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2017/10/02 08:59:32
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
jouso wrote: Who are those paramilitaries you talk about Herzlos?
I think he is referring to how some police in Spain are affiliated with the civil authorities and others the military authorities.
The ones used to disperse this referendum were the ones affiliated with the military so could be called 'paramilitary' using the dictionary definition of the word.
2017/10/02 09:01:17
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
jouso wrote: Who are those paramilitaries you talk about Herzlos?
I'm trying to find the reference, I'd seen a new sites mention that the 'police' in this instance were for a military-like civilian volunteer force like the US national guard, rather than the local police forces. I think there may be some confusion about terms and referring to the Civil Guard. I'm not entirely sure how they fit together though.
That's where I wanted to get. I've seen several references to "paramilitary" refering to the Guardia Civil which leaving aside the negative connotations is just not a proper definition. The Guardia Civil is a Gendarmerie, like the Italian Carabinieri, or the Canadian mounties.
There are no such paramilitary forces in Spain, what you saw in the news were riot Police and Guardia Civil.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kroem wrote: The ones used to disperse this referendum were the ones affiliated with the military so could be called 'paramilitary' using the dictionary definition of the word.
Both Policía Nacional and Guardia Civil were involved.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/02 09:04:28
2017/10/02 09:23:11
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Those aren't the real Antifa... just a bunch of yahoos wanting chaos on the streets.
Define "Real".
Like ISIS or Gamergate, Antifa is an ideology and a movement, not a clearly defined organisation. In fact, many distinct and independent organisations march in the name of Antifa. Literally anybody can call themselves Antifa.
My point is that if people want to protect against "Fascism", Spain is where they should be.
2017/10/02 10:22:14
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
jouso wrote: Who are those paramilitaries you talk about Herzlos?
I'm trying to find the reference, I'd seen a new sites mention that the 'police' in this instance were for a military-like civilian volunteer force like the US national guard, rather than the local police forces. I think there may be some confusion about terms and referring to the Civil Guard. I'm not entirely sure how they fit together though.
That's the guardia civil, who ARE actually a military force tasked with policing.
Thanks for the clarification. So they ARE military, rather than being military-like (paramilitary)?
2017/10/02 10:23:23
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
jouso wrote: Who are those paramilitaries you talk about Herzlos?
I'm trying to find the reference, I'd seen a new sites mention that the 'police' in this instance were for a military-like civilian volunteer force like the US national guard, rather than the local police forces. I think there may be some confusion about terms and referring to the Civil Guard. I'm not entirely sure how they fit together though.
That's the guardia civil, who ARE actually a military force tasked with policing.
Thanks for the clarification. So they ARE military, rather than being military-like (paramilitary)?
Since they respond to the ministry of defence, yes.
2017/10/02 10:55:49
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Those aren't the real Antifa... just a bunch of yahoos wanting chaos on the streets.
Define "Real".
Like ISIS or Gamergate, Antifa is an ideology and a movement, not a clearly defined organisation. In fact, many distinct and independent organisations march in the name of Antifa. Literally anybody can call themselves Antifa.
My point is that if people want to protect against "Fascism", Spain is where they should be.
Anyone can claim to be. These groups are more a umbrella idea, or a name. They represent ideas.
There is no command chain, the groups are there own group. There is not a real highrachy, orgonisation or group plan.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/02 10:57:55
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Apparently, footage has emerged of the local police trying to defend the people from the Guarda Civil. And this comes after the local fire brigade tried to defend them as well. Really serious stuff.
Will the EU will start thinking about invoking article 7 on Spain? Or is that just reserved for the governments that stand against them?
2017/10/02 11:01:04
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Future War Cultist wrote: Apparently, footage has emerged of the local police trying to defend the people from the Guarda Civil. And this comes after the local fire brigade tried to defend them as well. Really serious stuff.
Will the EU will start thinking about invoking article 7 on Spain? Or is that just reserved for the governments that stand against them?
Hopefully the EU will start to do something. So far their silence has been the loudest of all...
