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2017/10/11 16:18:24
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Ethnicity is not a excuse to destabilise a nation in difficult times, unless such "ethnicity" is persecuted somehow. If this is what you are implying, I will just laugh in your face. Don't try to play the "LOL DUMB AMERICAN DOESN'T GET IT" with me, I am Italian and I lived in half of Europe. And since I am Italian I know very well how much stupid independence movements can get. And this one is the dumbest because is just "look we have an economic advantage, let's feth everything up because we want to pay slightly less taxes". I expected more from Europe at this moment of history to be quite honest. One of the reasons the union was built was to go beyond this crap. Also, see what Galas posted.
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2017/10/11 16:21:29
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
2017/10/11 16:50:08
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Ethnicity is not a excuse to destabilise a nation in difficult times, unless such "ethnicity" is persecuted somehow.
Every independence movement in the world will disagree with you on this. Difficult times are the best times for trying to gain independence. If the state is totally stable, it is really damn hard to break away. And yeah... Look at history. Ethnicity is a great excuse for destabilising nations. Also, to a nationalist, foreign rule equals persecution.
Kaiyanwang wrote: If this is what you are implying, I will just laugh in your face. Don't try to play the "LOL DUMB AMERICAN DOESN'T GET IT" with me, I am Italian and I lived in half of Europe.
I didn't call you dumb...
Kaiyanwang wrote: And since I am Italian I know very well how much stupid independence movements can get.
Idk. Regional independence movements in Italy don't seem to have the same kind of momentum as those in Spain. Correct me if I am wrong, but to me it seems that 'Italian' as an identity and ethnicity is much stronger than the Spanish identity is.
Kaiyanwang wrote: And this one is the dumbest because is just "look we have an economic advantage, let's feth everything up because we want to pay slightly less taxes".
There is more than just economic reasons. Economic reasons can fuel an independence movement, but the main driving factors are always pride in the own identity and the desire to be free of 'foreign' rule, for a people to be masters of their own destiny.
Kaiyanwang wrote: I expected more from Europe at this moment of history to be quite honest. One of the reasons the union was built was to go beyond this crap.
Not really. The Union was created to form a large economic block that can compete with other great economic powers such as the US and China. It wasn't meant to put an end to European nation-states, nationalism, regional indentities or independence movements. Quite the contrary, the EU has a lot of legislation that protects and empowers smaller ethnic groups that do not have their own state and the EU has been huge in fanning the flame of nationalism across Europe (surprisingly, nationalists don't like it when foreigners dictate rules to them).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/11 16:51:42
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
2017/10/11 23:04:23
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Iron_Captain wrote: Sometimes you can and sometimes you can not. It depends on the specific ethnic identity.
Take, as an example, Native Americans vs the US. Many of us are forcibly part of someone else's country, because they made a law there that we had no say in, and our lands were seized by force of arms (leaving out the genocide, etc etc to further damage relations). From our perspective, we have every right to tell them to GTFO. Many of us see ourselves as Native far ahead of any 'American' national identity. There are many reasons for this, but that's it in a nutshell.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2017/10/11 23:14:25
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Every independence movement in the world will disagree with you on this. Difficult times are the best times for trying to gain independence. If the state is totally stable, it is really damn hard to break away. And yeah... Look at history. Ethnicity is a great excuse for destabilising nations. Also, to a nationalist, foreign rule equals persecution.
This does not make them suddenly on the right.
Idk. Regional independence movements in Italy don't seem to have the same kind of momentum as those in Spain. Correct me if I am wrong, but to me it seems that 'Italian' as an identity and ethnicity is much stronger than the Spanish identity is.
You don't know Italy very well, do you? There is more troubled past between 2 random Tuscanian cities than anything that ever happened between Catalonia and Madrid. Also hold my beer and watch this:
Spoiler:
Half of these will disappear in 100 years but I guess you get my point. Italians are italians when outside the borders and when the national soccer team plays. See genetics scientific papers too. Geneticists always have to classify italians in 3-5 clusters because is impossible to cluster them together. EDIT: of course everyone is required to know Standard Italian, that is a form of Tuscanian.
