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Is there a way to make Ten-man Tactical squads useful/Combat squadding relevant?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in au
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine




Oz

That's a really interesting idea, my first impression is i like it. Need to think on it more, but reminds me of the old sisters acts of faith. The magic number for it to be reliably used would be 7 men, but in that case i'd probably pony up the extra 3 as ablative wounds to keep the squad performing. Would have to decide if devastator doctrine would apply to all weapons or just boltguns.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 Future War Cultist wrote:
I have a suggestion. You may not like it, but here goes nothing.

Combat doctrines. Real Combat Doctrines. In the movement phase, when you select a tactical squad to move, roll 2D6. If the score is equal to or smaller than the number of models in the unit, they can immediately perform one of the following Combat Doctrines:

Tactical Doctrine: The unit immediately moves as if it was the Movement phase.

Devastator Doctrine: The unit immediately shoots as if in the shooting phase.

Assault Doctrine: The unit immediately fights as if in the fighting phase.

This is just a rough outline, and it's potentially game breaking at the moment. But maybe with a bit of work it could be viable? And as you can see, having a larger unit makes it more likely to work. 5 man combat squad, not likely. 10 man tactical squad, almost a sure thing. Thoughts?


I can get my Heavy Weapon to shoot twice in a Devastator squad for just 5 points. And that'll be at BS2+ before the squad inevitably dies.
Plus I don't understand why Tactical Marines benefit compared to actual Veterans, Sternguard, Vanguard, and heck Terminators.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in au
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine




Oz

A fix like this for tactical marines could be a fix for other marine infantry units as well.

 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot






 Torga_DW wrote:
A fix like this for tactical marines could be a fix for other marine infantry units as well.


Exactly. Thanks for hearing me out!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/04 04:04:17


 
   
Made in ca
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator






 skchsan wrote:

-each squad is effectively immune to the effects of morale
-the number of drops is not affected
-smaller unit size = better use of LoS - while it doesnt increase its dps it increases staying power.

You will be able to create bare minimum, understrengthed units. The coherency rule may be replaced with a rule that allows overwatching for fellow units within 12" kind of like what tau has. The three units, while separated, still synergizes with each other.

I feel like this way, tactical squads may actually feel "tactical"


This is great! This plus I was thinking Stratagems and rerolls affect both halves of the unit as long as the sergeant is alive
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot





It would also be nice if they limited split fire onto two units max. Currently, the option to split fire onto as many units are causing delays in games where penny pinching opponents try to resolve one bolter at a time to minimize wound wasteage. But yeah, thats how the game is designed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/05 20:13:52


 
   
Made in au
Ground Crew



Brisbane

I'd say improve the Boltguns to AP-1 or keep AP- but on a wound roll of 6, change the AP to -2...

Much like Stormtroopers (who I find are ludicrously overpowered with S3 AP-2) that receive orders; surely a Space Marine Tactical Squad with 6 or more members could have a mini-orders tree, like:

Stand and Deliver: Boltgun becomes Rapid Fire 2 if the unit has not moved in the preceding movement phase and has 6 or more models...

For the Honor of the Chapter: Increase Ld to 10 if more than 6 models are still in the squad when resolving Morale tests...

In His Name: Change Boltguns to Assault 1 if the Squad has just advanced and has 6 or more models...
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator






 skchsan wrote:
It would also be nice if they limited split fire onto two units max. Currently, the option to split fire onto as many units are causing delays in games where penny pinching opponents try to resolve one bolter at a time to minimize wound wasteage. But yeah, thats how the game is designed.


Isn't split fire designed so that you have to declare all shots before shooting Any?
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Gig Harbor, WA

 fraser1191 wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
It would also be nice if they limited split fire onto two units max. Currently, the option to split fire onto as many units are causing delays in games where penny pinching opponents try to resolve one bolter at a time to minimize wound wasteage. But yeah, thats how the game is designed.


Isn't split fire designed so that you have to declare all shots before shooting Any?


