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Wulfey wrote:

This couldn't be clearer. The 9" deepstrike is measured on the hypotenuse. The charge distance is only horizontal for a fly model (usually 4"). And you can UWOF on the first turn because I always put my captain on the board. So for 1CP I get a 4" charge turn 1 if you put something near terrain. It is LOLLLLLL

Wulfey wrote:
GW clarified that the 'no deep strike first turn' doesn't count towards units that start on the board. I always put my captains on the board. The 9" base to base requirement for deepstrike is always measured as a hypotenuse base to base (aka, real world distance). But FLY models have always ignored intervening terrain when calculating charge distances. GW then further says:

Q: When a unit that can Fly declares a charge move against a
unit that is on the upper levels of a ruin, do I need to include
the vertical distance when making the subsequent charge move
for the unit?
A: No. A unit that can Fly effectively ignores vertical
distances when making a charge move. Note though that
the charging unit must still be within 12" (measured
directly ‘base-to-base’, i.e. diagonally) to be able to
declare the charge in the first place.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en-1.pdf

This couldn't be clearer. The 9" deepstrike is measured on the hypotenuse. The charge distance is only horizontal for a fly model (usually 4"). And you can UWOF on the first turn because I always put my captain on the board. So for 1CP I get a 4" charge turn 1 if you put something near terrain. It is LOLLLLLL

Ah. Damn FAQs produce so many more questions.

So, to be clear:
1) Deep strike is measured base-to-base.
2) Charge DECLARATION has to be 12", also base-to-base.
3) Charge DISTANCE uses the horizontal distance.

So elevation gives you a charge distance advantage. Ugh.

EDIT: Yeah. Just watched someone do it. Really ridiculous. I have to be very careful to deploy ontop of buildings now.

Wulfey wrote:


GW clarified that the 'no deep strike first turn' doesn't count towards units that start on the board. I always put my captains on the board. The 9" base to base requirement for deepstrike is always measured as a hypotenuse base to base (aka, real world distance). But FLY models have always ignored intervening terrain when calculating charge distances. GW then further says:

Q: When a unit that can Fly declares a charge move against a
unit that is on the upper levels of a ruin, do I need to include
the vertical distance when making the subsequent charge move
for the unit?
A: No. A unit that can Fly effectively ignores vertical
distances when making a charge move. Note though that
the charging unit must still be within 12" (measured
directly ‘base-to-base’, i.e. diagonally) to be able to
declare the charge in the first place.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en-1.pdf

This couldn't be clearer. The 9" deepstrike is measured on the hypotenuse. The charge distance is only horizontal for a fly model (usually 4"). And you can UWOF on the first turn because I always put my captain on the board. So for 1CP I get a 4" charge turn 1 if you put something near terrain. It is LOLLLLLL

this is correct and a good summary.

So after consulting with the OP Space Vampires in the other tactics thread, I have come up with this list for testing purposes:

Looks pretty cool. I don't have space marines so it's not a path I will be treading myself.

I've been thinking about fielding a Knight again now that turn 1 deep strike can't melt it as automatically.

 ph34r wrote:
Looks pretty cool. I don't have space marines so it's not a path I will be treading myself.

I've been thinking about fielding a Knight again now that turn 1 deep strike can't melt it as automatically.

Just the one? What would you go for?

 Ideasweasel wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Looks pretty cool. I don't have space marines so it's not a path I will be treading myself.

I've been thinking about fielding a Knight again now that turn 1 deep strike can't melt it as automatically.

Just the one? What would you go for?

I'd have to imagine the shooting variant. A melee variant just won't live long enough to be of use in an AdMech list unless other melee distractions are being ran with it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Looks pretty cool. I don't have space marines so it's not a path I will be treading myself.

I've been thinking about fielding a Knight again now that turn 1 deep strike can't melt it as automatically.

Just the one? What would you go for?

I'd have to imagine the shooting variant. A melee variant just won't live long enough to be of use in an AdMech list unless other melee distractions are being ran with it.

I concur. Unless they give you extra attacks for picking a CC weapon they're just never going to be worth it. Or, long shot, if a CC weapon gives them the ability to King Kong flyers. I mean it'll never happen but I'd be so happy to start smacking all these alaitoc hemlocks that apparently exist in the 40k universe now..

Suzuteo wrote:

So, to be clear:
1) Deep strike is measured base-to-base.
2) Charge DECLARATION has to be 12", also base-to-base.
3) Charge DISTANCE uses the horizontal distance.

