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Iago40k wrote:
Since pretty much every Eldar player has got like 35 Dark Reapers at least Id like to know what we can do against them, especially against a 10 man unit of ynari with interceptor stratagem. Looking for some AdMech possibilities, not Guard because I know there are Basilisks and Mortars.

pretty much all phosphor weaponry is excellent against reapers, who are generally in cover (so the ignores cover will help you out) and lose effectiveness with every wound they take unlike a vehicle target which really only loses a lot of its effectiveness with the last wound.

Dakkastelans would be my preferred unit to deal with them, then. Unfortunately that is very first turn reliant. If you're setting up a mars list, I would do something like this:

-Unit of dakkastelans as standard

if you get the first turn, great! Shoot dakkastelans at reapers, kill reapers.

If you lose first turn, reapers likely kill dakkastelans. Sadface.

Drop a unit of 10x sicarian infiltrators down, average 8 mortal wounds with wrath of mars, kill the reapers.

I don't know whether others have had success with a more efficient, less swingy solution, but that's what I can think of offhand.

the_scotsman wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
Since pretty much every Eldar player has got like 35 Dark Reapers at least Id like to know what we can do against them, especially against a 10 man unit of ynari with interceptor stratagem. Looking for some AdMech possibilities, not Guard because I know there are Basilisks and Mortars.

pretty much all phosphor weaponry is excellent against reapers, who are generally in cover (so the ignores cover will help you out) and lose effectiveness with every wound they take unlike a vehicle target which really only loses a lot of its effectiveness with the last wound.

Dakkastelans would be my preferred unit to deal with them, then. Unfortunately that is very first turn reliant. If you're setting up a mars list, I would do something like this:

-Unit of dakkastelans as standard

if you get the first turn, great! Shoot dakkastelans at reapers, kill reapers.

If you lose first turn, reapers likely kill dakkastelans. Sadface.

Drop a unit of 10x sicarian infiltrators down, average 8 mortal wounds with wrath of mars, kill the reapers.

I don't know whether others have had success with a more efficient, less swingy solution, but that's what I can think of offhand.

You have a 4+ save with Shroudpsalm. 35 shots translates to about 24 hits. That is 4 of your 6 robots dead in a turn - which yes, is absolutely devastating - but that is literally 35 Dark Reapers all shooting at your unit and going straight averages. If you don't have Shroudpsalm, you hilarious will kill more than a few Reapers too via the Repulsor Grid (about 5-6), because your 5++ is your go-to save. But honestly, who is really running that list? You sacrifice so much variety and diversity if you spam Reapers.

That being said, just deploy behind LoS blocking terrain, move up and pop BO after to double-tap. It won't be as useful because of the to-hit penalty for moving, but it beats losing 2/3 your Robots before you can shoot.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
Since pretty much every Eldar player has got like 35 Dark Reapers at least Id like to know what we can do against them, especially against a 10 man unit of ynari with interceptor stratagem. Looking for some AdMech possibilities, not Guard because I know there are Basilisks and Mortars.

pretty much all phosphor weaponry is excellent against reapers, who are generally in cover (so the ignores cover will help you out) and lose effectiveness with every wound they take unlike a vehicle target which really only loses a lot of its effectiveness with the last wound.

Dakkastelans would be my preferred unit to deal with them, then. Unfortunately that is very first turn reliant. If you're setting up a mars list, I would do something like this:

-Unit of dakkastelans as standard

if you get the first turn, great! Shoot dakkastelans at reapers, kill reapers.

If you lose first turn, reapers likely kill dakkastelans. Sadface.

Drop a unit of 10x sicarian infiltrators down, average 8 mortal wounds with wrath of mars, kill the reapers.

I don't know whether others have had success with a more efficient, less swingy solution, but that's what I can think of offhand.

You have a 4+ save with Shroudpsalm. 35 shots translates to about 24 hits. That is 4 of your 6 robots dead in a turn - which yes, is absolutely devastating - but that is literally 35 Dark Reapers all shooting at your unit and going straight averages. If you don't have Shroudpsalm, you hilarious will kill more than a few Reapers too via the Repulsor Grid (about 5-6), because your 5++ is your go-to save. But honestly, who is really running that list? You sacrifice so much variety and diversity if you spam Reapers.