There is more than just economic reasons. Economic reasons can fuel an independence movement, but the main driving factors are always pride in the own identity and the desire to be free of 'foreign' rule, for a people to be masters of their own destiny.
I'd rather say that since you cannot "just" say that is for economic reasons, you bring some more poetic crap on the table.
Not really. The Union was created to form a large economic block that can compete with other great economic powers such as the US and China. It wasn't meant to put an end to European nation-states, nationalism, regional indentities or independence movements. Quite the contrary, the EU has a lot of legislation that protects and empowers smaller ethnic groups that do not have their own state and the EU has been huge in fanning the flame of nationalism across Europe (surprisingly, nationalists don't like it when foreigners dictate rules to them).
This is true, but incomplete. You stated valid reasons but the removal of nationalisms was an idea that stemmed from the end of WWII because draw borders on ethnicities was one of the reasons that led to that bloodshed. Then the EU support local languages but is a matter of conservation of european culture, because we have a fragmented, beautiful identity. They do it with other stuff like art or food. But this means do not suppress regional cultures, and support them. That's fantastic. Does not mean that such regional identity must be a reason to fragment the states that are part of the union. Also, remember that when some secessionist start to be rowdy, the EU remembers: "dude, if you go, you have to re-do all the deals with the EU from scratches".
Iron_Captain wrote: Sometimes you can and sometimes you can not. It depends on the specific ethnic identity.
Take, as an example, Native Americans vs the US. Many of us are forcibly part of someone else's country, because they made a law there that we had no say in, and our lands were seized by force of arms (leaving out the genocide, etc etc to further damage relations). From our perspective, we have every right to tell them to GTFO. Many of us see ourselves as Native far ahead of any 'American' national identity. There are many reasons for this, but that's it in a nutshell.
I completely understand this, but the situation in Catalonia is so different that is comical. The Crown of Aragona was actually dominating half of current Italy for centuries, they were not an oppressed minority in their country.
This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2017/10/12 13:54:31
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
2017/10/12 01:36:32
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
I completely understand this, but the situation in Catalonia is so different that is comical.
The Crown of Aragona was actually dominating half of current Italy for centuries, they were not an oppressed minority in their country.
While I admit that I'm arguing from a position of ignorance here (my interest in Catalonia only really extends as far as the Albigensian Crusade) you seem to think that people just 'forget' about who they used to be. Take Ireland; the Irish were under the yoke of England for centuries, and yet they exploited the first world war to try and gain their freedom. It didn't quite take on the first try, and England's reprisals can only be called 'inhuman', but I think you can see where I'm going with this.
Just because one is decedent from Magnus Maximus does not mean that all of western Europe should be bending a knee to one's Imperial throne. A nation's boarders are not set in stone, and sometimes it's better to let a little territory go to preserve internal peace.
Mariano Rajoy is truly a case to be studied. One of the most incompetent politicians in all of Spanish history, but he jump from political win to political win without doing NOTHING. Literally, others won his battles for him!
And about that new, yeah. This is the Catalonian Schrödinger independence
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/10/12 06:07:12
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Sorry Galas, but Rajoy is an idiot, he and Theresa May should breed, for science, and the offspring installed as a ruler of a small island in a park under controlled monitoring to see how they will feth up next.
This is what I was concerned would happen and the worse for the fact that Puigdemont didnt make solid statements of a delayed independence move, he merely implied it. Now the implication comes with threats, threats Puigdemont needs to cement support.
Independent wrote:Spain's prime minister had demanded Catalan's leader clarifies whether independence has been declared.
Mariano Rajoy said clarification is needed before he can decide what steps to take, going on to say the Catalan government's response would be crucial in deciding "events over the coming days."
In a veiled threat, he said the clarity was required by the constitutional article that would allow Spain to intervene and take control of some or all of Catalonia's regional powers.
He said the government "wants to offer certainty to citizens" and it is "necessary to return tranquility and calm."
Catalan regional president Carles Puigdemont said he would proceed with the secession but would suspend it for a few weeks in order to facilitate negotiations.
The Spanish government has given little indication it is willing to entertain the talks.
I see bait.
Puigdemont: "We are willing to negotiate"
Rajoy: "All we want to know is are you preparing UDI, if so I am getting my hammer."
...soon....
