Switch Theme:

Tactica Mechanicus - FAQ Out  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wulfey wrote:

EDIT3: I think there is a dark horse unit combo in the admech codex. Now that I have 4 dragoon models, I am thinking about the possibilities of a Stygies 4 lascannon ballistari unit. Hear me out. The +2 to hit strategem is seriously good on a big units of walkers. +2 to hit on 8 lascannons is no joke and ballistari are 50 point platforms for lascannons, and points spent on lascannons (45) are never wasted. This unit will draw mad fire from your opponent, but it has the bonus that it can move and shoot when you use the strategem. It won't provide the mortal wound generation of the wrath of mars robots, but man will it remove pesky transports with ease. I wanted my dragoons to do serious work, but the proliferation of mega tau overwatch, autohitting super flamers from plagecrawls, lord of skulls godtier overwatch, and ynnari double-move charges made them semi-useless in 5 of 6 games. Sure, they absorbed fire, but ballistari could absorb comparable fire at reduced point efficiency. On top of this the 4 stack of ballistari could full BS overwatch with a strategm, which is hilarious. Talk about a lame screen to charge.

Nope, not gonna be the first to try it. but i see your logic here and commend you for thinking out side the box. will be interested in how it works.

seriously what would have been wrong with giving the Ballistarii -1 to hit as well... i mean sure with stygies that's 75-95 point models running around with high movement and -2 to hit. but that wouldn't have been broken... not when the rest of the dex was shat on.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/24 21:06:05


011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
Made in gr
Stalwart Tribune





Greece

Spoiler:
Wulfey wrote:
gendoikari87 wrote:
Your assuming a lot of moving. Plasma has a 36" range same as kastelans and no body is crying over them gluing themselves to the board


This is a good assumption at a tournament. Tactics don't matter in a match where all your enemies models are in range and in clear line of sight. The games where you have ot struggle for LOS are the games that count.

EDIT: on all this talk about leman russes. I am not convinced they are better than onagers. Guard has some access to rerolls to hit, but not that many. And Russ's don't have invul saves so they will draw -4 fire like crazy. Assuming 4s rerolling 1s you are looking at 58% chance to hit against a -0 target, and like 38% chance to hit a target with -1 to hit. That is some sad stuff. Assuming they shoot twice they only barely manage to keep up with an onager. And the Onager is a lot more mobile and has better repair options and invul saves. The only Russ that really does damage in its points range is the Plasma one on overcharge. It competes with the damage output of a comparably pointed Hellblaster squad in rapid fire range or the much cheaper plasmacide squad in deep strike rapid fire range. But again, 3+ with no invul sucks. And the damage profile on these things are super hard to mitigate without admech + to hit and ignore table strategems. I would take a 6 stack of onagers and Cawl over a 5 stack of leman russes + Pask any day of the week. If you deployed right then the russes wouldn't be able to all shoot without losing their double shoot.

Even further, they still haven't fixed the 'reroll ANY' language on Cawl. That makes neutronagers accurate against -1 to be hit models in a way that no other list can be accurate. Not seeing all the leman russ love.

Also, I was at socal open. The leman russ spam lists got peed on. People just shot them from afar or tied them up in combat. If you want to run tanks, run a baneblade.
EDIT2: even then, a baneblade with a few lascannons is like 500 points. That is as much as a knight. It shoots better than the knight and with a strategem it can fight kinda okay, but it has no invul save. So every lascannon shot at your baneblade will only be saved in a 6+.

EDIT3: I think there is a dark horse unit combo in the admech codex. Now that I have 4 dragoon models, I am thinking about the possibilities of a Stygies 4 lascannon ballistari unit. Hear me out. The +2 to hit strategem is seriously good on a big units of walkers. +2 to hit on 8 lascannons is no joke and ballistari are 50 point platforms for lascannons, and points spent on lascannons (45) are never wasted. This unit will draw mad fire from your opponent, but it has the bonus that it can move and shoot when you use the strategem. It won't provide the mortal wound generation of the wrath of mars robots, but man will it remove pesky transports with ease. I wanted my dragoons to do serious work, but the proliferation of mega tau overwatch, autohitting super flamers from plagecrawls, lord of skulls godtier overwatch, and ynnari double-move charges made them semi-useless in 5 of 6 games. Sure, they absorbed fire, but ballistari could absorb comparable fire at reduced point efficiency. On top of this the 4 stack of ballistari could full BS overwatch with a strategm, which is hilarious. Talk about a lame screen to charge.