That being said, just deploy behind LoS blocking terrain, move up and pop BO after to double-tap. It won't be as useful because of the to-hit penalty for moving, but it beats losing 2/3 your Robots before you can shoot.

obviously everything is variable according to terrain setup - yeah if you can deploy 6 models the size of kastelans out of los of 35 dark reapers spread across the board do it to it, but that's unlikely in my eyes. I'm assuming the situation where you'll lose most if not all of your bots turn 1 if you don't get it (you're likely to be a more elite army than him though, so there is that.

However, if reaperspam well and truly does become meta, the absolute drop-dead solution is to actually just bring Lucius bots and deep strike them. Stratagem Shmatagem, drop them in with shroudpsalm turn 1 and tank the loss of 1 bot on average from 10 reapers shooting them, then BO the remaining five to double-tap mode and drop 40 reapers on average with their shooting attacks.

S6 AP-2 ignores cover is really REALLY good at murdering dark reapers if you get the shots off, you don't even need the extra rerolls on 2 from Cawl or WoM to basically table their army in one round.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Note: Realistically a reaperspam list will probably be running 1 ten man unit with yvraine and then multiple 5-man units. You'll want to devote 2 bots to killing the ynnari unit of 10 just to be sure, then 1 bot to each 5-man squad, so a more realistic casualty output from your 5 bots is actually 25 reapers. Still a very solid trade for you and you clean up the remainder on your following turn)

I just don't see 35 Reapers on the table being viable. You want Hemlocks, Farseers, Spiritseers, Rangers, etc. Eldar functions well with lots of tools - if you just spam a unit, you will suffer.

On an aside, even if you do go first, you need to be prepared to open a Wave Serpent up to dump the Reapers or be ready for a unit to come out of the Webway (or both). Eldar are good at getting their first shot no matter if they go first or not.

Kind of your not mars theres the deepstrike strategems

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
I just don't see 35 Reapers on the table being viable. You want Hemlocks, Farseers, Spiritseers, Rangers, etc. Eldar functions well with lots of tools - if you just spam a unit, you will suffer.

On an aside, even if you do go first, you need to be prepared to open a Wave Serpent up to dump the Reapers or be ready for a unit to come out of the Webway (or both). Eldar are good at getting their first shot no matter if they go first or not.

You don't need Hemlocks. You really only need Dark Reapers, Shining Spears, some Rangers and a handful of Psykers. You are right that spamming one unit is not a good idea. But Eldar have a lot of insanely good units with a very cheap price tag. We got the national finals in germany coming up. take a look at those lists. Its 1850 points though, we will play 2k games in the upcoming season.
http://www.tabletopmasters.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/TTM-Finale-2017-Listen.pdf

Iago40k wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
I just don't see 35 Reapers on the table being viable. You want Hemlocks, Farseers, Spiritseers, Rangers, etc. Eldar functions well with lots of tools - if you just spam a unit, you will suffer.

On an aside, even if you do go first, you need to be prepared to open a Wave Serpent up to dump the Reapers or be ready for a unit to come out of the Webway (or both). Eldar are good at getting their first shot no matter if they go first or not.

You don't need Hemlocks. You really only need Dark Reapers, Shining Spears, some Rangers and a handful of Psykers. You are right that spamming one unit is not a good idea. But Eldar have a lot of insanely good units with a very cheap price tag. We got the national finals in germany coming up. take a look at those lists. Its 1850 points though, we will play 2k games in the upcoming season.
http://www.tabletopmasters.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/TTM-Finale-2017-Listen.pdf

One spam list that I do hope - most hilariously - loses due to objectives after its three baby units die and the opponent hunkers down behind cover.

Also, Hemlocks make great blockers. That army is going to get wrecked by assault armies that can close the gap. Once locked, those Reapers fall to pieces.

Dark reapers are why my dragoons are on the shelf and celestine got put in. She threatens 30" of charging and can charge from behind a wall to dodge the overwatch.

The Admech list uses ideas i was toying around with lately. Screw forgeworld doctrines and get the best use out of the stratagems. Such as lucius destroyer with kastellans dropping midfield using Elimination volley and having a tpd with solar flare teleporting in while stygies dragoons are on the front line and some mars infiltrators for wrath dropping in. Some graia Rangers for anti psi.

