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U02dah4 wrote: Even then if your agripinaa and 1 model survives your good
Yea thats alright but if you loose 5 models your leadership is now 2 (3 with a broad spectrum nearby) so you will have to spend 2CP to auto pass morale and a further 3CP to regen them back up to full. Its a totally different play style to the Ryza plasma destroyers so we cant really compare them as equals in a sense.
If we look at averages, you get 21 bs3 rerolling 1's shots with 6 plasma destroyers. That is 13 dead GEQ, 12 dead MEQ, 6 dead kataphron equivalents with Aquisition at All Costs and enhanced bionics, 20.42 damage to a t6/7 3+ target, 16.33 wounds to a t8 4++ target.
Comparing that 30 grav shots with reroll 1's to hit and wound (vs vehicles) at bs 3. 16 GEQ dead, 13 MEQ dead, 2.28 dead kataphron equivalents, 12.96 damage vs a t6/7/8 3+ save monster, 15.12 vs vehicle versions and 9.07 damage to a t8 4++ invun knight.
Now if we make this a castellan with a 3++, the plasma destroyers do 13.61 damage (goes to 17.01 with a further +1 to hit) vs the grav destroyers 6.05 at bs 3 and 7.56 at bs2. So the Agripinaa grav destroyers only beats the Ryza plasma destroyers vs GEQ (by 3 extra kills) and MEQ (1 extra kill) whilst loosing out vs every other target. Then if we factor in the heavy gravs 30" range vs the plasmas 36" there is an additional benefit towards the plasma again. Points wise you are paying 51pts per heavy grav and phophor blaster destroyer to the 48pts of the plasma culverin and phosphor blaster destroyer.
I just cant see myself using Agripinaa grav destroyers or plasma in that case whilst Ryza is still king of that RAW damage output. They dont rely on MWs like Mars to do there damage, and they can get to bs2 rerolling 1's for there shots. Whilst yeah Agents of Vect can stop plasma specialists, they can also stop Fresh Converts which would be a bigger kick in the gonades than stopping a +1 to wound and damage.
Just my 2 cents.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/13 15:08:51
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
Im curious why suddenly everyone seems to be talkibg about infiltrators over something like corpuscari priests? Similar price, similar output but can threaten more targets with its shooting (s5) as lets be honest getting a 9" charge is situational so the cc stats arnt too relevent. is the infiltrator talk simply due to its deepstrike ability?
The problem with ryza is it does little for the rest of your brigade if your running one. Almost any other forgeworld dogma offers more advantage to the rest. Aggripinaa makes all our multishooting units painfull to charge includeing the kataphrons
Ryza is probably the strongest vs knights but that strength isn't equal against all lists. For many units a ceiling effect makes little difference between the 2 (if you overkill a russ its still dead no matter how much you overkill it.)
I would run 5 grav flamers with 2 robots for the 2+bs rerolling 1's to hit and eye of xi lexum against any vehicle/knight army (once it gets in targeting range 18" +9.5" per turn.) This buffs every aggripinaa unit on the field which makes up for the kataphron damage deficit because my ballistarii/neutron lasers will pick up the slack
Also plasma struggle more vs stacked -1
the ability to regenerate a half dead unit is huge it forces your enemy to focuss it plasma if i kill a couple of models your effectiveness halves agripinaa i come back at full strength unless you finish it.
As to priest? Infiltrators deepstrike and getting the unit you want corpuscarii cant adjust easily to board state t2 and 2W + benefitting from cover is often better than 5++5+++ on a 1W model. Theres nothing wrong with corpuscarii but they are just not quite as effective i ran them at a tourney in November they were probably the choice i regretted most
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/13 14:46:49
Thanks, priests/infiltrators are very comparable. Its a trade vs spending cp to deepstrike priests and do more damage vs no cp spent to get them there potentially killing a bit less. The saves is an issue and im not a math guru to work it out lol. You have definatly helped me work out a direction.
@deffrekka :
Very good point regarding moral, haven't even realised that they have such low LD. I mean wtf they are Servitors and can't even think really for themthemselves.
But this just means that we have to maximize the blow which our Kataphrons can deal, which means going Ryza.
