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 Ketara wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
It was a struggle perhaps but I did post reasons.

You should try being honest enough not to edit down what you are critiqueing to remove supporting commentary.

I made no off cuff remark, but followed through with reasoning.

My (somewhat sardonic) comment was on your style of address, not the general content of the post (as well you know). If I prefaced everything I said with 'I'm awesome and understand stuff but you aren't and don't', I wouldn't get far in life. Given that Killkrazy is a literate, intelligent poster, saying that kind of thing to him doesn't exactly help any argument you might try to make. Quite the contrary, really.

If you look at the context, its not 'i'm awesome you are not', but 'this is clear logic, you can understand this too'. An exortation to logical process.

You also clipped the context down, this goes back to the discussion on the Scottish indyref, I explained then how Spain would in due course veto Scottish EU membership because of the Catalan question. As with much I write on Dakka, when those opposed cannot handle the logical content there is a resort to scoffing and considering me an idiot. I don't require someone else to point out that I am literate or intelligent.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:
Just a reminder, the Dutch voted down the same EU constitution as the Irish in our own referendum, only to have its contents forced down our throats in the treaty of Maastricht a few years later anyway. EU is not about self-determination at all. Never has been.

...

Just as with the Ukraine association treaty, and come January, the referendum on our new "let's allow security services to monitor innocent citizens" law.

And politicians wonder why people like Trump or our own Geert Wilders and more recently Thierry Baudet get so many votes...

What?

Yeah, and if I am not mistaken they now even want to revoke the law that allowed referenda. Evidently, the Dutch government only likes democracy when people vote what the government wants them to vote. Democracy, but preferably just kratos without demos.

There is another even easier way to look at this and see the doctrinaire and arbitrary nature of EU politics hidden in plain sight.
Yes the EU overturn referenda et al, for some, but they also offer a free pass for select member states to openly disobey EU law.
The same attitude of rule that bullies some people oftimes shows undue favour to others, this is the case here.

Clearest example of this is the squatter camp at Calais.
Now in EU law, migrants must claim asylum in the country of entry. Now this has been in part suspended during the Syria crisis when vast numbers of people flooded into southern Europe. However the Calais problem has been ongoing a lot longer, and France is a very rich and powerful member state, and can swallow the issue.

According to EU law those Calais migrants MUST apply for EU asylum in France, however they want to get to the UK. This is partly because some nations are considered a soft touch, and while the UK no longer is, it was and the reputation remains. Second once in the UK the EU rights will be applied, in fact one of the sticking points of Brexit is getting same rights to continually apply after the UK leaves.
However during this time thee is zero pressure from Brussels for France to close the squatter camps and process the migrants.
To do so would involve making EU mandatory legislation, applicable to the French, and the EU doesn't go that far.

Allowing France to blatantly ignore EU law is the other side of the coin which has the EU bully the populace of Holland Greece or Ireland when they produce referendum results they don't like.

For the record my problem here is with Brussels not Paris, I believe the French have every right to try and take full advantage of EU membership. I also have much sympathy with their desire to pass the immigration problem along. The problem is how they get away with it, the EU should be all over them for it, but never were, are or will be.

 Orlanth wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:


SO SO glad we are leaving! Should of run to Gibraltar, we should offer him protection there, and its a act of war to invade it against a fellow Nato member!
Spain would of loved that one.

That would be a fun stunt but would be very Joffreyesque. The UK, and Gibraltar, needs to stay out of this.

Yes the EU is complicit, and Francoist songs and Nazi salutes were both seen at the unity rally according to reports today. Those pro-union attendees have every right and reason to disown them.

The interesting thing is what is behind the flight of Puigdemont to Belgium. apparently it is not an invite by the Belgian government, I suspected it was and the EU was trying to lure and contain him and then basically control his output. Instead more interestingly he has been given sanctum by Flemish separatists who have their own autonomous region, and are off script when it comes to EU's harmonious ever closer union. So rather than containment this is an opportunity to be a long term thorn in side.
Some of the Madrid government have done their nut about Puigdemont and five others asylum was guaranteed for by the Flemish separatist government. Threats of long prison terms, 30 years for Puigdemont, become jokes if the Spanish can't legally reach him, and that is on top of the price of the heavy handed approach they are using. Seems like the pro-indy group are looking for a long term living martyr strategy. Puigdemont will hold Assange like interviews from Belgium and be difficult to silence.
I wonder if anyone might thing he is due an accident?

