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yeah i'd find it kinda weird for a weapon in apoc to randomly be longer reach. Attacks, strengths, or special rules would change but range? why range?

 Suzuteo wrote:
From Apocalypse:


Man, I wish we had that rule instead of a selectively applied 6+ invulnerable save...

@Octovol
I think Apocalypse has different rules?

Very different rules, to the point that they'll be like entirely different games. Far less dice rolled. Most dice I've seen a single unit shoot in the previews is maybe 10,.

 Suzuteo wrote:
@Hulksmash
Interesting. I think we have a bunch of options now. Not sure if Mortars + Icarus Crawlers + Auto-Striders is the best way about it. It seems to over-focus on light vehicles and flying units.

Besides, Dakkabots and Mortars complement one another. We used to run Guardsmen Mortars, Basilisks, and Wyverns before the ITC faction rules change. Dakkabots are great at converting CP to wounds on a variety of targets. Their weakness is their LOS. Mortars can apply a lot of pressure to enemies trying to avoid them, especially Eldar bikes, and they don't need CP. Dragoons complete the weapon triangle for mechanized AdMech by posing an assault threat.

So there are three ways to apply pressure. LOS, non-LOS, assault. If you want to go Stygies and be much more mobile, then maybe Las-striders, Mortars, Dragoons?

I don't find the bots to be that important if I have 3 of each of the others. And the list still has a decent number of Mars strat units that rock 29+ shots. And it still has kataphrons for decent anti-tank. I've also found them decent cc threats now that people are starting to get a feel for them. I'm looking something like;

Cawl
Manipulus
2xEnginseer
3x4 Servitors
3x10 Rangers w/Omni
2x10 Vanguard
7 Breachers
3xAutocannon Ironstrider
3xIcarus Dunecrawlers
3xNew Tanks

And I might go farther and drop to 2 Battalions and a Spearhead. In which I drop the breachers and maybe the ironstriders for 2-4 transports depending on pts and maybe one or two of the fw infantry units.

 Suzuteo wrote:
From Apocalypse:


Man, I wish we had that rule instead of a selectively applied 6+ invulnerable save...

Is it that selectively applied? Aren’t servitors the only codex unit without a 6++ or better?

Are saves still all done on D6 or are they done on D12 in apoc? Rerolls of 1 are obviously a lot worse on a D12

@Hulksmash
Oh, you're doing a Brigade. That makes a lot more sense now.

Breachers have not been very strong fighting for me. They miss a lot. They are pretty solid shooting though, especially against <T7 vehicles. Which is why I have the Las-striders and the Dakkabots, both of which still perform great against T7-8.

I can't convince myself to go back to Crawlers after seeing how good Las-striders perform in certain matchups.

@Pomguo
The new tanks might not have one. But who knows? In any case, we have Shroudpsalm, so I rarely fall back on the invulnerable save. (I do intentionally take it for my Dakkabots while rooted though.)

Not sure about the difference in dice. D12 would be a huge difference.>

 Suzuteo wrote:
@Hulksmash
Oh, you're doing a Brigade. That makes a lot more sense now.

Breachers have not been very strong fighting for me. They miff a lot. They are pretty solid shooting though, especially against <T7 vehicles. Which is why I have the Las-striders and the Dakkabots, both of which still perform great against T7-8.

I can't convince myself to go back to Crawlers after seeing how good Las-striders perform in certain matchups.

@Pomguo
The new tanks might not have one. But who knows? In any case, we have Shroudpsalm, so I rarely fall back on the invulnerable save.

Not sure about the difference in dice. D12 would be a huge difference.>

I think that against large blasts, it's a d6 to save but against a small blasts it's a d12 save.

Im not really convinced by the Skorpius at all.... its not the tank killer that they keep trying to sell to us. With the Ferrumite Cannon youve basically got a 3 shot stormstrike missile but its nothing really compared to the twin lascannons on a Balistarii or the Neutron on the Onager. The Disruptor Missile Launcher again isnt amazing, this tank seems to be designed to tackle light vehicles like Venoms, Buggies, Sentinels as its going to struggle vs T7 and definitely T8. The Bellerous Energy Launcher seems the more optimal pick but again the weapon isnt the best, the 3d3 shots, ignoring line of sight is nice but the ap -1 lets it down, it really should ignore cover as well or something....

