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2017/10/05 14:14:39
Subject: Re:Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
Luke_Prowler wrote: Can I just say, regardless anything else, that it's hard to be sympathetic with a side of an argument if one of the points they make is the *threat of violence* if they don't get their way?
It's not a threat. It's a guarantee. Any gun grab in the USA is going to cost lives - lots of em. I'm also not sure where you are coming from ether because both sides are threatening violence.
Wow, congratulations on 100% not sating my concerns or fears. Reread what you said in a mobster voice and maybe you'll consider why I called it a threat.
Good. Its MEANT to be a threat. You want a civil war, this is how you get a civil war.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2017/10/05 14:18:45
Subject: Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
d-usa wrote: Other than the one that kicked out the English, how many uprisings and civil wars have been successful?
I'll let Fraz answer that one.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
2017/10/05 14:25:06
Subject: Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
Xenomancers wrote: Huge ubran environment with endless supply of small arms and ammunition and skilled shooters? Many capable of making their own ammunition? In a real insurgency situation in the US. You'd need a 20 million man army to hold any ground.
No, you wouldn't, because you aren't considering a realistic scenario. You're neglecting two factors that make civilian guns useless:
1) A situation where violent resistance is morally justified implies an oppressive and thoroughly evil government. You know, the sort of government that doesn't care too much about killing too many people and will just bomb resistance into submission without concern for collateral damage. Insurgencies fighting the current US military can succeed because the US has to at least pretend to care about hurting innocent victims. They have to send in soldiers on the ground to act as police, they can't just call in a B-52 strike and flatten any town that shows signs of disobedience. If the US occupation force didn't have any moral limits the effectiveness of those insurgencies would be vastly diminished.
2) A situation where violent resistance is morally justified is not going to magically happen out of nowhere. The government is not going to go full Nazi just for fun, it's going to start doing awful things because the people who voted for that government want it. It isn't just going to be an occupation force that a resistance group has to fight, it's going to be their fellow citizens. Where are you going to go when your neighbors hate you and will cheer on the police as they come to drag you off to the death camps? Who is going to fight alongside you? What good is your AR-15 going to do when a vigilante mob with their own AR-15s shoots you, while the police stand by and watch? Resistance against an occupying foreign power can work when the majority of the population supports the resistance even if they aren't brave enough to fight directly, and can provide the cover the resistance needs to operate successfully. It's a very different situation when you're talking about resistance against a domestic threat that the majority of the population voted to create.
The simple fact here is that the idea of random civilians with AR-15s opposing tyranny is wishful thinking at best, and fantasies about murdering government officials because of a dispute over tax rates at its worst.
No one said it would be pretty. It would be downright ugly. Also - I wasn't considering a full Nazi style government that would be okay with destroying half of it's cities to end long hold outs. It's also reasonable to assume that such a government would have the entirety of the world against it - in which a large local resistance force willing to do daring gak because their cities are being destroyed would be extremely useful. There is also no way the US war-machine could run without it's infrastructure intact and US infrastructure is dangerously weak.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2017/10/05 14:25:41
Subject: Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
d-usa wrote: Other than the one that kicked out the English, how many uprisings and civil wars have been successful?
In the US North American Territory?
*USA
*Texas
*California
*Comanche Nation
*Red Cloud
*Republic of Jones
*Old Coke
Failures:
*Shay's rebellion
*The War of Southern Plantation Owners
*Seminoles, Sioux, Arapaho, Cheyenne, Comanche, Kiowa, Black Foot, Crow....
*White Lightning Wars
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2017/10/05 14:31:37
Subject: Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
d-usa wrote: Other than the one that kicked out the English, how many uprisings and civil wars have been successful?
The Civil war would have been over in months if Lee took Washington when he could have. He - as a true believer in the nation - did not want to sac his own capital city. He wanted a political solution at that point. If he could have seen the future - he would have gone on the offensive right there - nothing would could have stopped him.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2017/10/05 14:42:18
Subject: Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
d-usa wrote: Other than the one that kicked out the English, how many uprisings and civil wars have been successful?
The Civil war would have been over in months if Lee took Washington when he could have. He - as a true believer in the nation - did not want to sac his own capital city. He wanted a political solution at that point. If he could have seen the future - he would have gone on the offensive right there - nothing would could have stopped him.
