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Heaven forbid ig win tournaments after all.

 ross-128 wrote:
Straken is still probably going to be more valuable for his +1 attack bubble than his own melee output, especially since +1 on a 1-attack model is a fairly big deal.

It will basically turn his fist into an autocannon hit though. Throw in a Priest for good measure. Since infantry squads are 10 models you can pile an infantry squad, Straken, and a Priest into a Chimera for surprise assault Guard.

Of course reliance on a special character means you can only pull that stunt on one part of the board, probably with two, maybe three squads at most. The look on your opponent's face when he realizes Fix Bayonets isn't a joke, though...

Interesting concept though. Assuming the priest+straken combo, popping out of a chimera in charge range, that would be (doing this in my head so it might be a bit off):

20 x S3 shots at BS4, from the 10 infantry.
31 x S4 attacks at WS4, from the 10 infantry.
6 more S7 attacks from Straken at WS2.
4 more S3 attacks at WS4 from priest.

With orders giving them 20 more S3 shots on the turn before they charge, and then on their next turn (if they are alive, or more likely if their enemy hasn't melted yet) getting up to 31 bonus S4 attacks. I suspect fix bayonets will not see much use, as it can only be used in the shooting phase.

Still though, 40 shots + 31 attacks isn't bad. Compared to a boyz squad of similar size:

10x S4 shots at BS5 from the 10 boyz
30 x S4 attacks at WS3.

And that's it, cos you can't fit anything else into a trukk. But if you *could* add in a warboss, you'd get 4 more S6 attacks at WS2. So Straken would actually put up a decent fight against the warboss, for similar points.


I'm not saying that this makes the infantry squad better in melee than orks, though it makes it pretty close in this situation. But the infantry would win the fight, just because of the ability to shoot a whole bunch of shots before attacking. They're also 2 points cheaper than boyz, and have a better transport.



It's 3:30am I really shouldn't try thinking at this time of night.

After writing all this, do I think that infantry + straken etc combo is overpowered? No, I think it would be damn fun to play, and for the points it all adds up pretty nicely. All this highlights is how weak Orks are right now, but because we were talking about melee strength it was the comparison that came to mind.

I almost deleted this because it ended up a ramble, but I left it because why not.

Edited: because I gave the orks the bonus of having both a shoota and a choppa, which they can't have. They can either get more shots, or get more attacks, not both. So I left them with the more attacks, as that is their strength. Means they lose out even more though. For the points, that IG squad in chimera is pretty nasty.

You're using their faction special character to get those bonuses, so I should hope it would be nice. He's essentially a chapter master.

I don't know how c chimeras are worthwhile though. You could use move move move to go 12" + 2d6 instead. Use the chimera points for more men.

I'd like alternate Pith helmet heads and plastic Mordian Iron Guard so I can make Praetorian Guard.

Victoria Miniatures has an entire range of Praetorian Guard proxies. Great Models.

I don't think so. It says the model rather then the unit.

(about vortex missile mortal wound dmg)

 argonak wrote:
You're using their faction special character to get those bonuses, so I should hope it would be nice. He's essentially a chapter master.

I don't know how c chimeras are worthwhile though. You could use move move move to go 12" + 2d6 instead. Use the chimera points for more men.

You use the Chimera not for the movement, but for it's metal boxiness, to stop them disappearing to any trivial anti infantry firepower before they get into position.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 crimsondave wrote:
Can we at least see the codex before we decide IG squads are OP?

Welcome to Dakka

MaxT wrote:

 argonak wrote:
You're using their faction special character to get those bonuses, so I should hope it would be nice. He's essentially a chapter master.

I don't know how c chimeras are worthwhile though. You could use move move move to go 12" + 2d6 instead. Use the chimera points for more men.

You use the Chimera not for the movement, but for it's metal boxiness, to stop them disappearing to any trivial anti infantry firepower before they get into position.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 crimsondave wrote:
Can we at least see the codex before we decide IG squads are OP?

Welcome to Dakka

But you can get another twenty men for the price of a chimera. It's kinda the same issue orks run into.

Niiru wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Presumably every regiment is going to have a doctrine that does something for vehicles.

Not necessarily. I know IG use a lot of vehicles, but aren't there any regiments that (fluffwise) tend to specialise in troops instead? I'm sure there are. So they'd get a doctrine that works on their troops only.

Much like a regiment that specialised in vehicles might get a doctrine that only works on vehicles. The gunline one that's coming tomorrow might well be that.

Of course, there's nothing stopping you taking two detachments, and having all your troops be A and all your tanks be B and getting the best of both worlds.

Technically any regiment is extremely specialized in what it does: ie: all tanks, all artillery, all infantry. A mixed force you see on the tabletop would not be something you'd see via the fluff unless you have 2 or 3 separate regiments working in tandem with each other. It is very much possible to have a planet supply both infantry regiments, tank regiments, artillery regiments, and so on. Fluffwise after all, Valhalla has its human waves and Chenkov, while we have also seen through the Cain books that it provides both Artillery (Cain's first regiment), Mechanized Infantry (the 597th), and Tank companies (there was a Valhallan tank company in one of the books, I forget the name, but from the one where he meets an old commissar "buddy").