@ U02DAH4 :
I think that you are overestimating the value of +5 Overwatch. I mean sure it's not bad, but there are just so so many ways a good player can circumvent it... Charge from out of LOS, charge a week unit nearby and use your pile in / consolidate to tie them up, charge first with a unit which could tank this or use something which can negate overwatch totally (hello captain Smash :p)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Envii wrote: Thanks, priests/infiltrators are very comparable. Its a trade vs spending cp to deepstrike priests and do more damage vs no cp spent to get them there potentially killing a bit less. The saves is an issue and im not a math guru to work it out lol. You have definatly helped me work out a direction.
Problem is you can't deepstrike them as Mars and use Wrath of Mars ln them. (You could buy a Drill, but this would make them very expensive as a MW delivery method)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/13 15:10:41
No but for every 3 shots your having an expectancy of1 hit if your firing 20-50 shots its a few. Wont stop a strong assault unit but it will cause some damage as to the rest thats about positioning given that we autocover we dont have to be in ruins and can keep away from walls or use hoplites as barriers (i dont mind if they get charged its funny)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/13 15:28:19
lash92 wrote: @deffrekka :
Very good point regarding moral, haven't even realised that they have such low LD. I mean wtf they are Servitors and can't even think really for themthemselves.
But this just means that we have to maximize the blow which our Kataphrons can deal, which means going Ryza.
@ U02DAH4 :
I think that you are overestimating the value of +5 Overwatch. I mean sure it's not bad, but there are just so so many ways a good player can circumvent it... Charge from out of LOS, charge a week unit nearby and use your pile in / consolidate to tie them up, charge first with a unit which could tank this or use something which can negate overwatch totally (hello captain Smash :p)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Envii wrote: Thanks, priests/infiltrators are very comparable. Its a trade vs spending cp to deepstrike priests and do more damage vs no cp spent to get them there potentially killing a bit less. The saves is an issue and im not a math guru to work it out lol. You have definatly helped me work out a direction.
Problem is you can't deepstrike them as Mars and use Wrath of Mars ln them. (You could buy a Drill, but this would make them very expensive as a MW delivery method)
If they could use a Tech-Priests LD when they are nearby that would make them that much better. I think because people dont use them this edition they have forgotten their stats! They have only gotten better due to the the Servitor Maniple and potential +2 to hit combination. And i fully agree with you about the overwatch on a 5+. People can ignore it just as easily as they can ignore Ryza's reroll 1s to hit in CC. Thats why i view both dogmas as equals as both can be negated fairly easily.
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
Because their ideas work great for buffing 1 unit which is awesome but the trade off is every backfield ranger/balistarii/neutronager not getting a -1 from say stygies.
Sure those strats are good buffs to 1 unit but thats not worth a loss to the others.
Now in a battalion your impacting 2 other troops which are cheap and expendable and 2hq's which probably wont benefit to much anyway graia stygies and agripinaa do nothing for them So the impact on your army is minimal.
In a brigade thats 3 hq 5 troop 3 elites 3 fa and 3 Hv units minimum which is a huge number of units to miss a substantial buff.
I would argue given our CP demards I want a brigade minimum
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/13 16:17:59
What I dislike about mixed AdMech for a big detachment is lack of synergies. You'd need a Ryza Dominus to reroll the 1s of your Kataphrons and to repair them, and so this Dominus exist only for your Kataphrons, which dampens their efficiency as you have to include 90 pts of Dominus to assist them. Then you'd have to have more units as Ryza to make the Dominus more worthwhile. If you're facing -1/-2/-3 armies you'll regret not having the Dominus at least. You could do a Patrol of 1 Dominus + 6 Kataphrons, and the two other detachments Stygies and Mars to have their boni if you want to. You'll keep your Stygies Rangers, and the WoM Infiltrators.
I would avoid Smash Captains right now because we don't have many other complementary assault units. And furthermore, a lot of Soup/Knights lists are preparing for Smash Captains. They definitely are still strong, but I think we have the tools within the faction to pursue a distinctly AdMech shooting strategy. (Basically, the army divides into 2-3 components and the Guardsmen form a flexible screen as they get into position and/or MMM for objectives.)