Puigdemont: "look everyone, we tried to be reasonable, but Spain isn't willing to negotiate."
I am surprised the Spanish government have made it this easy. Rajopy cant be the only idiot, his hardline speech got a standing ovation appartently.
While I admit that I'm arguing from a position of ignorance here (my interest in Catalonia only really extends as far as the Albigensian Crusade) you seem to think that people just 'forget' about who they used to be. Take Ireland; the Irish were under the yoke of England for centuries, and yet they exploited the first world war to try and gain their freedom. It didn't quite take on the first try, and England's reprisals can only be called 'inhuman', but I think you can see where I'm going with this.
Yep, that's a position of ignorance alright.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/12 06:15:10
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2017/10/12 10:15:34
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Iron_Captain wrote: Every independence movement in the world will disagree with you on this
Especially without it resulting in a war. What? Catalonians would be better off waiting for stable time and then rice up in arms with rifles etc ala what America did? THAT'S better solution?
Peacefully without bloodshed you pretty much need host country to NOT be in stable situation or you are never pulling it off.
It wasn't meant to put an end to European nation-states, nationalism, regional indentities or independence movements. Quite the contrary, the EU has a lot of legislation that protects and empowers smaller ethnic groups that do not have their own state and the EU has been huge in fanning the flame of nationalism across Europe (surprisingly, nationalists don't like it when foreigners dictate rules to them).
Yeah. Finland is part of EU. I'm still Finnish. Lot different than just being same country. You can have funny enough mutually beneficially alliance and separate countries.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Random note. Yes got 92.01% votes with 43.03% attendance? So if I'm not off with my calculations if somewhere between 18% and 19% of remaining population that didn't vote would have voted yes on the scenario where ALL votes yes would have got over 50% anyway.
Far cry from 90% but were "no" really THAT lopsided in non-voters if majority are against independence?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/12 12:08:51
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2017/10/12 12:28:43
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Random note. Yes got 92.01% votes with 43.03% attendance? So if I'm not off with my calculations if somewhere between 18% and 19% of remaining population that didn't vote would have voted yes on the scenario where ALL votes yes would have got over 50% anyway.
Far cry from 90% but were "no" really THAT lopsided in non-voters if majority are against independence?
If you forget people voting multiple times, ballot boxes full of votes even before the vote officially started, people voting in their own home and in the street without any kind of verifiable census and even the official figures not adding up yes, the vote results were very impressive for the Indy camp.
2017/10/12 13:50:26
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
I completely understand this, but the situation in Catalonia is so different that is comical. The Crown of Aragona was actually dominating half of current Italy for centuries, they were not an oppressed minority in their country.
Take Ireland; the Irish were under the yoke of England for centuries, and yet they exploited the first world war to try and gain their freedom. It didn't quite take on the first try, and England's reprisals can only be called 'inhuman', but I think you can see where I'm going with this.
My point is exactly this: Compare an union of Crowns with what the Irish had to suffer under the english is incredibly unfair. What I see in Catalonia is "I don't want to pay tax-I MEAN, I HAVE BEE OPPRESSED (?) CENTURIES!".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/12 13:52:24
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
2017/10/12 14:19:21
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
My point is exactly this: Compare an union of Crowns with what the Irish had to suffer under the english is incredibly unfair. What I see in Catalonia is "I don't want to pay tax-I MEAN, I HAVE BEE OPPRESSED (?) CENTURIES!".
That's exactly what we told the Americans! But did they listen?
2017/10/12 21:28:24
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
My point is exactly this: Compare an union of Crowns with what the Irish had to suffer under the english is incredibly unfair. What I see in Catalonia is "I don't want to pay tax-I MEAN, I HAVE BEE OPPRESSED (?) CENTURIES!".
That's exactly what we told the Americans! But did they listen?
They NEVER listen.
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
2017/10/12 22:14:55
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
I do think Spain will roll in tanks etc.
They will March in gurdia civil.
However is gonna make some very ugly images as you take over and evict catalan police, arrest catalan government members.
Its gone a stick in people's minds.
Spain will restore control, and EU will hand wave it. Glad secretly as it sends message EU is one block.
