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2017/10/03 08:01:08
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
d-usa wrote: They know where the ballot boxes are, so it’s easy to park officers out there and let people vote and then simply intercept the boxes as they are leaving to be counted. That’s how you deal with peaceful resistance like that.
Which is what they should have done, and is the reason why the president and the chief of police should resign.
Still, some perspective: our of a couple hundred locations there were problems on less than 10. A Dutch work colleague that works in Barcelona told me how their parents called him 3-4 times on Sunday to ask if he was ok.
Of course he was, he was strolling with his kid in the park like every Sunday then had a coffee somewhere.
2017/10/03 10:51:59
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Yeah, even if the Catalonian government were being exploitative and manipulative in their handling of this referendum, the Spanish government were foolish for buying their trap hook, line and sinker. Even worse, their actions have left people of all types bleeding and battered. There's no going back from this as the moral high ground has been well and truly surrendered. There's so many better ways they could have handled this.
Also, I understand that the Catalonians are fighting back by forcing the Guarda Civil out of their hotels and refusing to serve or sell them food. Incidentally, the same thing happened in Ireland with the British before the war for independence kicked off. I'm not saying it'll come to independence but if I was a Catalonian I'd be looking for it now.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/03 10:53:52
2017/10/03 10:59:20
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
d-usa wrote: This is really taking the usual "Police vs Fire" rivalry to a new level, we gotta step up our game here in the US:
Fair play to the firefighters there though, and props to them. "You want to show up in protective gear and helmets to beat people up, well we got our own protective gear and helmets. Don't make us get the hoses..."
Another fake. The video shows no violence just a face off between police blocking the way to a "voting" station and the firefighters trying to force the way in, not protecting the people as you say. The violent thumbnail is from 2013 riots against budget cuts where the violence was started by firefighters trying to burn things in front of the Catalonia`s Parliament.
There is a propaganda war that the Spanish police has lost just by seeing the reactions in this thread tho it doesn't surprise me knowing about the traditional British press bias against Spain.
M.
PS: BTW the evil jackbooted thugs suppressing the heroic firefighters in that thumbnail and Metro article are the Mossos d'Escuadra. Another set of heroes from Sunday that usually feel more comfortable repressing Catalonian citizens at the beck and call of the regional government. /sarcasm
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/03 11:02:08
Jenkins: You don't have jurisdiction here!
Smith Jamison: We aren't here, which means when we open up on you and shred your bodies with automatic fire then this will never have happened.
About the Clans: "Those brief outbursts of sense can't hold back the wave of sibko bred, over hormoned sociopaths that they crank out though."
2017/10/03 11:15:01
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
To be totally honest, in this day and age of social media and social society where people have the ability to create their own truths based off what facts and fictions are tossed into the swirling pit it doesn't matter whats right and whats wrong.
The boring truth isn't as popular as the interesting lie. Now all the international world will see is Spain having used fascist tactics against normal everyday people, ripping the hair off children (as per the previous picture) and the brave firefighters of Catalonia facing off against the Spanish form of the SS.
It makes a more interesting story and will be shared hundredfold over the actual truth.
DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+ Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
2017/10/03 11:18:43
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
welshhoppo wrote: To be totally honest, in this day and age of social media and social society where people have the ability to create their own truths based off what facts and fictions are tossed into the swirling pit it doesn't matter whats right and whats wrong.
The boring truth isn't as popular as the interesting lie. Now all the international world will see is Spain having used fascist tactics against normal everyday people, ripping the hair off children (as per the previous picture) and the brave firefighters of Catalonia facing off against the Spanish form of the SS.
It makes a more interesting story and will be shared hundredfold over the actual truth.
Clicks and sales. Outrage sells more than truth.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/03 11:20:27
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
welshhoppo wrote: To be totally honest, in this day and age of social media and social society where people have the ability to create their own truths based off what facts and fictions are tossed into the swirling pit it doesn't matter whats right and whats wrong.
The boring truth isn't as popular as the interesting lie. Now all the international world will see is Spain having used fascist tactics against normal everyday people, ripping the hair off children (as per the previous picture) and the brave firefighters of Catalonia facing off against the Spanish form of the SS.
It makes a more interesting story and will be shared hundredfold over the actual truth.
