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I think i'm pretty much all-in on replacing onagers of all flavours with helverins. Lose the str and ap but they have the sweet spot of -2ap, anything with an invulnerable save makes anything above -3 worthless. and those helverin auto cannons are 4d3 and 3 damage each! Plus if I really need to kill something thats flying there's a knight strategm to give them +1 to hit flyers. Thats without even considering that they move 14 and fire without penalty, or with the right tradition, advance at no penalty. And they're pretty much guaranteed to be in range of anything I want to shoot at. 1 more wound and equivalent saves for 174 pts each. On an impossibly good day 1 of them could pull off 36 damage, which beats out a neutron laser and icarus onager and at greater range.
lash92 wrote: But we don´t get Household Traditions in an Superheavy Aux. right? So wouldn´t a Krast Gallant be better, for the 1CP stratagem with exploding 6s in CQC.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr. Funktastic wrote: So what do you guys feel like is the best variant of knight to run with a Stygies VIII Battalion gunline with infiltrating Dragoons and 2 Helverins?
Did you already had the opportunity for some testing?
Not yet, my new IK stuff doesn't get in till Wednesday unfortunately. I did post the list I'm planning on running in the army lists forum. On paper it's pretty balanced at least!
Elite - 306 18x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
House Raven Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 502
Lord of War - 502 Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod
Total: 2000 points 13 CP
Currently leaning toward the Crusader list. I've always considered adding a single Mortar team to get the fourth order from my Commanders. Plus Master of Ordnance on three Basilisks is actually quite cost-efficient. I lose one Fulgurite, but I get the Vanguard upgrade for my Skitarii, which lets them run around for a turn before they are mowed down by some anti-horde weapon.
If I’m determined to make Taranis work. What’s the knight for me?
Maybe a gallant or warden with the mark of the omnissiah and 3 CP for in our darkest hour and a CP reroll, that's what I'm doing at least.
Cool thanks for the input
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also cheers Suzuteo. I’m leaning towards either Crusader or Gallant myself. Might just flip a coin haha
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/11 15:47:25
Octovol wrote: I think i'm pretty much all-in on replacing onagers of all flavours with helverins. Lose the str and ap but they have the sweet spot of -2ap, anything with an invulnerable save makes anything above -3 worthless. and those helverin auto cannons are 4d3 and 3 damage each! Plus if I really need to kill something thats flying there's a knight strategm to give them +1 to hit flyers. Thats without even considering that they move 14 and fire without penalty, or with the right tradition, advance at no penalty. And they're pretty much guaranteed to be in range of anything I want to shoot at. 1 more wound and equivalent saves for 174 pts each. On an impossibly good day 1 of them could pull off 36 damage, which beats out a neutron laser and icarus onager and at greater range.
Actualy, the Skyreaper Protocols stratagem gives a re-roll failed hit rolls not +1 hit.
MORTAN helverins are pretty boss. You can give them IGNORE_MODIFIERS for 1CP and then give that one REROLL_V_FLY for another 1CP. That is a pretty consistently dead T6 flier.
Personally I think GW hit the mark with the Armigers. Either variant is perfectly viable but their viability heavily depends on the rest of your list. Just wish they would clarify if they get CP or not... Silly to include examples that seemingly contradict an ability unless that was how it was intended in the first place.
Well yes most likely in a tournament environment you might consider the two lists you mentioned suzuteo and I value mobility and options greatly in lists. But. We talking about the part mainly of
A) you use 3 basilisks that are stationary arty worse than Cawl star as I see it
B) if we can't use soup then with solo ad mech Robots onagers is a must. Icarus onagers.
C) If we ending up in 1750 lists or can't use 2* battalion etc then those Wrath of Mars Robots control half the table with shooting.
D) I only insist or try to test it it's because you asked the same question I did enemy chaff. Playing the knight lists in my mind since I don't have extensive table testing yet with it I asked the same question . You got a great option with infiltration priests Dragoons mobility with vanguard move move on soldiers and knight etc. I don't argue and I love the strat but using Cawl with 4 Robots and two icarus just becomes a leathal combination.
Sooner or later enemy lists will focus on some of your plan! You won't be able to use all stratagems priests need 3 to dual hit!!! What I say is of you go vs a hordish army with 2-3 planes like a typical Ork list then we getting stressed . No need to dual priests Dragoons already killing etc and somewhat the basilisk besides los hitting are not part of the missing antihorde now anti air.