The rules of them effecting both Infantry and Vehicles is a way to make both infantry blobbers, tread heads, and everything in between happy. Though now they just need to errata Space Marine vehicles to do the same.

SM Chapter Tactics not affecting vehicles is a design choice, not a mistake.

 Corrode wrote:
SM Chapter Tactics not affecting vehicles is a design choice, not a mistake.

ooh, is the complaining about that starting up already? Let me get my tear cup, I've been keeping it ready once I saw that after two editions of being the only faction with chapter tactics, space marines now have the most restrictive chapter tactics out of everybody.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Corrode wrote:
SM Chapter Tactics not affecting vehicles is a design choice, not a mistake.

ooh, is the complaining about that starting up already? Let me get my tear cup, I've been keeping it ready once I saw that after two editions of being the only faction with chapter tactics, space marines now have the most restrictive chapter tactics out of everybody.

They don't really, though. If you look at AdMech, they also only affect INFANTRY and Walkers... because AdMech only has Walker vehicles.
It's the insane amount of different vehicles that the Space Marines have access to that necessitates the restriction.
That said, I would have assumed that super heavies would be out as far as Regiments goes, but it seems they are in. I have faith they'll still balance the army as a whole around whatever they do for Regiments... eventually.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Corrode wrote:
SM Chapter Tactics not affecting vehicles is a design choice, not a mistake.

ooh, is the complaining about that starting up already? Let me get my tear cup, I've been keeping it ready once I saw that after two editions of being the only faction with chapter tactics, space marines now have the most restrictive chapter tactics out of everybody.

I mean, "you had it good last edition so now you should suffer" is just a terrible attitude. And it does seem like SMs and CSMs got kinda screwed on a bunch of their vehicles not getting traits, at least if the Guard codex is how most others will be done (and if Guard are unique in getting traits on almost everything except flyers, that also raises questions). Like, why? It's pretty hard to think of a game balance justification for this in most cases, unless they're worried about the interaction of Tactics and future Primarch auras. But even there I'm not sure what the important difference could be between a Predator and a Mortis Contemptor Dreadnought. I guess with CSMs they had to worry about stacking buffs on DAEMON vehicles.

The best argument I can come up with for the difference is fluff -- part of what GW wants to accomplish with Chapter Tactics is to encourage people to bring fluffy armies. Their vision of a fluffy Marine army involves lots of actual Marines, with the units that don't get Tactics playing more of a supporting role. Meanwhile they have no problem with Guard armies that consist entirely of tanks.

So tell me again why superheavies would be out as far as regiments go?

Superheavy tank regiments absolutely exist in the fluff, and also absolutely recruit from the same home worlds as tank regiments, artillery regiments, or infantry regiments.

I don't really get why they'd be any different.

 argonak wrote:
You're using their faction special character to get those bonuses, so I should hope it would be nice. He's essentially a chapter master.

I don't know how c chimeras are worthwhile though. You could use move move move to go 12" + 2d6 instead. Use the chimera points for more men.

You can't assault after a Move order, because it forces you to run and IG don't have a special rule for charging after running.

So you'd still be waiting until turn 2 to make the charge, the only difference is whether the enemy spends that turn shooting your assault squad or a Chimera. Considering how squishy Guardsmen in the open are, you'd much rather they shoot the Chimera.

Edit: also the Chimera lets you spend the first turn shooting with just over half the squad inside, since an assault squad is probably a bunch of lasguns and maybe a flamer in their one special weapon slot.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
I'm preparing for the outrage about to hit these forums from those who went and bought 150 guardsmen for using as conscript spam about to find out that they are BS5+ and can't benefit from orders/commissar lol (my own guess, not fact or confirmed)

Conscript nerf was inevitable, what exactly they do with them should be interesting.

No joke, I had a friend who nearly did this but luckily spent his money on a verity of other units.

Mordian preview is up and came with this bit that appears to a straight up rules buff

Grinding Advance now allows any Leman Russ moving at under half its allotted Move value to fire its primary weapon TWICE, while still allowing the unit to fire Heavy weapons without penalty on the move. Armoured regiments – in the Mordians and beyond – are going to be very dangerous indeed in the new codex.



I've played well over a dozen games with AM and I've only ever moved a Leman Russ once. This could be useful.

I'm hoping that GW only lightly nerfs conscripts so that they're still usable. If they do drop an exterminatus on them those models won't be wasted though: 70% of the IG infantry roster is the same model.

Edit: Also that's great news about the LRBT, absolutely amazing!

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Mordian preview is up and came with this bit that appears to a straight up rules buff

Grinding Advance now allows any Leman Russ moving at under half its allotted Move value to fire its primary weapon TWICE, while still allowing the unit to fire Heavy weapons without penalty on the move. Armoured regiments – in the Mordians and beyond – are going to be very dangerous indeed in the new codex.



I've played well over a dozen games with AM and I've only ever moved a Leman Russ once. This could be useful.

