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2017/10/31 15:01:06
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
To go back to the point about the EU not accepting Catalonia as a separate member state, the idea that it is different to Czechoslovakia sounds a bit "No true Scotsman."
After all, whatever Madrid thinks, one of the core values of the EU is self-determination, and another one is the ability to accomodate separate states within a union. It's a bad example, since Scotland voted to remain in the Union, but who can doubt that the EU would have easily been able to accept Scotland as a member?
Look at the problems around the Irish border with the UK. Why would the EU want to create another problem like that in between southern France and northern Spain.
The Flemish regional autonomous government has guaranteed political asylum. They have the legal power, and political motive to do this. Puigdemont cant be touched by lawful means so long as that state of grace persists.
Cool, thanks for the info! I remember those chaps making trouble before because they wouldn't ratify a treaty or something.
2017/10/31 15:45:36
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
They have played the hand they had, and played it well.
No outright majority, no military force, no international recognition.
I can't agree to that. They have driven an almost irreconciliable wedge between two sides of Catalonia that had for the most part lived harmoniously side by side. They have sent away almost 2.000 companies away (losing over half a % point of GDP in one week). And, what's more important, they have awakened a unionist movement which didn't exist as such, leading the way for more confrontation in the future.
You don't see the wedge but this campaign has been long ongoing, so others do.
You don't like developments, but nobody is asking you to.
Puigdemont has played his hand well, and that is ongoing, not over.
Today he held a press conference, in Brussels, in English. Accusing Madrid of heavy handedness and calling on Catalans for peaceful opposition only (violent seperatism could undo what the pro-indy movement has achieved).
On top it off being given reassurances of asylum from the autonomous Flemish government, which has this power within Belgium, and despite facing charges and threat of extremely heavy sentencing, 30 years at current count. He is making claiming to make press conferences in Brussels not you asylum purposes (thinly technically true as Ghent is offering asylum) but because Brussels is the heart of the EU.
Now international pres won't be focused on Puigdemont for long, next topical shiny will draw attention away. Best Madrid can do is try a business as usual approach and consolidate in Catalonia, however because Madrid is making heavy handed threats, failing to implement them will lose faith and control over time; unless they consolidate media control heavily, which is not impossible as the Catalonia broadcasting services are directly under Madrid's control now, and other EU countries are receptive to propaganda as shown. But memories and hopes don't go away.
Tactical stalemate (and that's being generous) for a strategic major defeat.
You are reading this very wrong. A crackdown was inevitable, and Madrid could bully the province any time it wants to, and the EU is afraid of further seperatism. Recognised independence was not a viable current goal, but it can be set up for later. This has been achieved.
Puigdemont has moved over for new separatist leaders to take centre stage, they need a charismatic now in Barcelona that Madrid cannot legally touch. He can cheerlead from Belgium, and remind Catalans that their lawfully democratically elected government, removed by dictat had already prior to its removal held a vote for UDI based on the mandate given them by the people; and that it is only a matter of time.
Spain will feth up soon, the pieces are in place, wait for events, keep a shiny demogogue with no attached scandal in the wings to offer 'hope' and 'change'. Next global recession maybe, maybe sooner if the PP feths up badly enough.
That's a rather interesting interpretation of the situation. They way it's been read around here (even by pro-indy media) is that Puigdemont is just trying the last hail mary to save his bottom from prison. He didn't tell anyone from the government except his 4 mates in running that he was leaving. His CUP and ERC partners in government have stopped just short of calling him a traitor, and are trying to salvage what's left of the deposed government (https://www.ara.cat/politica/Junqueras-Turull-Romeva-Parlament-Puigdemont_0_1897610357.html), so in essence the deposed government is effectively split into two camps.
His heir presumptive has already stepped forward (Santi Vila, I spoke about him a few weeks back) for the December election trying to stem the flow of votes towards other parties. The rift between PDeCat, ERC and CUP is beyond repair now and a rework of the Junts x Sí coalition is impossible. Santi Vila who, btw, is opposed to independence since the party has recognised they have to go back to their moderate roots as a middle-class, conservative outfit.