Taking a strong and buff gallant cheap to supplement Dragoons priests and add him to an ad mech list missing exactly that a tough melee unit then depending on tour requirements taking guard won't be same effective as taking those superb antihorde reroll everything Cawl star. Even if you need a spearhead. So I'd consider still a list pure mech with a gallant more often than we might like!
lash92 wrote: Sure but this seems like overspecialization to me ^^
Helverins are specialized T6 killers in general.
@Yoda79
A) Yes, but it's only 354 points to get 3x Basilisk and the Master of Ordnance. Plus the MT doctrine, and you have roll two discard one shots, exploding 6s, reroll 1s to hit. Very efficient for the cost. Cawlstar needs 790 points and a lot more support to defend it, especially SM Scouts.
B) I think that list would be a Mixed AdMech Battalion, BA Battalion, and Guard Battalion. The lists I posted are more an experiment for Knights.
C) Yeah. If we go to 1750 points, AdMech gets a lot stronger. Infantry and cheap characters become more important, and we have great infantry and great anti-infantry and anti-characters.
D) Right. I would actually need to make Electro-Priests to test this thing. My list of stuff to paint grows monthly. These business trips to Japan are not helping.
Yoda79 wrote: Well yes most likely in a tournament environment you might consider the two lists you mentioned suzuteo and I value mobility and options greatly in lists. But. We talking about the part mainly of
A) you use 3 basilisks that are stationary arty worse than Cawl star as I see it
B) if we can't use soup then with solo ad mech Robots onagers is a must. Icarus onagers.
C) If we ending up in 1750 lists or can't use 2* battalion etc then those Wrath of Mars Robots control half the table with shooting.
D) I only insist or try to test it it's because you asked the same question I did enemy chaff. Playing the knight lists in my mind since I don't have extensive table testing yet with it I asked the same question . You got a great option with infiltration priests Dragoons mobility with vanguard move move on soldiers and knight etc. I don't argue and I love the strat but using Cawl with 4 Robots and two icarus just becomes a leathal combination.
Sooner or later enemy lists will focus on some of your plan! You won't be able to use all stratagems priests need 3 to dual hit!!! What I say is of you go vs a hordish army with 2-3 planes like a typical Ork list then we getting stressed . No need to dual priests Dragoons already killing etc and somewhat the basilisk besides los hitting are not part of the missing antihorde now anti air.
Taking a strong and buff gallant cheap to supplement Dragoons priests and add him to an ad mech list missing exactly that a tough melee unit then depending on tour requirements taking guard won't be same effective as taking those superb antihorde reroll everything Cawl star. Even if you need a spearhead. So I'd consider still a list pure mech with a gallant more often than we might like!
C) Yeah. If we go to 1750 points, AdMech gets a lot stronger. Infantry and cheap characters become more important, and we have great infantry and great anti-infantry and anti-characters.
Just out of curiosity: Would your list change drastically if we go 1750 or would you still play the same concept, i.e. Stygies Infiltration bomb.
I'm trying to build a cac mechanicus list: we have one of the best melee units in the game, the dragoons and with the aid of a Gallant i think a pure melee list is viable:
A Gallant with two armiger cannot be ignored by the enemy and they buy you time to arrive with the dragoons without spending CP.
Kataphron breachers, supported by a dominus with Prime Hermeticon are not bad: for 120 points you have 9 wounds, R5 and 9 attacks with fo 6.
- I'm building a dark mechanicus theme army, someone can suggest me a decent proxy for corpuscarii electropriest?
Chaos Marines since the beginning - For The Dark Gods
lash92 wrote: Just out of curiosity: Would your list change drastically if we go 1750 or would you still play the same concept, i.e. Stygies Infiltration bomb.
The infiltration bomb itself is unproven. But if I were to run a Knight, the way to do it is to run one and to kill everything that threatens it, which is what a bomb is good for.
At 1750 points, I would probably go back to Cawlstar. Knights are great at higher point counts, but not as efficient at lower point counts.
brugner8 wrote: I'm trying to build a cac mechanicus list: we have one of the best melee units in the game, the dragoons and with the aid of a Gallant i think a pure melee list is viable:
A Gallant with two armiger cannot be ignored by the enemy and they buy you time to arrive with the dragoons without spending CP.