If you run Grav, Agripinaa is definitely the best choice. But it's a hammer in search of a nail in my opinion. MEQs and TEQs have structural weaknesses in 8E that make them easy pickings for most armies. Ironically, a lack of preparation for TEQs is precisely why Don's DG list did so well at BAO.
So with the RYZA/MARS list you have 3 threats: 2x1 Icarus 1x6 dakkabots 1x6 plasma destroyers
Each of these basically cost as much as a knight and are as important as a knight. They all rely on being able to shoot. Then the list has some support characters, 25 skitarii, and 40 catachan. I have had games where I spent two turns with nothing able to be shot thanks to ITC terrain and character rules. As an admech gunline, I think your list is in fact as much dakka as an admech gunline could do and there isn't any room for improvements as is. But damn did my shooting knight list get burned in games in ITC terrain in a few games. I actually have all the models in your list on my shelf except for straken and the priest, but maybe I could kitbash them.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/13 19:07:09
Aaranis wrote: What I dislike about mixed AdMech for a big detachment is lack of synergies. You'd need a Ryza Dominus to reroll the 1s of your Kataphrons and to repair them, and so this Dominus exist only for your Kataphrons, which dampens their efficiency as you have to include 90 pts of Dominus to assist them. Then you'd have to have more units as Ryza to make the Dominus more worthwhile. If you're facing -1/-2/-3 armies you'll regret not having the Dominus at least. You could do a Patrol of 1 Dominus + 6 Kataphrons, and the two other detachments Stygies and Mars to have their boni if you want to. You'll keep your Stygies Rangers, and the WoM Infiltrators.
This.
A Dominus alone for 92 points is just waaay to expensive if he is just going to buff one or two units rather than half your army. Not to mention that repairing things can become a massive headache. Enginseers are wasted points if they don't have vehicles to repair.
Also -1 to hit from Stygies is just that damn good, especially when combined with shroudpsalm and other defensive buffs (Crawler inv. save, Dragoons going to -2 to hit at 12"+, Kastelan Aegis during turn 1 if you don't go first and others). It's one of the main reasons we can outgun other ranged shooting armies.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/12/13 20:13:35
Dark it was, and dire of form
the beast that laid them low
Hrothgar's sharpened frost-forged blade
to deal a fatal blow
he stalked and hunted day and night
and came upon it's lair
With sword and shield Hrothgar fought
and earned the name of slayer
Aaranis wrote: What I dislike about mixed AdMech for a big detachment is lack of synergies. You'd need a Ryza Dominus to reroll the 1s of your Kataphrons and to repair them, and so this Dominus exist only for your Kataphrons, which dampens their efficiency as you have to include 90 pts of Dominus to assist them. Then you'd have to have more units as Ryza to make the Dominus more worthwhile. If you're facing -1/-2/-3 armies you'll regret not having the Dominus at least. You could do a Patrol of 1 Dominus + 6 Kataphrons, and the two other detachments Stygies and Mars to have their boni if you want to. You'll keep your Stygies Rangers, and the WoM Infiltrators.
In all this excitement, I forgot about Dominus's gear! How much does Eradicator Ray cost now? Is it 8 or 10?
Also, I wanted to point out a thing about plasma. It might be possible that, given how it seems to work in the Ork codex, dying on a 1 with overcharged will happen on an unmodified roll. If that happens, hurrah we got buffed against -1 to hit armies, but downside is that we can't shoot safe anymore with +1 to Hit, making rerolls that much more important. Now I don't know if GW will do that and when (likely next FAQ) but if it does we have to think about it.
Another gripe I have with plasma culverins (not that I hate them mind you) is the random number of shots. Nothing worse than popping your über-strats to fire 3 shots. At least grav is reliable on that point, I don't understand why it costs more than plasma though, same price should be right.
If I stick to my plan of going 4 Fistelans, grav could do the anti-elite role of the Dakkastelans while being less static. Just a theory as of now but my Lucius + Agripinaa list shouldn't include Dakkastelans. Onagers and Fistelans should do the anti-tank role well enough.
I upgraded the Rangers in this refinement. I actually am really digging the Graia Vanguard + Catachan concept. The Vanguard disrupt psykers, absorb Overwatch with their superior Shroudpsalm saves, and have a -1T aura. Combined with Catachan +1S doctrine, you're hitting other GEQs on 2+. A good example of AdMech+Guard outperforming straight Guard.
