New Astra Militarum Codex (Pre-Order Next Weekend, Oct 7 Release)

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**SilverAlien**

crimsondave wrote:
Literally, look up ONE post at mine. I get so sick of people lumping us all together because some people won't admit it's OP. There is a large group of us on THIS website that have been open about this.

That's fair, it just seems like a fairly small minority compared to people defending it. Dunno, I mean, being happy about this edition losing what claim it had to balance and the first real case of codex creep (as all the previous codices were at least within spitting distance of each other) isn't exactly going to endear me to even the more moderate ones who are still celebrating what is a massive failure.

**daedalus**

SilverAlien wrote:

That's not at all what I saw, even when I was just lurking on these forums. At least I never saw the overwhelming majority praising broken units and formations. The same holds true in my irl group. The guy who played eldar only used the broken stuff against the tau army or one of the other cheesier lists and both fully admitted which units were broken. But try to even suggest something isn't balanced in the guard player's army.

After the first Adepticon of 7th when we ran Tau/Eldar for the team tournament, we quit playing up until 8th in my local group because the four of us were universally sick of said Tau/Eldar BS, including the guy who was the Tau/Eldar for life. This was a group of people who didn't shy away from playing against leafblower, didn't shy away from playing against space puppies, didn't shy away from playing against 5th ed grey knights even. They really do seem like they're getting worse about balance. I don't know if it's the so-called playtesters, the rule designers, the guys in marketing, or what.

For what it's worth, this trend suggests that by the time you get your codex, you'll have the most powerful crap that you then have to defend against the ranks of angry imperial players. At any rate, I'm going to wait until I see it on the table to pass final judgement. I will continue to defend the index as "really good", but this codex really is genuinely gearing up to be silly overpowered.

**Lone Cat**

Wow! Napoleonic regiments is LIVE!

Will Rough Riders get carapace armor upgrade and swap their lances with lasguns like in 3rd Edition?

**SilverAlien**

I already got my codices, CSM, admech, and DG. You know, the balanced ones that managed to mostly avoid codex creep.

I'd rather not imagine codex creep getting worse. I'd rather we actually had a balanced edition. I actually had hope they might manage it as well, which in retrospect was silly. This is wardian levels of cheese across most of the army, which honestly is something even tau/eldar didn't quite manage, you still had to cherry pick units there.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lone Cat wrote:
Wow! Napoleonic regiments is LIVE!

Will Rough Riders get carapace armor upgrade and swap their lances with lasguns like in 3rd Edition?

Rough riders aren't even in the codex and don't benefit from any of the regiment doctrines from what I can tell.

**Gamgee**

gungo wrote:
Gamgee wrote:
He is kinda... but he also complained about tons of Tau stuff though and thought lots was way too strong. The obvious stuff like riptide wing and storm surge sure. But I've also seen him complain about how strong the Tau were in general without them iirc. We all know how that turned out to not be true.
that's not true commander spam is top tier. And you conveniently ignored how Reece was like orks are the best army and overpowered in all his 8th ed videos and than the truth is they suck and are mid tier at best.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

argonak wrote:
gungo wrote:
sadhvikv wrote:
Was anyone able to get a better look at those plasma gun costs? The video said 13 points, another post in the AM tactics thread says 15 points (for BS3+).

Sorry I said it was 15 becuase in the video he said it was 15 and then said it was 13 for veterans and 7 for everything else. So either he misspoke and said it was 15 when it wasn't or it's only 15 for scions. Either way we will find out soon.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

argonak wrote:
sadhvikv wrote:
Was anyone able to get a better look at those plasma gun costs? The video said 13 points, another post in the AM tactics thread says 15 points (for BS3+).

Marines only pay 13. Scions paying 15 would be idiotic. 13 is fair.
marines don't deepstrike which is why scions are better then marines w plasmaguns. However I think the video just misspoke and it's likely 13 and 7.

Plenty of marines do deepstrike, they've got transports up the wazoo, and scions are already paying for their ability to deepstrike. They cost 3 points more than veterans, and for that they get +1 armor save and deep strike.

I was personally hoping that the grav chutes would be separated (like on reivers) as an upgrade so we didn't have to take the things on every scion unit. Having deep strike standard is annoying when I have all these shiny taurox primes. Nobody ever rides in the damn things. Let me get a discount to ride in my truck and I would.
marines that deepstrike cost significantly more than scions and those transports are still grossly overpriced hence why you don't see drop pods at all any more. In fact you keep seein scions in marine lists which you continue to ignore. Scions are the best plasma gun unit by far it's not even debateable as it's just spammed in tournaments. The fact thier doctrine helps plasmaguns more just makes scion command squads better Then before. And the fact that they are currently making different points for weapons per unit shows that are cognizant of this fact.