Full Frontal Nerdity
2017/10/02 11:10:18
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
This is really taking the usual "Police vs Fire" rivalry to a new level, we gotta step up our game here in the US:
Fair play to the firefighters there though, and props to them. "You want to show up in protective gear and helmets to beat people up, well we got our own protective gear and helmets. Don't make us get the hoses..."
2017/10/02 11:17:37
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Today's shameful assault on democracy goes beyond Spain. Everytime something like this happens, we, and by we I mean Europe and the USA, lose another piece of the moral high ground.
How can we lecture Russia, or Saudi Arabia, or China, or Venezuela on what's right and what's not?
By same right we have done that before past oh..centuries? We(we as in US. Finland is just following around knowing we are dependant on them) got bigger guns.
Also, there is no clear-cut majority in favour of independence. On the last regional elections, there were two parties running on an independence ticket.
So standard "we have holy right to our land previous rulers didn't have when we usurped them" defence.
Bah. It was allowed to get independent then, it still is.
It's not that independence is illegal, it's that the Catalan parliament hasn't even followed its own constitution. It's "independence, and feth the people if they think otherwise!" rather than actually caring about if people want to be independent or not.
None of which excuses the police brutality, of course.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2017/10/02 13:19:09
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
not the only strong arm tactics they used. earlier in September tthey arrested multiple officials in the region, raided offices and probblyy did not help matters.
So what's there next move?
Deposelocal police? have the gurda civile take over the region and such?
Though a full blown occupation in effect would likely be a PR disator.
This was like sending Police from London to seize scottish papers, beat up UK citizens, beat up UK emergancy services and such.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/02 13:27:45
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Now is the time for Portugal to strike! All your flaminco dancers are belong to us!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2017/10/02 13:48:38
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
well it was Spanish national security forces who even where facing the regional police and fire service who where willing to stand between them and people.
so what do thy do?
its obvious Catalan local emergency services in some fraction, how many is unkown are loyal to there people and not Spain right now. they stood there getting beat up for them.
do they take over and impose control on the region, but that's not going to be popular? EU, well . they in a pickle, Spain is a major and old member. if you don't act though your seen tto condone there actions..
though if they leave, they already shown the image of madrid is black clad thugs, and now burned alot of good relations between them and Catalonia leaders. The abaility to negotiate a outcome is going to be quite abit harder.
what kind of deal do you now work out, one side says no, the others now wantts full autonomy.
before you might of managed a fudgedeal, now . not as easy,.
that image has thrown the indepence groups a big hand, look here, see these thugs beating up kids and old women. its quite the dividing imagery while you exploit your brave catalan services standing arm in arm between the people and the thugs. your now casting yourself as the defender.
so, Spains, EU, all one big pickle indeed.
And if EU considers this fine. well im glad we out the EU.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/02 13:50:15
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Bran Dawri wrote: It's flamenco, Frazz. Or flamingo. Unless you're talking about flamenco-dancing flamingoes. I think.
flamenco dancing flamingos!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2017/10/02 13:57:06
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Bran Dawri wrote: It's flamenco, Frazz. Or flamingo. Unless you're talking about flamenco-dancing flamingoes. I think.
flamenco dancing flamingos!
with Flaming Flamenco fedorras riding a larger Flamenco dancing Flamingo to a jolly beat.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/02 14:52:45
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
jhe90 wrote: that image has thrown the indepence groups a big hand, look here, see these thugs beating up kids and old women. its quite the dividing imagery while you exploit your brave catalan services standing arm in arm between the people and the thugs. your now casting yourself as the defender.
A real mess indeed. Before this the majority of the Catalans were quite happy with the autonomy they have and would most likely still say no to independence, so it would have been best to just ignore them. Sending in thugs to beat up people was just what was needed to make even the nay-sayers reconsider their position.
2017/10/02 14:57:55
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
As I said previously, the Referendum and actions of the Catalonian goverment where absurd, they should all be at this point, prosecuted.