Need to think of a better way to use my spare 30 points though. It's currently invested in a spare Platoon Commander and Cognis Heavy Stubbers. If I cut the Mortars too, I have 55 points to play with. Maybe 5x Plasma Guns? Haha.
With 6D6, I think the chance of getting a totally dud volley is not too high.
Suzuteo wrote: Thanks. Guess I cannot fit a second Battalion in. Needs 135 points. I actually only have 126 to spare. So... back to 5x10 Catachans, I guess.
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1080 Cohort Cybernetica (-1 CP)
HQ - 190 1x Belisarius Cawl
Heavy Support - 890 6x Kastelan Robot - 18x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
I upgraded the Rangers in this refinement. I actually am really digging the Graia Vanguard + Catachan concept. The Vanguard disrupt psykers, absorb Overwatch with their superior Shroudpsalm saves, and have a -1T aura. Combined with Catachan +1S doctrine, you're hitting other GEQs on 2+. A good example of AdMech+Guard outperforming straight Guard.
Need to think of a better way to use my spare 30 points though. It's currently invested in a spare Platoon Commander and Cognis Heavy Stubbers. If I cut the Mortars too, I have 55 points to play with. Maybe 5x Plasma Guns? Haha.
With 6D6, I think the chance of getting a totally dud volley is not too high.
I just rolled 6 sets of 6d6 and got the following results: 19, 20, 24, 22, 22 and 19, so an average of 21 exactly. I think grav is priced so high as you are getting a flat number of shots that dont kill the bearer on a 1 and is still ap 3. Its most likely they combined the pts of a heavy bolter and a plasma gun to get the costs.
Imagine how awesome destroyers would look and be if they could also take plasma calivers instead of the cognis flamer or phosphor blaster. That would be crazy! Just rolled another set of 6d6 and got: 23, 21, 22, 25, 22 and 16 for another average of 21.5 shots a turn. From 12 attempts thats quite accurate.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/13 21:44:40
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
Aaranis wrote: What I dislike about mixed AdMech for a big detachment is lack of synergies. You'd need a Ryza Dominus to reroll the 1s of your Kataphrons and to repair them, and so this Dominus exist only for your Kataphrons, which dampens their efficiency as you have to include 90 pts of Dominus to assist them. Then you'd have to have more units as Ryza to make the Dominus more worthwhile. If you're facing -1/-2/-3 armies you'll regret not having the Dominus at least. You could do a Patrol of 1 Dominus + 6 Kataphrons, and the two other detachments Stygies and Mars to have their boni if you want to. You'll keep your Stygies Rangers, and the WoM Infiltrators.
This.
A Dominus alone for 92 points is just waaay to expensive if he is just going to buff one or two units rather than half your army. Not to mention that repairing things can become a massive headache. Enginseers are wasted points if they don't have vehicles to repair.
Also -1 to hit from Stygies is just that damn good, especially when combined with shroudpsalm and other defensive buffs (Crawler inv. save, Dragoons going to -2 to hit at 12"+, Kastelan Aegis during turn 1 if you don't go first and others). It's one of the main reasons we can outgun other ranged shooting armies.
In a pure gunline but with 3 units of hoplites an enginseer with the omniscient mask is priceless. Or the eye of xi lexum. Unlike the dominous they are cheap enough to go with your frontline.
So you have a probability of around 90% to get at least 16 shots.
What that distribution drives home is that 45% of the time you will be doing less shots than you expect and that bottom 20% reduce your expected damage output a fair amount. However top 15% don't do the same because once your target is dead its dead.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/13 22:50:16
Just saying, even if you rolled 2s on all of those shots, Plasma would still deal more damage on average to T6+ than Grav. That +1 to wound and +1 to damage is quite something.
30 S5 DD3 vs T6-9, 3+: 30*1/3*2 = 20
12 S8 D3 vs T6-7, 3+: 12*5/6*3 = 30
12 S8 D3 vs T8, 3+: 12*2/3*3 = 24
12 S8 D3 vs T9-15, 3+: 12*1/2*3 = 18
All other factors being the same.
EDIT: Ugh, keep making mistakes with basic arithmetic. Lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I just realized that there is a really weird loophole in The Dagger of Tu'sakh. Not sure if any of you have ever encountered any discussion of it.