Well thats subject to another thread. Also Lee wasn't in charge of anything if you recollect, only after Bull Run I.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2017/10/05 15:06:20
Subject: Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
d-usa wrote: Other than the one that kicked out the English, how many uprisings and civil wars have been successful?
The Civil war would have been over in months if Lee took Washington when he could have. He - as a true believer in the nation - did not want to sac his own capital city. He wanted a political solution at that point. If he could have seen the future - he would have gone on the offensive right there - nothing would could have stopped him.
Well thats subject to another thread. Also Lee wasn't in charge of anything if you recollect, only after Bull Run I.
True - good memory. Point is that the confederates could have won the war after bullrun if they seized the initiative. Lee was commander of virgina forces at that time - he could and considered launching the attack.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/05 15:10:05
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2017/10/05 15:10:56
Subject: Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
djones520 wrote: So you're afraid that the US government will become a totalitarian system that will ignore the rules that are in place to guide it, and completely denounce everything the nation has stood for, for over two hundred years, in an attempt to break into our homes and take our property away from us?
Yeah, I could see how that would be a fearful thing.
Let's be realistic here, the right to own any gun you want is hardly "everything the nation has stood for", and opposition to the idea of the government taking your property hasn't stopped us from banning stuff in the past. Confiscating illegal guns is not any different from confiscating illegal drugs.
It's completely different.
No where in the Constitution the right to illegal drugs is in the text. You can make the case that the Federal government, by virtue of the 10th amendment, shouldn't have any laws regard illicit drugs and leave it to the states to make that determination.
Whereas you have the 2nd Amendment that expressly confirms right to self defense (...people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed).
So... yeah... the nation has stood for quite a long time with 2nd Amendment protecting this inalienable right.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2017/10/05 15:14:40
Subject: Re:Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
I don't think "feeling safer" is a valid response. You can feel safer with or without guns, and many (perhaps most) people feel safer without -- either way you might be right or wrong abuot your feeling, and changing it would be a matter of emotional education.
However you can't go stalking or target shooting without guns.
The Nation stood because people agreed that it should remain standing, and people with guns have been taking away these inalienable rights from huge numbers since the day it was founded.
Politicians don’t touch the 2nd because they like having a job and getting the power and attention that comes with being a representative, not because they are afraid of angry folks with guns.
2017/10/05 15:46:40
Subject: Re:Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
To move away from the historical/civil war arguments here, and back on to current affairs, it appears that bipartisan momentum to ban bump fire stocks exists.
Whether this will go ahead or not is anyone's guess, though with a GOP house, senate, presidency and SC, I would be surprised.
Personally, on the subject, I guess I don't care that much either way, I always found bump stocks to be more of a gimmick than anything else, mostly useful for turning dollars into noise for people to be impressed on YouTube or having silly fun at a range, and are prone to reliability and functionality issues on top of being awkward to use, though I'm also of the opinion that, given their gimmicky nature and the fact that you can replicate their effect with a belt loop and a thumb pretty easily, the rush to ban these feels more like a bandwagon "we're doing *something*" attempt to snag politcally low hanging fruit, mainly for publicity's own sake. Wont be terribly impressed, bothered, upset, disappointed or excited either way.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2017/10/05 16:07:24
Subject: Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
Imagine you're caught in a parallel twilight zone universe for today.
Someone approaches you and offers you a choice.
If you give up all your guns right now, and promise never to buy another one, he would undo the massacre in Las Vegas. If you choose to keep your guns, or refuse to make the promise, the massacre stands.
What do you do?
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
2017/10/05 16:13:13
Subject: Re:Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
Rather personally disturbing news that this donkey-cave was looking...and had booked hotel rooms...at Lollapalooza this year. My Godson and two of his friends attended the festival and stayed with us while they were in town.
Imagine you're caught in a parallel twilight zone universe for today.
Someone approaches you and offers you a choice.
If you give up all your guns right now, and promise never to buy another one, he would undo the massacre in Las Vegas. If you choose to keep your guns, or refuse to make the promise, the massacre stands.
What do you do?
Does it include the thousands of plastic guns we all play with? if so no dice.
Imagine you're caught in a parallel twilight zone universe for today.
Someone approaches you and offers you a choice.
If you give up all your guns right now, and promise never to buy another one, he would undo the massacre in Las Vegas. If you choose to keep your guns, or refuse to make the promise, the massacre stands.
What do you do?