Clicks and sales. Outrage sells more than truth.
Not even sales, it's just clicks these days.
DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+ Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
2017/10/03 14:45:04
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
d-usa wrote: They know where the ballot boxes are, so it’s easy to park officers out there and let people vote and then simply intercept the boxes as they are leaving to be counted. That’s how you deal with peaceful resistance like that.
Yeah, thats exactly how It sould have been made. But that wasn't "hard enough in those traitors" for the more nationalistic elements that support the PP, and that way the Catalonian Goverment wouldn't be allowed to play the victim card.
And yes, the Mossos D'esquadra are a regional police that is just at the beck and call of the pro-independence goverment. They had 0 problems to repress (With special brutality compared with the rest of Spain police) the protest in catalonia during the worst time of the crisis during 2012. It was back then when a woman lost an eye for a Rubber ball shoot by a Mosso D'esquadra agains't her face.
But many people has casually forgotten that, and they believe that now the Mossos are their "protectors", when at the end of the day the even doing obviously many good things and necesary things, are here to answer to the Catalonian Goverm.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/03 14:49:27
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/10/03 16:08:39
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
How can the rest of the EU let this happen? They are a powerful diplomatic body of civilised countries, and when one ends up with a problem like this, nothing happens!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/03 16:08:49
Maybe the internet has made it too easy to find people in the world who have views we find abhorrent, and somehow think whole other groups of people are like that?
I mean, you see stuff on facebook all the time of something really awful or stupid someone on the "other side" said or did, and how easy is it to start to think those outliers and extremists are typical of their group? How easy is it to constantly have your own opinion validated and repeated back to you while others are vilified? Isn't that how we get extremist terrorists who are willing to die just to kill some strangers who don't share their beliefs? Are we just becoming more divided in general?
2017/10/03 16:46:31
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Maybe the internet has made it too easy to find people in the world who have views we find abhorrent, and somehow think whole other groups of people are like that?
I mean, you see stuff on facebook all the time of something really awful or stupid someone on the "other side" said or did, and how easy is it to start to think those outliers and extremists are typical of their group? How easy is it to constantly have your own opinion validated and repeated back to you while others are vilified? Isn't that how we get extremist terrorists who are willing to die just to kill some strangers who don't share their beliefs? Are we just becoming more divided in general?
Nah, killing people because you don't like what they are saying is as old as humanity itself. Extremism existed long before the internet did. The only thing that has changed is that with the internet, it is much easier to get news of far-away places. So now you can hear about every single extremist incident in the world, whereas in the past you would only hear it if it was really important or happened close to you.
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
0012/10/03 17:45:02
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
CAPTAIN COWARD wrote: How can the rest of the EU let this happen? They are a powerful diplomatic body of civilised countries, and when one ends up with a problem like this, nothing happens!
Because this is nothing in truth. Wanna see the protests in France? Now, THAT is brutality.
2017/10/03 17:53:40
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Something about sovereignty and not interfering in internal business...
Since when did the EU ever care about that?
We saw in Greece and Italy that they have no qualms about interfering in a nation's internal affairs when its convenient and in the EU's interest to do so. That it is failing to do so now with Spain just proves their founding principles of Human Rights to be a sham.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/03 18:53:26
2017/10/03 18:50:52
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Seems after beating up the locals. There rather not welcome in catalonia.
You Don, t see what every often.
EU and EU leaders very quiet on events as a local issue as sorts but EU is very very quiet on the issue regardless of things they have not even called for calm.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/03 19:43:16
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Something about sovereignty and not interfering in internal business...
Since when did the EU ever care about that?
Well, they don't care about those things if it is Russia or any other country they dislike, that much is sure.
I remember when they sent EU officials to Ukraine to appear at the Kiev rallies and officially endorse the revolution.
They didn't care about national sovereignty then, so why would they care now?
Thats rhetorical. We all know its because they don't actually care about human rights and they have nothing to gain.
Are you seriously comparing Sunday with the Maidan events that left 500+ people dead?
No I'm not, I'm comparing the EU's response and eagerness to interfere in Ukraine vs their reluctance to interfere in Spain.
