assume a lasgun is all that different from a blaster - they're basically each respective canon's equivalent of an AK-47. Frag/krak grenades vs. thermal detonators seem likewise to me to be a toss-up.

Training I would likewise argue is pretty close. They're basic infantry grunts in their respective settings. Capable, well-trained, but not special forces of any kind - they fill the same role. One could make the argument that there's a potential for far greater variety of training between different IG regiments - and that's true - but we have to assume some sort of standardized baseline to make any sort of comparison at all. It makes sense to use the Cadian "template" since this is often given as the go-to example for something approaching a "standard" Guardsman from across the Imperium.

So where does that leave us? Two dudes who are pretty darn similar in every aspect, with maybe a slight edge on the stormtrooper for equipment (armour). I'd say the fight could go either way.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

Gunzhard wrote:Cadian every day of the week... stormtroopers can't hit anything even at point blank range.

Luke_Prowler wrote:The stormtrooper misses,

TheCustomLime wrote:Stormtroopers are poorly trained soldiers in crap armor who can't hit the broad side of the barn

That was one of the very few engagements that the Stormtroopers did well in. Most of the time they just die horribly to barely trained farm kids and street thugs.

Yes, storming a single tiny entry door is precisely what a trained force of soldiers do when the ship is literally inside theirs!

Oh, and also shooting anything flying off with lasers rather than just shutting the door...

Part of the real problem comparing storm troopers to anything is that the star wars EU has been whittling their effectiveness down to absurd degrees over the course of decades to the point where they (and the empire at large) don't approach the level of threatening the movies try to convey.

I had thought Disney had ejected the EU for that purpose when they bought the franchise, but they've brought the sum of all those years of nerfs with them in Rebels and to a lesser extent, Rogue One.

Fortunately, that leaves us with benchmarks. Storm trooper helmets break when hit with a bow staff swung by Donnie Yen. How much force is behind that? How does that compare to the force behind a bullet? How does that compare to a stubber, etc.

The storm trooper shoots and misses the guardsmen. On a 4+ the guardsmen kills the storm trooper. Guardsmen dies anyway

Winner:?????

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Captain Joystick wrote:

Gunzhard wrote:Cadian every day of the week... stormtroopers can't hit anything even at point blank range.

Luke_Prowler wrote:The stormtrooper misses,

TheCustomLime wrote:Stormtroopers are poorly trained soldiers in crap armor who can't hit the broad side of the barn

That was one of the very few engagements that the Stormtroopers did well in. Most of the time they just die horribly to barely trained farm kids and street thugs.

those "farm boys and street thugs" are protagionists. in the few cases where stormtroopers have engaged people without "plot shields" they've proven effective.

 Captain Joystick wrote:


Fortunately, that leaves us with benchmarks. Storm trooper helmets break when hit with a bow staff swung by Donnie Yen. How much force is behind that? How does that compare to the force behind a bullet? How does that compare to a stubber, etc.

Stormtroopers cannot win, because their pauldrons are too small.

In fact they seem to lack pauldrons entirely! Such a jest!

But Clone troopers won in the end, and they do not have pauldrons, either.

Neither did the droids so that evens out.

BrianDavion wrote:

those "farm boys and street thugs" are protagionists. in the few cases where stormtroopers have engaged people without "plot shields" they've proven effective.

For reals. Stormtrooper versus Rebel trooper fights led to overwhelming victory for the Stormtroopers every time in the Original Trilogy. Even the heroes consistently spent their time trying to flee from them (unlike Rogue One where individual good guys could take on a dozen or more with ease). They also appear to have superb morale. Speaking of Rogue One it could be argued that the Force was protecting Han, Luke and Leia like it did with the blind monk. I'd kinda view it like a low level Psyker who is really lucky. Their shots tend to go just wide, mechanisms jam or go wonky at the wrong time, reactions (both mechanical and from people) to close blast doors are just slightly too slow etc.

That said Cadians are trained from birth and would have great morale as well. Assuming the weaponry of each can penetrate the armour of the other equally I'd give the advantage to the Cadians due to the training. If Stormtrooper armour is superior but still has weak spots or gives out under sustained fire then the Stormtroopers likely have an advantage but I don't think it'd be to a huge degree.

I think it's all going to boil down to who surprises who. Swiftness and violence of action beats equipment most of the time and in this case I'm going with the Cadian. He will sit quietly in a ruined building behind sandbags and camo netting while the dude dressed in BRIGHT WHITE ARMOR comes strolling down the road. Cadian gets the first shots off and if he connects the Stormtrooper is at the very least injured. While the Stormtrooper surveys the battlefield through his sight restricting helmet, the Cadian moves to another ruin and pops him again. Game over.

Cadian, Mordian, Catachan, Elysian, and Steel Legion troopers are actually very well trained soldiers. They only die in droves because the enemies they fight are so much more powerful than they are. The US Army can turn you into a Delta Force operator in 3 years, the IG grunts have been training since elementary school ages. And remember, the planetary governor usually sends only the best 5 or 10% of his guys to the Astra Militarum. The average Cadian or Catachan regiment should be composed entirely out of dudes who on Earth would be the equivalent of Rangers, Spetznaz, SAS, etc.

Obviously this does not hold true to any of the conscripted regiments.

My .02

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

those "farm boys and street thugs" are protagionists. in the few cases where stormtroopers have engaged people without "plot shields" they've proven effective.

For reals. Stormtrooper versus Rebel trooper fights led to overwhelming victory for the Stormtroopers every time in the Original Trilogy. Even the heroes consistently spent their time trying to flee from them (unlike Rogue One where individual good guys could take on a dozen or more with ease). They also appear to have superb morale. Speaking of Rogue One it could be argued that the Force was protecting Han, Luke and Leia like it did with the blind monk. I'd kinda view it like a low level Psyker who is really lucky. Their shots tend to go just wide, mechanisms jam or go wonky at the wrong time, reactions (both mechanical and from people) to close blast doors are just slightly too slow etc.

This right here. In the Original Trilogy, the heroes take the Storm Trooper threat very seriously. The heroes are constantly in retreat, or cornered in an impossible situation. I think the idea of poorly trained Storm Troopers has become such a meme that people miss all of that even when watching the Original Trilogy. All the audience sees is Storm Troopers being shot down by the dozens while the heroes get out unscathed.

I only really noticed this when I watched Rogue One, which is perhaps the first Star Wars movie to show the rebels actually going on the offensive and murdering Storm Troopers for comic relief.