Yes it is, it would appear his opponents are playing that wrong. You have to declare all targets before you fire with an individual unit, and you can't change them based on casualties.
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot





 argonak wrote:
Yes it is, it would appear his opponents are playing that wrong. You have to declare all targets before you fire with an individual unit, and you can't change them based on casualties.



Then all the merrier! Combat squads should be a rule that allows you to make units smaller than the minimum size, i.e. allow tac marines to combat squad smaller than 5 units, bikers smaller than 3 units, etc. as to create more decision making to be done by the opponent trying to minimize overkills.

Currently, combat squad is redundant that you can opt to increase a 5 man squad into 10 man, then revert that 10 man squad back into two 5 man squads.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/22 18:17:33


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Gig Harbor, WA

 skchsan wrote:
 argonak wrote:
Yes it is, it would appear his opponents are playing that wrong. You have to declare all targets before you fire with an individual unit, and you can't change them based on casualties.



Then all the merrier! Combat squads should be a rule that allows you to make units smaller than the minimum size, i.e. allow tac marines to combat squad smaller than 5 units, bikers smaller than 3 units, etc. as to create more decision making to be done by the opponent trying to minimize overkills.

Currently, combat squad is redundant that you can opt to increase a 5 man squad into 10 man, then revert that 10 man squad back into two 5 man squads.


Combat squad is just a leftover relic of a rule that only made sense several editions ago. It should be deleted. Marines don't appear to be pointed in a way that it costs them anything. And not using it instead gets you an extra Sarge. I just don't see the point. Tacticals issue is unrelated to that rule, and is more a problem of being just average at multiple things in a game that rewards specialists.
   
Made in gb
Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine






The benefit of combat squads is still the ability to pack more small units into a single formation slot; the problem with it is that most people don't max out Troops, it's the specialists you want more of in just about every situation, if tactical marines were a choice that you actually wanted to take more of then it'd be different, or even Troops in general.

It's really a major problem with the meta; there's just not much reason to bulk up an army with (usually) cheaper Troops, as numbers alone don't matter for most armies, the weapons you equip are. It was a problem in 7th edition fantasy until 8th edition made big blocks of infantry powerful again, but I'm not at all sure what could do the same in 40k.

So either the meta of the game needs to change to emphasise Troops, or reward flexibility versus specialisation, or they need to make the tactical squad better with some kind of rule.

There's a whole thread on possible changes to bolter weapons, which could certainly have an impact on a massed bolters unit like 10-man tactical marine squads; in that I suggested bolter weapons inflicting two hits on 6's to hit, which would make a 10-man tactical squad a bit better at anti-horde work with a flamer + heavy bolter.

One alternative is to double down on the objective grabbing idea; for codex armies at least it's the devastators that are less experienced than tactical marines, so it seems weird that tactical marines are basically the same but worse. They should really have something to account for them not being quite as raw, for example, maybe they automatically pass Morale checks within range of an objective marker?

An even more radical alternative would be to redesign the stats of marines, such that scouts and devastators only have one attack each, but all other units have two, with veterans receiving some other bonus to compensate (e.g- better BS and WS instead). This could also allow front-line marines to go back to a more elite price point rather than creeping ever downwards in cost.

What's plain is that right now equipment is all that really distinguishes marine squads, and tactical marines have the worst selection, but I don't think loading them up with more options would really help, as if anything it'd make the distinction between units worse than ever.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/25 15:31:48


   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

Do you think bringing back limits would be an option? Like, Devastator Squads being a 0-1 choice, or something?

M.

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
pismakron wrote:

Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels.
 necrontyrOG wrote:
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby.

 
   
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 Infantryman wrote:
Do you think bringing back limits would be an option? Like, Devastator Squads being a 0-1 choice, or something?

M.

That doesn't make Tactical Marines better.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot






I still think the best way to do this is to give them a bonus for having more than 5 models in the unit. Off the top of my head, +1 to their to hit, advance and charge rolls if the squad is 6-10 models? Too much or too little?
   
Made in au
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine




Oz

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I still think the best way to do this is to give them a bonus for having more than 5 models in the unit. Off the top of my head, +1 to their to hit, advance and charge rolls if the squad is 6-10 models? Too much or too little?