I meant in 7th and at the beginning of 8th before commander spam was discovered. The Tau seen massive price hikes beyond what even all the other armies got. Imp plasma weapons got a major str buff. Imp weapons are all just as strong or stronger than ours right now. Heck even our 30inch ranged firewarriors are meaning less and less as more armies gain access to the ability to tie the ranged focused faction. We got nothing. If it wasn't for the commander+drones slipping through the balance net I assure you Tau lists were poised to be some of the worst in the entire edition.

**Galas**

SilverAlien wrote:
I already got my codices, CSM, admech, and DG. You know, the balanced ones that managed to mostly avoid codex creep.

I'd rather not imagine codex creep getting worse. I'd rather we actually had a balanced edition. I actually had hope they might manage it as well, which in retrospect was silly. This is wardian levels of cheese across most of the army, which honestly is something even tau/eldar didn't quite manage, you still had to cherry pick units there.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lone Cat wrote:
Wow! Napoleonic regiments is LIVE!

Will Rough Riders get carapace armor upgrade and swap their lances with lasguns like in 3rd Edition?

Rough riders aren't even in the codex and don't benefit from any of the regiment doctrines from what I can tell.

If they have the Regiment keyword they'll benefid from the regiment doctrines. (But I don't know if they have it)

**BrookM**

Rough Riders have the <REGIMENT> keyword, so rejoice.

**broxus**

argonak wrote:
SeanDrake wrote:
B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?

So who on the playtest crew plays guard?

Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.

If that's what his supposed friends are like, he's better off not playing. What a bunch of drama queens.

It is more than that I now feel guilty ever even playing with guard. My son and I both now refuse to play with guard anymore since we realized our opponents would have zero fun. This is the most absurd codex release ever.

**rippounet**

Seems to me some people are forgetting that the basic imperial guard is kinda crap: it's a T3 model shooting T3 weapons at BS4+.
So yeah, guards get plenty of nice buffs (orders and now, regimental doctrines) and toys (tanks) to compensate.
But the core of the army is still terribly squishy. Without buffs, a mere twin-linked assault cannons volley is enough to wipe out an entire squad. A single character from almost any other army can wipe a squad of IG by itself.
And the list goes on.
So yeah, the new codex delivers some incredible goodness. But if you actually take the time to think about it, it is far from broken.
Just remember that many guard players don't play conscripts (I've never done it so far, and I'm reluctant to try). Take away the fearless cordon of cannon fodder from the army and it becomes far less formidable.
Now, let's continue the thought experiment. Let's assume that your local guard player is *actually* an imperial guard player and doesn't play with Celestine or Guilliman or assassins, or other stuff that isn't in the codex.
Suddenly it doesn't seem so bad, does it? In fact, all these buffs for the infantry and tanks might even actually make sense... After all, a single well-played 'zerker unit on the charge could conceivably wipe out around 30 guards at once (I've actually done this, since I also play WE).
Let's also remember that because IG has so many units to deploy, the opposite army will generally go first and thus be able to get rid of a few things... And now you might start to wonder if a standard IG army is even *that* strong.

tl;dr: the codex is only "broken" if you think all guard players are going to play ultra-compettive armies. Standard guard armies will be fine. It'll take some time for players of other armies to adapt... But in the end it'll be a strong codex, no more no less.

**broxus**

str00dles1 wrote:
gendoikari87 wrote:
as a mechanicus player it's hard not to be salty at this release. Can someone confirm the point cost on the engineseer?

Yea. Its obvious they can make a lot of units good, and have faction abilities that make a lot of factions/playstles useful.

Admech got shafted hard with basically Codex Cawl/Robots. The small amount of options is pretty bad.

As for the superheavy worry, I don't get why people care.

Any ITC or major tourney capped power level of units to 30 I believe. So you cant take baneblades/shadowswords etc

If you fight it, its going to be in a regular casual game.

Most Baneblades are less than 30 points. Big problem is also regimental traits seem to impact everything in the AM army. However, all other codexes only impact infantry and walkers.

**H.B.M.C.**

NenkotaMoon wrote:
Rough Riders are not in codex.

No model.
No rules.

I keep sayin' it...

**SilverAlien**

BrookM wrote:
Rough Riders have the <REGIMENT> keyword, so rejoice.

The problem being they are neither infantry nor vehicles. Meaning, best case scenario, half the tactics will do nothing for them. If the wording specifies infantry and vehicles for all doctrines, they get nothing.