So elevation gives you a charge distance advantage. Ugh.

EDIT: Yeah. Just watched someone do it. Really ridiculous. I have to be very careful to deploy ontop of buildings now.

just to add... I think you know this, but... just in case... your 3) only applies to units that have fly. Other units need to measure horizontal + vertical which pythagoras tell us is likely to be pretty much impossible.

Josh Death(1st in the whole ITC) is taking Stygies to the London GT. 38 fulgurites 6 dragoons, 2 enginseers, 3x MSU sniper rangers
+ BA supreme(2 packtains(SS, TH), bike techmarine) + IG (3x elysian sniper squads)

I don't even :s Seems bad.

On other news:

Nick played admech on stream with 6 dragoons, 6 balistarii + 3 shield captains + 3 cullexus vs eldar. Admech died and did almost no damage. Allies cleaned up and won ._.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Admech died and did almost no damage. Allies cleaned up and won ._.

A poetic narration of our faction currently. We are the mediocre add-on in Soup, unable to stand on our own against the last... all the Codices.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Nick played admech on stream with 6 dragoons, 6 balistarii + 3 shield captains + 3 cullexus vs eldar. Admech died and did almost no damage. Allies cleaned up and won ._.

That's a terrible list ?

And maybe Eldar is the problem ? Not saying AdMech is brilliant but ofc when you make it face Eldar it's always going to live fast die young.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Nick played admech on stream with 6 dragoons, 6 balistarii + 3 shield captains + 3 cullexus vs eldar. Admech died and did almost no damage. Allies cleaned up and won ._.

Well, if it's a team battle, then it's not too bad. Nick seems to be fielding all the good cavalry there.

Hah! The 6 ballistarii stack as the meta buster. 3+ to hit with +2 from the strategem and rerolling 1s from canticles is hilarious. Take that ELDAR! Too bad they die like flies to 3 damage weapons. I have a new job that pays so I am up to my 5th dragoon kit. Guess I should get a 6th soon. It is super lame that kits like the Onager are kokbloked at 3 kits max in competitive, but dragoons ... just keep adding them ... more is better ...

Wulfey wrote:
Hah! The 6 ballistarii stack as the meta buster. 3+ to hit with +2 from the strategem and rerolling 1s from canticles is hilarious. Take that ELDAR! Too bad they die like flies to 3 damage weapons. I have a new job that pays so I am up to my 5th dragoon kit. Guess I should get a 6th soon. It is super lame that kits like the Onager are kokbloked at 3 kits max in competitive, but dragoons ... just keep adding them ... more is better ...

Dragoons are amazing (once bought, assembled & painted) but I'd argue they're not great against eldar. Theoretically they'll do work but in reality, at least in my experience they're too easy for eldar to outmaneuver. Basically all eldar units either have fly (so they're faster, can't be tied down in combat if it survives & can fly on top of buildings) or are infantry so they hide in buildings. Because of how ruins work those dragoons are quite easily rendered useless then. Obviously this is subject to the amount of terrain on the board though.

Aaaaand I'm an idiot so I for whatever reason forgot that you where talking about balistarii

Depends on the Eldar composition. Dragoons are great tank hunters. And forcing them to remain in cover is fine. That's why we bring (or brought, for some) Cawlstar.

Will the new deathwatch codex help admech as allies?

Not really. Seems like you would want to take a ton of Scouts and Intercessors for a mobile gunline army.

Yeah I checked out the DW leaks and found them wanting. We don't need costly, tough, medium shooting troops. If there were deathwatch scouts or deathwatch scouts bikers ... oh boy yes. The best things in the DW book are deathwatch intercessors ... but we just don't need more mid strength -2 shooting at 36" range (hello dakkabots). After my last tournament where celestine really let me down a few times, I am thinking of running the following this Saturdey. Dropping her to take mephiston and dropping her 100 point girl escort for some extra guard bodies for more CP. This list bases at 18 CP and can get access to 5+/5+ from the guard WL and then another 5+ recycling that stacks with the Veritas Vitae captain relic. I am going to run some node sims to see if stacking CP recycling that high is worth the -2 CP and relic slot at the start of the game. Because refunded CP can themselves be refunded later in the game, double dipping on refunds could be decisive.