1. Is there any Bourbon praising song exists either in France or Spain? If there's such song why ain't Unionists use ones.. owing that Bourbon monarch is on their side (Bourbons hate seccessionists as well as Non-catholic christians)
2. What happened to Carlism? Will this crisis presents one more chances for them to comback and be a 'Better Monarch' than the reigning 'Alphonsian' lineage of the Bourbon dynasty
3. What does Donald Trump says? Does he supports the 'Spanish Unionists' and if the Catalonian seccessionist chose to go war (or Catalonain war for independence) broke out. which side will he (and his US of A) be? and to which
4. Does the USA deny Puigdemont asylum?

 Lone Cat wrote:

Your questions.

Try to answer as best I can.

1. Is there any Bourbon praising song exists either in France or Spain? If there's such song why ain't Unionists use ones.. owing that Bourbon monarch is on their side (Bourbons hate seccessionists as well as Non-catholic christians)
No idea what you mean by this sorry.

2. What happened to Carlism? Will this crisis presents one more chances for them to comback and be a 'Better Monarch' than the reigning 'Alphonsian' lineage of the Bourbon dynasty
Again, don't know how to answer this.

3. What does Donald Trump says? Does he supports the 'Spanish Unionists' and if the Catalonian seccessionist chose to go war (or Catalonain war for independence) broke out. which side will he (and his US of A) be? and to which.
Donald Trump has said nothing, he is 100% self absorbed and this issue doesnt effect him personally so he doesnt care. If Trump cares about something he tweets. The US is far from leaderless, Pense if effectively president, and has been most of this year and thing work behind the scenes as usual, there just isn't a public face for the time being.. Catalonia is not recognised as an independent state by the US in statements given.

4. Does the USA deny Puigdemont asylum?
Puigdemont has not asked, and probably wouldnt easily get it. He hasnt formally asked for asylum anywhere, the offiers from within Belgium are pro-active and public to give assurances. Puigdemont says he will be in Brussels for the forseeable future but has not claimed asylum. This is true only on a technicality.

 Orlanth wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

jouso wrote:

Are you familiar with the concept of separation of powers? Governments don't prosecute, the judiciary does.

Only if the judiciary is actually independent of the other branches. Frankly even when it is, sometimes it isn't.

When the charges are being read by politicians, not lawyers, it is hard to argue due process is being followed.

Are they?

Between this, the conspiracy to reroute a civilian commercial flight and your last comments on EU, Calais, etc. I'm having a hard time picturing you without a tinfoil hat

It might be the slant given by your choice of media, but nowadays there's no excuse not to follow an event from multiple angles.

It looks like the Madrid government turned the stupidity up to 11

European arrest warrants. people in custody without bail

It's also amusing when Spain talks about not recognising rebels.

The USA is technically a rebel province. The Republic of Ireland is technically a rebel provence. Kosovo, which Spain recognised, was a rebel province. And yet, Spain recognises these 3 nations.

The Madrid government's logic is all over the place and worst of all, they have made martyrs for the Catalan indy movement.

The Swiss Navy has had more success than Rajoy's government.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It looks like the Madrid government turned the stupidity up to 11

European arrest warrants. people in custody without bail .

The bail thing has been entirely Puigdemont making. He's proven there's a flight risk.

And don't mistake the actions of a judge with those of the executive. They can still appeal and there's a chance they can get the judge revoked.

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It looks like the Madrid government turned the stupidity up to 11

European arrest warrants. people in custody without bail .

The bail thing has been entirely Puigdemont making. He's proven there's a flight risk.

And don't mistake the actions of a judge with those of the executive. They can still appeal and there's a chance they can get the judge revoked.

Well, the narrative is already out there. Why bother with facts when you can have feels?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It looks like the Madrid government turned the stupidity up to 11

European arrest warrants. people in custody without bail

It's also amusing when Spain talks about not recognising rebels.

The USA is technically a rebel province. The Republic of Ireland is technically a rebel provence. Kosovo, WHICH SPAIN DID NOT RECOGNIZE, IS a rebel province AS FAR AS SPAIN IS CONCERNED. And yet, Spain recognises these 2 nations.

The Madrid government's logic is all over the place and worst of all, they have made martyrs for the Catalan indy movement.

The Swiss Navy has had more success than Rajoy's government.