Now the toughness of both vehicles, that really surprised me! Toughness 6 and Toughness 7...... hmmmm not liking that one bit, the transport better be below 100pts or im giving it a miss for sure. With the popularity of str 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 weapons out there they dont have any means to bypass that and are more susceptible to these lower end mid strength weapons that are quite common.

Back to the Skorpius, it needs to be a solid 110-120pts for me to even consider it at the moment, you can colour me not impressed in the slightest! Now if it can fire twice like the Repulsor Executioner, then we are talking about a new kettle of fish and i will immediately take back what i said. But until we get more of a picture of its rules/pts/synergies im giving it a wide birth as i cant see its value over the Onager and the Balistarii

The Ferum Tankettes (going to call Disintegrators "tankettes" from now on) are pretty mediocre. It's going to be like the Beamer Crawler.

How good the Missile Launchers and Mortars are will depend entirely on the points. But asssuming they are average, they both fill useful niches. The Missile Launchers are Taurox Battlecannons with an extra point of AP-1. And Mars Mortar Tankettes can be compared to Cadian Wyverns; they do a bit less to Guardsmen due to lower volume, but are superior against Tacticals and Bikes.

Three Mortar Tankettes output 9D3 shots, which means 9-27. That pastes a Guard unit on average and kills most members of a Tactical or a third of a Genestealer unit (which is important because they are usually deployed within ruins). Indeed, the fact that it can shoot into magic boxes or stop Engineers are why they are so necessary for ITC.

The Riders need to be 80-100. The Tankettes perhaps 100-120. Unless they get Grinding Advance, as you've said.

A full Ad mech army pure is now a lot closer. We got good tools now With this new vehicle. Options and proper tactics.

I know we missing a lot yet but still its a viable like never before and all that with one transport los shooting . I hope we see more soon but for now i can see pure lists aready.

If it is open topped we talking about 3x in list.

It has weakness low range caryy troops so it will be focused down. but still even if only alive for one or two rounds should be enough for our lists. HOpe we get a good set of rules points etc.
This low shooting just made guard obsolete in our lists in my eyes.

 Suzuteo wrote:
The Ferum Tankettes (going to call Disintegrators "tankettes" from now on) are pretty mediocre. It's going to be like the Beamer Crawler.

How good the Missile Launchers and Mortars are will depend entirely on the points. But asssuming they are average, they both fill useful niches. The Missile Launchers are Taurox Battlecannons with an extra point of AP-1. And Mars Mortar Tankettes can be compared to Cadian Wyverns; they do a bit less to Guardsmen due to lower volume, but are superior against Tacticals and Bikes.

Three Mortar Tankettes output 9D3 shots, which means 9-27. That pastes a Guard unit on average and kills most members of a Tactical or a third of a Genestealer unit (which is important because they are usually deployed within ruins). Indeed, the fact that it can shoot into magic boxes or stop Engineers are why they are so necessary for ITC.

The Riders need to be 80-100. The Tankettes perhaps 100-120. Unless they get Grinding Advance, as you've said.

I see value in the Belleros Engery Cannon but the Ferrum not so much when we already have Plasma Destroyers, Twin Cognis Lascannon Balistarii and the Neutron Onager. Being able to target things without LoS is a very crucial thing to have especially to the later parts of the game where depleted units tend to hide around objectives. The Ferrumite Cannon doesnt even feel like an Admech weapon, its a battlecannon pretty much, it need and extra something to make it an option over other AT units in our book, like a way to cause MWs or even bypass invun saves. Suddenly thats a valuable weapon that can be labelled as a tank hunter, but its current iteration isnt much to be feared and i would always go for the Belleros over it. As for the missile, if its free great! if im paying quite a few pts on it i would prefer not to even have them. Its got a bit of Repulsor going on, too many guns that differ from each others role that you will most likely have to pay for that unwanted flexibility.... If they were krak/stormstrike equivalents then hell yeah! Now we are talking, but they are pretty much Daedalus Rockets / Autocannons which i could do without personally. I tend to like my units to have a focus on a dedicated role and not try branch out to do all fields rather poorly.

I dunno i could be wrong and the rest of the vehicles rules could blow me away, but as it stands it just ignores the move and shoot heavy penalty which is not amazing.... Leman Russes, Fire Prisms, Repulsor Executioners all get to fire twice when they move half distance or less with the turret weapon, im really hoping this has the same ability....