Kataphron breachers, supported by a dominus with Prime Hermeticon are not bad: for 120 points you have 9 wounds, R5 and 9 attacks with fo 6.
- I'm building a dark mechanicus theme army, someone can suggest me a decent proxy for corpuscarii electropriest?
You could probably use the normal models and nurgle or tzeench them up for those gods, not too sure what to do with slaanesh or khorne though.
Weaknesses of the above? Better ditching infiltrators and swapping helverins for Icarus crawlers or would the above be quite cool?
Seems valid but if we remove entirely a third detachment we are not taking advantage of the infltration. If we are to decide in 1750 two detachments then Cawl is a big if. We take Cawl if we got 4+ robots and 2+* onagers else it's not really worth it. And yes if we go Mars infiltrators are an option still not the best competitive option. Why
A) infiltrators are an option for pure Mars if we take stygies no point !! Infiltrators are super against chaff and use wrath of Mars. That said no point taking Robots and infiltrators so no.
B) we don't want to remove the new faq benefits. So infiltration is number one the list building has prios. And for me a pure ad mech or ad mech and knights list has this prio.
2 battalions ≥ 1 battalion +1 super heavy ≥1 battalion.
And for strat
Infiltration ≥ melee (Dragoons - priests ) ≥gun line
For knights
Durability ≥ guns ≥ melee
So taking these under consideration or at least trying to explain my thinking I'd try to make for 1750 only 2 detachments something like
Add household char relics and more gear per choise switch vanguard for gauntlet etc! Every limitation we are adding changes the build drastically! Even with this list not having 2 battalions is an issue but since we getting a knight super heavy we are becoming elitist list. You will auto win list low in antiarmor that's why I'd risk with not having 2 battalions = less CP. Still a v mobile list you can mix max as you like maybe go for two wardens or full errants and Icarus carapce bla bla it's up to you. But I believe with 11 CP and good mobility will Ork better than any Robot line. Elite armies in smaller points get an advantage since many lists might not be prepared with enough antiarmor for your extreme mech lists. You d also not care for poison lists etc etc. That's what I'd take atm.
For three detachments again I can't ignore Suzuteo. He is right about the guard detachment and as I explained if we decide between one ad mech detachment then stygies we take first.
So I d recap!
Most likely if you take suzuteo list battalion battalion aux then guard basilisks Dragoons and priests then I'd recommend crusader ! List can be found from suzuteo originally posted.
I'd consider if you got a limitation to take more ad mech and no guard or you got no basilisks etc try the list I posted with 2 ad mech battalions and warden.
So turns out im havin a quite large game on saturday. Im facing a 2500 pt death guard + nurgle daemons (including a great unclean one) army.
My list will contain cawl, 3 dakkabots, 1 neutronager and some screeners accompanied by guiliman and 2 armigers+1 gallant. - the gallant (save relic + 1cp for 4++; house krast, for the +2hits on 6 stratagem), accompanied by the armiggers will be the center of my army and charge his marines asap. - dakkabots will clean the 40 zombiesoak block. - robs will charge, accompanied by 10 vanguards and get objectives near the center of the field.
now my main fear is his board control. how should i counter his nurglings all over the place? i have to get rid of them asap, since they will score almost all the objectives.
what would you suggest? shall i editmy list? get celestine instead of roboute? or leave those 2 at home and get a assassination vanguard (culexus!) ? or take a knight crusader with avenger and rfb?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/12 13:56:42
Since we are talking more often about 1750 points now, I need your help guys. We got a new tournament system in Germany which restricts list building (unfortunaly) quite a bit and I´m really struggeling to find a list concept which can work under these conditions.
Here the restrictions:
- max 2 detachments, one needs to be a Batallion
- max 2 times the same unit, exception Standard and Transport, where you can take 5 times the same unit
- max 1 LoW - Some restrictions (regarding Units with the Keyword Vehicle, Monster, Battlesuit) which results in no more than 2 robots per unit and no more than 3 Dragoons per unit.
The missions are pretty ITC like.
