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Martel732 wrote:
No, there isn't, because you need to take them in 5 man teams with a single lascannon and then cower in cover. Every other use them is likely to end poorly.

The thread is about what could be changed in the rules to make them useful. Didn't you read the OP?

Simple. 10 man squads fire twice until reduced to five.

Well, again, i'm going to point out the obvious elephant in the room. Marine squads are defined solely on their weapon slots. The other marines are overly expensive ablative wound counters. If you want to encourage 10-man squads, you need to make the basic marine worth more than simply an expensive ablative wound counter. You want to make them something that a player would be 'happy' to take, even naked. Either that or go back to forcing players to take a 10-man squad.

 Torga_DW wrote:
Well, again, i'm going to point out the obvious elephant in the room. Marine squads are defined solely on their weapon slots. The other marines are overly expensive ablative wound counters. If you want to encourage 10-man squads, you need to make the basic marine worth more than simply an expensive ablative wound counter. You want to make them something that a player would be 'happy' to take, even naked. Either that or go back to forcing players to take a 10-man squad.

I always thought it kind of goofy that an Imperial Guard can fire his lasgun twice as fast as a marine with a bolter, just cos someone's shouting at them. Maybe give Marines some kind of boost/shot bonus when using Bolt weaponry? One extra shot, maybe? (So 2 at ≤24", 3 at ≤ 12") This would provide a neat little bump to the bolter lads in tac/dev squads, and the pistol lads in Assault squads. Brap brap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just did some maths, and this certainly wouldn't make marines crazily overpowered by any stretch. Looking at the numbers, I think there's a pretty strong case that a guardsman's undercosted at 4pts, and this doesn't even take orders into account.

[Edited because my maths was a total shitshow]



Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, a bolter Marine's damage output, per point, against infantry, only becomes marginally better than an un-ordered lasgun guardsman if you double their bolter shots…

 argonak wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Yeah I agree, Tactics should get the Scion ability to take up to 4 special weapons (admitably one of the scion weapons is a heavy type, but it really probably shouldn't be).

I think then people would be using them just fine. Or Bolters need to get their AP-1 back.

If you do this though, the only thing differing for Intercessors is the extra range. It becomes a slippery slope and I'd like something special for Bolt weapons, but I haven't a clue what. Maybe rolls of 6 to wound force the opponent to reroll a successful save?

So you want to take one of the defining features of rubrics and give it to some randoms...

Then give intercessors ap-2 like rubrics.

 Nazrak wrote:

I always thought it kind of goofy that an Imperial Guard can fire his lasgun twice as fast as a marine with a bolter, just cos someone's shouting at them. Maybe give Marines some kind of boost/shot bonus when using Bolt weaponry? One extra shot, maybe? (So 2 at ≤24", 3 at ≤ 12") This would provide a neat little bump to the bolter lads in tac/dev squads, and the pistol lads in Assault squads. Brap brap.

Yeah and a marine's accuracy improves from 66% to 90% when he stands next to his Captain. When he stands next to an LT his gun suddenly goes from wounding guardsmen 66% of the time to 90% of the time. So?

You can't measure a unit's value purely based on its ability to shoot things. Marines have so many other increases over a normal guardsmen.
+1 WS, +1 BS, +1 S, +1 T, +1 LD, +2 armor SV, ATSKNF, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Krak Grenades. . . .I mean that's some good stuff right there. Would it be fair just to give it away?

Its true that 40k doesn't reward jack of all trades particularly well in its current edition, but unfortunately that's what marines are. As far as I can tell, the complaint isn't just that marines cost too much, its that without additional heavy and special weapons no one wants them. GW tried to make better tacticals with Intercessors, which are just as hated by the people who hate tacticals. I don't think giving them more bolter shots is going to help, those people hate bolters and think they're pointless.

It doesn't help when GW creates a unit like Scions that can take 4 special weapons in a ten man squad, grav chute, and are troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:

So you want to take one of the defining features of rubrics and give it to some randoms...

Indeed. That's the problem with making any change to marines. Marines are the standard which GW bases every other army around. Change marines and you have to change everyone else to accommodate.

The present is a situation I'd need to consider. How I would have run them previously in 5th would have been to take 10 strong (which you wanted to do for weapons anyway back then), and then put the LC in a 5 man squad that sat in cover firing, while putting the special (generally melta) and sarge with combi (plasma or melta) in a razorback.

The other tac squad / lascannon thread convinced me that you need 4 marines to soak wounds for whatever your special is. As such, I'm not honestly sure you want both a special weapon and a combi weapon in your squads now.