The CUP and ERC hope for disobedience has not materialised, all public servants have welcomed their new PP overlords and the transition has been smooth.
So yes, they have overplayed their hand, exhausted their voter base and in the process set back the economic clock for a few years.
2017/10/31 15:49:23
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
avantgarde wrote: Puigdemont said in his morning presser he's not seeking asylum, he's just waiting for a guarantee from Spain. Who also haven't issued a warrant.
So he and his cabinet are probably trying to negotiate some sort of amnesty to avoid the messiness of arrest for both sides.
Watch what is said and done.
Here are the events in order.
1. Flemish autonomous regional government guarantees asylum in public record.
2. Puigdemont and five other Catalan seperatist leaders drive over the border to France, the Mossos do not hinder them.
3. In France as EU citizens they fly to Belgium before the French can hope to react to a Spanish warrant (as yet unissued) , they wont dare act unilaterally so this move was safe once Puigdemont was outside Spain.
4. Puigdemont makes the comments that he made today in Belgium.
Puigdemont is telling the truth by direct technicality: he has NOT claimed asylum, yet. He will not need to until a warrant is issued. Spain also knows that if that line is crossed so long as Puigdemont is in Belgium when it happens he is safe.
Reading between the lines Puigdemont's actual guarantee was the public statement, which means that the Catalan and Flemish region governments were likely in communication throughout. Puigdemont has visited Ghent before the two separatist governments have similar agendas and consider each other allies. Some degree of trust is there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/31 15:50:00
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2017/10/31 15:50:22
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
The Flemish regional autonomous government has guaranteed political asylum. They have the legal power, and political motive to do this. Puigdemont cant be touched by lawful means so long as that state of grace persists.
Cool, thanks for the info! I remember those chaps making trouble before because they wouldn't ratify a treaty or something.
If would be cool if it was true.
It all comes from a single comment by a single junior minister. His party has stated they haven't invited Puigdemont, the Belgian government has said pretty much the same and the Spanish government has said that so far Mr. Puigdemont is free to go anywhere just like any other European citizen.
2017/10/31 15:53:25
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
You know this is a perfect time for the Spanish...Inquisition!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2017/10/31 15:53:27
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
1. Flemish autonomous regional government guarantees asylum in public record.
2. Puigdemont and five other Catalan seperatist leaders drive over the border to France, the Mossos do not hinder them.
3. In France as EU citizens they fly to Belgium before the French can hope to react to a Spanish warrant (as yet unissued) , they wont dare act unilaterally so this move was safe once Puigdemont was outside Spain.
4. Puigdemont makes the comments that he made today in Belgium.
1. Is not true. Theo Francken, a junior minister said they could. His PM shut him down, his party said they don't have anything to do with that.
2. They didn't need to. They could have taken the flight from Barcelona. Puigdemont (as ex-president) still has police escort, so his movements are known all the time.
2017/10/31 16:06:34
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
To go back to the point about the EU not accepting Catalonia as a separate member state, the idea that it is different to Czechoslovakia sounds a bit "No true Scotsman."
when Czecheslovakia split there was no Czecheslovakia left to complain have half the nation had left Czecheslovakia.
Spain will remain if Catalonia goes. Spain will complain if Catalonia goes.
After all, whatever Madrid thinks, one of the core values of the EU is self-determination,
A soundbyte, that is all. The EU has been very heavy handed sometimes and quite willing to ride roughshod over self determination. Smaller non-core economies get railroaded as required.
In 2008 Ireland voted in a referendum to not back the Lisbon treaty. That wasn't good enough for the EU so the Irish had to vote again in 2009 and potentially again until they got it 'right'.
In 2015 Greece rejected austerity in the referendum, in 2016 it happened anyway due to EU pressure.
and another one is the ability to accomodate separate states within a union. It's a bad example, since Scotland voted to remain in the Union, but who can doubt that the EU would have easily been able to accept Scotland as a member?