Also this whole mobile fire thing they keep bragging on about isnt really as it seems, it only moves 4" quicker than its counterpart; the Onager, but its not like youll mostly use that extra 4" unless you are seriously trying to deploy further back. If you do push it to its max speed every turn you leaving your repairs and your buffs so its very counter intuitive to the rest of the battleline! And as far as we no it doesnt fly so it will still be restricted by terrain, models and whatever else can pen it in like our Onagers. Next if you need to move to get into range, weve already got the Manipulus to help us out in that department so its not really as mobile as youd think, I wouldnt be gunning it every turn Tokyo drifting it round obstacles, itll be with my other units that enhance it and it will be deployed in an optimal firing line already or move ever so slightly to get into LoS, and if your running the Belleros.... why are you moving to get LoS in the first place ahahaha!

I was excited for these 2 vehicles but not so much atm sadly

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah i'd find it kinda weird for a weapon in apoc to randomly be longer reach. Attacks, strengths, or special rules would change but range? why range?

Working theory, at least on my end, is because of it being an Indirect Fire weapon.

The only other Indirect Fire weapon we've seen is the Deathstrike Missile but that isn't really a "weapon" that gets fired all the time.

So is it confirmed no ‘fly’ keyword?

Cause if so my enthusiasm has tanked. And I’m a pretty optimistic chap usually.

I still have an unassembled drill so that might be my next project

TBH if i played ITC i would definetly use the Drills with or without priests. I like how they can screen its guns etc.

and the Troops Hoplites. I just not invest in models i wont be playing a lot. The Drill is super good with various options.
And the list Nanavati used is not a joke even without the infiltration. Keep in mind he used the Drills as a castle. And as suzuteo said the Balistarii as main guns with priests lucius for horde killers and .... Not a simple lists.

The Apocalypse rules for Duneriders:

This unit can transport 10 Secutarii Infantry or <Forge World> Infantry models. It cannot transport Belisarius Cawl, Kataphron Breacher, or Kataphron Destroyer units.

Kastelans are classed as vehicles, so they can't go in them.

@deffreka
I think having extra S7 LOS shooting is useful for baiting out things like Lightning Reflexes. I already spread things out early on with my Knight. These tankettes are the same sort of unit with their diverse shooting profile. Think about it: 9x Heavy Stubbers, 3x Battle Cannons, 3x Mortars for roughly the same points you would expect from a Knight; T7 with 36W to boot.

I don't think these tankettes are tank destroyers. That's what our Las-striders already are.

Fingers crossed for Grinding Advance as well. Creeping Advance? Lol. Question about the Hover Platform rule though: Does it mean we can advance and shoot with -1 to hit? I am confused by the wording a bit, since Heavy weapons cannot shoot at all after advancing.

Actually, I fully intend to use these tanks as screens, just like how I use Crawlers as screens. T7 w/ 12W is quite a bit to chew through. And I bet they have a large physical profile.

@Kanluwen
Awh. Any open-topped?

EDIT: Doesn't seem like Apocalypse has that level of granularity for rules. So we wait.

Pre-order price seems to be $75. Yeesh. If the rules team doesn't slam dunk this, I doubt they're going to see good sales.

I'm planning on 3 at the moment. Two transports and a tank.

I have a lot of Skitarii, including 3 units of Secutarii Peltasts. I feel like these tanks will be a great way to get Secutarii Peltasts around the board to cause mischief.

 Suzuteo wrote:
@deffreka
I think having extra S7 LOS shooting is useful for baiting out things like Lightning Reflexes. I already spread things out early on with my Knight. These tankettes are the same sort of unit with their diverse shooting profile. Think about it: 9x Heavy Stubbers, 3x Battle Cannons, 3x Mortars for roughly the same points you would expect from a Knight; T7 with 36W to boot.

I don't think these tankettes are tank destroyers. That's what our Las-striders already are.

Fingers crossed for Grinding Advance as well. Creeping Advance? Lol. Question about the Hover Platform rule though: Does it mean we can advance and shoot with -1 to hit? I am confused by the wording a bit, since Heavy weapons cannot shoot at all after advancing.

Actually, I fully intend to use these tanks as screens, just like how I use Crawlers as screens. T7 w/ 12W is quite a bit to chew through. And I bet they have a large physical profile.

@Kanluwen
Awh. Any open-topped?

EDIT: Doesn't seem like Apocalypse has that level of granularity for rules. So we wait.

Pre-order price seems to be $75. Yeesh. If the rules team doesn't slam dunk this, I doubt they're going to see good sales.