It will look ugly though. And catalonia will remember watching Spain seize back control.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/12 22:16:28
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/12 23:32:33
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Every independence movement in the world will disagree with you on this. Difficult times are the best times for trying to gain independence. If the state is totally stable, it is really damn hard to break away. And yeah... Look at history. Ethnicity is a great excuse for destabilising nations. Also, to a nationalist, foreign rule equals persecution.
This does not make them suddenly on the right.
That depends on the person you are talking to. Right and wrong are relative.
Kaiyanwang wrote: You don't know Italy very well, do you? There is more troubled past between 2 random Tuscanian cities than anything that ever happened between Catalonia and Madrid. Also hold my beer and watch this:
Spoiler:
Half of these will disappear in 100 years but I guess you get my point. Italians are italians when outside the borders and when the national soccer team plays. See genetics scientific papers too. Geneticists always have to classify italians in 3-5 clusters because is impossible to cluster them together. EDIT: of course everyone is required to know Standard Italian, that is a form of Tuscanian.
No, you are right about that. I have been to Rome lots of times and generally traveled around Italy quite a bit (though never farther south than Rome). I think it is a wonderful country, but yeah. That does not mean I am very knowledgeable on it, although I probably know more than the average person not from Italy (especially about the history). I do know there is loads of regional cultures, languages and identities in Italy, but my point was that to me it seemed (when I am in Italy or when I talk to Italians) that they all seem to identify as Italian as well. This common Italian identity seemed to be to be stronger than the common Spanish identity in Spain. Pretty much a lot like Germany where you also have loads of strong regional identities but despite that people also have strong common German identity. These are just observations by me though, so if you say it is otherwise I will believe you.
There is more than just economic reasons. Economic reasons can fuel an independence movement, but the main driving factors are always pride in the own identity and the desire to be free of 'foreign' rule, for a people to be masters of their own destiny.
I'd rather say that since you cannot "just" say that is for economic reasons, you bring some more poetic crap on the table.
Thing is, people care about this 'poetic crap'. A lot. 'Poetic crap' like this can stir strong emotions in a way that economic arguments never will be able to.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/12 23:32:57
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2017/10/13 03:40:06
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
I do think Spain will roll in tanks etc.
They will March in gurdia civil.
However is gonna make some very ugly images as you take over and evict catalan police, arrest catalan government members.
Its gone a stick in people's minds.
Spain will restore control, and EU will hand wave it. Glad secretly as it sends message EU is one block.
It will look ugly though. And catalonia will remember watching Spain seize back control.
That's the Catalan government plan.
So the central government formally asked Cat Govt if they had indeed declared independence or not, and apparently they are going to answer with a transcript of Mr. Puigdemont address. You can't make this gak up.
Meanwhile 3 of the 4 biggest parties on the Spanish parliament have agreed to start the process of Constitutional reform, though they will not recognize Puigdemont as a valid party in the talks, so the plan seems to be to force a regional election through direct rule so that a new untainted government is elected and talks can be started. PdeCat seems to be quietly grooming Santi Vila for the job.
2017/10/14 04:02:42
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
I do think Spain will roll in tanks etc.
They will March in gurdia civil.
However is gonna make some very ugly images as you take over and evict catalan police, arrest catalan government members.
Its gone a stick in people's minds.
Spain will restore control, and EU will hand wave it. Glad secretly as it sends message EU is one block.
It will look ugly though. And catalonia will remember watching Spain seize back control.
If this is so I have to wonder if a terrorist campaign will start. Nobody needs it to go that far, but cooler heads will cease to prevail and someone somewhere might make a bomb. If the Spanish government does roll in the army Puidgemont's best option is to ask for total non-cooperation.
The EU''s handling of this has been staid but I can see the underlaying desperation. Brexit didn't cause the same ruffles. If the Brits want out let them, not that they can stop us. Catalonia would leave a hole inside the EU geographical bloc and that they will not tolerate. Hence the turning of blind eyes everywhere.
Poland was threatened with sanctions because it placed unilateral limitations on immigration, Spain can use police brutality and the same EU which has bleeding hearts over Poland turning away refugees is quite happy to let Spain get on with it,
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2017/10/19 16:29:21
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
jouso wrote: So the central government formally asked Cat Govt if they had indeed declared independence or not, and apparently they are going to answer with a transcript of Mr. Puigdemont address. You can't make this gak up.