**Therion**

broxus wrote:
str00dles1 wrote:
gendoikari87 wrote:
as a mechanicus player it's hard not to be salty at this release. Can someone confirm the point cost on the engineseer?

Yea. Its obvious they can make a lot of units good, and have faction abilities that make a lot of factions/playstles useful.

Admech got shafted hard with basically Codex Cawl/Robots. The small amount of options is pretty bad.

As for the superheavy worry, I don't get why people care.

Any ITC or major tourney capped power level of units to 30 I believe. So you cant take baneblades/shadowswords etc

If you fight it, its going to be in a regular casual game.

Most Baneblades are less than 30 points. Big problem is also regimental traits seem to impact everything in the AM army. However, all other codexes only impact infantry and walkers.

Let's be honest, army wide buffs that don't affect one specific type of unit, for example tanks, is a terrible internal design choice. Everyone looking for a competitive edge will just avoid the unaffected units altogether.

**SilverAlien**

rippounet wrote:

Seems to me some people are forgetting that the basic imperial guard is kinda crap: it's a T3 model shooting T3 weapons at BS4+.
So yeah, guards get plenty of nice buffs (orders and now, regimental doctrines) and toys (tanks) to compensate.
But the core of the army is still terribly squishy. Without buffs, a mere twin-linked assault cannons volley is enough to wipe out an entire squad. A single character from almost any other army can wipe a squad of IG by itself.

A guard squad costs 40 points though. They are so cheap that they are actually tougher for their points than space marines. A twin assault cannon can kill a little less than 6 guardsman or a little less than 3 marines. 6 guardsman cost less than even just two marines. So the idea guard is squishy needs to die in a fire, normal guard infantry are some of the toughest infantry in the game for their cost. Unless you do something stupid like start outfitting normal guardsman with weapons that cost almost as much as the squad itself, it's not a squishy unit in the slightest.

**Dionysodorus**

rippounet wrote:

Seems to me some people are forgetting that the basic imperial guard is kinda crap: it's a T3 model shooting T3 weapons at BS4+.
So yeah, guards get plenty of nice buffs (orders and now, regimental doctrines) and toys (tanks) to compensate.
But the core of the army is still terribly squishy. Without buffs, a mere twin-linked assault cannons volley is enough to wipe out an entire squad. A single character from almost any other army can wipe a squad of IG by itself.
And the list goes on.
So yeah, the new codex delivers some incredible goodness. But if you actually take the time to think about it, it is far from broken.
Just remember that many guard players don't play conscripts (I've never done it so far, and I'm reluctant to try). Take away the fearless cordon of cannon fodder from the army and it becomes far less formidable.
Now, let's continue the thought experiment. Let's assume that your local guard player is *actually* an imperial guard player and doesn't play with Celestine or Guilliman or assassins, or other stuff that isn't in the codex.
Suddenly it doesn't seem so bad, does it? In fact, all these buffs for the infantry and tanks might even actually make sense... After all, a single well-played 'zerker unit on the charge could conceivably wipe out around 30 guards at once (I've actually done this, since I also play WE).
Let's also remember that because IG has so many units to deploy, the opposite army will generally go first and thus be able to get rid of a few things... And now you might start to wonder if a standard IG army is even *that* strong.

tl;dr: the codex is only "broken" if you think all guard players are going to play ultra-compettive armies. Standard guard armies will be fine. It'll take some time for players of other armies to adapt... But in the end it'll be a strong codex, no more no less.

Guard Infantry squads were already among the best Troops choices in the game. You talk a lot about how vulnerable they are and how little damage they do per model but you don't bring up points at all, and those are kind of important. They certainly out-shoot and out-tank tactical Marines in large numbers, where you can't assume the Marines are always in cover. I mean, a twin assault cannon firing at BS3+ expects to kill only 22.2 points of Guardsmen (I'm not sure why you think it's enough to take out a whole squad), but 34.7 points of Marines. Typical combat characters are far worse against Guardsmen than against almost any other kind of infantry -- basically all of them are at least S5 AP-1, sometimes with multiple damage. Ultimately, you get a little over 3 Guardsmen per Marine, and quality just doesn't make up for quantity. Offensively, they put out 3 S3 shots at BS4+, which is a lot better than 1 S4 shot at BS3+. They even do better against T6 and T7! Likewise Guardsmen are much better in CC than Marines. Of course, Marines aren't very good and nobody's taking them in large numbers, but this is pretty striking. I'm not sure what real competition a basic Infantry squad has other than Conscripts and Horrors. Battle Sisters come close when fighting with AP0 weapons I guess, though of course they're far more vulnerable to anything that ignores their armor.