<NOT SURE> battalion - 2x commanders, 3x guardsmen, 1x mortar team
<MARS> battalion - Cawl, engi, 5x dakkabots, 3x rangers, 2x icarus (neutron let me down, might as well have anti flier)
BLANGELS battalion - 2x slamcaptain, Mephiston, 3x5 bolter scouts with stormbolter/chainsword seargants (this is the best equip, marking it down here)

Slam captains utterly obviate neutrons. If I have 18 base CP ... why bring a neutron to do spare smashes job? And I am considering TALLARN just so I can threaten to keep the guard off the board until turn 3 to contest objectives against certain gunline opponnents. And TALLARN can advance and still first rank fire second rank fire at full BS, which is kinda hillarious versus cultists.

EDIT: other lesson from last tourney: skitarii troops are bad. Like real bad. They will placed out of LOS or bubble wrapping characters to prevent first turn flyer snipes and hiding on the back of the board all game. Rangers are good for being cheap and good for hiding. They killed maybe 3 or 4 ELDAR rangers and 2 scouts all tournament, that is it.

EDIT2: I EDIT3: DO really miss my basilisks. They are great against things without -1 to be hit that are trying to hide. And that is good. But they won't help me against hard opponents the same way smash captains save me against the hardest of things. If I wasn't running admech I would bring them because they do a similar role to the onagers. But due to cawls aura I think the icarus's profoundly accurate firepower (since I have the CP to give one of them +2 to hit per turn) will do me more.

@Wulfey
Why not Hammer of Baal instead of Veritas Vitae? I mean, since he gets Overwatched and killed relatively soon, I would not want a support relic on him.

And per the ongoing discussion in the other thread, I'm not convinced that two Captains is optimal. Captain + Lemartes is point efficient and super consistent, and Captain + Mephiston seem to be the all-in, high damage option.

Here is my theorycraft list:

I've also got a Stygies version with 10x Death Company. That one is much less CP hungry, but it seems to be at odds with itself. Too much assault actually undermines the artillery component of the army.

Anyhow, still have to actually build my BA characters and deal with more work travel. But maybe I will be able to get some games in this summer.

I bought a set of three (ab)used Stormcast Eternals on eBay for $15. Bought some bits for $20. Going to strip and kitbash Slamguinius, Lemartes, and The Sanguinor for roughly $12 each.

I like the stormcast being the basis for the smash captains. I used primaris marines + a vanguard veteran kit for the weapons and the jetpacks. Having played 2 captains, my argument is that more CP => more damage. Having 2 really hit hard. You would be surprised how often you can deny overwatch just by putting a slam captain behind some wall. I get lemartes as being good provided you give him good targets. He has to be aimed at things that aren't big vehicles because he is only S6. I like the second captain because he is a second devastating missile to wreck some giant monster or giant vehicle that my robots can't kill.





https://imgur.com/a/ms79CSu

EDIT: on the list above, yes, I am so close to running that. I think it is strong and works basically right. I am putting the Icarus above the Basilisk and one more robot right now. But I think it is a very close call. And yes, I like the basic GUARD + ADMECH + BLANGELS list a lot right now.

EDIT2: here is what we are contrasting:

Slam2 + Mephiston + 2x Icarus + mortar team

Lemartes(orSlam2) + 3x basilisks + 1x robot

Okay now the basilisks and another robot are looking good. Slam2 is easier to play than mephiston and then I have 1 less model to paint. This also speeds up my shooting phase a lot.

EDIT3: you convinced me. Basilisks are back on the table. Smash caps really love killing fliers. Don't need icarus.

Wulfey wrote:
Yeah I checked out the DW leaks and found them wanting. We don't need costly, tough, medium shooting troops. If there were deathwatch scouts or deathwatch scouts bikers ... oh boy yes. The best things in the DW book are deathwatch intercessors ... but we just don't need more mid strength -2 shooting at 36" range (hello dakkabots). After my last tournament where celestine really let me down a few times, I am thinking of running the following this Saturdey. Dropping her to take mephiston and dropping her 100 point girl escort for some extra guard bodies for more CP. This list bases at 18 CP and can get access to 5+/5+ from the guard WL and then another 5+ recycling that stacks with the Veritas Vitae captain relic. I am going to run some node sims to see if stacking CP recycling that high is worth the -2 CP and relic slot at the start of the game. Because refunded CP can themselves be refunded later in the game, double dipping on refunds could be decisive.