Iago40k wrote:
The Admech list uses ideas i was toying around with lately. Screw forgeworld doctrines and get the best use out of the stratagems. Such as lucius destroyer with kastellans dropping midfield using Elimination volley and having a tpd with solar flare teleporting in while stygies dragoons are on the front line and some mars infiltrators for wrath dropping in. Some graia Rangers for anti psi.

Elimination volley requires <FORGEWORLD>. Which is terrible. I posted some musing on the idea of using a cross forgeworld list earlier. The good combo is to stuff drop teams of plasma duders into MARS detachments, since MARS and LUCIUS forgeworld traits aren't that great.

Iago40k wrote:
Since pretty much every Eldar player has got like 35 Dark Reapers at least Id like to know what we can do against them, especially against a 10 man unit of ynari with interceptor stratagem. Looking for some AdMech possibilities, not Guard because I know there are Basilisks and Mortars but those are just not good anymore. Maybe versus the ynari ones but hitting against Aleatoc is just a pain in the ass and not worth it...

Basilisks and Mortars are still good against Reapers. But if you want AdMech, the ideal counter are Icarus Crawlers, mostly because they can match their range, move from out of LOS and shoot, and also can threaten their transports. Kastelans and Dragoons can also do a fair job, but they sort of kill everything with volume fire.

Wulfey wrote:
Dark reapers are why my dragoons are on the shelf and celestine got put in. She threatens 30" of charging and can charge from behind a wall to dodge the overwatch.

I don't see the logic here. Celestine is way less threatening than Dragoons, and there's nothing wrong with a unit serving as a bullet magnet. I mean, look at this from an Eldar perspective. He sees 6 Dragoons and 5 Kastelans. Nothing else in his army is going to kill those Dragoons as well as Reapers, so he has immense pressure to do from what our perspective is the suboptimal play. I mean, I would rather lose six Dragoons on turn one than three to four Kastelans any day of the week.

Wulfey wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
The Admech list uses ideas i was toying around with lately. Screw forgeworld doctrines and get the best use out of the stratagems. Such as lucius destroyer with kastellans dropping midfield using Elimination volley and having a tpd with solar flare teleporting in while stygies dragoons are on the front line and some mars infiltrators for wrath dropping in. Some graia Rangers for anti psi.

Elimination volley requires <FORGEWORLD>. Which is terrible. I posted some musing on the idea of using a cross forgeworld list earlier. The good combo is to stuff drop teams of plasma duders into MARS detachments, since MARS and LUCIUS forgeworld traits aren't that great.

which is why you could drop 4-6 lucius dakkastelans midfield followed by lucius Grav destroyers. Teleport a TPD with solar flare and do what you want in the shooting Phase.

I used to Player 2-3 onagers but they slowly shifted out of my list since there are less and less tanks around and volume trumps quality shooting.

You could even deepstrike the TPD, if you want Guard WLT / Relic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW: Are you just including a 3 Destroyer Squad or more?

My list idea which I will test on wednesday:

mixed Battalion
TPE (Stygies VIII)
TPE (Stygies VIII)

Rangers (Graia)
Rangers (Graia)
Rangers (Graia)

6 Dragoons (Stygies VIII)


Lucius Battalion
TPD with Solar Flare
TPE

6 Destroyer Grav/Flamer
Vanguards
Vanguards

4 Dakkastelans


This leaves me with 281 pts to toy around with. Possibilities: 2 additional Dakkastelans (which I am not a fan of), 10 Mars Infiltrators (possible wrath of mars proc), Lucius or Stygies Electro Priests or any godd idea by you guys
I think a counter charge unit would come in handy cause bots and destroyers will be in CC after their first shooting so I need to get them free asap. Thoughts?

Neutron lasers?

 ph34r wrote:
Neutron lasers?

Yeah they might work depending on the opponent. In a tank heavy environment (without any invuls) they can work great. But there are not that many armies that field targets for them...at least thats my feeling.

Atm I think 10 Mars Taser Infiltrators could be the best solution. Can dish out mortal wounds with Wrath of Mars, great counter charge unit and with shroud psalm and +1 save stratagem they might survive one round out in the open. When taking as lucius they would be even tougher against -1 AP weapons...hmmm.

Iago40k wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Neutron lasers?

Yeah they might work depending on the opponent. In a tank heavy environment (without any invuls) they can work great. But there are not that many armies that field targets for them...at least thats my feeling.