To be clear, I broadly agree that it's too soon to panic about buffs to tanks and superheavies. Certainly something needed to be done here. Most of the buffs are to things that weren't already competitive and so there's no reason to expect that they've made the army overall that much stronger. But Guard infantry of all kinds was incredibly strong and really only got stronger here, and things like Earthshaker Batteries and Manticores got a bit stronger too. That said, it's worth noting that GW didn't give them doctrines that are nearly as strong as some of the other factions' rules. There's no Salamanders regiment, which would have more-or-less doubled the firepower of every Infantry squad's heavy weapon. There's no Raven Guard regiment, which would have been dominant in any match against another gunline. And Scion plasma seems to have been nerfed, and that's very welcome, though it seems to me unlikely to make up for all the rest. After all, Primaris Psykers and Astropaths haven't been touched, and all the rest of their infantry got at least a little better, and they fantastic choices for relics and warlord traits.

All in all I think it's very likely that Guard are by far the strongest solo faction right now, even pretending that Elysians don't exist. Sure, you do even better with soup. Celestine is broken. Assassins are great. But who else is coming close? I mean, they were already way up there.

**broxus**

tankboy145 wrote:
SeanDrake wrote:
tankboy145 wrote:
argonak wrote:
SeanDrake wrote:
B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?

So who on the playtest crew plays guard?

Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.

If that's what his supposed friends are like, he's better off not playing. What a bunch of drama queens.

Completely agree. This is a game. Get over it. Played guard since 5th I'm glad they're finally great!
.

Ahhh a leafblower player given the bitterness and 5th edition start.

Look it may be an alien concept to some but the game should be played for "fun" given the current power level of guard and that the codex seemingly only contains buffs often to already good units. Even fluffy lists are going to be very powerful and in a lot of cases not fun to play against, guard are all ready pretty tedious to play against and all the additional rolls are not going to help.

8th Guard are the new space marines in that they have multiple ways of ignoring big chunks of the basic rules and that ultimately was one of the major issue with 7th and we saw how that turned out.

Well to start never played leaf blower or played against it. Like I said russes and infantry squads for me. Only ever got my first artillery piece(manticore) right before 8th edition dropped and I've never run vendettas as I don't care for flyers. So only thing ive tried out is mech vets. But they were pretty bad last edition as were vehicles in general which is when I started trying chimeras. But nice assumption on

And like I said the only crazy stuff that is bothersome is conscript spam, mortars(chick hws got a point hike) and super heavies.
And let's be honest aside from the shadow sword and the transport superheavy none of the other were really that good as for a few more points an imperial knight was far superior in every way. So sure the shadow sword now hits a minimum of 3 times but can hit max 9. It onliterates what it shoots at...BUT THATS WHAT A VOLCANOE CANNON DOES!!!! sure maybe it should get a point increase gw is pretty good with coming out with fast faq's and chapter approved as well. But if your a strait tourney player guess what! If it's that freaking good the tourney will probably limit it to one super heavy baneblade variant per army or just ban it in general like most tournaments have in the past.

And everyone cried how flavor was taken away from guard when the index dropped. Well what did you think was going to happen when regimental doctrine came out, it's free bonuses to allow you to play armies different ways.

Basilisk getting ap3. It was needed to make it different from battle tank as battle tank now if moves half fires twice. I would much rather have a battle tank moving slowly double tapping than a 2d6 pick the highest with 1 point strengths night and same ap and damage. Now with it being ap3 the earthshaker differentiates itself from having too similar a profile.

Scions got their boost in plasma and that was needed and expected.

Conscripts are still great for what they do. I've only ever run 40 conscripts, 2 units of 20 so that won't change how I run them. But I've never had an opponent complain about 40 conscripts. Sure if you play against that douche that brings 80+ then it gets annoying but I've only ever seen that at tournaments. They will probably get limited more at tournements or even get a further nerf from chapter approved or an FAQ.

As each and every codex comes out further I'm sure everyone will cry about each one as well with whatever they get for their armies. It's sad when people have to abuse the best units. Yea it might seem like a casual guard army is rather hard to fight against but that's what will happen with each and every army that gets their codex updated. I know prior to this release I struggled against marines and GK because of all the new things they have.

Let time play out. Let FAQ's and chapter approved come out, let other armies get their codexs with their buffs. I'm sure guard won't be at the top for long.