Guess Madrid didn't take that response well. They're preparing to invoke 155.
Meanwhile 3 of the 4 biggest parties on the Spanish parliament have agreed to start the process of Constitutional reform, though they will not recognize Puigdemont as a valid party in the talks, so the plan seems to be to force a regional election through direct rule so that a new untainted government is elected and talks can be started. PdeCat seems to be quietly grooming Santi Vila for the job.
Pardon my ignorance of the Spanish election law. Can the federal government use Article 155 like a scalpel to dissolve the Catalan parliament? Have them re-elect, then gamble on the new government being less interested in pursuing the Catexit agenda with the constitutional reform as the carrot and increased autonomy loss as the stick. Then you can usurp Puigdemont's moral high ground of leaning on the ballot box by calling for a more "legitimate" election.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/10/19 16:50:40
2017/10/19 17:53:52
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
jouso wrote: So the central government formally asked Cat Govt if they had indeed declared independence or not, and apparently they are going to answer with a transcript of Mr. Puigdemont address. You can't make this gak up.
Guess Madrid didn't take that response well. They're preparing to invoke 155.
Meanwhile 3 of the 4 biggest parties on the Spanish parliament have agreed to start the process of Constitutional reform, though they will not recognize Puigdemont as a valid party in the talks, so the plan seems to be to force a regional election through direct rule so that a new untainted government is elected and talks can be started. PdeCat seems to be quietly grooming Santi Vila for the job.
Pardon my ignorance of the Spanish election law. Can the federal government use Article 155 like a scalpel to dissolve the Catalan parliament? Have them re-elect, then gamble on the new government being less interested in pursuing the Catexit agenda with the constitutional reform as the carrot and increased autonomy loss as the stick. Then you can usurp Puigdemont's moral high ground of leaning on the ballot box by calling for a more "legitimate" election.
That would be a smart strategy, but as there previously proven actions are. They where not. They used thugs, rubber bullets and aggressive tactics.
There probbly gonna be idiots. March in. Depose police and just looks awful.
It's gonna leave the Catalan question hovering for months or years.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/20 06:35:14
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
jouso wrote: So the central government formally asked Cat Govt if they had indeed declared independence or not, and apparently they are going to answer with a transcript of Mr. Puigdemont address. You can't make this gak up.
Guess Madrid didn't take that response well. They're preparing to invoke 155.
Meanwhile 3 of the 4 biggest parties on the Spanish parliament have agreed to start the process of Constitutional reform, though they will not recognize Puigdemont as a valid party in the talks, so the plan seems to be to force a regional election through direct rule so that a new untainted government is elected and talks can be started. PdeCat seems to be quietly grooming Santi Vila for the job.
Pardon my ignorance of the Spanish election law. Can the federal government use Article 155 like a scalpel to dissolve the Catalan parliament? Have them re-elect, then gamble on the new government being less interested in pursuing the Catexit agenda with the constitutional reform as the carrot and increased autonomy loss as the stick. Then you can usurp Puigdemont's moral high ground of leaning on the ballot box by calling for a more "legitimate" election.
Exactly. Under the table Puigdemont was offered amnesty if they called an election, and refused.
The next step is use 155 to call an election if they don't by themselves. Indy supporters know they've reached their high water mark and now that the real economic weight of independence is being felt, just by thinking it might happen, momentum is on the remain side.
2017/10/20 10:50:08
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
As long as the election is run fairly using the same mechanisms that are normally used for running Catalonian elections, the result will be legitimate regardless of whether the election was triggered by Madrid or the Catalan parliament.
Whether the result is a parliament that is pro- or anti-independence, it will be in a strong position to deal with the Madrid government and the independence movement.
The referendum result cannot be taken as a legitimate democratice vote because it was badly disrupted on both sides.
Kilkrazy wrote: As long as the election is run fairly using the same mechanisms that are normally used for running Catalonian elections, the result will be legitimate regardless of whether the election was triggered by Madrid or the Catalan parliament.
Whether the result is a parliament that is pro- or anti-independence, it will be in a strong position to deal with the Madrid government and the independence movement.