Atm I think 10 Mars Taser Infiltrators could be the best solution. Can dish out mortal wounds with Wrath of Mars, great counter charge unit and with shroud psalm and +1 save stratagem they might survive one round out in the open. When taking as lucius they would be even tougher against -1 AP weapons...hmmm.

Please let us know how your listed worked out!

Regarding Neutron Lasers you are spot on imo. Either they got some really nice targets where they really shine or they do not really much, for example their are really bad against things like Magnus....

Regarding infiltrators: well the +1 save cp requires them to be at an objective, so you can't always utilise it.
But I would definitely make them Mars. The ability to dish out MW is much more useful than ignoring -1 to hit imo.

]

 ph34r wrote:


Please let us know how your listed worked out!

Regarding Neutron Lasers you are spot on imo. Either they got some really nice targets where they really shine or they do not really much, for example their are really bad against things like Magnus....

Regarding infiltrators: well the +1 save cp requires them to be at an objective, so you can't always utilise it.
But I would definitely make them Mars. The ability to dish out MW is much more useful than ignoring -1 to hit imo.

Will do. Biggest issues my be a monster heavy Nid list.

Yeah, for 220 points they have me considering them. I worry that their 1 turn alpha strike just isn't enough however. Every army in the game can shoot/charge the entire unit of 10 off the table on their turn. You are spending 220 points and 3CP to deal about 8 mortal wounds if you have reroll 1s and the +1 to hit strategem, or 5 mortal wounds if you are hitting on 3s. They are good counter-deep strikers for sure, because their profile erases every other deep striker in the game. They can also assassinate a poorly placed character with ease. But you will be disappointed if you drop the 10 man and expect to kill a tank.

Awww Wulfey...builded 5 Ruststalkers for a War COn and now they are Infiltrators..I feel you man.
I am also trying to fit in a Culexus and maybe a cheap Company Commander as Patrol Detachment for the CP regain and, which is actually the biggest thing, to get the Assassin out of the AdMech detachment cause I kind of need Shroudpsalm on all models and not just on one Detachment.

I would think that the monster heavy nid list would be an excellent target for 2 Crawlers with Neutron Lasers. Same with the Icarus Array if they have any sort of flying monster.

Anyway, good luck!

 ph34r wrote:
I would think that the monster heavy nid list would be an excellent target for 2 Crawlers with Neutron Lasers. Same with the Icarus Array if they have any sort of flying monster.

Anyway, good luck!

it Sure would be but i am not building an anti nid list but a tournament löst. So i guess ots good to the against a bad match up like that. Cheers

I am refining my tournament list based on experiences over the weekend. This is what I am thinking would be better. All the top 5 lists had some way to 'scout' deploy outside of their deployment zone.

MARS Spearhead
Cawl - 1x4 dakkabots - 3x1 neutronagers

IMPERIUM Soup battalion
Celestine + Geminae
Company Commander CADIA
3x5 naked scouts (maybe knives, since I really want these guys charging out of LOS through walls)

CADIA Battalion
2x Company Commander - 5+/5+, relic of lost cadia
3x9 guardsmen with mortar team
1x2 Basilisks
2x1 Mortar teams

Admech is comically vulnerable to deepstriking lists because we can't block anything outside of our deployment zone. I got completely F'ed over by a dawn of war 12" deployment zone. If I had scouts I would have a chance against more lists. EDIT: I really want to drive this point home, if your list doesn't have 'scout' deployment options [rangers, scouts, nurglings, stealth suits, etc.], then your list is not top table viable. Obliterators, tau commanders, scions, elysians, daemon primarchs, heaps of things have ways to deploy in your face and some deployment types give you only 12" of depth. If sicarians could only 'scout' deploy then admech would become massively more viable. Or if we could just deploy our troops 6" out of our deployment zone like we used to able to. Those scout moves are huge for stopping deepstrike.

Wulfey wrote:
Admech is comically vulnerable to deepstriking lists because we can't block anything outside of our deployment zone. I got completely F'ed over by a dawn of war 12" deployment zone. If I had scouts I would have a chance against more lists. EDIT: I really want to drive this point home, if your list doesn't have 'scout' deployment options [rangers, scouts, nurglings, stealth suits, etc.], then your list is not top table viable. Obliterators, tau commanders, scions, elysians, daemon primarchs, heaps of things have ways to deploy in your face and some deployment types give you only 12" of depth. If sicarians could only 'scout' deploy then admech would become massively more viable. Or if we could just deploy our troops 6" out of our deployment zone like we used to able to. Those scout moves are huge for stopping deepstrike.