I can doubt, and so could you if you understood realpolitik.
We had this conversation before in 2014 and you couldnt get over your very naive and two dimensional view of international politics. Yes Scotland could be a feasible economy but there is far more to it than that.
In 2014 Rajoy publically confirmed that Spain would veto Scottish membership of the EU in case it triggered hopes of separatist ambitions in Catalonia. I believed him then, do you in hindsight believe him now?
Look at the problems around the Irish border with the UK. Why would the EU want to create another problem like that in between southern France and northern Spain.
They don't, but problems like this happen. Take a look at how France has been reacting. Have you seen French media coverage, you got more balanced reporting from the Soviet Union. They need this problem like a hole in the head.
1. Flemish autonomous regional government guarantees asylum in public record.
2. Puigdemont and five other Catalan seperatist leaders drive over the border to France, the Mossos do not hinder them.
3. In France as EU citizens they fly to Belgium before the French can hope to react to a Spanish warrant (as yet unissued) , they wont dare act unilaterally so this move was safe once Puigdemont was outside Spain.
4. Puigdemont makes the comments that he made today in Belgium.
1. Is not true. Theo Francken, a junior minister said they could. His PM shut him down, his party said they don't have anything to do with that.
2. They didn't need to. They could have taken the flight from Barcelona. Puigdemont (as ex-president) still has police escort, so his movements are known all the time.
So Puigdemont takes a flight from Barcelona to Brussels. Spanish air traffic control diverts flight to Madrid on central government orders. They can do that and the pilot would comply.
The French dare not get directly involved with same from flight from Marseilles to Brussels, and said flight could not be diverted across a third party border not on its flight path.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/31 16:14:26
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2017/10/31 16:17:30
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
I still feel in my naievete (Fr) that Puigedemont's midnlight flit to Ghent may not be the culmination of his amazing masterplan to convince Catalonia to vote for independence.
So Puigdemont takes a flight from Barcelona to Brussels. Spanish air traffic control diverts flight to Madrid on central government orders. They can do that and the pilot would comply.
The French dare not get directly involved with same from flight from Marseilles to Brussels, and said flight could not be diverted across a third party border not on its flight path.
Why on earth would Spain do that? Belgium is within EAW reach. It makes absolutely no difference than if he just stayed at home.... except for media purposes, that is.
EAW is automatic. It doesn't go through the executive (regional or otherwise) as you seem to think.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/31 16:19:18
2017/10/31 16:22:50
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
The Flemish regional autonomous government has guaranteed political asylum. They have the legal power, and political motive to do this. Puigdemont cant be touched by lawful means so long as that state of grace persists.
Cool, thanks for the info! I remember those chaps making trouble before because they wouldn't ratify a treaty or something.
If would be cool if it was true.
It all comes from a single comment by a single junior minister. His party has stated they haven't invited Puigdemont, the Belgian government has said pretty much the same and the Spanish government has said that so far Mr. Puigdemont is free to go anywhere just like any other European citizen.
We wont see it confirmed true or false until Spain tries to make a move. If they do formalise the warrants threatened it will be a staring contest. Spain may well lose that.
Do you feel lucky punk?
So Puigdemont takes a flight from Barcelona to Brussels. Spanish air traffic control diverts flight to Madrid on central government orders. They can do that and the pilot would comply.
The French dare not get directly involved with same from flight from Marseilles to Brussels, and said flight could not be diverted across a third party border not on its flight path.
Why on earth would Spain do that? Belgium is within EAW reach. It makes absolutely no difference than if he just stayed at home.... except for media purposes, that is.
EAW is automatic. It doesn't go through the executive (regional or otherwise) as you seem to think.
Not in Belgium it isnt. Remember compliance to EU law is for non-core members. France, Germany and Belgium do as they please. See above link.
