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Is there a way to make Ten-man Tactical squads useful/Combat squadding relevant?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





But then the first casualty is a huge blow to each squad. Which makes for very gamey play - the opponent just needs to ensure 1 casualty on each squad, then move on.

Also, the rules clutter the game mid-battle - wouldn't it be ideal to keep the unit rules as-is in-game, but modify the list building rules? So you only care about it when you're making the decision?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




That's depending on how you want to modify list building. The way it's done is fine overall with some exceptions (Guard getting 9 command points for a force they were building anyway, the HQ FOC not being too restrictive), though most tournaments having a max of 3 detachments makes this easier.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

Maybe there shouldn't be 10-man units at all.

Maybe a single troop choice can be a 5 man squad, and optionally an additional 5 man squad.

M.

Codex: Soyuzki - A fluffy guidebook to my Astra Militarum subfaction. Now version 0.6!
Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels. -pismakron
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby. -necrontyrOG

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper





Leicester

Okay; my thoughts are thus?

no one ever combat squads anymore. why the hell would you? the 5 man team with the heavy weapon costs the exact same as a devastator squad with a single heavy weapon, and fires at BS 2+ instead of 3+

Maybe if units from tactical squads could fire overwatch for each other pseudo-tau style they'd become an appealing choice for guarding devastators or command structures?? just a thought?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

 GamerGuy wrote:
Okay; my thoughts are thus?

no one ever combat squads anymore. why the hell would you? the 5 man team with the heavy weapon costs the exact same as a devastator squad with a single heavy weapon, and fires at BS 2+ instead of 3+

Maybe if units from tactical squads could fire overwatch for each other pseudo-tau style they'd become an appealing choice for guarding devastators or command structures?? just a thought?


Presumably they cost the same because, once again, the devastators are specialists and the tacticals are generalists.

The Devastators hit with shooting on a 2+ with the heavy weapon. They're shooting specialists, so it's good that they're better at it than tactical marines.

On the other hand, Tactical Marines get Objective Secured and offer an avenue to get additional CP. They trade in the mono-focused benefit of the specialist to open up different options (as befits a generalist).

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in au
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine




Oz

I had an idea, approaching it from another direction. What if a 10-man squad (tactical/assault/devastator) got an additional 'free' veteran sergeant (2nd squad leader)? Who *had* to lead the second squad if combat squadding was utilized in that game. Then there would be no difference between 2x 5 man squads and 1x10 man squad, except the 10-man squad could decide where the special/heavy weapons were allocated when combat squadding (eg 2x weapons in 1 squad, nothing but bolters/vet sergeant in the other).

 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

I thought being a Devistator was one of the things you had to pass through to become a Tactical? Why the heck would they have better BS?

M.

Codex: Soyuzki - A fluffy guidebook to my Astra Militarum subfaction. Now version 0.6!
Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels. -pismakron
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby. -necrontyrOG

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

 Infantryman wrote:
I thought being a Devistator was one of the things you had to pass through to become a Tactical? Why the heck would they have better BS?

M.


They get a Signum, which is a piece of wargear on the Sergeant that I think gives +1 to hit to one weapon in the squad. So if it was 4 Lascannons, 3 would hit on normal SM BS and one would get the Signum on a 2+.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/30 19:24:56


Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Infantryman wrote:
I thought being a Devistator was one of the things you had to pass through to become a Tactical? Why the heck would they have better BS?

M.


They get a Signum, which is a piece of wargear on the Sergeant that I think gives +1 to hit to one weapon in the squad. So if it was 4 Lascannons, 3 would hit on normal SM BS and one would get the Signum on a 2+.

Don't forget they can buy a Cherub as well, which is only 5 points.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Reserve Company devs are passed through to get to companies.

Battle Company devs are no different from Battle Company tacs.
   
Made in us
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine





Huntsville, Texas

What about if the rule for Combat Squads was changed to reflect the Tactical Marines being more experienced in tactics and warfare?

-Make it so Combat Squads deploy separately but count as one squad for Killpoints/First Blood.

-Combat Squads from the same Tactical Squad may fire Overwatch when the other Combat Squad is being charged with a +1 to hit modifier if they are within 12" of each other and have line of sight.