Here is the text of its rules:
During deployment, you can set up the bearer and one INFANTRY unit from your army behind enemy lines instead of placing them on the battlefield. The infantry unit must have the same <REGIMENT> keyword as the bearer if the bearer has one. At the end of any of your Movement phases these units can launch their daring attack – set them up within 3" of each other, anywhere on the battlefield that is wholly within 6" of any battlefield edge and more than 9" away from any enemy models.
Here is what I am thinking:
1) Characters like Enginseers and Commissars do not have a <Regiment> keyword.
2) If the character has no <Regiment> keyword, then the restriction is eliminated.
3) The relic has no army restriction, nor is there is generalized rule for relics to be restricted.
Does this mean Enginseers can outflank a unit of Kataphrons?!
This feels like Scout moving Imperial Bunkers all over again.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2018/12/14 10:17:32
Well my grav will be 2+ to hit and sometimes will reroll 1's to w vs a big target
Now damage is capped at 26 (i did once encount a porphyrion but normally you wont) so that 30=26 (as you killed your target (24 does most of the time too)
Now run those same figures vs an ork horde or a double-1 aeldari
Now also run the figures without the ryza bonus because I wont have it in a brigade
Also 12x 0.97x0.666x0.5x3 =11.6 thats 2+ to hit rerolling 1's +1 to w and damage vs a t8 knight with RIS and 3 dam not 24
Grav 30x0.97x0.3333x0.5x2= 9.6 or 11.1 with the eye of xi
I get that it is a really strong option vs high T however not that much difference on a bad roll for shots. So more variability.
Against the stacked -1 aeldari lists and the ork horde plasma is less optimal.
So across the 3 list types its close but the second you going full brigade having a stygies type-1 on everything else is going to out way the extra damage on the one knight list you play in the tourney (assuming 16% of lists are IK)
Also faq'd the dagger in the codex AMfaq the dagger can now only be given to an infantry officer commisars and enginseers arnt officers
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/12/14 10:55:38
How does everyone feel about the Implacable Determination WLT for Guard? I noticed also that it can give max advance to ANY unit, including your AdMech units. Given Kastelans can now become assault, these are 14" advance Robots with BS5+ shooting? Alternative, you can do insane 24" MMM with Guard. If you go second, you can run up to an objective and steal it with ObSec.
But yeah, I am trying to figure out my WLT and relic. I don't really want an AdMech relic; my list has no melee, so Mask is out; Raiment or Pimp Cane seem to be the only good options, but less than ideal. At the same time, I do want a 5+ CP recycler.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/14 11:31:16
what i just created to show the difference between grav and plasma. The only time grav wins is vs infantry where it gets around 2-3 extra kills, but with pure damage dealt plasma always wins. Note, vs knights plasma specialists increases the damage dealt by 100% the original value where as grav with the eye deals and extra 16.66% precent.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/12/14 12:39:34
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
vs veq grav mostly kills its target plasma you can probably split fire to two monster same
vs knight neither kills target. But plasma does more.
Plasma does have much higher varience though
Double vehicle damage on one unit that might get wiped T1 just doesnt seem worth it when the eye will boost my kastellan my onagers and my balistarii or stygies will protect them all
Really im comparing top row plasma vs 1st/second row grav in a brigade and there really isnt that much in it Grav wins on every count with the eye and loses against knights without. VEQ and monster are tied at killed it.
How does everyone feel about the Implacable Determination WLT for Guard? I noticed also that it can give max advance to ANY unit, including your AdMech units. Given Kastelans can now become assault, these are 14" advance Robots with BS5+ shooting? Alternative, you can do insane 24" MMM with Guard. If you go second, you can run up to an objective and steal it with ObSec.
But yeah, I am trying to figure out my WLT and relic. I don't really want an AdMech relic; my list has no melee, so Mask is out; Raiment or Pimp Cane seem to be the only good options, but less than ideal. At the same time, I do want a 5+ CP recycler.
I think it very much depends on your list grand strategist is still strong. Given we will burn CP. Old grudges is good if you have a lot of AM vehicles. For Adm in considering the agripinaa -1 dam or the CP regen trait.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/14 13:43:26