There fixed it for you. Tho looking at your prior posting history it doesn't surprise me that you made such an egregious mistake, as pointed out by Jouso in certain issues your "facts fly in the face of your feels" Now you could search online about how Preventive prison works in Spain, when and why you can go into preventive prison and how bail works. But as it will be difficult to find it in English I'll help you with that, one thing that weighs heavily in the mind of a Spanish judge when sending somebody to preventive prison is if the accused will keep committing the crime or destroy evidence during the time the investigation is going on. These persons public and notoriously have been saying they don't care about what the Spanish laws say, they are rebels as you pointed out.

But I forgot, these lawbreakers belong to an indy movement and are politicians, in the eyes of certain posters they could be ordering the killing of people on the streets (because these people never get their hands dirty with blood) and they would still be innocent victims.

M.

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It looks like the Madrid government turned the stupidity up to 11

European arrest warrants. people in custody without bail .

The bail thing has been entirely Puigdemont making. He's proven there's a flight risk.

And don't mistake the actions of a judge with those of the executive. They can still appeal and there's a chance they can get the judge revoked.

Actually you shouldn't be imprisoning people for daring to vote to hold a ballot. Its not like they went to the hills with machine guns.
Everything the pro-indy has done should have a diplomatic counter.

Also Puigdemont left the country prior to an arrest or warrant, that is entirely legal. Using legal travel as an excuse to incarcerate without bail is unethical. Besides according to Catalan news some pro-indy supporters were already imprisoned prior to the call for UDI, I dont know who or the circumstances of the arrest.

Anyway Catalans are getting a dose of Francoism right now, and memories are being stirred. I wonder if Madrid will feel the need to rig the December election.

Madrid is dancing to the Seperatists' tune.

 Miguelsan wrote:


But I forgot, these lawbreakers belong to an indy movement and are politicians, in the eyes of certain posters they could be ordering the killing of people on the streets (because these people never get their hands dirty with blood) and they would still be innocent victims.

M.

A grossly unfair comment, there is no evidence to suggest that if the pro-independence Catalans encouraged or orchestrated violence that anyone here would support that.

There have been several people critical of the Spanish government who have noted that the pro-independence movement has operated peacably.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:


But I forgot, these lawbreakers belong to an indy movement and are politicians, in the eyes of certain posters they could be ordering the killing of people on the streets (because these people never get their hands dirty with blood) and they would still be innocent victims.

M.

A grossly unfair comment, there is no evidence to suggest that if the pro-independence Catalans encouraged or orchestrated violence that anyone here would support that.

There have been several people critical of the Spanish government who have noted that the pro-independence movement has operated peacably.

https://youtu.be/arB7XSlHIzQ?t=50

Here you are, some peace for you! I started the video at the peaceful moments just for you. And that video also answers one of your questions. why the so called "Jordis" are in preventive prison? For arranging and coordinating that mob that happily destroyed three police cars while besieging the agents for almost a full day. Riot police are not usually the more diplomatic of the lot, but something that never fails to set them off is to throw stones at them, try to kick a mate on the head, charge against the police lines... all those things that the videos decrying police brutality never bothered to show, lest they give viewers a chance to think that police brutality might not have been unprovoked.

Also if Catalonians were receiving a dose of Francoism, currently the Spanish government would be encouraging Ford to move their car factory from Valencia to Barcelona like his government did with SEAT, building new highways to connect with France were the rest of the country had to do with barely decent roads, rewarding books written in Catalan (https://www.dolcacatalunya.com/2014/03/cuando-franco-premiaba-libros-en-catalan/ ) and in general pampering Catalonia and Barcelona over other regions of Spain... oooops sorry I might be going against the official line that Catalonians are the most repressed peoples in Spain since the times of Julius Caesar, disregard all the facts and keep feeling.

M.

 Miguelsan wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:


But I forgot, these lawbreakers belong to an indy movement and are politicians, in the eyes of certain posters they could be ordering the killing of people on the streets (because these people never get their hands dirty with blood) and they would still be innocent victims.

M.

A grossly unfair comment, there is no evidence to suggest that if the pro-independence Catalans encouraged or orchestrated violence that anyone here would support that.