EDIT4: I think I found my next tournament list. And I can conveniently make it out of the models I already have with a little conversion.

8CP, 2000 points, 5+/5+ CP recycling

CAWL Spearhead
Cawl + 5x dakkabots + 2x1 neutronagers + 1x4 lassBallistari

CADIAN Battalion
Company commander with 5+/5+ CP recycling
2x1 primaris psyker + 1x astropath
3x1 guardsmen with mortar

CADIAN spearhead
Primaris psyker
3x1 earthshaker battery


Well that's the list I v been using but I found some variations to work better.

1) I changed my list to get Celestine. But since I don't have the model and was using a friend's I decided to remove her
2) since not all tourneys play with earthshakers I usually field one more neutronager and a basilisk
3)A stygies outrider will help you extremely! Haven't decided yet but I lean towards -2 to hit 1*4 dragoons and only 2*1 balistarii with -1 for screen.
Why ? For the same reason I don't have priests in stygies. Limited stratagems. Maelstrom missions can't be won with no Celestine no dragoons no deep strike nothing. Some lists I even used ratlings and I won cards. Dragoons to March for obj need -2 else bb.

Overall the idea behind the list is to make my enemy drown in options to shoot. When 4 dragoons close in your ranks you must dedicate firepower. My enemy had 12 lascannons shots and passes 10 damage and my 3* neutron+ basilisk passed 30. And it's not the first time my neutron surpass plasma guard marine lasc etc!

So what I believe to be the proper approach . Or simply put how I did perform better!

Cadian battalion simple things 1 basilisk or 2 earthshakers + all your goodies.
Mars classik but 4 Robots seem enough if you got the stygies outrider to screen properly.
Stygia outrider for options. Dragoons can be anti mass and antitank. Lascannons won't be. I did the job with +2 hit on neutronager and +2 on dragoons.

Infantry units with mortars don't play nice since you move them. For a 12 point difference you can take a heavy team with mortars!!

I m still testing and I know what you doing here but mobility drops to zero with Robots and guard all dakka. The outrider gives options with just a slight dakka drop and an impressive -1 hit on ironstriders. The tech priest can repair Astra militarum vehicles. So even if you go second you can still survive most of your units. Robots still aegis balistarii -1 dragoons -2 onagers 5+ reroll ones. Almost same dakka better options and survivability!!

This is talk I'm trying to make since I found when I lost Celestine I could not move. Troops with mortar or snipers can't move so some form of options must be taken!!

   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block





China

There is also the autocannon variant, what do you think of that one?
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





I’m currently building 5 ironstriders, intending 3 to be dragoons and 2 to be balistarii. The +2 to hit. On 4 lascannon shots isn’t to be sniffed at. I’d consider autocannon too for sure, they also have the advantage of being much much cheaper and 8 * str 7 -1 2dmg shots on 2 decently survivable units seems like a bargain. At least as effective as dragoons but at 48” range

4 balistarii with autocannon is also a comparable cost to dragoons, shame they can’t move and fire with no penalty though.

I can see me always running at least 6 ironstriders.
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






A garden grove on Citadel Station

So, Tech-Priest Enginseers:

In the AM book, they don't have <Adeptus Mechanicus>, but they do have <FORGE WORLD>.

Is there any reason at all we would not want to have our Enginseers be from the AM book?

They cost 10 points less, but don't benefit from Canticles.

ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 ph34r wrote:
So, Tech-Priest Enginseers:

In the AM book, they don't have <Adeptus Mechanicus>, but they do have <FORGE WORLD>.

Is there any reason at all we would not want to have our Enginseers be from the AM book?