Sure Volcano cannons should kill stufff. The previous points D6 shots at 444 points already did it exceedingly well. I had used it since the index release and I already felt dirty due to its power. It was an insanely good option before. However, now with 3D3 shots, only costing 398 points, and capable of moving and shooting without penalty, psychic ability buffs, and regiment traits/ strategems buffing it, I mean WTF. No other armies “center piece” unit survives a single round of shooting against this. Before the cost and move and shoot penalty helped balance it out. In the new codex the Shadowsword has zero weaknesses.

Basilisk getting AP3. I mean did anyone not think they were exceptionally good for only 108pts? now add in the fact that regiment traits/ strategems buff it again makes a very good unit broken. On average this thing gets 5 mini lascannon shots a turn that doesn’t need LOS. 3 units of these means goodbye all heavy infantry and vehicles.

Three basilisks is in conjunction with the Shadowsword is very powerful against monsters, infantry and tanks. After you figure out how to deal with that you only need to develop plan to beat the other 1278 points in the AM list. Good luck.

**Dionysodorus**

broxus wrote:

Most Baneblades are less than 30 points. Big problem is also regimental traits seem to impact everything in the AM army. However, all other codexes only impact infantry and walkers.

This isn't really true. Note that Guard don't get doctrines on flyers, for example. And the restriction to walkers in the Marine codex is kind of dumb. Like, is there actually any good reason why Space Marines don't get Tactics on Predators? As-is they can take a Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought and get better firepower on a more durable platform with Tactics. Would Land Raiders be broken with Tactics? If the decision here was motivated by game balance it seems like a pretty bad one -- Marines just don't bring the worse units that don't get Tactics. Razorbacks are really the only thing that come to mind as a potential problem, but clearly they're just too cheap. Now, if it's fluff-motivated then it's harder to argue with. Maybe the goal was to incentivize bringing actual Marines in Marine armies. Now, with Chaos maybe there was a reasonable concern about giving Tactics to Daemon-keyworded units, given the existence of The Changeling and other possible buffs in a future Daemons codex, but still the result of the Chaos codex appears to be that very few people want to use the daemon engines.

Edit: And, like, Tactics are fun. Surely the right approach to Baneblades is to give them doctrines and then balance their point cost around that. People love this stuff.

**crimsondave**

rippounet wrote:

Seems to me some people are forgetting that the basic imperial guard is kinda crap: it's a T3 model shooting T3 weapons at BS4+.
So yeah, guards get plenty of nice buffs (orders and now, regimental doctrines) and toys (tanks) to compensate.
But the core of the army is still terribly squishy. Without buffs, a mere twin-linked assault cannons volley is enough to wipe out an entire squad. A single character from almost any other army can wipe a squad of IG by itself.
And the list goes on.
So yeah, the new codex delivers some incredible goodness. But if you actually take the time to think about it, it is far from broken.
Just remember that many guard players don't play conscripts (I've never done it so far, and I'm reluctant to try). Take away the fearless cordon of cannon fodder from the army and it becomes far less formidable.
Now, let's continue the thought experiment. Let's assume that your local guard player is *actually* an imperial guard player and doesn't play with Celestine or Guilliman or assassins, or other stuff that isn't in the codex.
Suddenly it doesn't seem so bad, does it? In fact, all these buffs for the infantry and tanks might even actually make sense... After all, a single well-played 'zerker unit on the charge could conceivably wipe out around 30 guards at once (I've actually done this, since I also play WE).
Let's also remember that because IG has so many units to deploy, the opposite army will generally go first and thus be able to get rid of a few things... And now you might start to wonder if a standard IG army is even *that* strong.

tl;dr: the codex is only "broken" if you think all guard players are going to play ultra-compettive armies. Standard guard armies will be fine. It'll take some time for players of other armies to adapt... But in the end it'll be a strong codex, no more no less.

Just stop. We are ridiculously OP. We were blowing people off the board with the INDEX. If you watch the mini war gaming review, what's his name is 28-1 with the index. If you want to troll all the tournaments congrats. If your like me, though, your left wondering how anybody is going to have fun playing the army I just spent the last two years building and painting. Who could have guessed infantry horde with scions would be ultra cheese during 7th? Seriously, my army looks like a power gamer built it.

**Colonel Cross**

Well Owen also doesn't use pure guard. Celestine is quite common in his lists. And I must say, his tactics and lists are ... odd. Often featuring dual Valkyries. Which were dog gak before. Now he is going to do even better.

**gainsay**

Seriously, my army looks like a power gamer built it.

I am having the same issue with my IG force. I've spent hundreds of hours building and painting and literally lost every game of 7th I played. Now all I hear is complaining during games and get treated like a WAAC player. I never played conscripts and I went as far as to switch to a mech list and only lost one game using the index.