Belgium has refused to ratify EAW, France refuses to ratify EU copyright law, I dont know what Germany refuses to ratify, but if they choseexception for themselves in an area or two they would likely get away with it.
The UK was in a very similar position, there was a lot binding on the UK that the UK ignored, but the UK had to fight for its special status, motions against France, Belgian and German interests never get tabled to begin with but get filtered out prior to reaching assembly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/31 16:27:22
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2017/10/31 16:43:22
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
I still feel in my naievete (Fr) that Puigedemont's midnlight flit to Ghent may not be the culmination of his amazing masterplan to convince Catalonia to vote for independence.
Well it worked, they did and he managed to get a UDI out of it.
That is as far as it goes.
Spain has more tanks, Spain has international recognition, Spain has more police more money more everything. Pro-indy cant win if Spain doesnt overplay its hand. They got a lot of momentum from Rajoy's mistakes. They cant count on that all the time, especially with the EU breathing down Rajoy's neck.
People are people though, they change their minds on issues. The economy if pretty good right now, people vote for odd things when their wallets are empty though. Trump for instance. Spain doesnt have the most stable economy, and is fairly corrupt. Time now to sit back and mark time, it's a long game.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2017/10/31 17:36:39
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
In 2008 Ireland voted in a referendum to not back the Lisbon treaty. That wasn't good enough for the EU so the Irish had to vote again in 2009 and potentially again until they got it 'right'.
In 2015 Greece rejected austerity in the referendum, in 2016 it happened anyway due to EU pressure.
As I've recently explained in the UK Politics thread, that claim is a blatant lie; the parts of the Lisbon Treaty that Ireland took exception to when voting it down was adressed in the Seville Declaration and the Irish electorate was presented with a modified version of the Lisbon treaty that reflected these changes. It wasn't "voting again" on the same issue, the EU compromised and made concessions to the Irish electorate.
The 2016 bailout of Greece wasn't forcing Greece to do anything, either. That was Greece asking the EU to dig them out of a hole they'd made themselves. Sure, Greece was acting under what was effectively duress, but they'd placed themselves in that situation.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2017/10/31 17:48:24
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
I still feel in my naievete (Fr) that Puigedemont's midnlight flit to Ghent may not be the culmination of his amazing masterplan to convince Catalonia to vote for independence.
Well it worked, they did and he managed to get a UDI out of it.
That is as far as it goes.
A UDI is meaningless if no one recognizes it. Anyone can say "I'm no longer part of X" and it would have the same value.
Catalonia has failed at getting anyone on board. It has exhausted his voters and damaged their standing. The most evident effect has been to galvanise the usually passive unionist electorate.
We will see record participation on the December election, and that can only be good for democracy.
2017/10/31 17:49:42
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
After all, whatever Madrid thinks, one of the core values of the EU is self-determination.
With local, regional, national and EU elections, you'd really have to warp the meaning* of 'self-determination' to claim that Catalonia didn't have it.
*like the indy reps, who seem to feel that 'we don't currently like some circumstances' is equivalent.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2017/10/31 19:16:55
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
I still feel in my naievete (Fr) that Puigedemont's midnlight flit to Ghent may not be the culmination of his amazing masterplan to convince Catalonia to vote for independence.
Well it worked, they did and he managed to get a UDI out of it.
That is as far as it goes.
A UDI is meaningless if no one recognizes it. Anyone can say "I'm no longer part of X" and it would have the same value.
Catalonia has failed at getting anyone on board. It has exhausted his voters and damaged their standing. The most evident effect has been to galvanise the usually passive unionist electorate.
We will see record participation on the December election, and that can only be good for democracy.
Ahat did you expect them to achieve? You think Rajoy would let Catalonia walk away.
Success isn't measured by getting what you want NOW. Thinking like that is what ruins futures.
It's a long game and a lot of progress has been made. They got as far as UDI and faced visible oppression. Those are good cards to carry in the future.