There have been several people critical of the Spanish government who have noted that the pro-independence movement has operated peacably.

https://youtu.be/arB7XSlHIzQ?t=50

Here you are, some peace for you! I started the video at the peaceful moments just for you. And that video also answers one of your questions. why the so called "Jordis" are in preventive prison? For arranging and coordinating that mob that happily destroyed three police cars while besieging the agents for almost a full day. Riot police are not usually the more diplomatic of the lot, but something that never fails to set them off is to throw stones at them, try to kick a mate on the head, charge against the police lines... all those things that the videos decrying police brutality never bothered to show, lest they give viewers a chance to think that police brutality might not have been unprovoked.

Also if Catalonians were receiving a dose of Francoism, currently the Spanish government would be encouraging Ford to move their car factory from Valencia to Barcelona like his government did with SEAT, building new highways to connect with France were the rest of the country had to do with barely decent roads, rewarding books written in Catalan (https://www.dolcacatalunya.com/2014/03/cuando-franco-premiaba-libros-en-catalan/ ) and in general pampering Catalonia and Barcelona over other regions of Spain... oooops sorry I might be going against the official line that Catalonians are the most repressed peoples in Spain since the times of Julius Caesar, disregard all the facts and keep feeling.

M.

Yeah, but the fact that they've been clubbing people in the streets kinda negates any possible way to claim that Catelans are not oppressed.

When your people are getting beaten bloody in the streets, you can legitimately say you're being oppressed.

 Grey Templar wrote:


Yeah, but the fact that they've been clubbing people in the streets kinda negates any possible way to claim that Catelans are not oppressed.

When your people are getting beaten bloody in the streets, you can legitimately say you're being oppressed.

It would be if they were being clubbed because of their political ideas. But they weren't, there have been hundreds if not thousands of demonstrations and public displays (including at least one not-quite-a-referendum) where people haven't been beaten bloody. Separatist parties run to the elections, hold public office and openly claim their goal of establishing a new state and no one bats an eyelid as long as they do it within the law.

If I rob a bank while draped in the Catalan flag I'm still robbing a bank. A flag is not a get out of jail free card.

 Miguelsan wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It looks like the Madrid government turned the stupidity up to 11

European arrest warrants. people in custody without bail

It's also amusing when Spain talks about not recognising rebels.

The USA is technically a rebel province. The Republic of Ireland is technically a rebel provence. Kosovo, WHICH SPAIN DID NOT RECOGNIZE, IS a rebel province AS FAR AS SPAIN IS CONCERNED. And yet, Spain recognises these 2 nations.

The Madrid government's logic is all over the place and worst of all, they have made martyrs for the Catalan indy movement.

The Swiss Navy has had more success than Rajoy's government.

There fixed it for you. Tho looking at your prior posting history it doesn't surprise me that you made such an egregious mistake, as pointed out by Jouso in certain issues your "facts fly in the face of your feels" Now you could search online about how Preventive prison works in Spain, when and why you can go into preventive prison and how bail works. But as it will be difficult to find it in English I'll help you with that, one thing that weighs heavily in the mind of a Spanish judge when sending somebody to preventive prison is if the accused will keep committing the crime or destroy evidence during the time the investigation is going on. These persons public and notoriously have been saying they don't care about what the Spanish laws say, they are rebels as you pointed out.

But I forgot, these lawbreakers belong to an indy movement and are politicians, in the eyes of certain posters they could be ordering the killing of people on the streets (because these people never get their hands dirty with blood) and they would still be innocent victims.

M.

I'm happy to hold up my hand and admit that I made a mistake in confusing Ireland's recognition of Kosovo with Spain's non-recognition of Kosovo

If you're so familiar with my posting history, then you'll know that I have ALWAYS spoken out against political violence and have NEVER advocated anything more than peaceful democratic protest and voting in these types of situations. I can honestly say that there are many dakka members who know me who will back me up on this.

As for your comment, it's obvious to me that you're hiding behind the cloak of legality to excuse the anti-democratic nature of the Madrid government.

We have political prisoners in Spain, we have peaceful voters being subjected to police brutality, but you're hiding behind lawyers' talk in an attempt to sweep this under the carpet.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

jouso wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:


Yeah, but the fact that they've been clubbing people in the streets kinda negates any possible way to claim that Catelans are not oppressed.

When your people are getting beaten bloody in the streets, you can legitimately say you're being oppressed.

It would be if they were being clubbed because of their political ideas. But they weren't, there have been hundreds if not thousands of demonstrations and public displays (including at least one not-quite-a-referendum) where people haven't been beaten bloody. Separatist parties run to the elections, hold public office and openly claim their goal of establishing a new state and no one bats an eyelid as long as they do it within the law.