Concerning deployment maps, you just have to deal with that. Some deployments favor us by a ridiculous degree. Others do the opposite.

I know what Scout is in 7E, but what are scouts, and what is Scout here? Are you talking about Vanguard? I mean, Dominion Squads do what you would want them to do (I think we were talking about Sisters+Crawlers pre-codex), but keep in mind that people are currently freaking because of Reapers Webwaying into range of vulnerable vehicles for a devastating alpha strike. I still think the solution for us is to double down on Dragoons as a bullet magnet.

OH, and you can do Death Korps Grenadiers inside of a Centaur.

'scout' deploy:

Concealed Positions: When you set up this unit during deployment, it can be set up anywhere on the battle eld that is more than 9" from the enemy deployment zone.

This is massive. Think about Obliterators, Tau Commanders, deepstriking primarchs (soon), scion/elysians, eldar deepstrike. All of that stuff relies on being 9" from your guys. Scouts can deploy (during deployment!) outside of your deployment zone. This massively stretches out the distance of your screen. Top tier lists all have ways of 'scout' deploying (rangers, scouts, nurglings, stealth suits, etc.). Note that this is much better than a scout sentinel's move between deployment and the first battle round. The first scout drop can decide the game if you are facing deepstrike.

In regards to Robots vs Reapers, does the -1 to hit start to increase the apetite for Robots sans Crawl, favouring extra survivability and flexibility (with Robots dead you just have a 240pt Crawl helping a couple of Dunecrawlers with re-rolls) over the possibility of the Mars alpha strike?

Wulfey wrote:
'scout' deploy:

Concealed Positions: When you set up this unit during deployment, it can be set up anywhere on the battle eld that is more than 9" from the enemy deployment zone.

This is massive. Think about Obliterators, Tau Commanders, deepstriking primarchs (soon), scion/elysians, eldar deepstrike. All of that stuff relies on being 9" from your guys. Scouts can deploy (during deployment!) outside of your deployment zone. This massively stretches out the distance of your screen. Top tier lists all have ways of 'scout' deploying (rangers, scouts, nurglings, stealth suits, etc.). Note that this is much better than a scout sentinel's move between deployment and the first battle round. The first scout drop can decide the game if you are facing deepstrike.

So pretty much the same as clandestine infiltration in function, except we get to see where they are before deployment finishes; Whereas with clandestine infiltration we can take stock of the deployment and choose where to put them. But they do get it for free, whereas we have to pay cp for it, but conversely we have the flexibility to potentially do it to any unit. You see space marine scouts without sniper rifles, you can guarantee they’ll be deploying concealed.

Some units also have a true scout-move. Scout-sentinels and Kroot carnivores for example.

Good luck wulfey.

The core Cawl 4 Robots 3 neutrons 2 basilisk has served me extremely good. After that you can try many different styles.

Celestine 250 =1*3-4 Dragoons

Or you can make the soup detachment with psychers for defence or offence. You can add plasma deep strike or my personal favorite ranger arqieb sniper and ratlings with snipers to spread all over out of deploy zone. I don't know the point changes but so far I have tried those combinations all good and nice. Up to your personal preference enjoy

 Yoda79 wrote:
Good luck wulfey.

The core Cawl 4 Robots 3 neutrons 2 basilisk has served me extremely good. After that you can try many different styles.

Celestine 250 =1*3-4 Dragoons

Or you can make the soup detachment with psychers for defence or offence. You can add plasma deep strike or my personal favorite ranger arqieb sniper and ratlings with snipers to spread all over out of deploy zone. I don't know the point changes but so far I have tried those combinations all good and nice. Up to your personal preference enjoy

I have 4 dragoons on my shelf. I think they are great. But they are fast attack and I need CP. Celestine lets me take 2 battalions and boy do my robots love CP. Dragoons are best taken as 1 mega blob in 1 fast attack slot ... and there is just no way I can make that fast attack choice contribute to CP. My list with Celestine and scouts is chosen because my robots and onagers eat CP every shooting phase.