The real crime here is the buffs to super heavies, conscripts and the basilisks imho. This edition lends itself to the IG's army composition and strengths and without making the army total crap its always going to be good in the current ruleset. I'm sure GW is going to FAQ the gak out of this dex.

**Slayer-Fan123**

SilverAlien wrote:
rippounet wrote:

Seems to me some people are forgetting that the basic imperial guard is kinda crap: it's a T3 model shooting T3 weapons at BS4+.
So yeah, guards get plenty of nice buffs (orders and now, regimental doctrines) and toys (tanks) to compensate.
But the core of the army is still terribly squishy. Without buffs, a mere twin-linked assault cannons volley is enough to wipe out an entire squad. A single character from almost any other army can wipe a squad of IG by itself.

A guard squad costs 40 points though. They are so cheap that they are actually tougher for their points than space marines. A twin assault cannon can kill a little less than 6 guardsman or a little less than 3 marines. 6 guardsman cost less than even just two marines. So the idea guard is squishy needs to die in a fire, normal guard infantry are some of the toughest infantry in the game for their cost. Unless you do something stupid like start outfitting normal guardsman with weapons that cost almost as much as the squad itself, it's not a squishy unit in the slightest.

Here's the math to back it up, folks. Please keep telling me that Guard infantry are squishy.

They were last edition when you had no cover and most basic weapons ignored your armor while being too expensi e for that. Now you get armor to anything worse than Sternguard and Rubric Bolters. How are any of you defending this?

**Arbitrator**

SilverAlien wrote:
Therion wrote:
This is a great codex that will bring variety to the army. Before what did we have? Conscripts, Scions, Tauroxes and indirect fire? All well and good but the only variation was some liked to drop in Assassin spam, some liked to drop in Psyker spam.

Now what we have? We don't even know yet, but for sure we'll have a lot more powerful army variants, and we didn't even lose the previous lists. It's a good codex.

Elysians are still great, assuming they're legal.

If the power level is an issue, blame it on the blandness of AdMech, not on this release. A bland uninspired book with very few interesting things like the AdMech shouldn't be the standard for anything. I'd just let the meta settle and hope future codices are all competitive and spicy.

It amazes me how people will defend absolute cheese when it is for their favorite army. You've got a broken mess of OP bs. The "bland" codices look bland because they are balanced, if they had the same options guard has you'd start complaining about guard being bland again.

I still don't get why guard players can't admit when things are busted. Admech players generally agreed the convocation formations were busted for all their free stuff, tau players new the riptide/storm surge was OP, never saw eldar players arguing scatter bikes were super balanced. Why is it just guard who likes to pretend their absurd cheese is balanced and fair?

I've never seen Guard players say Conscripts aren't broken and Plasma Scions aren't OP.

The problem is when people start screaming THE CODEX IS OP, WTF NO MORE NERFS? I HATE GUARD NOW. No, it's literally two units, whom only get totally and utterly broken when used to support OTHER Imperial armies.

Leman Russ' were crap.
Baneblades were useless.
Infantry Squads were okay.
Veterans were pointless.
Hellhounds were okay.
Sentinels were (as always) crap.
Ogryns were okay.
Scions were powerful.
Conscripts were broken.

Now the Codex still has hilariously broken Conscripts/Scions, but there's far more internal-balance among the rest of the stuff. So long as you avoid those two (and Scions are really only broken with stacked plasma), it's a damn good, powerful army but not unstoppable which is ultimately what should be striven for in a codex.

Also seriously, hating on Conscript spam is practically a meme at this point. I'm willing to bet the actual numbers of Conscript spammers are slim, just because WAAC players who invested in 150 Conscripts would've bought whatever else was broken in it's place anyway. The only other people with 150-ish Guardsmen will be people who played Guard for years, who generally speaking I bet will play much more diverse lists than Girlyman/Conscripts/Scions just so they don't get boo'ed out of the club.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Therion wrote:

If the power level is an issue, blame it on the blandness of AdMech, not on this release. A boring uninspired book with very few interesting things like the AdMech shouldn't be the standard for anything. I'd just let the meta settle and hope future codices are all competitive and spicy.

I like you ignored the power level of FOUR other Codices when you made that thought. See, it wasn't just that the Guard codex is busted. It's all AdMechs fault. It can't be that two things happened at once, that the AdMech codex was a bit of a letdown crunch and fluff wise compared to SM/GK/CSM/DG and that the Guard codex is busted. Nope, can't be that at all.

**kurhanik**

Huh, I would have guessed that conscripts and infantry squads would go up 1 point per model, just because the doctrines give a nice buff to both of them.