They only care about national sovereignty when convenient and they have nothing to gain from interfering.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Jeez, the Guarda Civil are a bunch of Nationalist thugs. Heres a photo of Policemen in their hotel waving Spanish flags and jeering at protesters outside.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/03 20:05:45
2017/10/03 21:43:55
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
No I'm not, I'm comparing the EU's response and eagerness to interfere in Ukraine vs their reluctance to interfere in Spain.
They only care about national sovereignty when convenient and they have nothing to gain from interfering.
If you want to ignore that there's been no outside interference from another country that wants to annex Catalonia, and has been actively engaged in undermining the Spanish government for years and is now denying sending troops across a national border to instigate a civil war in the rest of the Spain. But yeah sure. These scenarios are so similar. How dare the EU express a different opinion about an internal conflict than was expressed in an internal conflict engineered by a foreign power angry that it lost its puppet government.
Much hypocrisy. Much loss.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/03 21:44:30
No I'm not, I'm comparing the EU's response and eagerness to interfere in Ukraine vs their reluctance to interfere in Spain.
They only care about national sovereignty when convenient and they have nothing to gain from interfering.
If you want to ignore that there's been no outside interference from another country that wants to annex Catalonia, and has been actively engaged in undermining the Spanish government for years and is now denying sending troops across a national border to instigate a civil war in the rest of the Spain. But yeah sure. These scenarios are so similar. How dare the EU express a different opinion about an internal conflict than was expressed in an internal conflict engineered by a foreign power angry that it lost its puppet government.
Much hypocrisy. Much loss.
You might want to get your facts straight. All of those things happened after the EU started meddling in the Maidan protests. And Yanukovich, while generally pro-Russian (as he got his votes mostly from Ukraine's pro-Russian part of the population) was far from a Russian puppet. Also, Russia still has shown no desire to annex the mess called Ukraine.
And regardless of all of that, the point that he makes is still valid. Ukraine under Yanukovich was a sovereign country and a democracy. The protests against the Yanukovich government were a purely internal political affair. Yet the EU did not hesistate at all about violating Ukraine's sovereignty and interfering in its internal affairs. And now they are saying they won't meddle or even comment on the issues in Spain because that would violate Spain's sovereignty. The EU's respect for sovereignty is selective. They do not actually respect the principle of national sovereignty at all, they only respect allies and power politics. That is where the hypocrisy you are looking for is.
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2017/10/03 22:25:42
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
The differences between the situation in Spain and Ukraine are rather simple and very plain. It's very easy to see why the EU would respond to one in in one manner and the other in another manner, unless you have an ax to grind in one of them, which is where I point out how predictable it is who is involved in this particular line of talk
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iron_Captain wrote: The EU's respect for sovereignty is selective. They do not actually respect the principle of national sovereignty at all, they only respect allies and power politics. That is where the hypocrisy you are looking for is.
Of course its selective. No one in the world applies sovereignty in unilateral terms, because most people and most countries acknowledge that sovereignty is important but not absolute. You can debate the EU position that Yanukovich was a Russian puppet sure, but being wrong about Ukraine doesn't make the EU response to Spain hypocritical.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/03 22:36:01
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Something about sovereignty and not interfering in internal business...
Since when did the EU ever care about that?
Well, they don't care about those things if it is Russia or any other country they dislike, that much is sure.
I remember when they sent EU officials to Ukraine to appear at the Kiev rallies and officially endorse the revolution.
They didn't care about national sovereignty then, so why would they care now?
Thats rhetorical. We all know its because they don't actually care about human rights and they have nothing to gain.
Are you seriously comparing Sunday with the Maidan events that left 500+ people dead?
No I'm not, I'm comparing the EU's response and eagerness to interfere in Ukraine vs their reluctance to interfere in Spain.
They only care about national sovereignty when convenient and they have nothing to gain from interfering.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Jeez, the Guarda Civil are a bunch of Nationalist thugs. Heres a photo of Policemen in their hotel waving Spanish flags and jeering at protesters outside.
1st. Get your facts right those agents are Policía Nacional not Guardia Civil.
3rd. As I've said before you are giving incomplete information.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HdJnmkUMlU Why are you posting a thumbnail and not the whole video? Could be because if you give the whole picture your argument of Nationalist thugs loses strength?