Tell him he's a dick for extorting people instead of just using that magic time machine to go back in time and stop the massacre.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/05 16:18:38
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
djones520 wrote: So you're afraid that the US government will become a totalitarian system that will ignore the rules that are in place to guide it, and completely denounce everything the nation has stood for, for over two hundred years, in an attempt to break into our homes and take our property away from us?
Yeah, I could see how that would be a fearful thing.
Let's be realistic here, the right to own any gun you want is hardly "everything the nation has stood for", and opposition to the idea of the government taking your property hasn't stopped us from banning stuff in the past. Confiscating illegal guns is not any different from confiscating illegal drugs.
It's completely different.
No where in the Constitution the right to illegal drugs is in the text. You can make the case that the Federal government, by virtue of the 10th amendment, shouldn't have any laws regard illicit drugs and leave it to the states to make that determination.
Whereas you have the 2nd Amendment that expressly confirms right to self defense (...people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed).
So... yeah... the nation has stood for quite a long time with 2nd Amendment protecting this inalienable right.
The constitution can and has been changed over time. The interpretation and application of the constitution's contents can and have changed over time. The constitution is not some kind of divine absolute handed down from on high, the contents are neither self-justifying nor self-implementing. The idea that one particular interpretation, of one particular passage that happens to be the popular convention at the moment is hardly a sound ground on which to make grand claims in broad terms of what the nation does, has or should stand for.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/05 16:29:46
2017/10/05 16:23:39
Subject: Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
Imagine you're caught in a parallel twilight zone universe for today.
Someone approaches you and offers you a choice.
If you give up all your guns right now, and promise never to buy another one, he would undo the massacre in Las Vegas. If you choose to keep your guns, or refuse to make the promise, the massacre stands.
What do you do?
Keep my guns.
Now proceed to label me as some sort of heartless monster, as that's evidently your desire with this bait question.
"The Omnissiah is my Moderati"
2017/10/05 16:25:25
Subject: Re:Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
Does anyone know why the guy did it? I can't just wrap my head around the motive.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
2017/10/05 16:26:38
Subject: Re:Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
Imagine you're caught in a parallel twilight zone universe for today.
Someone approaches you and offers you a choice.
If you give up all your guns right now, and promise never to buy another one, he would undo the massacre in Las Vegas. If you choose to keep your guns, or refuse to make the promise, the massacre stands.
What do you do?
Tell him he's a dick for extorting people instead of just using that magic time machine to go back in time and stop the massacre.
Tell him he's thinking much too small by focusing on the Vegas attack to save 50 when he could go back in time and stop Hitler or Jesus and save millions of lives instead.
2017/10/05 16:30:41
Subject: Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
d-usa wrote: The Nation stood because people agreed that it should remain standing, and people with guns have been taking away these inalienable rights from huge numbers since the day it was founded.
Politicians don’t touch the 2nd because they like having a job and getting the power and attention that comes with being a representative, not because they are afraid of angry folks with guns.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2017/10/05 16:32:35
Subject: Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
djones520 wrote: So you're afraid that the US government will become a totalitarian system that will ignore the rules that are in place to guide it, and completely denounce everything the nation has stood for, for over two hundred years, in an attempt to break into our homes and take our property away from us?
Yeah, I could see how that would be a fearful thing.
Let's be realistic here, the right to own any gun you want is hardly "everything the nation has stood for", and opposition to the idea of the government taking your property hasn't stopped us from banning stuff in the past. Confiscating illegal guns is not any different from confiscating illegal drugs.
It's completely different.
No where in the Constitution the right to illegal drugs is in the text. You can make the case that the Federal government, by virtue of the 10th amendment, shouldn't have any laws regard illicit drugs and leave it to the states to make that determination.
Whereas you have the 2nd Amendment that expressly confirms right to self defense (...people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed).
So... yeah... the nation has stood for quite a long time with 2nd Amendment protecting this inalienable right.
If the right to keep and bear Arms is inalienable, why aren't you allowed to own a battleship, or a nuclear weapon? I'll give you a hint: because it's not actually inalienable.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2017/10/05 16:35:27
Subject: Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
Imagine you're caught in a parallel twilight zone universe for today.
Someone approaches you and offers you a choice.
If you give up all your guns right now, and promise never to buy another one, he would undo the massacre in Las Vegas. If you choose to keep your guns, or refuse to make the promise, the massacre stands.
What do you do?
Tell him he's a dick for extorting people instead of just using that magic time machine to go back in time and stop the massacre.