That reflects the experience of a Marine Tactical Squad using the Combat Squads to support each other while pushing forwards. Also rewards the player by taking 10 man squads since they give fewer Kill Points and make getting First Blood slightly more difficult if you choose to shoot at them.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 NH Gunsmith wrote:
What about if the rule for Combat Squads was changed to reflect the Tactical Marines being more experienced in tactics and warfare?

-Make it so Combat Squads deploy separately but count as one squad for Killpoints/First Blood.

-Combat Squads from the same Tactical Squad may fire Overwatch when the other Combat Squad is being charged with a +1 to hit modifier if they are within 12" of each other and have line of sight.

That reflects the experience of a Marine Tactical Squad using the Combat Squads to support each other while pushing forwards. Also rewards the player by taking 10 man squads since they give fewer Kill Points and make getting First Blood slightly more difficult if you choose to shoot at them.

That might just be a general direction to fix Combat Squad as a whole, so I support it for anything with the rule.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine





Huntsville, Texas

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 NH Gunsmith wrote:
What about if the rule for Combat Squads was changed to reflect the Tactical Marines being more experienced in tactics and warfare?

-Make it so Combat Squads deploy separately but count as one squad for Killpoints/First Blood.

-Combat Squads from the same Tactical Squad may fire Overwatch when the other Combat Squad is being charged with a +1 to hit modifier if they are within 12" of each other and have line of sight.

That reflects the experience of a Marine Tactical Squad using the Combat Squads to support each other while pushing forwards. Also rewards the player by taking 10 man squads since they give fewer Kill Points and make getting First Blood slightly more difficult if you choose to shoot at them.

That might just be a general direction to fix Combat Squad as a whole, so I support it for anything with the rule.


I was just thinking about my training as an infantryman in the army, when the squad was split into two fireteams we supported the movement of the other team by suppressing the enemy. It just made sense to me that a Space Marine, with their many years of training and experience in warfare, would use a similar tactic.

Yeah, it doesn't fix the Space Marine Tactical Squad as a whole (that is a whole separate discussion), but to me that would make using Combat Squads more relevant and useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But, if you were to combine it with the "Bolter Fix" proposed in another thread of Marines counting their rolls of a 6+ as two hits with Bolt Weaponry, it actually becomes a pretty stout rule.

Now the supporting Combat Squad counts rolls of a 5 or 6 as two hits on Overwatch when supporting their other half. I could seriously see myself using full 10 man Tactical Squads and splitting them at that point.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/09 06:33:55


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 NH Gunsmith wrote:
What about if the rule for Combat Squads was changed to reflect the Tactical Marines being more experienced in tactics and warfare?

-Make it so Combat Squads deploy separately but count as one squad for Killpoints/First Blood.

-Combat Squads from the same Tactical Squad may fire Overwatch when the other Combat Squad is being charged with a +1 to hit modifier if they are within 12" of each other and have line of sight.

That reflects the experience of a Marine Tactical Squad using the Combat Squads to support each other while pushing forwards. Also rewards the player by taking 10 man squads since they give fewer Kill Points and make getting First Blood slightly more difficult if you choose to shoot at them.

That might just be a general direction to fix Combat Squad as a whole, so I support it for anything with the rule.


I was just thinking about my training as an infantryman in the army, when the squad was split into two fireteams we supported the movement of the other team by suppressing the enemy. It just made sense to me that a Space Marine, with their many years of training and experience in warfare, would use a similar tactic.

Yeah, it doesn't fix the Space Marine Tactical Squad as a whole (that is a whole separate discussion), but to me that would make using Combat Squads more relevant and useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But, if you were to combine it with the "Bolter Fix" proposed in another thread of Marines counting their rolls of a 6+ as two hits with Bolt Weaponry, it actually becomes a pretty stout rule.

Now the supporting Combat Squad counts rolls of a 5 or 6 as two hits on Overwatch when supporting their other half. I could seriously see myself using full 10 man Tactical Squads and splitting them at that point.

I'm still not sure how I feel on making Bolt weapons Tesla-lite. I still wanted something unique but oh well.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




I currently just field my tactical squads like this...


Tac Squad 1 - Sergeant with Power Axe/Stormbolter, +3 Marines + Plasma
Tac Squad 1.5 Sergeant with boltgun and boltpistol, + 3 Marines + Lascannon.

Sure, it's mechanically two different squads, but it gets across the combat squadding fluff wise perfectly well in my eyes.
   
 
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