Seems like the pros are:
-Plasma got price hike for scions - nice because it wasn't scions so much as plasma ON scions that was busted.
-Russes are worth using again
-Regimental Doctrines bring character back to the guard
-Conscripts got nerfed (though they could probably use a touch more tweaking)
-The internal balance of the codex feels about right, barring a few too good units and a few too bad units

Cons:
-Rough Riders are gone
-Conscripts and Infantry Squads are still out performing a bit
-If the plasma nerf hits Veterans too, they will underperform even more.
-The external balance is a bit off - mostly Conscripts and Infantry Squads due to their spamability.

With all the doom and gloom, I have a bit of a question: when do you guys think this book went to press? They probably do this stuff several months in advance, I'd assume the codex was finalized right around 8th's launch at the latest - before the current meta of conscripts everywhere came about. Chapter Approved is where we'll see more nerfs than buffs for Guard.

**Galas**

No problem guys, they'll make Conscripts 4 points and Infantry Guardsmen 5 points with Chapter Approved.

Now with Veterans to be honest I don't know what can be done with them to make them worthwile. I'll love if they add the option to have Scions without deepstrike for 2 ppm less.

**gainsay**

Arbitrator wrote:

Leman Russ' were crap.
Baneblades were useless.
Infantry Squads were okay.
Veterans were pointless.
Hellhounds were okay.
Sentinels were (as always) crap.
Ogryns were okay.
Scions were powerful.
Conscripts were broken.

Veterans, Leman Russ, Infantry Squads, Hellhounds are all solid units in the index. Played them all in many tournaments and still did very well. The only people saying there crap are the WAAC tournament players. Every god damn unit is rated by these players and only perpetuates the negative douchebaggery of the 40K community.

**Galas**

I agree with you Gainsay in the part about the perception of the units,but for me Veterans and Leman Russes where pretty disappointing. Many times I have seen that in the internet theres only three states for a unit: OP (This is for a unit that is really, really OP. Like, God-Tier) Usable (This is a euphemism for OP) and Crap (This is for the rest of the units, both for units that are balanced and units that are actually pretty bad).

And personally I find redundant to call tournament players WAAC. Yeah, thats why you go to a competitive tournament, to win. Theres nothing bad about that. Even chasing the meta with the most OP flavour of the month doesn't has nothing bad about it, as long as is used in a competitive tournament.

**kurhanik**

Arbitrator wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:
Therion wrote:
This is a great codex that will bring variety to the army. Before what did we have? Conscripts, Scions, Tauroxes and indirect fire? All well and good but the only variation was some liked to drop in Assassin spam, some liked to drop in Psyker spam.

Now what we have? We don't even know yet, but for sure we'll have a lot more powerful army variants, and we didn't even lose the previous lists. It's a good codex.

Elysians are still great, assuming they're legal.

If the power level is an issue, blame it on the blandness of AdMech, not on this release. A bland uninspired book with very few interesting things like the AdMech shouldn't be the standard for anything. I'd just let the meta settle and hope future codices are all competitive and spicy.

It amazes me how people will defend absolute cheese when it is for their favorite army. You've got a broken mess of OP bs. The "bland" codices look bland because they are balanced, if they had the same options guard has you'd start complaining about guard being bland again.

I still don't get why guard players can't admit when things are busted. Admech players generally agreed the convocation formations were busted for all their free stuff, tau players new the riptide/storm surge was OP, never saw eldar players arguing scatter bikes were super balanced. Why is it just guard who likes to pretend their absurd cheese is balanced and fair?

I've never seen Guard players say Conscripts aren't broken and Plasma Scions aren't OP.

The problem is when people start screaming THE CODEX IS OP, WTF NO MORE NERFS? I HATE GUARD NOW. No, it's literally two units, whom only get totally and utterly broken when used to support OTHER Imperial armies.

Leman Russ' were crap.
Baneblades were useless.
Infantry Squads were okay.
Veterans were pointless.
Hellhounds were okay.
Sentinels were (as always) crap.
Ogryns were okay.
Scions were powerful.
Conscripts were broken.

Now the Codex still has hilariously broken Conscripts/Scions, but there's far more internal-balance among the rest of the stuff. So long as you avoid those two (and Scions are really only broken with stacked plasma), it's a damn good, powerful army but not unstoppable which is ultimately what should be striven for in a codex.