To clarify - only the turret weapons can fire on the move without penalty. The hull and sponson weapons (and a pintle Heavy Stubber) would suffer the move and shoot penalties.

Wowowowwowowwoowwowowowowow

I am terrifed to see what they do to Baneblades.

The new stratagem is OP with them: Baneblades can always fire overwatch and can never be prevented except by psychic powers (i.e. having an enemy unit within 1" does not stop them from firing their weapons).

Now they can do it hitting on 4+ if they're mordian, 5+ if they're catachan.

Whaaaatt

GW is contradicting with itself.
The rulesbox cleary mentions only the turret weapon while the text says "while still allowing the unit to fire Heavy weapons without penalty on the move", which would include sponsons.
Shooting the turret weapon twice is good but i really would like that sponsons would be worth it.

But it seems the powerlevel of regiment rules vary much. The Catachan reroll is good. The Mordian overwatch bonus is...not that amazing.
May be it depends on the army composition.

Firefox1 wrote:
GW is contradicting with itself.
The rulesbox cleary mentions only the turret weapon while the text says "while still allowing the unit to fire Heavy weapons without penalty on the move", which would include sponsons.
Shooting the turret weapon twice is good but i really would like that sponsons would be worth it.

They clarified on Facebook that it was just the turret weapon.

Still, being able to fire the turret weapon twice makes having that bonus on the turret weapon more valuable.

Though that does mean I'm still never putting multi-meltas on the sponsons. I'd load it up with heavy bolters. Cheap, generally okay vs everything, fires enough shots that it's not entirely useless at -1 to hit. Or heavy flamers if you're *really* planning to get close, though if they're still 17 points each I'd be reluctant.

This does mean your turret weapon will very much be a primary now though. 2d6 on the BC/Executioner, the Exterminator back up to 8. And then there's the Punisher with an absolutely horrifying 40.

Keep in mind you dont *have* to move, and not moving at all still allows you to shoot the turret gun twice. And sponsons *do* add a decent bit of firepower.

Technically with that stratagem and the Mordian doctrines, I think you can actually hit on 4+ Overwatch. All this bodes well for me as custom regiment is a Mordian trained, Cadian armed regiment.

 Tyr13 wrote:
Keep in mind you dont *have* top move, and not moving at all still allows you to shoot the turret gun twice. And sponsons *do* add a decent bit of firepower.

This just means you can have tanks like demolishers and punishers really bring the heat while escorting your infantry squads to grab objectives. I like it! Of course my fav has been and will continue to be the classic LRBT because it can reliably wound just about anything with a good amount of shots.

That Russ buff alone might get me to commit to 8th. That's pretty significant.

Asmodai wrote:

Firefox1 wrote:
GW is contradicting with itself.
The rulesbox cleary mentions only the turret weapon while the text says "while still allowing the unit to fire Heavy weapons without penalty on the move", which would include sponsons.
Shooting the turret weapon twice is good but i really would like that sponsons would be worth it.

They clarified on Facebook that it was just the turret weapon.

Ah thanks. Don´t use FB. Would be nice of them to correct their text.

ross-128 wrote:Still, being able to fire the turret weapon twice makes having that bonus on the turret weapon more valuable.

Though that does mean I'm still never putting multi-meltas on the sponsons. I'd load it up with heavy bolters. Cheap, generally okay vs everything, fires enough shots that it's not entirely useless at -1 to hit. Or heavy flamers if you're *really* planning to get close, though if they're still 17 points each I'd be reluctant.

This does mean your turret weapon will very much be a primary now though. 2d6 on the BC/Executioner, the Exterminator back up to 8. And then there's the Punisher with an absolutely horrifying 40.

Agreed.
HBs ftw. I can´t see flamers on them as they are too short ranged and
1. you could either try to move fast and get them going, while not making use of double shooting or
2. move halve speed and make use of firing the turret weapon twice and not using the flamers.

Flamers are way too pricey for defensive weaponry and which turret, that one would take, is that bad that you would prefer no. 1?

Maybe the Exterminator get it´s value up before shooting twice. Either way some choice are way too bad to be considered.

Imagine a catachan BC/Executioner.

Yeah, I think really there's three main secondary loadouts to consider:
1: HB spam, for when you're planning to grinding advance up the board.
2: HB+LC, for when you're probably not going to move and want that extra anti-tank shot.
3: PC+LC, for when you are absolutely positively not going anywhere, want solid anti-tank out to 36" (and a LC out to 48" at least), and have a way to mitigate Gets Hot rolls.

 ross-128 wrote:
Yeah, I think really there's three main secondary loadouts to consider:
1: HB spam, for when you're planning to grinding advance up the board.
2: HB+LC, for when you're probably not going to move and want that extra anti-tank shot.
3: PC+LC, for when you are absolutely positively not going anywhere, want solid anti-tank out to 36" (and a LC out to 48" at least), and have a way to mitigate Gets Hot rolls.

Im HBs all day every day unless its a tank commander. Then I take a LC up front, but still HB on the side. Its too much of a point investment to take MM sponsons and hope you get in range unless your meta is all deep striking. PCs aren't bad either but I still like cheap first when it comes to all of my Guard units.