So yeah that are pretty hefty restrictions for AdMech imo and I´m really struggeling to find a suitable list idea. I thought about:
- Mini Cawlstar (2x2 Robots + 2x Crawler) which leaves about 800 pts for other stuff
- Stygies Alpha strike bomb (3 Dragoons, 20 priest, maybe even 2x robots with fist + Tech Priest with Prime Hermeticon for full reroll to hit
- Graia mass infantry + Crawlers / Dragoon for +LD - Stygies Gunline + Dragoon + Knight
brugner8 wrote: I'm trying to build a cac mechanicus list: we have one of the best melee units in the game, the dragoons and with the aid of a Gallant i think a pure melee list is viable:
A Gallant with two armiger cannot be ignored by the enemy and they buy you time to arrive with the dragoons without spending CP.
Kataphron breachers, supported by a dominus with Prime Hermeticon are not bad: for 120 points you have 9 wounds, R5 and 9 attacks with fo 6.
- I'm building a dark mechanicus theme army, someone can suggest me a decent proxy for corpuscarii electropriest?
Dragoons and Gallant do the same thing though. Except the Dragoons are arguably more durable with -2 to hit and also have infiltration. I would much rather take Electro-Priests, which are infiltrating mortal wounds on a literal stick, or MAYBE Infiltrators, who have built-in Deep Strike. I would invest in better shooting instead, like Kastelans or Crawlers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/12 15:07:12
im having a hard time choosing between 2 dragoons and 2 warglaives. did any1 use the new warglaive? ist it any viable/ comparable to 2 dragoons entering combat?
Ah I think I had an idea myself:
Maybe I should run an Stygies Batallion + Blood Angels Batallion.
So what Blangels units did you find useful for souping? 2x Captain with Hammer and 3x5 Scouts for sure, but everything else?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Do you have other Dragoons in your army? They really shine when taken in bigger units (4 or 6) because of the +2 to hit stratagem.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/12 20:20:22
Automatically Appended Next Post: Do you have other Dragoons in your army? They really shine when taken in bigger units (4 or 6) because of the +2 to hit stratagem.
Well no, and i guess i have to rune warglaives to get households + free character in my knight lance.
lash92 wrote: Some quick points regarding your list:
1) Drop the Dominus and add an Enginseer, you don´t need Dominus rerolls when you got Cawl.
- the dominus should accompany the breachers
2) Cut the Breachers, they are crap ^^
i need some cheap bodies to catch objectives and do some dmg to those flying dg helicopters
Then Kataphrons are the worst possible choice for you. What Breachers can do is to sit ahead of shooting castle and tank a bit, while contributing to shooting (especially if they are in range of Cawl rerolls). They're not cheap, they are not more mobile than Skitarii (and has only D3 advance), and while they can put a punch they need to stick to Cawl/TPD for reroll. BS4+ is a headache. They come in small numbers, so any Objective Secured troop will take objective from them by sheer numbders of models.
If you want a mobile objective-contesting infantry with a punch then Vanguards with plasmas. 5 man squad with even 2 plasmas is 68 pts while Kataphrons are 120.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/12 22:59:29
Even Skitarii or Guardsmen are more durable than Breachers in terms of wounds. Lol...
I would go with Rangers if you intend to park them somewhere. Vanguard if you want to move around and shoot. Guardsmen are best overall though. Double the bodies and Move Move Move.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lash92 wrote: Ah I think I had an idea myself:
Maybe I should run an Stygies Batallion + Blood Angels Batallion.
So what Blangels units did you find useful for souping? 2x Captain with Hammer and 3x5 Scouts for sure, but everything else?
In order of diminishing point efficiency:
Slamguinius + Laertes + 15x Death Company (12x Bolter/Chainsword, 3x Thunder Hammer)
Slamguinius + Mephiston
Slamguinius + Captain (Vitae or Hammer of Baal)
Use 2x Captain if you need them to be anti-vehicle. Otherwise, Laertes is great for consistency, especially if you bring 15x Death Company. Mephiston is nice because he would give you a Psychic phase and can operate entirely independently of the Captain.
For the top two, you can add a Techmarine with Beamer on foot (my preference) or in a bike holding Vitae. (For Laertes, you can do a Supreme Command detachment instead of a Battalion.)
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/06/13 03:34:53
Chaos Marines since the beginning - For The Dark Gods 
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