Also seriously, hating on Conscript spam is practically a meme at this point. I'm willing to bet the actual numbers of Conscript spammers are slim, just because WAAC players who invested in 150 Conscripts would've bought whatever else was broken in it's place anyway. The only other people with 150-ish Guardsmen will be people who played Guard for years, who generally speaking I bet will play much more diverse lists than Girlyman/Conscripts/Scions just so they don't get boo'ed out of the club.

Basically this.

I'd say Infantry Squads are more than okay, though not brokenly powerful. With Regimental Doctrines giving them more abilities, I can easily see them and conscripts going up a point each and still be worth taking while cutting back on spam.

Galas wrote:No problem guys, they'll make Conscripts 4 points and Infantry Guardsmen 5 points with Chapter Approved.

Now with Veterans to be honest I don't know what can be done with them to make them worthwile. I'll love if they add the option to have Scions without deepstrike for 2 ppm less.

Well, if both Conscripts and Infantry Squads go up 1 ppm each, but Veterans don't, that in and of itself will be a small buff to them. Though yeah, overall Veterans are still not in the best place (unless somehow all of the reviewers / rumor mongers missed veteran doctrines returning somehow).

**Galas**

I think the problem with Veterans are Tempestus Scions. Is like having Tactical Marines, Better Tactical Marines, and then Sternguard. They basically occupy the same role.

**crimsondave**

kurhanik wrote:
Arbitrator wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:
Therion wrote:
This is a great codex that will bring variety to the army. Before what did we have? Conscripts, Scions, Tauroxes and indirect fire? All well and good but the only variation was some liked to drop in Assassin spam, some liked to drop in Psyker spam.

Now what we have? We don't even know yet, but for sure we'll have a lot more powerful army variants, and we didn't even lose the previous lists. It's a good codex.

Elysians are still great, assuming they're legal.

If the power level is an issue, blame it on the blandness of AdMech, not on this release. A bland uninspired book with very few interesting things like the AdMech shouldn't be the standard for anything. I'd just let the meta settle and hope future codices are all competitive and spicy.

It amazes me how people will defend absolute cheese when it is for their favorite army. You've got a broken mess of OP bs. The "bland" codices look bland because they are balanced, if they had the same options guard has you'd start complaining about guard being bland again.

I still don't get why guard players can't admit when things are busted. Admech players generally agreed the convocation formations were busted for all their free stuff, tau players new the riptide/storm surge was OP, never saw eldar players arguing scatter bikes were super balanced. Why is it just guard who likes to pretend their absurd cheese is balanced and fair?

I've never seen Guard players say Conscripts aren't broken and Plasma Scions aren't OP.

The problem is when people start screaming THE CODEX IS OP, WTF NO MORE NERFS? I HATE GUARD NOW. No, it's literally two units, whom only get totally and utterly broken when used to support OTHER Imperial armies.

Leman Russ' were crap.
Baneblades were useless.
Infantry Squads were okay.
Veterans were pointless.
Hellhounds were okay.
Sentinels were (as always) crap.
Ogryns were okay.
Scions were powerful.
Conscripts were broken.

Now the Codex still has hilariously broken Conscripts/Scions, but there's far more internal-balance among the rest of the stuff. So long as you avoid those two (and Scions are really only broken with stacked plasma), it's a damn good, powerful army but not unstoppable which is ultimately what should be striven for in a codex.

Also seriously, hating on Conscript spam is practically a meme at this point. I'm willing to bet the actual numbers of Conscript spammers are slim, just because WAAC players who invested in 150 Conscripts would've bought whatever else was broken in it's place anyway. The only other people with 150-ish Guardsmen will be people who played Guard for years, who generally speaking I bet will play much more diverse lists than Girlyman/Conscripts/Scions just so they don't get boo'ed out of the club.

Basically this.

I'd say Infantry Squads are more than okay, though not brokenly powerful. With Regimental Doctrines giving them more abilities, I can easily see them and conscripts going up a point each and still be worth taking while cutting back on spam.

Galas wrote:No problem guys, they'll make Conscripts 4 points and Infantry Guardsmen 5 points with Chapter Approved.

Now with Veterans to be honest I don't know what can be done with them to make them worthwile. I'll love if they add the option to have Scions without deepstrike for 2 ppm less.

Well, if both Conscripts and Infantry Squads go up 1 ppm each, but Veterans don't, that in and of itself will be a small buff to them. Though yeah, overall Veterans are still not in the best place (unless somehow all of the reviewers / rumor mongers missed veteran doctrines returning somehow).

The points didn't change. Still 3 point conscripts, 4 point IG unless I'm cross-eyed. I paused during one of the reviews on the points page and saw it.

I guess the bright side is when the WAAC players move on to the next cheese we'll have tons of cheap IG to buy off ebay.