But the response of the central goverment was even worse, and at the end of the day the ones that paid for that where the citizens that with more reason or no, they where trying to peacefully vote in a referendum that their own goverment did organiced.
And as Jouso said, this is gonna benefit bot the Catalonian and the Central spanish Goverment. Is a shame, really.
And by the way, in Spain we don't have a Constitution. Our constitution is a travesty. A constitution should be made by a Constituent assembly with representatives of all the territories of the nation, like we did in 1812 with the PEPA in Cádiz, during the Spanish independence war against the French.
Our constitution, the bastard child of the regime of the 78 was made in a office, by literally the same officers and politicians that were in power under Franco dictatorship.
Many times you'll ear about the "Spanish transition". That term is a faux. There was no transition, the power structures are the same now than in 1960, there where only changes in names, because the power remained in the same hands.
The idea of a Democratic Rupture from the Franco's Regime was discarded early on. Today Spain lives in Franquism 2.0.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/02 14:59:25
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/10/02 15:59:42
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
The idea of a Democratic Rupture from the Franco's Regime was discarded early on. Today Spain lives in Franquism 2.0.
I had always wondered about that. Thanks.
To put a clear example of that, the Father of one of our past presidents, José María Aznar, was a official from the Franco Regime during the Civil War, and a pro-Franco periodist.
Father of Aznar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Aznar_Acedo
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/02 16:05:49
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/10/02 16:05:37
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Yodhrin wrote: Yup. And not content with assaulting old ladies, they've moved on to 15 year old kids:
Don't believe everything you see on Twitter and similar webs about the evil Guardia Civil assaulting kids yesterday. That's a screenshot from a video taken in 2012.
Jenkins: You don't have jurisdiction here!
Smith Jamison: We aren't here, which means when we open up on you and shred your bodies with automatic fire then this will never have happened.
About the Clans: "Those brief outbursts of sense can't hold back the wave of sibko bred, over hormoned sociopaths that they crank out though."
2017/10/02 17:18:44
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Sounds like skullduggery on all sides regarding the referendum itself, but looks like the Guardia Civil was totally out of control on the streets. I would hope there are some consequences for that, both on Spain and from the greater EU. That cannot be tolerated.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2017/10/02 19:16:55
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Yeah. Our riot units can be tough, they have been nasty and cracked a few skulls but that was a whole new level...
That was downright brutality, for political means and alot different say the London riots etc where they where facing criminals.
Yes the action may have been illegal but I could have been easily defeated in the loop holes and tangled Web of the courts.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/03 00:29:00
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
not the only strong arm tactics they used. earlier in September tthey arrested multiple officials in the region, raided offices and probblyy did not help matters.
Yeah, which were outright justified in plenty of cases since they broke the laws of data security by a) getting censal data without permission and, most importantly, b) giving it to entities that SHOULDN'T have access to it even if they had permission (mostly to ease the access to the referendum). The 1-O, though, they have no leg where to stand.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/03 00:31:48
2017/10/03 06:41:01
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Yeah. Our riot units can be tough, they have been nasty and cracked a few skulls but that was a whole new level...
That was downright brutality, for political means and alot different say the London riots etc where they where facing criminals.
From a legal standpoint, those people weren't assembling peacefully. They were in the way of the police complying with a court order (removing ballots and boxes), something that had been on the news for weeks.
In cases where action hasn't been proportionate, it will be dealt with (probably ending up in the ECHR at some point).
2017/10/03 07:38:12
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
From a legal standpoint, those people weren't assembling peacefully. They were in the way of the police complying with a court order (removing ballots and boxes), something that had been on the news for weeks.
That is assembling peacefully. Getting in the way is not threatening and does not need to be dealt with by flinging teenagers down flights of stairs and pulling people around by their hair.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/03 07:38:33
2017/10/03 07:46:22
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
They know where the ballot boxes are, so it’s easy to park officers out there and let people vote and then simply intercept the boxes as they are leaving to be counted. That’s how you deal with peaceful resistance like that.