Also to think the Catalan independence movement is exhausted, is delusional. They are complying with an external heavy handed regime applying force majeure, and will remember. Puigdemont et al hasn't threatened anyone with incarceration if they don't get their way. Madrid has, and remember article 155 is a direct suspension of democracy and the removal of a mandated government without application of a further manbdate from the Catalan people. The pro-independence movement has placed Spain in a position where it has had to soil its hands to retain control.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On another note.
What I find bemusing right now is the affront to list wasting public money as one of the major charges raised against the pro-independence leaders.
The money wasted being the cost of holding a referendum.
So wasting public money is a crime in Spain is it? It doesn't seem like it was before. Now for any European government to accuse another of squandering is fairly hypocritical, but the Spanish government, the PP led Spanish government....
It's hard to find parallels, so try this:.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/31 19:32:43
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2017/10/31 20:33:49
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
So wasting public money is a crime in Spain is it? It doesn't seem like it was before. Now for any European government to accuse another of squandering is fairly hypocritical, but the Spanish government, the PP led Spanish government....
It's hard to find parallels, so try this:.
Are you familiar with the concept of separation of powers? Governments don't prosecute, the judiciary does.
2017/10/31 20:42:34
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Just a reminder, the Dutch voted down the same EU constitution as the Irish in our own referendum, only to have its contents forced down our throats in the treaty of Maastricht a few years later anyway. EU is not about self-determination at all. Never has been.
...
Just as with the Ukraine association treaty, and come January, the referendum on our new "let's allow security services to monitor innocent citizens" law.
And politicians wonder why people like Trump or our own Geert Wilders and more recently Thierry Baudet get so many votes...
2017/10/31 20:43:30
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Are you familiar with the concept of separation of powers? Governments don't prosecute, the judiciary does.
Only if the judiciary is actually independent of the other branches. Frankly even when it is, sometimes it isn't.
When the charges are being read by politicians, not lawyers, it is hard to argue due process is being followed.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2017/10/31 22:50:10
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Are you familiar with the concept of separation of powers? Governments don't prosecute, the judiciary does.
Only if the judiciary is actually independent of the other branches. Frankly even when it is, sometimes it isn't.
When the charges are being read by politicians, not lawyers, it is hard to argue due process is being followed.
If political class force the charges and they do say give him there 20 years. They do follow through.
Well they just made a political prisoner. A mayter. A man who suffered for Catalonia. And regardless of how effective, if he was a idiot or not. That's a powerful symbol.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/31 23:08:38
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Killkrazy wrote:
and another one is the ability to accomodate separate states within a union. It's a bad example, since Scotland voted to remain in the Union, but who can doubt that the EU would have easily been able to accept Scotland as a member?
I can doubt, and so could you if you understood realpolitik.
With such a winning personality as that, I'm amazed you can extricate yourself from your no-doubt legions of friends and admirers long enough to post such eloquent counter-debate.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/31 23:10:46
2017/10/31 23:52:37
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
You should try being honest enough not to edit down what you are critiqueing to remove supporting commentary.
I made no off cuff remark, but followed through with reasoning.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2017/11/01 01:17:55
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Yodhrin wrote: A few folk on here will suspect I have a bias on this situation, and they'd be right, I firmly believe in self-determination and support the Catalan movement for independence from Spain(as I support the Kurds, and any other group who choose to peacefully self-organise and democratically demand political autonomy). But we're past the point where this can be about individual biases on semi-related political questions like Scottish independence, this is about a member of the European Union attempting to repress democracy with intimidation and violence.
Rajoy's government have used every possible method to try and prevent this referendum - arresting Catalan officials, having the Constitutional Court declare the basic idea of a referendum illegal, having other courts demand that websites be shut down and apps be removed from Google's service, suspending the finances of the Catalan parliament, even charging participants and organisers of entirely peaceful marches in support of Catalan independence with "sedition" - fething sedition for marching down a road with a sign - but they failed, the vote began this morning.