They cost 10 points less, but don't benefit from Canticles.
i can't imagine a reason for using them. their only real use in our dex is as the cheap HQ option.

011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






A garden grove on Citadel Station

gendoikari87 wrote:
 ph34r wrote:
So, Tech-Priest Enginseers:

In the AM book, they don't have <Adeptus Mechanicus>, but they do have <FORGE WORLD>.

Is there any reason at all we would not want to have our Enginseers be from the AM book?

They cost 10 points less, but don't benefit from Canticles.
i can't imagine a reason for using them. their only real use in our dex is as the cheap HQ option.
That would be the only reason, yes. I currently have a Mars Battalion so I have a 52 point enginseer tax, would rather it was a 42 point tax.

ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
 
   
Made in us
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Isle of Man, United Kingdom

 ph34r wrote:
gendoikari87 wrote:
 ph34r wrote:
So, Tech-Priest Enginseers:

In the AM book, they don't have <Adeptus Mechanicus>, but they do have <FORGE WORLD>.

Is there any reason at all we would not want to have our Enginseers be from the AM book?

They cost 10 points less, but don't benefit from Canticles.
i can't imagine a reason for using them. their only real use in our dex is as the cheap HQ option.
That would be the only reason, yes. I currently have a Mars Battalion so I have a 52 point enginseer tax, would rather it was a 42 point tax.


They're not HQs in the guard codex.

I'm the owner of The WAAAGH Studios, a commission painting service. If you have any commission work you'd like doing don't hesitate to message me or check out

My Website -

If you'd like to see some pictures of recently completed commissions check out this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/434887.page

as well as the studio Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/TheWAAAGHStudios 
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






A garden grove on Citadel Station

 AlexHeap wrote:
 ph34r wrote:
gendoikari87 wrote:
 ph34r wrote:
So, Tech-Priest Enginseers:

In the AM book, they don't have <Adeptus Mechanicus>, but they do have <FORGE WORLD>.

Is there any reason at all we would not want to have our Enginseers be from the AM book?

They cost 10 points less, but don't benefit from Canticles.
i can't imagine a reason for using them. their only real use in our dex is as the cheap HQ option.
That would be the only reason, yes. I currently have a Mars Battalion so I have a 52 point enginseer tax, would rather it was a 42 point tax.
They're not HQs in the guard codex.
Ah, there we go. Thanks.

ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
 
   
Made in lt
Mysterious Techpriest






Also having them in the detachment would make the detachement AdMech instead of <forgeworld> so no traits

Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






A garden grove on Citadel Station

They do have the forgeworld keyword. But anyway, elite choice, no point.

ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






gendoikari87 wrote:
Your assuming a lot of moving. Plasma has a 36" range same as kastelans and no body is crying over them gluing themselves to the board

Uh... yes? You move your tanks more often than not, I hope? One of the big deals about Crawlers was actually that they have BS3+ and no hit penalty for moving.

Wulfey wrote:
on all this talk about leman russes. I am not convinced they are better than onagers. Guard has some access to rerolls to hit, but not that many. And Russ's don't have invul saves so they will draw -4 fire like crazy. Assuming 4s rerolling 1s you are looking at 58% chance to hit against a -0 target, and like 38% chance to hit a target with -1 to hit. That is some sad stuff. Assuming they shoot twice they only barely manage to keep up with an onager. And the Onager is a lot more mobile and has better repair options and invul saves. The only Russ that really does damage in its points range is the Plasma one on overcharge. It competes with the damage output of a comparably pointed Hellblaster squad in rapid fire range or the much cheaper plasmacide squad in deep strike rapid fire range. But again, 3+ with no invul sucks. And the damage profile on these things are super hard to mitigate without admech + to hit and ignore table strategems. I would take a 6 stack of onagers and Cawl over a 5 stack of leman russes + Pask any day of the week. If you deployed right then the russes wouldn't be able to all shoot without losing their double shoot.

Even further, they still haven't fixed the 'reroll ANY' language on Cawl. That makes neutronagers accurate against -1 to be hit models in a way that no other list can be accurate. Not seeing all the leman russ love.