If I rob a bank while draped in the Catalan flag I'm still robbing a bank. A flag is not a get out of jail free card.

But nor is legality an excuse for immoral actions.

Stalin's purges were legal. The Holocaust was legal. Slavery in the Southern States of the USA was legal etc etc

Jailing Catalan indy supporters is legal and beating up protestors is all legal in Rajoy's eyes.

Doesn't make it right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Kragan wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It looks like the Madrid government turned the stupidity up to 11

European arrest warrants. people in custody without bail .

The bail thing has been entirely Puigdemont making. He's proven there's a flight risk.

And don't mistake the actions of a judge with those of the executive. They can still appeal and there's a chance they can get the judge revoked.

Well, the narrative is already out there. Why bother with facts when you can have feels?

Facts? The leader of a peaceful democratic movement is up on charges of rebellion and sedition. That's the only pertinent fact here.

Large numbers of people had 7 colours of gak kicked out of them by the Spanish police for doing nothing more than casting a vote. There's another fact for you.

What is the difference between rebellion and sedition?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
What is the difference between rebellion and sedition?

Sedition is leading a riot to prevent authorities or public servants from doing their jobs or complying with a court order, that's a textbook example.

Rebellion implies violence or the threat of violence, and the most recent example was the '81 coup. The prosecution will have a hard time proving that, most jurists (including the one who redacted the law) think it's classic overcharging and that it won't come to that.

@DINLT Would you rather live in a country where the executive (or parts of it) tell the judiciary or ignore their directions? I don't. It's extremely sad and a failure of politicians on both sides of the equation that it's come to this but if you treat your country like a banana republic you deserve banana republic treatment.

It's just emerged that the Catalan leaders set up a parallel tax authority using funds earmarked for the unemployed, social services, vulnerable families, etc. That's putting your beliefs above your citizens and it's totally unacceptable, even more so if it involves at least three self styled left parties.

https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2017-10-31/independencia-cataluna-govern-desvio-fondos-asuntos-sociales-montar-hacienda-catalana_1469836/

Also, a few bullet points from a leading political commentator.

https://twitter.com/Suanzes/status/926166822277341184

 Lone Cat wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:


SO SO glad we are leaving! Should of run to Gibraltar, we should offer him protection there, and its a act of war to invade it against a fellow Nato member!
Spain would of loved that one.

That would be a fun stunt but would be very Joffreyesque. The UK, and Gibraltar, needs to stay out of this.

Yes the EU is complicit, and Francoist songs and Nazi salutes were both seen at the unity rally according to reports today. Those pro-union attendees have every right and reason to disown them.

The interesting thing is what is behind the flight of Puigdemont to Belgium. apparently it is not an invite by the Belgian government, I suspected it was and the EU was trying to lure and contain him and then basically control his output. Instead more interestingly he has been given sanctum by Flemish separatists who have their own autonomous region, and are off script when it comes to EU's harmonious ever closer union. So rather than containment this is an opportunity to be a long term thorn in side.
Some of the Madrid government have done their nut about Puigdemont and five others asylum was guaranteed for by the Flemish separatist government. Threats of long prison terms, 30 years for Puigdemont, become jokes if the Spanish can't legally reach him, and that is on top of the price of the heavy handed approach they are using. Seems like the pro-indy group are looking for a long term living martyr strategy. Puigdemont will hold Assange like interviews from Belgium and be difficult to silence.
I wonder if anyone might thing he is due an accident?

1. Is there any Bourbon praising song exists either in France or Spain? If there's such song why ain't Unionists use ones.. owing that Bourbon monarch is on their side (Bourbons hate seccessionists as well as Non-catholic christians)

I don't think anyone in Europe gives a about Bourbons. In fact, I think most people think Bourbon is a kind of whiskey. Songs praising monarchs simply aren't a thing anymore in this era (unless you are British and you are stuck with it as your anthem). Nowadays people in Europe prefer to praise the nation as a whole. Also, the Bourbons don't hate non-catholic christians. That is also a thing of the past.