Many folk thought that would be it, that their bluff had been called, their posturing faced down, and now democracy would take its course one way or the other.
They were wrong, because the spirit of Franco is alive and well in Spain.
At some polling stations, people queuing to vote were "kettled" and then violently dispersed by the Guarda Civil(Spain's paramilitarised state police)
Others attempted to prevent their local polling stations from being raided by gathering at the entrances and sitting down to block them. This was the result:
This isn't about whether or not you support Catalonia seceeding from Spain, or indepenence movements in general - this is about whether or not you support fascism. I'd urge anyone in an EU member state to email your reps urging them to step in and condemn the Spanish state's behaviour, get on social media and add to the calls to the EU Commission and Parliament to do the same. A supposedly modern democracy in 2017 is using a paramilitary force to violently prevent a democratic vote - if we let this stand unremarked then words like democracy cease to have any real meaning.
I was in one of those voting centers that day, luckilly our grandmas had toughtness 5 . On the EU subject, EU is a states club, all those human right and fancy words mean nothing, even if there were more serious crimes comited by the state the EU would never go farther than saying some illmanered words about this subject. The geopolitical level played on the EU is beyond any regional "willi wonka" for them. The spanish state has a loong list of dictatiorial acts, hiding the belgian dicatator during nazi ocupantion and refusing to handle him to belgian authorities even when spain acomplished a "democratic state". Also creating an undecover paramilitary group that acted in a terrorist fashion in the 1980's, kiddnaping, using torture and murder (zero trials) on suposed terrorist which some of those was finally discovered that they were civilians, almost all paramilitary members (which were also policeman) were granted a pardon by the president. Also mantaining same institutions and high ranking oficials from the previous dictatorial state. Also separations of powers is a joke, all judges from the contitucional court (sumpreme court for brits) were members of one of the two big parties before beig placed into office (some of them were still members of the actual governing party although being ilegal to be in the supreme court and be member of a political party)
I could go all day with this crap but it's time to check the new minis.....
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/11/01 01:39:32
2017/11/01 01:50:39
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
We play various Warhammers when we are not engaging in rounds of political argument.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2017/11/01 11:09:08
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Orlanth wrote: It was a struggle perhaps but I did post reasons.
You should try being honest enough not to edit down what you are critiqueing to remove supporting commentary.
I made no off cuff remark, but followed through with reasoning.
My (somewhat sardonic) comment was on your style of address, not the general content of the post (as well you know). If I prefaced everything I said with 'I'm awesome and understand stuff but you aren't and don't', I wouldn't get far in life. Given that Killkrazy is a literate, intelligent poster, saying that kind of thing to him doesn't exactly help any argument you might try to make. Quite the contrary, really.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/01 11:09:39
2017/11/01 12:29:27
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Bran Dawri wrote: Just a reminder, the Dutch voted down the same EU constitution as the Irish in our own referendum, only to have its contents forced down our throats in the treaty of Maastricht a few years later anyway. EU is not about self-determination at all. Never has been.
...
Just as with the Ukraine association treaty, and come January, the referendum on our new "let's allow security services to monitor innocent citizens" law.
And politicians wonder why people like Trump or our own Geert Wilders and more recently Thierry Baudet get so many votes...
What?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2017/11/01 12:59:21
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Bran Dawri wrote: Just a reminder, the Dutch voted down the same EU constitution as the Irish in our own referendum, only to have its contents forced down our throats in the treaty of Maastricht a few years later anyway. EU is not about self-determination at all. Never has been.
...
Just as with the Ukraine association treaty, and come January, the referendum on our new "let's allow security services to monitor innocent citizens" law.
And politicians wonder why people like Trump or our own Geert Wilders and more recently Thierry Baudet get so many votes...
What?
Yeah, and if I am not mistaken they now even want to revoke the law that allowed referenda. Evidently, the Dutch government only likes democracy when people vote what the government wants them to vote. Democracy, but preferably just kratos without demos.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/01 13:00:10