Also, I was at socal open. The leman russ spam lists got peed on. People just shot them from afar or tied them up in combat. If you want to run tanks, run a baneblade.
EDIT2: even then, a baneblade with a few lascannons is like 500 points. That is as much as a knight. It shoots better than the knight and with a strategem it can fight kinda okay, but it has no invul save. So every lascannon shot at your baneblade will only be saved in a 6+.

I don't think 100% LR lists are viable. It's like running 100% Kastelan lists.

Wulfey wrote:

EDIT3: I think there is a dark horse unit combo in the admech codex. Now that I have 4 dragoon models, I am thinking about the possibilities of a Stygies 4 lascannon ballistari unit. Hear me out. The +2 to hit strategem is seriously good on a big units of walkers. +2 to hit on 8 lascannons is no joke and ballistari are 50 point platforms for lascannons, and points spent on lascannons (45) are never wasted. This unit will draw mad fire from your opponent, but it has the bonus that it can move and shoot when you use the strategem. It won't provide the mortal wound generation of the wrath of mars robots, but man will it remove pesky transports with ease. I wanted my dragoons to do serious work, but the proliferation of mega tau overwatch, autohitting super flamers from plagecrawls, lord of skulls godtier overwatch, and ynnari double-move charges made them semi-useless in 5 of 6 games. Sure, they absorbed fire, but ballistari could absorb comparable fire at reduced point efficiency. On top of this the 4 stack of ballistari could full BS overwatch with a strategm, which is hilarious. Talk about a lame screen to charge.

That idea has been tossed around. A unit of 4x Dragoons (6x if you want some redundancy) and a unit of 6x Lascannon or Autocannon Ballistarii. You want 6x for the same reason you want 6x Kastelans: more bang per CP.

Yeah, your Dragoons will die 90% of the time. But they're one of those threats that can't be ignored because if they pull off a charge, they're gobbling up one vehicle per turn.

 takonite wrote:
There is also the autocannon variant, what do you think of that one?

It can replace Kastelans for anti-horde, but it's not as point efficient. That being said, they are definitely super annoying to deal with.
   
Made in lt
Mysterious Techpriest






 ph34r wrote:
They do have the forgeworld keyword. But anyway, elite choice, no point.


I'm just blind. I thought you said he doesn't have forgeworld and has admech derp derp.

Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Illinois

 Aaranis wrote:
Personnally I use the Electromancer canticle like this: get the canticle, now every time an Adeptus Mechanicus units gets within 1" of an enemy unit, this unit suffers the effect on a 6. The thing is I believe you can use it all round, so when you get charged during his turn, you have a chance to shock them. When you get piled-in by enemy models, you get to shock them. Same thing when it's my turn, let's say I charge with my Vanguards, I roll it once, then I pile-in into a different unit after wiping out the precedent, I roll it a second time. The thing to remember being that a single enemy unit can't be affected by the shock more than once.

I'm playing it like this at my store and noone finds this unreasonable. It's still a very low probability to do actual wounds but at least the threat is constant, and sometimes you get surprising results like my Fulgurites finishing off Typhus in CC.


This is how I play it. ANd I've brought it up to my opponents and gaming group for clarity and to be upfront and they all agree that what the wording implies. Otherwise its garbage.

8th Overhaul!
Over 18,000 SM
Over 7000 Tyranids
About 3000 Genestealer cult
About 6000 IG
About 2500 Chaos
About 5000 Skitarii/Admech *Current focus
About 3000 Deamons
2 Imperial Knigts... Soon to be a third

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Suzuteo wrote:
Uh... yes? You move your tanks more often than not, I hope? One of the big deals about Crawlers was actually that they have BS3+ and no hit penalty for moving.


not the tank tanks (maybe once per game for better vantage) that's what the armored fist squads are for. not sure if i'd go normal squads in chimera's or tempestus squads in taurox primes. leaning taurox primes because those things are bad ass.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/25 10:02:28


011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





 rvd1ofakind wrote:
 ph34r wrote:
They do have the forgeworld keyword. But anyway, elite choice, no point.