I agree, with morale being what it is, and the front-loading of squads, having a 'full' squad needs to be incentivized. I liked your previous idea, because it related to 'numbers' within the squad. Too few, and it wouldn't work, but going full size would give you a decent buffer against casualties while still providing the bonus. +1 to advance and charge rolls isn't so bad, but +1 to to hit rolls is pretty powerful for a 'shooty' unit just because it has '6' models in it. We're aiming to encourage the full 10 men, my solution would involve that in some way. The problem here is that once you encourage 10 men, you still want combat squadding (5 men splits) to be viable too.

 
   
Made in us
Powerful Irongut




I mean just say "a squad that starts the game with ten models." I would call it "covering fire" and just keep the advance and charge bonuses.

But marines have chapter tactics, atsknf, combat squads, and some people would like special rules in their bolters. This is not something to add to, and I would really rather get rid of chapter tactics, and only replace it with something other than something so specific.

haravikk is right. Either the meta needs to change or they need a special rule, and they don't need a special rule.

The tools are all there, marines have superior stats but ld7 t4 etc do not mean anything. This is preposterous. A marine with a bolter isn't worth its points in guardsmen or night scythes, and neither is a tactical squad, yet their to hit, s, t, ld, and save are all better. The meta and game rules are the problems.

Compare a 7th ed veteran guardsman and a 7th ed marine. Their bs is the same and the marine's i, Ld, and sv are all better, with more access to a2 veterans, yet none of these things make the marine's shooting attack more powerful. These specific stats should let marines blitz the guard veterans to death before they can get a shot off. Speed, training, protection, determination, all of these things should directly boost the shooting attack, not just help them survive and not pass through special rules, they are already there in the profile statline.

A tactical squad prefers to attack infantry. That's what it's weapons can hurt. Buff infantry generally, and you get an exponential bonus. Tactical squads benefit directly because they are infantry, and they also get more useful because their preferred targets get more common and more valuable.

So I'd buff the heck out of infantry and make part of the buffs depend on good Ld, good sv, and good a.


Prime259 wrote:
Thanks For The Help.
Thanks For The Help.
All the Best, George Bush:
My Life in Letters and Other Writings
Yoyoyo wrote:
I have a really great idea, why don't you use google to figure it out for yourself.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Except Combat Squads is a non-rule, especially since you can take multiple units on the same transport. If that's part of the reasoning behind their cost, it needs to be removed.

Also Bolters have been garbage for a stupidly long time. There's no defense you can give because "power creep is the issue" doesn't work on a weapon that's not good to begin with.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot






 Torga_DW wrote:
I agree, with morale being what it is, and the front-loading of squads, having a 'full' squad needs to be incentivized. I liked your previous idea, because it related to 'numbers' within the squad. Too few, and it wouldn't work, but going full size would give you a decent buffer against casualties while still providing the bonus. +1 to advance and charge rolls isn't so bad, but +1 to to hit rolls is pretty powerful for a 'shooty' unit just because it has '6' models in it. We're aiming to encourage the full 10 men, my solution would involve that in some way. The problem here is that once you encourage 10 men, you still want combat squadding (5 men splits) to be viable too.


Very good points. What about a hybrid of the two ideas? In the movement phase, roll 2D6 and if the result is equal to or less than the size of the squad, they add +1 to their advance, charge (and to hit rolls?).
I know I said try letting them shoot/charge/double move in the movement phase but it's probably too time consuming. Or maybe not?
   
Made in us
Powerful Irongut




I don't understand why you would test instead of saying "if the unit starts the game with ten models."

Also why would you give the squad bs2+ and ws2+ just for paying for a single extra marine?

Prime259 wrote:
Thanks For The Help.
Thanks For The Help.
All the Best, George Bush:
My Life in Letters and Other Writings
Yoyoyo wrote:
I have a really great idea, why don't you use google to figure it out for yourself.
 