Jeering thugs taunting the defenseless civilians or a close knit group of professionals in a very difficult position cheering each other to raise morale? Is that cheering and crying "'¡Viva España!", a hail to one's own country, a sign of Fascism nowadays?
Fun fact of that video. Minute 2.20 onward Mossos D`Scuadra (Regional police) arrest a woman that tried to fly a Spanish flag in support of the Policía Nacional near one of the hotels where they were lodged. I'm sure you and everybody else posting in this thread were unaware of that and I'm holding my breath while I await your condemnations for this violation of her free speech rights.
On the other hand you could get the whole picture but that involves reading something more complicated that a tweet with an impacting photo before commenting. Yes the police response was heavy handed but we have the same issue in every US shooting thread if a police officer on duty tells you to comply with law X and you fail to do so who is to blame then for the consequences?
Jenkins: You don't have jurisdiction here!
Smith Jamison: We aren't here, which means when we open up on you and shred your bodies with automatic fire then this will never have happened.
About the Clans: "Those brief outbursts of sense can't hold back the wave of sibko bred, over hormoned sociopaths that they crank out though."
2017/10/04 07:08:52
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Something about sovereignty and not interfering in internal business...
Since when did the EU ever care about that?
Well, they don't care about those things if it is Russia or any other country they dislike, that much is sure.
I remember when they sent EU officials to Ukraine to appear at the Kiev rallies and officially endorse the revolution.
They didn't care about national sovereignty then, so why would they care now?
Thats rhetorical. We all know its because they don't actually care about human rights and they have nothing to gain.
Are you seriously comparing Sunday with the Maidan events that left 500+ people dead?
No I'm not, I'm comparing the EU's response and eagerness to interfere in Ukraine vs their reluctance to interfere in Spain.
So on one hand you have 800 dead (forget about 500, I was quoting from memory) and several thousand injured vs. 4 people who required hospital stay (2 of which are still in hospital, one rubber bullet hit to an eye, and a 70-year old who experienced a stroke during the demonstrations).
Let me spell it again: snipers firing military-grade weapons against protesters from the rooftops vs modern riot control (of the kind the UK doesn't hesitate to use when needed).
2017/10/04 11:04:38
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/04 12:02:07
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
So on one hand you have 800 dead (forget about 500, I was quoting from memory) and several thousand injured vs. 4 people who required hospital stay (2 of which are still in hospital, one rubber bullet hit to an eye, and a 70-year old who experienced a stroke during the demonstrations).
Let me spell it again: snipers firing military-grade weapons against protesters from the rooftops vs modern riot control (of the kind the UK doesn't hesitate to use when needed).
Where are you getting 800 from? The biggest number I can find from any legitimate source is 100, and that's with reading reports of the protesters firing on police and the like. These two events are hardly alike at all.
So on one hand you have 800 dead (forget about 500, I was quoting from memory) and several thousand injured vs. 4 people who required hospital stay (2 of which are still in hospital, one rubber bullet hit to an eye, and a 70-year old who experienced a stroke during the demonstrations).
Let me spell it again: snipers firing military-grade weapons against protesters from the rooftops vs modern riot control (of the kind the UK doesn't hesitate to use when needed).
Where are you getting 800 from? The biggest number I can find from any legitimate source is 100, and that's with reading reports of the protesters firing on police and the like. These two events are hardly alike at all.
Yeah... the ante has definitely been upped. Curious to see what the next step will be...
Article 155.
Spain can rescind there anatomy and take direct control of the region.
however that would also be pretty inflammatory and negotiating a solution would be better idea.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/04 13:17:33
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
djones520 wrote: Sure, Spain can attempt to, but the question is will they, and if they do, how hard are the Catalonian's prepared to resist?
Why not? You have a local government trying to push a unilateral declaration of Independence (supported by 35-41% of the population) who has not only not respected due process, but also disobeying court orders.
Direct rule, then fresh elections. Hopefully it won't take 50 years like northern Ireland to go back to normal.
@djones those were Interfax figures now I look at them, so probably inflated. Glad you agree both situations are leagues apart, though which was the point I wanted to make.
2000pts Bane Of Sanity.
500pts Deathwing Cohort.