I'm just blind. I thought you said he doesn't have forgeworld and has admech derp derp.


If they're 10 points cheaper they might be viable to fill elite slots in a brigade if you werent planning on taking priests or infiltrators. I mean that puts us up to 6 units able to repair anything per turn. That is if the AM version has the same Master of machines rules. *

* edit: It does.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/25 10:27:47


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





so question. which is tougher to kill an onager with a 5+ invuln or a leman russ with +1w and T8

011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





PDX

gendoikari87 wrote:
so question. which is tougher to kill an onager with a 5+ invuln or a leman russ with +1w and T8


Depends on what is shooting at them. It factors in more when it is S7 and up weapons, which are usually what is being aimed at them. T8 means that S8 needs 4+ to wound, not 5+ for S7. Enemy S7 against Dunecrawlers needs 4+. So we would take more wounds in theory, but have a 33% chance to stop them.

I feel like this one has just too many variables to answer easily as is. We would need to break it down into specifics.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
gendoikari87 wrote:
so question. which is tougher to kill an onager with a 5+ invuln or a leman russ with +1w and T8


Depends on what is shooting at them. It factors in more when it is S7 and up weapons, which are usually what is being aimed at them. T8 means that S8 needs 4+ to wound, not 5+ for S7. Enemy S7 against Dunecrawlers needs 4+. So we would take more wounds in theory, but have a 33% chance to stop them.

I feel like this one has just too many variables to answer easily as is. We would need to break it down into specifics.
yeah that's my feeling too. and it probably depends a LOT on meta. if -2 weapons or less are the rage the 5++ doesn't matter -3 it matters some -4 it matters a lot. right now i'd say with plasma spam being prevalent it's probably a wash between the -3 (point in favor of the crawler and str 7/8(point in favor of the russ)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/25 15:33:31


011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





gendoikari87 wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
gendoikari87 wrote:
so question. which is tougher to kill an onager with a 5+ invuln or a leman russ with +1w and T8


Depends on what is shooting at them. It factors in more when it is S7 and up weapons, which are usually what is being aimed at them. T8 means that S8 needs 4+ to wound, not 5+ for S7. Enemy S7 against Dunecrawlers needs 4+. So we would take more wounds in theory, but have a 33% chance to stop them.

I feel like this one has just too many variables to answer easily as is. We would need to break it down into specifics.
yeah that's my feeling too. and it probably depends a LOT on meta. if -2 weapons or less are the rage the 5++ doesn't matter -3 it matters some -4 it matters a lot. right now i'd say with plasma spam being prevalent it's probably a wash between the -3 (point in favor of the crawler and str 7/8(point in favor of the russ)


You've also got the 5++ re-roll on crawlers if two are next to eachother. anything -3 and above puts the russ at a distinct disadvantage imo, saving on a 6 on -3 or getting no save on a -4. But as you say str 7 and -3 is the standard for plasma which is extremely accessible compared to -4 weapons. technically a crawler can be repaired more effectively than a russ, if it survives the round. A dunecrawler also has no penalty in firepower for moving to retreat.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Don't forget the str 8 damage 2 when supercharged. everyones afraid of those mortal wounds but it's a good pay off to double your effective damage on vehicles and also wound on at least a 4+. factor in re rolls and they get nice. that said cadians with their reroll of 1 and the tank order is just really really good together.

011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





 ph34r wrote:
They do have the forgeworld keyword. But anyway, elite choice, no point.


If they don't have the "Ad Mech" Keyword, the entire detachment they are in wouldn't benefit from canticles, it wold end up being an "Imperium" detachment

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/25 16:30:49


3000
4000 
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





 WrentheFaceless wrote:
 ph34r wrote:
They do have the forgeworld keyword. But anyway, elite choice, no point.