   
Made in nz
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries



New Zealand

How about a bonus Command Point per full squad.
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator






What about if you have a 10 man squad split up, if one squad shoots at a unit, the other half gets a +1 to hit or rerolls against the same unit
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





It'd never happen, but I think the ideal way would either be:
-Tac Space Marine: 13ppm, min: 5 guys
-May add up to 5 additional Tac Marines at 12ppm

Or:
-If the squad selects a Special weapon, any selected Heavy weapon costs 10 points less (minimum 0)

Neither are going to happen. Runs counter to how the game is developing. But I think they'd be interesting rules.
   
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In My Lab

Bharring wrote:
It'd never happen, but I think the ideal way would either be:
-Tac Space Marine: 13ppm, min: 5 guys
-May add up to 5 additional Tac Marines at 12ppm

Or:
-If the squad selects a Special weapon, any selected Heavy weapon costs 10 points less (minimum 0)

Neither are going to happen. Runs counter to how the game is developing. But I think they'd be interesting rules.


It's how it's done in Horus Heresy. But, of course, with the new (stupid) points system, that'd be a beach to do. It'd've been easy in the old points system.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





You could just bump the cost of a tac Sarge 5 points, which would do basically the same thing. But that would certainly raise hell.

(Assuming the PPM of Tac Marines drops to 12ppm to bump Sarge by 5pts - not looking to nerf Tacs.)
   
Made in us
Powerful Irongut




Bharring wrote:
You could just bump the cost of a tac Sarge 5 points, which would do basically the same thing. But that would certainly raise hell.

(Assuming the PPM of Tac Marines drops to 12ppm to bump Sarge by 5pts - not looking to nerf Tacs.)


It's nice, I really like front loaded point costs. Except, the alternative is using MSU for an extra five points per unit, which makes the price of extra CP five points per unit. If you charge twenty points for an extra CP it's probably still worth it.

Prime259 wrote:
Thanks For The Help.
Thanks For The Help.
All the Best, George Bush:
My Life in Letters and Other Writings
Yoyoyo wrote:
I have a really great idea, why don't you use google to figure it out for yourself.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





If it were pointed perfectly, sometimes you'd want 10mans, sometimes you'd take 5mans.

The ideal balance should make both have a point, for different reasons.
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






I still think all the rules needs is a little change. Allow it to be used AFTER deployment. Then it's not that bad and actually worth something.

What is your life?
My honour is my life.
What is your fate?
My duty is my fate.
What is your fear?
My fear is to fail.
What is your reward?
My salvation is my reward.
What is your craft?
My craft is death.
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Irongut




Bharring wrote:
If it were pointed perfectly, sometimes you'd want 10mans, sometimes you'd take 5mans.

The ideal balance should make both have a point, for different reasons.


Idk sounds liberal to me.

The masses are exhorted to use ten-marine squads and uphold Marneus Calgar Thought.

A materialist analysis demands that squads that have fewer than ten marines have some way of attributing these to previously incurred casualties, instead of list design or optimization.

There should also be a chance that a random member of each squad has bs2+ and precision shot, and a lower chance that a random member have a trophy power knife, and a chance that the squad has a veteran a2 ld8 combat squad leader in addition to its sergeant. The fact that it doesn't is a revision of the correct line of Ansellist-Gullimanism.


Which obviously is hyperbole. Everything having an fanciful, perfectly balanced set of illusory choices is just as preposterous. The preferred use is ten marines, and if there are niches uses for five or six marines despite the rules ideally favoring ten, then they will fill those niches.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/27 18:30:56


Prime259 wrote:
Thanks For The Help.
Thanks For The Help.
All the Best, George Bush:
My Life in Letters and Other Writings
Yoyoyo wrote:
I have a really great idea, why don't you use google to figure it out for yourself.
 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






Combat squads allows for alternative loadout options when the battle begins. One big squad for maximum casualty padding, two reasonably armed independent teams, or one high-density armed team and one bolter-man team.

Two independently bought five-man Tactical teams can't pack heavy/specials into a transport the way two sub-10 combat squads can. Full load is 2 combi, 2 special, and 2 heavy for Tacticals.

Then you have bolter squads left over for screens, objectives, or being obnoxious by assaulting stuff.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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