I'm actually considering 6 man strong squads, with a combi weapon and a special weapon to maintain the paradigm. It would probably need to be replicated multiple times though. Important to saturate target priority, which is one of the reasons why spam lists are so effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh. This is proposed rules. I dunno then. You could always give them a free weapon if they're 10 man strong. That sounds like something that would go over well.

 argonak wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

I always thought it kind of goofy that an Imperial Guard can fire his lasgun twice as fast as a marine with a bolter, just cos someone's shouting at them. Maybe give Marines some kind of boost/shot bonus when using Bolt weaponry? One extra shot, maybe? (So 2 at ≤24", 3 at ≤ 12") This would provide a neat little bump to the bolter lads in tac/dev squads, and the pistol lads in Assault squads. Brap brap.

Yeah and a marine's accuracy improves from 66% to 90% when he stands next to his Captain. When he stands next to an LT his gun suddenly goes from wounding guardsmen 66% of the time to 90% of the time. So?

You can't measure a unit's value purely based on its ability to shoot things. Marines have so many other increases over a normal guardsmen.
+1 WS, +1 BS, +1 S, +1 T, +1 LD, +2 armor SV, ATSKNF, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Krak Grenades. . . .I mean that's some good stuff right there. Would it be fair just to give it away?

Its true that 40k doesn't reward jack of all trades particularly well in its current edition, but unfortunately that's what marines are. As far as I can tell, the complaint isn't just that marines cost too much, its that without additional heavy and special weapons no one wants them. GW tried to make better tacticals with Intercessors, which are just as hated by the people who hate tacticals. I don't think giving them more bolter shots is going to help, those people hate bolters and think they're pointless.

It doesn't help when GW creates a unit like Scions that can take 4 special weapons in a ten man squad, grav chute, and are troops.

The game has been based around shooting primarily for a few editions now, i think you can measure a unit's value purely based on it's ability to shoot things. What's of note is that weapon skill means less now - aside from to hit, it also used to make you harder to hit if you had a higher ws. Now, everything hits on it's flat rate. Conscripts hit marines just as easily as they hit grotz and greater demons. Also, 40k hasn't rewarded jack of all trades units pretty much ever, let alone this edition. GW didn't try to make tacticals better by introducing a completely new and separate unit - what they did was wash their hands and try again while selling you new models. Just like gw didn't fix terminators when they introduced centurions. People hate tacticals and intercessors for the same reason - they're overpriced garbage.

 Torga_DW wrote:

 argonak wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

I always thought it kind of goofy that an Imperial Guard can fire his lasgun twice as fast as a marine with a bolter, just cos someone's shouting at them. Maybe give Marines some kind of boost/shot bonus when using Bolt weaponry? One extra shot, maybe? (So 2 at ≤24", 3 at ≤ 12") This would provide a neat little bump to the bolter lads in tac/dev squads, and the pistol lads in Assault squads. Brap brap.

Yeah and a marine's accuracy improves from 66% to 90% when he stands next to his Captain. When he stands next to an LT his gun suddenly goes from wounding guardsmen 66% of the time to 90% of the time. So?

You can't measure a unit's value purely based on its ability to shoot things. Marines have so many other increases over a normal guardsmen.
+1 WS, +1 BS, +1 S, +1 T, +1 LD, +2 armor SV, ATSKNF, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Krak Grenades. . . .I mean that's some good stuff right there. Would it be fair just to give it away?

Its true that 40k doesn't reward jack of all trades particularly well in its current edition, but unfortunately that's what marines are. As far as I can tell, the complaint isn't just that marines cost too much, its that without additional heavy and special weapons no one wants them. GW tried to make better tacticals with Intercessors, which are just as hated by the people who hate tacticals. I don't think giving them more bolter shots is going to help, those people hate bolters and think they're pointless.

It doesn't help when GW creates a unit like Scions that can take 4 special weapons in a ten man squad, grav chute, and are troops.

The game has been based around shooting primarily for a few editions now, i think you can measure a unit's value purely based on it's ability to shoot things. What's of note is that weapon skill means less now - aside from to hit, it also used to make you harder to hit if you had a higher ws. Now, everything hits on it's flat rate. Conscripts hit marines just as easily as they hit grotz and greater demons. Also, 40k hasn't rewarded jack of all trades units pretty much ever, let alone this edition. GW didn't try to make tacticals better by introducing a completely new and separate unit - what they did was wash their hands and try again while selling you new models. Just like gw didn't fix terminators when they introduced centurions. People hate tacticals and intercessors for the same reason - they're overpriced garbage.