 Lone Cat wrote:
2. What happened to Carlism? Will this crisis presents one more chances for them to comback and be a 'Better Monarch' than the reigning 'Alphonsian' lineage of the Bourbon dynasty

Afaik, Carlism is pretty much dead and buried. The Carlists supported the dictatorship of Franco, and when that dictatorship came to an end the Carlists were done for. I don't think the people of Spain care at all which lineage their king belongs to. That kind of stuff was important in the Middle Ages and Early Modern period, when kings still had actual power. Now that kings now longer have any real power such dynastic issues are no longer of importance. So no. No chances for the Carlists to come back. I kinda doubt whether most Spanish people even know who the Carlist claimant is. Or rather, claimants. since the Carlists themselves can't seem to agree on it either.

 Lone Cat wrote:
3. What does Donald Trump says? Does he supports the 'Spanish Unionists' and if the Catalonian seccessionist chose to go war (or Catalonain war for independence) broke out. which side will he (and his US of A) be? and to which

Trump, like virtually all national leaders supports the Spanish government. No one wants trouble in Spain. In the unlikely event that it comes to war, the US will most likely still support the Spanish government but it will not involve itself in the actual war. Then again, Trump is unpredictable.

 Lone Cat wrote:
4. Does the USA deny Puigdemont asylum?

No. Puigdemont hasn't even asked for asylum in the US afaik.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jouso wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
What is the difference between rebellion and sedition?

Sedition is leading a riot to prevent authorities or public servants from doing their jobs or complying with a court order, that's a textbook example.

Rebellion implies violence or the threat of violence, and the most recent example was the '81 coup. The prosecution will have a hard time proving that, most jurists (including the one who redacted the law) think it's classic overcharging and that it won't come to that.

@DINLT Would you rather live in a country where the executive (or parts of it) tell the judiciary or ignore their directions? I don't. It's extremely sad and a failure of politicians on both sides of the equation that it's come to this but if you treat your country like a banana republic you deserve banana republic treatment.

It's just emerged that the Catalan leaders set up a parallel tax authority using funds earmarked for the unemployed, social services, vulnerable families, etc. That's putting your beliefs above your citizens and it's totally unacceptable, even more so if it involves at least three self styled left parties.

https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2017-10-31/independencia-cataluna-govern-desvio-fondos-asuntos-sociales-montar-hacienda-catalana_1469836/

Also, a few bullet points from a leading political commentator.

https://twitter.com/Suanzes/status/926166822277341184

I am not sure I completely understand the sequence of events here. Was it a judge that ordered the arrests and prosecution? Isn't that a very blatant violation of the separation of powers? Afaik, it it the task of the executive (in the persons of law enforcement agencies and prosecutors), to enforce laws and prosecute violations. How does it work in Spain?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

I am not sure I completely understand the sequence of events here. Was it a judge that ordered the arrests and prosecution? Isn't that a very blatant violation of the separation of powers? Afaik, it it the task of the executive (in the persons of law enforcement agencies and prosecutors), to enforce laws and prosecute violations. How does it work in Spain?

The procedure was started by a prosecutor, case brought to an examining judge who will direct the investigation, dictate preliminary measures such as pretrial detention, etc. And then will hand over the case to the court that will finally make the judgement.

That's how it works in most Civil law systems (France, etc.)

jouso wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

I am not sure I completely understand the sequence of events here. Was it a judge that ordered the arrests and prosecution? Isn't that a very blatant violation of the separation of powers? Afaik, it it the task of the executive (in the persons of law enforcement agencies and prosecutors), to enforce laws and prosecute violations. How does it work in Spain?

The procedure was started by a prosecutor, case brought to an examining judge who will direct the investigation, dictate preliminary measures such as pretrial detention, etc. And then will hand over the case to the court that will finally make the judgement.

That's how it works in most Civil law systems (France, etc.)

Ah I see. I just got confused by the comments in this thread then. How much independence does the prosecutor's office get in Spain? Can the government task him with prosecuting certain cases or demand him to drop a case?
Anyways, I don't think this is a smart move on the side of the prosecutor. Prosecuting them creates the image of oppression (even if it is perfectly legal), and making martyrs out of them is not a good idea.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:


But I forgot, these lawbreakers belong to an indy movement and are politicians, in the eyes of certain posters they could be ordering the killing of people on the streets (because these people never get their hands dirty with blood) and they would still be innocent victims.

M.

A grossly unfair comment, there is no evidence to suggest that if the pro-independence Catalans encouraged or orchestrated violence that anyone here would support that.