The referendum result cannot be taken as a legitimate democratice vote because it was badly disrupted on both sides.
Whether it is legitimate or not depends on one's point of view really. Hardcore nationalists probably do not see Madrid's control over Catalonia as legitimate, so they could see any election called by them as also not being legitimate.
But yeah, in case the nationalists don't make too much trouble over it, a new Catalan government could be a very good start for negotiations indeed.
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
2017/10/20 11:42:08
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Kilkrazy wrote: As long as the election is run fairly using the same mechanisms that are normally used for running Catalonian elections, the result will be legitimate regardless of whether the election was triggered by Madrid or the Catalan parliament.
Whether the result is a parliament that is pro- or anti-independence, it will be in a strong position to deal with the Madrid government and the independence movement.
The referendum result cannot be taken as a legitimate democratice vote because it was badly disrupted on both sides.
Whether it is legitimate or not depends on one's point of view really. Hardcore nationalists probably do not see Madrid's control over Catalonia as legitimate, so they could see any election called by them as also not being legitimate.
But yeah, in case the nationalists don't make too much trouble over it, a new Catalan government could be a very good start for negotiations indeed.
Elections seem best plan if I'm honest.
Id not wanna be Madrid representative who had to be Catalan leader, there's a percentage who see you and any guada civil as a occupation.
Just not a job you'd want.
Letting the elect and negotiate with a more sensible government makes far more sense.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/20 11:59:27
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Yes, I agree. Though if hardliners don't see a Catalan election as legitimate if it was called by Madrid, the current Catalan parliament was set up by Madrid, so it too must illegitimate by the same reasoning, and so is the referendum it decided to hold. Yet those same hardliners are clamoring that the election result justifies immediate independence.
In other words, some people accept or reject things according to their own preferences, without much concern for fairness and principles.
Kilkrazy wrote: As long as the election is run fairly using the same mechanisms that are normally used for running Catalonian elections, the result will be legitimate regardless of whether the election was triggered by Madrid or the Catalan parliament.
Whether the result is a parliament that is pro- or anti-independence, it will be in a strong position to deal with the Madrid government and the independence movement.
The referendum result cannot be taken as a legitimate democratice vote because it was badly disrupted on both sides.
Whether it is legitimate or not depends on one's point of view really. Hardcore nationalists probably do not see Madrid's control over Catalonia as legitimate, so they could see any election called by them as also not being legitimate.
But yeah, in case the nationalists don't make too much trouble over it, a new Catalan government could be a very good start for negotiations indeed.
Elections seem best plan if I'm honest.
Id not wanna be Madrid representative who had to be Catalan leader, there's a percentage who see you and any guada civil as a occupation.
They don't need to send the guardia civil, just put the mossos under direct control of the govt. Art. 155 is not a wholesale reversal of autonomy but more like putting a few technocrats in key positions of the regional govt.
Main parties have agreed to make a new election on January this morning so there's that.
2017/10/20 20:54:45
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Why do a lot of people keep talking about these mythical catalans?
Are they some kind of cat people?
The Spanish region is called Catalonia in English, and it inhabitants are Catalonians, so who are you people discussing?
2017/10/20 20:56:40
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Bran Dawri wrote: Why do a lot of people keep talking about these mythical catalans?
Are they some kind of cat people?
The Spanish region is called Catalonia in English, and it inhabitants are Catalonians, so who are you people discussing?
Both are valid.
2017/10/20 22:07:26
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
My point is exactly this: Compare an union of Crowns with what the Irish had to suffer under the english is incredibly unfair. What I see in Catalonia is "I don't want to pay tax-I MEAN, I HAVE BEE OPPRESSED (?) CENTURIES!".
That's exactly what we told the Americans! But did they listen?
They NEVER listen.
It's hard to hear over all the freedom fireworks.
Spoiler:
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/21 02:32:11
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2017/10/21 02:37:58
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Bran Dawri wrote: Why do a lot of people keep talking about these mythical catalans?
Are they some kind of cat people?
The Spanish region is called Catalonia in English, and it inhabitants are Catalonians, so who are you people discussing?
You know this would be pretty good fodder for some memes. Someone find a picture of a cat and slap "Catalan has wares, if you have coins" on it