Tell him he's thinking much too small by focusing on the Vegas attack to save 50 when he could go back in time and stop Hitler or Jesus and save millions of lives instead.
This is all very silly and off topic and Marmatag should feel bad for fishing with such low quality bait.
A good take on time travel and changing history is Stephen King's 11/22/63, which deals with the JFK assassination. Like most King books, it's a great story, and it appears he did his research (within the bounds of a fictional book that has time travel)
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
2017/10/05 16:39:38
Subject: Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
Imagine you're caught in a parallel twilight zone universe for today.
Someone approaches you and offers you a choice.
If you give up all your guns right now, and promise never to buy another one, he would undo the massacre in Las Vegas. If you choose to keep your guns, or refuse to make the promise, the massacre stands.
What do you do?
An interesting thought experiment. I would say no - heres why. Assuming this guy was crazy and just wanted to kill people and being a millionaire - he easily could have acquired an explosive device which could have caused much more damage.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2017/10/05 16:40:35
Subject: Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
It's not bait, it's the decision the American people make every day, except the event has yet to happen.
May as well make a placeholder thoughts and prayers thread for the next inevitable shooting.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
2017/10/05 16:41:38
Subject: Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
d-usa wrote: The Nation stood because people agreed that it should remain standing, and people with guns have been taking away these inalienable rights from huge numbers since the day it was founded.
Politicians don’t touch the 2nd because they like having a job and getting the power and attention that comes with being a representative, not because they are afraid of angry folks with guns.
I’m not taking about deaths, I’m taking about inalienable rights.
Slavery, segregation, internment camps, treatment of Native Americans, police abuse. And that’s the loss of alianable rights at the hand of the good guys with guns while the other good guys with guns are standing by to fight off the tyrannical government if they ever come for their inalienable rights.
2017/10/05 16:44:02
Subject: Re:Active Shooter in Las Vegas Attacks Country Music Festival with Automatic Weapon
Pulled this from several twittah post and websites:
Yesterday's press conf... (warning, it's long):
TIMELINE:
*10:05pm shooting begins. Suspect on 32nd floor.
*10:12pm First two officers arrive on 31st floor stating gunfire origin on 32nd floor.
*10:15pm Last shots fired by suspect.
*10:17pm First two officers arrive on 32nd floor.
*10:18pm Security guard, Jose Campos tells police he was shot and exact room location.
*10:26-10:30pm Eight additional officers arrive on 32nd floor. Begins evacuation.
*10:55pm Eight additional officers arrive at suspect hotel room door.
*11:20pm Initial room breach. Suspect located. 2nd Door (room) identified.
*11:27pm Second breach, 2nd room. Radio: All Clear – Suspect Down.
I'm amazed at how quickly the police got to the floor...
*Paddock led a secretive life. No social media presence.
*Paddock previously scouted a prior venue.
*over 200 strafing rounds were fired through the door at the responding Mandalay Bay security guard, Jose Campos.
*several of the weapons Paddock was using jammed during the shooting.
*gunman had an apparent escape strategy (unidentified).
*non of the cameras discovered (4) were recording.
*suspect vehicle held ten 1lb containers of tannerite explosive. Two 20lb containers of tannerite and an additional 1,600 rounds of ammunition.
*no idea why Paddock did not utilize explosives. Why bring them?
*police still seeking tips on Stephen Paddock activity for months, weeks, days up to the event.
*motive still unknown. Local LEO does not know results from FBI interview with Ms. Danley.
*the possibility of an accomplice is strong.
*there was a great deal of premeditation involved in carrying out this attack.
*possibility of Paddock having done pre-surveillance of alternate attack venue.
*thousands of rounds of ammunition present in room.
*no suicide note was found in the room.
*assumption is Paddock stopped shooting because security guard knock spooked him.
*Paddock was gambling at some points prior to the shooting. Did not appear to have companion for gambling.
*Paddock purchased 33 weapons in October 2016. Police are interested in what took place in/around October 2016 to elicit his bulk purchase of firearms.
*police see evidence he planned to survive and escape. Would not elaborate.
*residence in Reno large ammo and firearms. Residence in Mesquite large ammo and firearms. All indications point toward having some form of assistance.
Google map is pretty good if you take the time to fiddle with it... but, I'm not sure how I can post just the image. Here's a good one when fished from google images (look at center slide):
The Empire 
1500 pts
: 