There have been several people critical of the Spanish government who have noted that the pro-independence movement has operated peacably.

https://youtu.be/arB7XSlHIzQ?t=50

Here you are, some peace for you! I started the video at the peaceful moments just for you. And that video also answers one of your questions. why the so called "Jordis" are in preventive prison? For arranging and coordinating that mob that happily destroyed three police cars while besieging the agents for almost a full day. Riot police are not usually the more diplomatic of the lot, but something that never fails to set them off is to throw stones at them, try to kick a mate on the head, charge against the police lines... all those things that the videos decrying police brutality never bothered to show, lest they give viewers a chance to think that police brutality might not have been unprovoked.

Also if Catalonians were receiving a dose of Francoism, currently the Spanish government would be encouraging Ford to move their car factory from Valencia to Barcelona like his government did with SEAT, building new highways to connect with France were the rest of the country had to do with barely decent roads, rewarding books written in Catalan (https://www.dolcacatalunya.com/2014/03/cuando-franco-premiaba-libros-en-catalan/ ) and in general pampering Catalonia and Barcelona over other regions of Spain... oooops sorry I might be going against the official line that Catalonians are the most repressed peoples in Spain since the times of Julius Caesar, disregard all the facts and keep feeling.

M.

Yeah, but the fact that they've been clubbing people in the streets kinda negates any possible way to claim that Catelans are not oppressed.

When your people are getting beaten bloody in the streets, you can legitimately say you're being oppressed.

Witness the oppression inherent in the system!

 Kilkrazy wrote:
What is the difference between rebellion and sedition?

Printing a pamphlet decrying the injustices of the ruling party and encouraging people to resist is sedition. Leading an armed group to seize a military installation is rebellion.

The non-politicised, 1000% independent, Spanish judiciary, issues European arrest warrant for ex-Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/03/european-arrest-warrant-issued-for-ex-catalan-leader-carles-puigdemont

Nothing to see here. Move along. This was not politically motivated

Two days ago, the Madrid government reneged on an agreement that it would not suspend the Barcelona government if it did not declare independence and agreed to new local elections next month. Madrid then proceeded with suspension, and Catalonia duly proceeded with declaration – though with no mention of implementation. Madrid immediately arrested those Catalan politicians (and officials) it could find, on charges of rebellion and treason.

source: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/03/catalonia-spain-basque-breton-bavaria-europe

Treason, sedition, conspiracy and the like are by nature political labels as they revolve around someone trying to attack the State. Declaring your own independent nation based on the result of a referendum with no binding power and loads of irregularities is almost textbook sedition. The courts would be derelict in their duty if they didn't at least charge Puigdemont.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that even if Catalonia becomes independent following the vote in December they should STILL try him for sedition, because he's guilty as sin. The man's essentially performed a coup d'état by seizing powers he had no right to in declaring Catalonia independent. If Catalonia wishes to be independent then so be it, but Puigdemont clearly has no respect for the democratic process and, as such, must go.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Treason, sedition, conspiracy and the like are by nature political labels as they revolve around someone trying to attack the State. Declaring your own independent nation based on the result of a referendum with no binding power and loads of irregularities is almost textbook sedition. The courts would be derelict in their duty if they didn't at least charge Puigdemont.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that even if Catalonia becomes independent following the vote in December they should STILL try him for sedition, because he's guilty as sin. The man's essentially performed a coup d'état by seizing powers he had no right to in declaring Catalonia independent. If Catalonia wishes to be independent then so be it, but Puigdemont clearly has no respect for the democratic process and, as such, must go.

The Catalans elected him when he ran on a platform that he would do pretty much exactly what he did. It was his entire platform. So where's the failure to respect democracy here?

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Treason, sedition, conspiracy and the like are by nature political labels as they revolve around someone trying to attack the State. Declaring your own independent nation based on the result of a referendum with no binding power and loads of irregularities is almost textbook sedition. The courts would be derelict in their duty if they didn't at least charge Puigdemont.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that even if Catalonia becomes independent following the vote in December they should STILL try him for sedition, because he's guilty as sin. The man's essentially performed a coup d'état by seizing powers he had no right to in declaring Catalonia independent. If Catalonia wishes to be independent then so be it, but Puigdemont clearly has no respect for the democratic process and, as such, must go.

The Catalans elected him when he ran on a platform that he would do pretty much exactly what he did. It was his entire platform. So where's the failure to respect democracy here?

The fact that he ignored the Catalan constitution because it was inconvenient to follow?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


The fact that he ignored the Catalan constitution because it was inconvenient to follow?