<NOT SURE> battalion - 2x commanders, 3x guardsmen, 1x mortar team
<MARS> battalion - Cawl, engi, 5x dakkabots, 3x rangers, 2x icarus (neutron let me down, might as well have anti flier)
BLANGELS battalion - 2x slamcaptain, Mephiston, 3x5 bolter scouts with stormbolter/chainsword seargants (this is the best equip, marking it down here)

Slam captains utterly obviate neutrons. If I have 18 base CP ... why bring a neutron to do spare smashes job? And I am considering TALLARN just so I can threaten to keep the guard off the board until turn 3 to contest objectives against certain gunline opponnents. And TALLARN can advance and still first rank fire second rank fire at full BS, which is kinda hillarious versus cultists.

EDIT: other lesson from last tourney: skitarii troops are bad. Like real bad. They will placed out of LOS or bubble wrapping characters to prevent first turn flyer snipes and hiding on the back of the board all game. Rangers are good for being cheap and good for hiding. They killed maybe 3 or 4 ELDAR rangers and 2 scouts all tournament, that is it.

EDIT2: I EDIT3: DO really miss my basilisks. They are great against things without -1 to be hit that are trying to hide. And that is good. But they won't help me against hard opponents the same way smash captains save me against the hardest of things. If I wasn't running admech I would bring them because they do a similar role to the onagers. But due to cawls aura I think the icarus's profoundly accurate firepower (since I have the CP to give one of them +2 to hit per turn) will do me more.

What made you flip flop from mars to stygies and back to mars? Did you find the dragoons struggle against flyers and ruin abuse?

I would need to build and full paint a fresh dragoon and my shadowsword isn't even close to ready. I converted it up to have some custom sponsons and reused the stormlord cannon to count as 4 heavy bolters in a flipped upside down turret. I think it looks like a CIWS. The flipped stormlord frame gives it a good 20 degrees depression and 40 degrees elevation. I have it mounted a magnet so it can spin. But the point is with work and gym and gf time, I don't have the 8 hours of work the shadowsword needs to be ready for this saturday tournament. But my slam captains and basilisks and robots are all good to go. Just need a few touch ups on my rangers. The Kastle Konflict crew insists not on just 3 colors, but basic tabletop standard or you get whacked (with nasty per unit strategems too).



EDIT: on the veritas vitae, I am going to run some simulations tonight on node. I will have an answer by tomorrow. I usually just run hammer of baal cause it is dope.

By the way those captain conversions look sweet. Good job

I highly recommend Stormcast Prosecutors for Blood Angels characters. The baroque armor is ideal for BA; just remove some of the lightning bolts and stick backpacks, pouches, and Space Marine shoulders and heads on them. And with a little green stuff, you can make the meteor emblems on the giant wings into blood drops.

Neat shadowsword. What list to support it?

 ph34r wrote:
Neat shadowsword. What list to support it?

Hi ph34r

I think he posted it a couple of pages back. Do a search on him and I’m sure you will find it. Had 5 dragoons in it and some guard plus slam etc

Wulfey wrote:
Hah! The 6 ballistarii stack as the meta buster. 3+ to hit with +2 from the strategem and rerolling 1s from canticles is hilarious. Take that ELDAR! Too bad they die like flies to 3 damage weapons. I have a new job that pays so I am up to my 5th dragoon kit. Guess I should get a 6th soon. It is super lame that kits like the Onager are kokbloked at 3 kits max in competitive, but dragoons ... just keep adding them ... more is better ...

It's nonsense that Onagers can't be fielded in squadrons now that we're seeing the beta testing of 'rule of 3' for tournaments.
It would be one thing if the Emanatus Forcefields were still as strong as they were last edition, but they're really not that impressive now.

What would people think of Emanatus Forcefields granting a 6+ Invulnerable Save to friendly <Forge World> Infantry models within 6" and going back to +1 to the Invulnerable Save for Onager Dunecrawlers within 6"; capping out at a 3+?

Our troops alreay have a 6++, so really no point.

 lash92 wrote:
Our troops alreay have a 6++, so really no point.

Sure there would be...
Making "Bionics" a not sucky rule! We get a 6+ invulnerable save while frigging Poxwalkers get the ability to shrug off individual Wounds after failing their 7+ saves?

Admittedly this line of thinking might be better served in Proposed Rules.

Also, interestingly enough we do have a troop type without Bionics...the standard Servitor! Why he doesn't have Bionics, who knows.