I had a look at the Drukhari raider since its the only open topped vehicle that I could think of and open topped is listed as an ability on its data sheet, that says to me that the dunerider is not going to be open topped.

The Apocalypse datasheets are available, and the Dunerider has this transport capacity there:

This unit can transport 10 Secutarii Infantry or <Forge World> Infantry models. It cannot transport Belisarius Cawl, Kataphron Breacher or Kataphron Destroyer unit.

Edit: nm, missed the post above

Okay. So the transport is not open-topped. It does not fly. It cannot transport Kataphrons, but it can transport Electro-Priests, Secutarii, and Skitarii.

What the hell is the rules team thinking? How is this preferable to a Drill? 4" of extra movement, but no deep strike?

Tankette better have some nice extra rules.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Okay. So the transport is not open-topped. It does not fly. It cannot transport Kataphrons, but it can transport Electro-Priests, Secutarii, and Skitarii.

What the hell is the rules team thinking? How is this preferable to a Drill? 4" of extra movement, but no deep strike?

Tankette better have some nice extra rules.

Oh well, I'll save some $$$ then.

I'm not exceedingly worried over the "lack" of open-topped or Fly.
I mean, the Kastelans don't have their Repulsor Fields instead having a 5+ save...by comparison the Skorpius has a 6+(!) and an Onager has a 5+.

I really didn't expect a "Fly" on this thing. I'm kinda/sorta expecting a bespoke rule allowing for it to move over intervening units as though it has Fly though, and I'm thinking the Assault Ramp might get a bespoked rule.

I played in a local RTT this weekend with ITC missions. I brought a lot of things I didn't have a lot of experience with (breachers, hoplites, TP Manipulus), and ended up going 0-3, though they were all decently close matches. I wanted to share my experiences, and ask a couple of questions of the fine folks here.
My list:

Match results
This was my first set of games in a while, and I made plenty of mistakes. Here are my reflections on how units performed.

The Good:
1. Both units of electropriests: they got kills, and soaked a lot of firepower, I wanted bigger units of both by the end.
2. Tech priest manipulus: I loved the flexibility he brought, and the +1 to charge and +6” both came in handy throughout the matches. He was decently durable, only dying to dedicated power - railguns/draigo/trygons
The Bad:
1. Breachers: I took breachers on the advice of many in this tread. While they were moderately durable, they contributed virtually nothing. Hitting on 4+ a and wounding most vehicles on 5+ just doesn’t cut it. They also gave up easy Gangbusters points in every match. I would have preferred 20 more vanguard instead.
2. Servitor Maniple: Plasma hitting on 2+ is amazing when it works, but it is very transparent, and vulnerable to counter play (they really only worked in 1/3 matches). They also drain a lot of CPs.
The Ugly:
1. Hoplites: I didn’t have high expectations, but in every game they died before they could charge anything. Not having Dogmas hurts them a lot.

Questions for folks:
1. What am I missing about Breachers? I felt like I needed more specialist tools, not generalist units.
2. Given my experience with cover and LoS, Secutarii Peltasts are intriguing. Anyone have experience with them? I have high hopes for the Skorpius variants.
Thanks!

 Suzuteo wrote:
@deffreka
I think having extra S7 LOS shooting is useful for baiting out things like Lightning Reflexes. I already spread things out early on with my Knight. These tankettes are the same sort of unit with their diverse shooting profile. Think about it: 9x Heavy Stubbers, 3x Battle Cannons, 3x Mortars for roughly the same points you would expect from a Knight; T7 with 36W to boot.

I don't think these tankettes are tank destroyers. That's what our Las-striders already are.

Fingers crossed for Grinding Advance as well. Creeping Advance? Lol. Question about the Hover Platform rule though: Does it mean we can advance and shoot with -1 to hit? I am confused by the wording a bit, since Heavy weapons cannot shoot at all after advancing.

Actually, I fully intend to use these tanks as screens, just like how I use Crawlers as screens. T7 w/ 12W is quite a bit to chew through. And I bet they have a large physical profile.

@Kanluwen
Awh. Any open-topped?

EDIT: Doesn't seem like Apocalypse has that level of granularity for rules. So we wait.

Pre-order price seems to be $75. Yeesh. If the rules team doesn't slam dunk this, I doubt they're going to see good sales.

I mean its all well and good comparing it to a Knight but you usually pay extra for these type of units that have multipurpose weaponry just because they can do a bit of everything. These things compete in a very crowded Heavy Support section (kind of feels like Orkz where you want a lot of heavies) so your going to have to sacrifice something to get these in and the reality is that these things cost more than an Onager or 2 Balistarii (if we arent be too optimistic about the unit cost which im not) for not really any better shooting vs AV and no better survivability. I for one arent looking for more heavy stubbers in my list as i already have way too much anti infantry and i dont really care for some random hand fulls of str 7 shots as well that cant even hurt a Wave Serpent / Hemlock much let alone another Knight, PBC or any other tough pts efficient armour, we were all expecting a bit more from these things.

If we are just deciding to take these on the Belleros then i dont know what to say, its not exactly mind blowing and the only way for me to even have a Skorpius in my list is going to be trading out an Onager or a few Dragoons which id rather not. Really what they needed to do with this tank is to dedicate it to a certain role like when they described it as a Tank Destroyer. They could of added a weird and whackey rule that when a shot causes damage, enemy vehicles are stunned (like -1 to hit or something) You could slap some Peltasts in a Drill if you wanted some LoS ignoring shots to target pesky hidden infantry! ill hold any further Judgement until is see pts, the full datasheet and if anything else comes out with them (cough codex hopefully cough). Other than that my hype for these vehicles have taken a nose dive haha, and usually im quite hopeful for Admech releases

So from the Apoc Datasheets:

1. It looks like Grav is back against vehicles: SAT of a 5+...
2. Kataphrons & Kastellans will probably make up most of our lists.
3. Both the Icarus & Neutron have nice profiles - they might suck vs. infantry though.

Another thing hinted in the apoc sheet is that the dunerider will be able to carry secutarii or Forgeworld infantry except for Cawl and Kataphrons, so no magic bunker ability. However, there's no mention of sicarians taking up two slots so who knows, maybe it can carry 10 ruststalkers or something.

Also, no mentions of a fly, grinding advance, or fall back and shoot style of ability. At first glance it appears this is basically a regular tank minus the treads. As for cost, the disintegrator is 8ts, same as an Onager, with the transport being 7, same as a unit of 2 robots. Granted these are essentially power level pts, it seems a bit odd that robots got so much cheaper, so ittis hard to glean exactly how much the transport is. However, this hints that perhaps the tank will be identical in cost to an Onager, I.E. 100-120pts. Maybe.

Another weird thing for apoc is they let you choose forgeworlds, yet Forgeworlds grant no noticable benefit aside from Mars let's you take Cawl. Perhaps it's a sign that books for factions are coming out at some point or perhaps all it's there to do is ensure a guard player isn't running straken and Creed in the same detachment, not sure.

Edit:Ninja's, my bad

It's also possible that the <Forge World> and whatnot will be something that gets its rules defined in the Apocalypse book and/or datacards that come in the box.

Most interesting part, IMO, of the Disintegrator is that it costs +1 to add the Energy Cannon bumping that version to more than an Onager with any of its loadouts.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's also possible that the <Forge World> and whatnot will be something that gets its rules defined in the Apocalypse book and/or datacards that come in the box.

Most interesting part, IMO, of the Disintegrator is that it costs +1 to add the Energy Cannon bumping that version to more than an Onager with any of its loadouts.

It looks like this will affect command assets:

https://imgur.com/a/lYYpPrQ

I'm holding off opinion until I see the stats on the transport. Either I'll grab 2-3 of them or I'll keep using my drills. That said I'm still all in on the tank as I think it fills quite a few holes the new meta has opened up.

I also wouldn't get to worked up about rules in Apoc vs. rules in 40k. We're already seeing differences and I expect there will be more.

Did anyone else catch that Emanatus Force Fields in the Apoc Datasheets are back to being a +1 to your saves when they overlap instead of "reroll 1s"?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Did anyone else catch that Emanatus Force Fields in the Apoc Datasheets are back to being a +1 to your saves when they overlap instead of "reroll 1s"?

The apoc datasheets are almost unrecognisable as our army at this point. You cant even compare them. So far my opinion is they've made apocalypse quicker simply by removing t and ap, reducing all dmg and wounds by 80% and stripping all the flavourful rules out. I’ll definitely play at least one game but even our repair ability didnt escape intact and yet more rules are consigned to limited use card abilities. Doesnt excite me at all.

I’m also flabbergasted what im trading my T7 for ontne dunerider...im already trading 2 heavy weapons out for transport capacity, what have i traded for that reduced toughness? The apoc datasheets are exactly the same for both skorpius models, the only different are the weapons and transport capacity.