As far as I've read the only Constitution he ignored was Spain's, as Catalonia has no Constitution. In fact, the law that the Spanish courts suspended called for the creation of a Catatonian Constitution.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Treason, sedition, conspiracy and the like are by nature political labels as they revolve around someone trying to attack the State. Declaring your own independent nation based on the result of a referendum with no binding power and loads of irregularities is almost textbook sedition. The courts would be derelict in their duty if they didn't at least charge Puigdemont.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that even if Catalonia becomes independent following the vote in December they should STILL try him for sedition, because he's guilty as sin. The man's essentially performed a coup d'état by seizing powers he had no right to in declaring Catalonia independent. If Catalonia wishes to be independent then so be it, but Puigdemont clearly has no respect for the democratic process and, as such, must go.

The Catalans elected him when he ran on a platform that he would do pretty much exactly what he did. It was his entire platform. So where's the failure to respect democracy here?

He ran on a platform that would declare Independence if they got a seat AND a vote majority.

They didn't.

Also they passed a new electoral law without the needed majority (according to the Catalan Statute, which is their Constitution), they didn't follow it either.

The list is really long. A lot of it is in earlier posts.

jouso wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Treason, sedition, conspiracy and the like are by nature political labels as they revolve around someone trying to attack the State. Declaring your own independent nation based on the result of a referendum with no binding power and loads of irregularities is almost textbook sedition. The courts would be derelict in their duty if they didn't at least charge Puigdemont.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that even if Catalonia becomes independent following the vote in December they should STILL try him for sedition, because he's guilty as sin. The man's essentially performed a coup d'état by seizing powers he had no right to in declaring Catalonia independent. If Catalonia wishes to be independent then so be it, but Puigdemont clearly has no respect for the democratic process and, as such, must go.

The Catalans elected him when he ran on a platform that he would do pretty much exactly what he did. It was his entire platform. So where's the failure to respect democracy here?

He ran on a platform that would declare Independence if they got a seat AND a vote majority.

They didn't.

Also they passed a new electoral law without the needed majority (according to the Catalan Statute, which is their Constitution), they didn't follow it either.

The list is really long. A lot of it is in earlier posts.

Yeah, but I think it was also mentioned that the Catalan statute isn't really a fair piece of law and that independence movements have the tendency to not follow laws because laws usually prohibit independence. The statute was modified by the Spanish Constitutional Court to such an extent that a peaceful, democratic way to independence was virtually impossible for the Catalans (along with a whole bunch of other restrictions on autonomy, language and referenda). The statute is a Spanish law. You can't expect a Catalan separatist, who wants independence, to obey it. When some of the republics of the USSR declared independence in 1991, they also did not follow their own constitutions, which ultimately were tools of the Soviet government to keep them in line. Independence in most states is impossible to achieve through legal means. That is why expecting separatists to follow legal means and criticising them on that account is beating a dead horse. Of course they are not going to follow the laws! It only becomes possible for them to follow laws if those laws offer them a fair way to achieve independence, such as in Scotland or Quebec.
I am not saying that not following laws is good, but it is just what separatists do. Pointing that out is like pointing out to a thief that he is breaking the law. Of course he is breaking the law, he is a thief! Of course Puigdemont is guilty, just as guilty as George Washington, Boris Yeltsin, Mahatma Gandhi and almost every other independence movement leader in history. If you are dealing with an independence movement, you know beforehand they are going to ignore any law that is inconvenient to them. That is why engaging with them on legal terms is ultimately meaningless. In the end, you will have to deal with them either by giving them what they want or by trying to rob them of their power base, which in the sad reality of our world is mostly done through force, but which can also be done through economic or political means. Reminding them that they are violating the law on the other hand will just make them laugh, and trying to enforce laws and arresting them will just make them appear oppressed to those sympathetic to their cause, which will increase their power base.

TL;DR Separatists don't care about legality or elections or treaties or anything like that. All they care about is independence, and they will use whatever means they think give them the best chance of achieving that goal. All independence movements throughout history have done that. That is why pointing out that they are violating laws, their mandate, their election promises (wait, all politicians violate that one) is beating a dead horse. You know beforehand they will be going to do that, because they are separatists, and that is just what separatists do.

jouso wrote:

which is their Constitution

Not according to them. In fact, it's revision in the Spanish courts was one of the things that pushed this whole thing forward.