If they don't have the "Ad Mech" Keyword, the entire detachment they are in wouldn't benefit from canticles, it wold end up being an "Imperium" detachment


Spoil sport it has the cult mechanicus keyword, so if you wanted to be pure cult you could still use them as elites.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
gendoikari87 wrote:
so question. which is tougher to kill an onager with a 5+ invuln or a leman russ with +1w and T8


Depends on what is shooting at them. It factors in more when it is S7 and up weapons, which are usually what is being aimed at them. T8 means that S8 needs 4+ to wound, not 5+ for S7. Enemy S7 against Dunecrawlers needs 4+. So we would take more wounds in theory, but have a 33% chance to stop them.

I feel like this one has just too many variables to answer easily as is. We would need to break it down into specifics.


The Onager saves better period. 2+/5++ beats 3+ every time. People avoid Str8 weapons for anti tank purposes because of the risk of running into knights. You don't see Missile Launcher spam builds but you sure do see a lot of LasCannon spam builds. Also, there isn't a lot of Str7 firepower in the game. Only autocannons specificlaly hit at Str7 and they are relatively rare in competitive play. Also, Onagers are cheaper, so their wounds go farther. And The Onagers take substantially less accuracy degredation as they take wounds. A bottom tier Leman russ hits on 6s and the codex offers no help to improve those 6s. Admech has all kinds of tricks to get those Onagers firing proper. If you already have Cawl, then you should be taking Onagers. If you are Stygies, wow, them Onagers are way tougher than Leman's with that -1.

Think about the premier anti tank weapons in this game. Lascannons(9/-3), Melta(8/-4), Railguns(10/-4), Neutrons(10/-4). People bring -4 to games and Leman's flatly don't get a save against that. Models without invuls get punked in this meta.
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





PDX

Wulfey wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
gendoikari87 wrote:
so question. which is tougher to kill an onager with a 5+ invuln or a leman russ with +1w and T8


Depends on what is shooting at them. It factors in more when it is S7 and up weapons, which are usually what is being aimed at them. T8 means that S8 needs 4+ to wound, not 5+ for S7. Enemy S7 against Dunecrawlers needs 4+. So we would take more wounds in theory, but have a 33% chance to stop them.

I feel like this one has just too many variables to answer easily as is. We would need to break it down into specifics.


The Onager saves better period. 2+/5++ beats 3+ every time. People avoid Str8 weapons for anti tank purposes because of the risk of running into knights. You don't see Missile Launcher spam builds but you sure do see a lot of LasCannon spam builds. Also, there isn't a lot of Str7 firepower in the game. Only autocannons specificlaly hit at Str7 and they are relatively rare in competitive play. Also, Onagers are cheaper, so their wounds go farther. And The Onagers take substantially less accuracy degredation as they take wounds. A bottom tier Leman russ hits on 6s and the codex offers no help to improve those 6s. Admech has all kinds of tricks to get those Onagers firing proper. If you already have Cawl, then you should be taking Onagers. If you are Stygies, wow, them Onagers are way tougher than Leman's with that -1.

Think about the premier anti tank weapons in this game. Lascannons(9/-3), Melta(8/-4), Railguns(10/-4), Neutrons(10/-4). People bring -4 to games and Leman's flatly don't get a save against that. Models without invuls get punked in this meta.


Like I said. A lot of variables that need to be looked at specifically.

   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






A garden grove on Citadel Station

Wulfey wrote:
The Onager saves better period. 2+/5++ beats 3+ every time. People avoid Str8 weapons for anti tank purposes because of the risk of running into knights. You don't see Missile Launcher spam builds but you sure do see a lot of LasCannon spam builds. Also, there isn't a lot of Str7 firepower in the game. Only autocannons specificlaly hit at Str7 and they are relatively rare in competitive play. Also, Onagers are cheaper, so their wounds go farther. And The Onagers take substantially less accuracy degredation as they take wounds. A bottom tier Leman russ hits on 6s and the codex offers no help to improve those 6s. Admech has all kinds of tricks to get those Onagers firing proper. If you already have Cawl, then you should be taking Onagers. If you are Stygies, wow, them Onagers are way tougher than Leman's with that -1.