So how much do you think a tactical and an intercessor should cost?

It's a simple enough question, but i can't give you a simple answer. Bobby G is a thing, asscan razors are a thing. Marines are supposed to be an elite army, dropping the points of their basic infantry goes against that, even if it's currently justified. I would rather see their infantry get enough of a buff to be 'worth' their points. I made a post about it here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/741301.page

But to try and answer your question relative to the OP. If a 10-man marine squad costs 100 points, people might be able to swallow that *and* you would see combat squadding happen, almost guaranteed. It's not my preferred fix, however. Also note that i'm not necessarily suggesting 10 point marines as base - unless 10-man squad minimums came back, i would look at putting the points decreases into the "up to 5 additional marines" to encourage taking them over starting a new squad.

Maybe keep the marines the same and make the upgrades much cheaper for tac squads, since they can't spam by definition. The marine has always been in the difficult situation of having stats they can't use effectively in conjunction with their other stats. This game rewards specialization. It's always better to have a 6 pt assault dude and a 7 pt shooter dude than a 13 pt dude that does both at an average rate. That's the tactical marine.

 Torga_DW wrote:
It's a simple enough question, but i can't give you a simple answer. Bobby G is a thing, asscan razors are a thing. Marines are supposed to be an elite army, dropping the points of their basic infantry goes against that, even if it's currently justified. I would rather see their infantry get enough of a buff to be 'worth' their points. I made a post about it here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/741301.page

But to try and answer your question relative to the OP. If a 10-man marine squad costs 100 points, people might be able to swallow that *and* you would see combat squadding happen, almost guaranteed. It's not my preferred fix, however. Also note that i'm not necessarily suggesting 10 point marines as base - unless 10-man squad minimums came back, i would look at putting the points decreases into the "up to 5 additional marines" to encourage taking them over starting a new squad.

Definitely buff the marines rather than drop the points. If you drop points units slightly below points just starts to feel too expensive driving points down on bottom scale as well causing cascade and at the bottom end of scale there's very little room to manouver as it is...

Sells less models though.

Does combat squadding increase the drop from 1 to 2 since you need to declare it before it is deployed?

If it does, combat squad is beyond saving within the current ruleset.

 skchsan wrote:
Does combat squadding increase the drop from 1 to 2?

If it does, combat squad is beyond saving within the current ruleset.

Yes, I think it does.

yeah it increases your drop

Dumpster fire achievement unlocked, then.

It's just another worthless rule that is given to marines that has 0 value. Funny. A roman legion is essentially what a chapter is designed around. 1000 men. Each capable of breaking down to the squad level and acting independently. This is what combat squad is supposed to emulate.

The way combat squads should work is the unit should be able to split in half at any point of the game. Or join up with other units too. Instead we have to pay command points for that...I would never pay a command point to split a squad in half which has the ability to do it at the start of the game....what stupidity these rules writers have.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's just another worthless rule that is given to marines that has 0 value. Funny. A roman legion is essentially what a chapter is designed around. 1000 men. Each capable of breaking down to the squad level and acting independently. This is what combat squad is supposed to emulate.

The way combat squads should work is the unit should be able to split in half at any point of the game. Or join up with other units too. Instead we have to pay command points for that...I would never pay a command point to split a squad in half which has the ability to do it at the start of the game....what stupidity these rules writers have.

Well it was a novel idea when dedicated transports could not be shared by different units. With the transport rule revised, yeah, it is absolutely worthless.

I'm praying for something in Chapter Approved to make this relevant or even just removed lol
Or ya know, give me a reason to take a 10 man squad

I thought something up the other day. Since I did not have the time to play 8th yet (I know, I know, shame on me) I am not 100% sure if that would break something, but I think not really.

Well my idea is not to (solely) reduce points or give them more special weapons but to make their stock weapons a bit better. But changing the Boltgun would also benefit quite a few other armies and would just be a lot of work.
So the thing that came to my mind was a special rule I thought of after reading a old IG codex that maybe could look a bit like this:

Boltgun Drill/Barrage or something like that
As long as the Sergeant is still alive, all Marines armed with Boltguns in the squad can take one more shot than they could normally.

I think that this would the Tacs greatly. Granted, also a small squad would gain this bonus, but on the other hand, a full 10 man squad could wreak some serious havoc on most stuff. Now add in special/heavy weapons or a combi weapon on the sergeant and you could really be meaningful on the battlefield.

I am aware that this pretty much simulates the auto bolt rifle if my memory serves me right. It is still just an idea. But still, Tacs need something.
Edit: Oh, and also just remove the combat squads. Now that everyone can split their fire and heavy weapons can still fire relatively accurately after moving. I do not really see the point in 8th for that rule.

Well, it seems like we all agree combat squadding is archaic notion.

As for making 10-m squad more viable, perhaps changing the special weapon per model count limits from 'every 5 models' to 'every 3 space marines (excluding sergeant)'.

Our typical composition for tac squads (if taken at all) is usually:
1. 1x 6-man squad [sarge + heavy/special weapon + 4 ablative wound] w/ razorback.
2. 2x 5-man squad [sarge + heavy/special weapon + 3 ablative wounds] w/ rhino.
or the ever popular
3. 1x 10-man squad [sarge + heavy weapon + special weapon + 7 ablative wounds] w/ rhino.

The above proposal opens up alternative composition as well as battle field roles (not slots):

1. 1x 6-man squad [sarge + heavy/special weapon + 4 ablative wound] w/ razorback - same as before
2. 2x 5-man squad [sarge + heavy/special weapon + 3 ablative wounds] w/ rhino - same as before
3. 1x 7-man squad [sarge + heavy weapon + special weapon + 4 ablative wounds] w/ rhino - this is where it begins to offer changes to the existing ruleset. In this particular case, two added space marines will act as a tax for being able to take two weapons from the ranged weapons. This loadout will stand as a pseudo-command squad, with less special weapons available and lacking the bodyguard rule.
4. 1x 10-man squad [sarge + special weapon + special weapon + heavy weapon + 6 ablative wounds] w/ rhino - again, now has 5 marines as tax for taking 3 special weapons. This loadout is still packs less punch than a command squad fully kitted out in a droppod (as to maintain the hierarchy of elites to troops), and still not quite a dev squad, but now sits somewhere between chosens/command squad and devs w/ significant increase in threat to enemy.

So while its not game breaking, it give you a reason to break out of the 5-man tac squad mold. Furthermore, many armies utilize this "every 3" rule so why not for tactical squads?

To sum up, change the 'Wargear Options' to read as follows:
-The Space Marine Sergeant may replace his bolt pistol and bolt gun with items from the Sergeant Equipment list.
-For every 3 Space Marines in the unit, one Space Marine may replace his boltgun with an item from the Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons list. Item from Heavy Weapons list can be taken only once per unit.

One for every three dudes? Huh. That's some thinking outside the box there. I just kept focusing on numbers divisible by 5. I like the cut of your jib.

 skchsan wrote:
To sum up, change the 'Wargear Options' to read as follows:
-The Space Marine Sergeant may replace his bolt pistol and bolt gun with items from the Sergeant Equipment list.
-For every 3 Space Marines in the unit, one Space Marine may replace his boltgun with an item from the Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons list. Item from Heavy Weapons list can be taken only once per unit.

My thoughts? I'd rather see a 'fix' where the 'basic' tactical marine is worth taking on their own merits, not as an expensive ablative wound for the special slots. And more, people still won't take 10 man squads because of the morale system. People using the combi/special loadout might move to 6 man squads though, but that's still 4 guys short of what we're aiming for.

 Torga_DW wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
To sum up, change the 'Wargear Options' to read as follows:
-The Space Marine Sergeant may replace his bolt pistol and bolt gun with items from the Sergeant Equipment list.
-For every 3 Space Marines in the unit, one Space Marine may replace his boltgun with an item from the Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons list. Item from Heavy Weapons list can be taken only once per unit.

My thoughts? I'd rather see a 'fix' where the 'basic' tactical marine is worth taking on their own merits, not as an expensive ablative wound for the special slots. And more, people still won't take 10 man squads because of the morale system. People using the combi/special loadout might move to 6 man squads though, but that's still 4 guys short of what we're aiming for.

The only way to do that is make a Bolter worth taking in the first place. I laid out my thoughts on that in a different thread here.

I was thinking more about combat squading. I think I have a use for it.

Consider 1x10 Tac squad. Stick that in a rhino, and no one cares too much. You have the following in each rhino you do it to:
Combi/melee weapon
Special weapon
heavy weapon
It's probably 170-200 points per squad (not counting the rhino), depending on options.

However with combat squading:

2x10 Tac squads turn into 4x5. That's not particularly impressive, until you stick parts of them back in a rhino. When you do you have:
2 combi-melee weapons
2 special weapons

and, in addition, you have two heavy weapons hanging back, each with 4 ablative wounds. That's not a terrible setup.

Now, you could just argue that you can do that with a bunch of 5 man squads, but this gives you much more flexibility in situations when you have limited detachment sizes or limited numbers of detachments to work with.

MSU still also forces opponents to pre-commit to splitting firepower between squads or risk overkilling a squad. We had a long talk about 2x5 vs 1x10 scions in the IG tactics thread, and the conclusion that most came to was that 2x5 was overall the best way to go, as you suffer less from morale, you get more sergeants where you want them, and the above pre-commit to avoid overkill.

 daedalus wrote:
I was thinking more about combat squading. I think I have a use for it.

Consider 1x10 Tac squad. Stick that in a rhino, and no one cares too much. You have the following in each rhino you do it to:
Combi/melee weapon
Special weapon
heavy weapon
It's probably 170-200 points per squad (not counting the rhino), depending on options.

However with combat squading:

2x10 Tac squads turn into 4x5. That's not particularly impressive, until you stick parts of them back in a rhino. When you do you have:
2 combi-melee weapons
2 special weapons

and, in addition, you have two heavy weapons hanging back, each with 4 ablative wounds. That's not a terrible setup.

Now, you could just argue that you can do that with a bunch of 5 man squads, but this gives you much more flexibility in situations when you have limited detachment sizes or limited numbers of detachments to work with.

MSU still also forces opponents to pre-commit to splitting firepower between squads or risk overkilling a squad. We had a long talk about 2x5 vs 1x10 scions in the IG tactics thread, and the conclusion that most came to was that 2x5 was overall the best way to go, as you suffer less from morale, you get more sergeants where you want them, and the above pre-commit to avoid overkill.

It's better to just take 4 tacticals in 2 rhinos. 4 troops for 2 drops. With 2 plasma and 2 combi plasma. Mainly because the only reason you ever take tacticals is to get command points.

 Xenomancers wrote:

It's better to just take 4 tacticals in 2 rhinos. 4 troops for 2 drops. With 2 plasma and 2 combi plasma. Mainly because the only reason you ever take tacticals is to get command points.

This is only true because how lackluster tac squads are currently. The discussion is about how to actually make a competitive list focusing around troops in a SM list.

Taking a 10 man squad is utterly useless point sink currently.

The thread is about how to make 10-man squads/combat squads viable, and i don't see how you can do that without making the basic mooks more than just a highly-priced ablative wound counter for the specials.

I dont think improving individual marines is necessarily in order. I like to think of tac squad as like a hangnail - it doesnt cause you life threatening issues, but they are annoying until you cut them off.

I'll assume we've reached a consensus that there are absolutely 0 pro's of 10 man squad and combat squading. Wih this in mind, the list of cons of 1x 10man vs 2x 5 man are as follows:

-less special/heavy weapons
-susceptible higher potential loss due to failed morale test
-combat squading increases drops

With above in mind, the following is proposed:

change the 'abilities - combat squad' to read as follows:

Combat Squad
When a unit with this ability is deployed at the start of the game, a Tactical Squad containing 10 models may be split up into three units, into two groups of 3 and one group of 4 containing Space Marine Sergeant. The units set up in his manner must maintain coherency of 12" from each other unit.

This will address the above points wihout drastically changing the game.

-each squad is effectively immune to the effects of morale
-the number of drops is not affected
-smaller unit size = better use of LoS - while it doesnt increase its dps it increases staying power.

You will be able to create bare minimum, understrengthed units. The coherency rule may be replaced with a rule that allows overwatching for fellow units within 12" kind of like what tau has. The three units, while separated, still synergizes with each other.

I feel like this way, tactical squads may actually feel "tactical"

I have a suggestion. You may not like it, but here goes nothing.

Combat doctrines. Real Combat Doctrines. In the movement phase, when you select a tactical squad to move, roll 2D6. If the score is equal to or smaller than the number of models in the unit, they can immediately perform one of the following Combat Doctrines:

Tactical Doctrine: The unit immediately moves as if it was the Movement phase.

Devastator Doctrine: The unit immediately shoots as if in the shooting phase.

Assault Doctrine: The unit immediately fights as if in the fighting phase.

This is just a rough outline, and it's potentially game breaking at the moment. But maybe with a bit of work it could be viable? And as you can see, having a larger unit makes it more likely to work. 5 man combat squad, not likely. 10 man tactical squad, almost a sure thing. Thoughts?