Think about the premier anti tank weapons in this game. Lascannons(9/-3), Melta(8/-4), Railguns(10/-4), Neutrons(10/-4). People bring -4 to games and Leman's flatly don't get a save against that. Models without invuls get punked in this meta.
It's a good point on the high AP weapons. Leman Russ is certainly way more resilient to small-arms fire, but with a savvy opponent this may not matter much.

My question then becomes, what is the right number of onagers? Is 2 too are, would 3 be better? Assuming they are all neutron onagers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/25 18:21:07


ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





PDX

 ph34r wrote:
Wulfey wrote:
The Onager saves better period. 2+/5++ beats 3+ every time. People avoid Str8 weapons for anti tank purposes because of the risk of running into knights. You don't see Missile Launcher spam builds but you sure do see a lot of LasCannon spam builds. Also, there isn't a lot of Str7 firepower in the game. Only autocannons specificlaly hit at Str7 and they are relatively rare in competitive play. Also, Onagers are cheaper, so their wounds go farther. And The Onagers take substantially less accuracy degredation as they take wounds. A bottom tier Leman russ hits on 6s and the codex offers no help to improve those 6s. Admech has all kinds of tricks to get those Onagers firing proper. If you already have Cawl, then you should be taking Onagers. If you are Stygies, wow, them Onagers are way tougher than Leman's with that -1.

Think about the premier anti tank weapons in this game. Lascannons(9/-3), Melta(8/-4), Railguns(10/-4), Neutrons(10/-4). People bring -4 to games and Leman's flatly don't get a save against that. Models without invuls get punked in this meta.
It's a good point on the high AP weapons. Leman Russ is certainly way more resilient to small-arms fire, but with a savvy opponent this may not matter much.

My question then becomes, what is the right number of onagers? Is 2 too are, would 3 be better? Assuming they are all neutron onagers.


I am strongly considering triple Neutron. Seriously. Shutting down high toughness multi-wound threats fast and hard would really help. We have the Robots to do the heavy lifting on the GEQ/MEQ/TEQ front.

   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

If I wasn't already running two plasma scion command squads, I'd throw in a third dunecrawler. But... y'know.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






gendoikari87 wrote:
so question. which is tougher to kill an onager with a 5+ invuln or a leman russ with +1w and T8

Against anti-tank weapons, which are S8 an AP-2 and up, I would say that the invulnerable does lot more. There are a lot of Earthshakers, plasma, and Battle Cannon equivalents out there.

 ph34r wrote:
My question then becomes, what is the right number of onagers? Is 2 too are, would 3 be better? Assuming they are all neutron onagers.

I have done 2 Icarus and 2 Neutron for a long, long time. (But if I add a Tank Commander, I might do 3.)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/25 18:33:52


 
   
Made in gr
Stalwart Tribune





Greece

I tried to convince many in here when codex released the proper way is 3 neutronagers.
The real question though is how many if you run also
basilisk balistarii lascannon and or earthshakers.
Cant have all. And every single time i dont take that third onager or replace it with icarus so far i regret it. Thats why i asked for feedback.
I can see the appeal on earthshakers but...And ok i like the option to hit targets with no los. SO i try with 1-2 shakers or a basilisk results not close to onager yet....

The question.

1)1-2 balistarii lasc for outrider
2)1x4 vs 2 onager for the buff +2 hit (no point since with out -1 hit they are worse)
3)1-2 Earths for los hitting bs4 re 1s or one basilisk for non fw

And dragoons in mars are pointless balistarii better for MArs for rerolls but still ironstriders without stygies become a secondary option for me. Celestine can deliver 12-12 move and tie enemy lines better but 3-4 dragoons with -2 and infiltrate can be leathal and in many cases more durable yes(+canticles).

i dont know so far i have tested games with

1xbasilisk
1x3 dragoons (mars)
1x3 onagers
some Celestine some not.

I really try to fit an outrider in Celestines place making it
2x1 balistarii (screeners-shooter) As dual roles can be equal to neutronager...?
1x34 dragoons stygies
and an Enginseer

its really different every time this is why came here.
P.s Heavy weapons team 3x lasc 78 points and its what spam guard will play. Paper but cheap and rer 1s cadia.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/25 20:07:15


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: