Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

To be fair, he was probably too busy complaining about how much Chaos sucks to notice anything else.

I remember the very hilarious time where in 40k General Discussion we had at the same time two threads, one about how Necrons where totally broken and OP and other about how they where trash tier and unplayable

Man, with all these people defending op stuff by with arguments like "they are being hysterical and over reacting, we just need to wait and see and give it time, how do you even know it's op if you haven't played against it 200+ times" I've got the worst feeling of deja vu. Almost like I saw this same thing happen not that long ago, with a lot of the same posters making the same arguments. Hmm... how'd that turn out again?

If you defended conscripts or scions and the like a few months ago, maybe sit this one out. Maybe realize some things can be obviously overpowered, and we don't need a thousand hours of empirical study to recognize it. Pattern recognition is a really useful skill I encourage everyone to utilize.

Conscripts are by all mathematical metric, more powerfull than before, thats a fact. But GW at least recognised that they where powerfull. Now we only need to wait if they try again with another nerf for a more fine tuning.

And for Scions I don't know what to say. Their Regimental Doctrines, Orders, etc... are pretty crappy, and with Plasma literally doubling in points for them, and the nerfs to Command Squad Spam, I think they are still powerfull but not as broken as before.

And some Baneblade variants, like the Shadowsword (That probably with a 2d3 was good enough), are in my opinion, over-buffed. I think the +1d6 hits and removing the -1 to hit for moving was enough. The rest of the changes without a more practical scrutiny of the different combos of the codex seems strong and balanced but not OP. Thats why I voted "Slighly overpowered", even if I'm been defending the codex for all the vaible builds it allows for the army.

Warlords Traits and Relics I can agree that need a revision, some are just all out better versions that the ones of the other Codex.

SilverAlien wrote:
Man, with all these people defending op stuff by with arguments like "they are being hysterical and over reacting, we just need to wait and see and give it time, how do you even know it's op if you haven't played against it 200+ times" I've got the worst feeling of deja vu. Almost like I saw this same thing happen not that long ago, with a lot of the same posters making the same arguments. Hmm... how'd that turn out again?

Are you referring to the doom saying over World Eater Khorne Berserkers killing the world 20 time over in one turnthat was around before the Chaos book was released? The apparently so horribly broken thing that no one talks about anymore?

 Sim-Life wrote:
Are you referring to the doom saying over World Eater Khorne Berserkers killing the world 20 time over in one turnthat was around before the Chaos book was released? The apparently so horribly broken thing that no one talks about anymore?

Nah, even back then people just pointed to their fragility and the way fallback worked to explain why it wasn't an issue. That was teething pains moving to 8e and getting a handle on the rules. I'm talking about how people were still making these arguments about guard and conscripts a month after 8e launched.

 Sim-Life wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Man, with all these people defending op stuff by with arguments like "they are being hysterical and over reacting, we just need to wait and see and give it time, how do you even know it's op if you haven't played against it 200+ times" I've got the worst feeling of deja vu. Almost like I saw this same thing happen not that long ago, with a lot of the same posters making the same arguments. Hmm... how'd that turn out again?

Are you referring to the doom saying over World Eater Khorne Berserkers killing the world 20 time over in one turnthat was around before the Chaos book was released? The apparently so horribly broken thing that no one talks about anymore?

No, Silveralien seems to be evolving into Dakka's version of Alex Jones.

Step 1: Claim everything is OP broken and going to ruin the game.

Step 2: wait for something to win tournaments

Step 3: Is it one of the things you said was OP broken and going to ruin the game? Therefore you were right, you predicted it, and now you are the authority on everything going forward.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:
No codex in hand yet and ~80% of the game is still running out of their index lists.

It's definitely time to jump to conclusions, the broader the better.

Remember when everyone was "jumping to conclusions" about the issues with conscripts and plasma scions? Right.

Conscripts yes, Scions no. Scions actually came completely out of left field before the first major tournament and from the reactions most people didn't even think it would be a thing (and managed to be consistently on top more than conscripts).

Basically the internet got one right and one wrong. i.e: a coin toss is about as reliable.

 Galas wrote:

This is a little "Post hoc ergo propter hoc". Many people flipped the table about Necrons, aboud Berzerkers, Ork Boyz, about Genestealers, about Noisy Marines. And even if some of those units are good, they wheren't broken. Now is easy to ignore the ones that failed to predicted what where gonna be OP and stick with the 1-2 ones that where right.

I don't really remember this. Like, yes, you can find people who were freaking out about all of these things, but overall my sense is that "the internet" did a really good job of working out what was good very early on. People very quickly spotted Guilliman, Razorbacks, Stormravens, Celestine, Conscripts, Scions, and Horrors. I remember Guilliman in particular coming up more than anything else early on. I don't remember any significant number of people predicting that Boyz or Noise Marines or Berzerkers would be way too good. People thought that Genestealers looked like one of the most solid CC units around, and this is still true, and when Cult Genestealers got a price cut to 10 points there was a lot of concern which GW apparently shared since they quickly faq'd them again. We had a couple people worried about Necrons, but two points about that: first, lots of these people are still convinced that Warriors are far too durable, so what seems to be going on here is just that these are not the greatest players, and, second, obviously there's a question of whether it's the same people now complaining about Guard. Like, are there people who have been consistently very good about predicting what's going to be really powerful? The fact that there are other people who are bad at this doesn't seem to mean we shouldn't pay attention to the first group -- I mean, there are people who have been arguing for months that Conscripts were basically fine. My overall impression is that a surprisingly large number of people pretty much nailed it. The conventional wisdom was basically dead on, in the sense of "what does it seem like a large majority of players are worried about?" This was especially true if you applied the most basic of competence filters, discounting people not for their opinions but for just clearly having bad intuitions about the dice rolls involved (for example, the people insisting that flyers had become terrible because they were no longer hit only on 6s or that heavy bolters are a specialized gun for killing Conscripts -- this was always just provably wrong with simple math). I think you could probably say that, early on, people were overestimating the strength of CC units slightly, but this does not strike me as a devastating criticism, and it probably doesn't mean much for how we should interpret predictions about the new Guard codex since clearly the issue there was not about the specific units but about how they fit into all of the new rules for 8th edition.

The big misses were in the other direction, mostly -- people missed a few units that turned out to be way too powerful. But I think this was generally not because they misevaluated them but because they just didn't think about them at all. Nobody expected Ravenwing Flocks to be playable, but not because anyone had actually asked themselves whether Ravenwing Flocks looked good. They just assumed that of course Ravenwings are bad. GW seems to have just assumed this too; they didn't want anyone to actually use them, and they've since made this clear. Malefic Lords also took a while to become an object of concern, probably because they're tucked away in the Chaos supplement to the Forgeworld Imperial Guard index.

Hey guys! You know that AM index that has been dominating with like a 80% Win Rate? Yeah...they got a bunch of free rules, unit point cost reductions. Lets wait to pass judgement though. It's possible the codex got worse while getting free rules and point cost reductions.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hey guys! You know that AM index that has been dominating with like a 80% Win Rate? Yeah...they got a bunch of free rules, unit point cost reductions. Lets wait to pass judgement though. It's possible the codex got worse while getting free rules and point cost reductions.

On the plus side you might wiped off the table by different AM units than in the last 3 months.

Tyel wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hey guys! You know that AM index that has been dominating with like a 80% Win Rate? Yeah...they got a bunch of free rules, unit point cost reductions. Lets wait to pass judgement though. It's possible the codex got worse while getting free rules and point cost reductions.

On the plus side you might wiped off the table by different AM units than in the last 3 months.

Plus, now I get to go back to using my R&H+demon list I was forced to play due to the general uselessness of my CSM. Won't that be fun, I once again get to ignore the factions I really want to play. At least outside of friendly games where no one is optimizing their armies. Such a wonderful resurgence of all that made last edition "great".

Does anyone disagree that Codex IG is notably more powerful than all other codices from 8th?

SilverAlien wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hey guys! You know that AM index that has been dominating with like a 80% Win Rate? Yeah...they got a bunch of free rules, unit point cost reductions. Lets wait to pass judgement though. It's possible the codex got worse while getting free rules and point cost reductions.

On the plus side you might wiped off the table by different AM units than in the last 3 months.

Plus, now I get to go back to using my R&H+demon list I was forced to play due to the general uselessness of my CSM. Won't that be fun, I once again get to ignore the factions I really want to play. At least outside of friendly games where no one is optimizing their armies. Such a wonderful resurgence of all that made last edition "great".

What a huge disappointment. Nothing has changed. No balance - power creep. Mono build armies are not viable. Whats best is we don't even get new models.

Trollbert wrote:
Does anyone disagree that Codex IG is notably more powerful than all other codices from 8th?

One person claimed that guard is now weaker than they were before the codex. Like weaker as a whole, the army itself.

Beyond that singular and very "special" person, yeah I think the consensus is clearly leaning towards a bit over the top. We even have a pretty decent bell curve going on in the poll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
What a huge disappointment. Nothing has changed. No balance - power creep. Mono build armies are not viable. Whats best is we don't even get new models.

I actually feel bad for arguing that everyone getting tactics would be great and wouldn't cause issues, that we shouldn't worry about balance getting ruined a few books in, and that people were worrying too much.

Man, I really need to go back through and find who that person was. They deserve an apology and a chance to say "I told you so".

Majority guard lists with token Celestine or guiliman and/or Culexus assassins already win most tournaments. To the point its guard vs guard in the finals with over half the top 10 lists containing guard.

Codex comes out and boosts the entire index including tournament staples such as scions and taruox primes which now come with even more firepower at a slightly increased cost, command squads, company commanders, astropaths and primaris (which are absolutely brutal now), harker, basilisks, conscripts are arguably better with reroll all hits, every vehicle and artillery is stronger through additional strategems and doctrines.

On top of this GW added new broken combos such as 2++ ogryns that go well with the astropath/primarus spam that was already winning tournaments and near unlimited command points due to a free relic and warlord trait.

for an army that was already winning and considered slightly overpowered it got a boost across the board at worst its still slightly overpowered but its likely very overpowered to all but people in complete denial.

Just waiting for the FW faq to add buffs to even more broken units such as basilisk platforms and elysian plasma spam.

The utterly hysterical, reactionary and salty nature displayed by the usual suspects on Dakka never ceases to make my eyes roll. (Side note, is it just me, or is it the case that Americans are more prone to flouncy hysteria than other nationalities?) The fact is that the codex has not even been released yet, so cannot be properly evaluated within the greater context of the game. Added to this, only a handful of 8th edition codexes have been released so far. With plenty more in the pipeline, the game is still establishing itself, the meta is still evolving and the edition hasn't even had the chance to play through a complete tournament circuit yet. (Meaning a year worth of tournaments for those wanting to jump on that comment with "But I played down a Jim-bob's 40k jamboree with my sister and AM won the coveted golden cabbage" therefore AM=Broken)

I'm not saying that AM isn't over-powered or broken, I'm just saying that there needs to be some time for the codex to play out. The idea that you have people declaring "I'm gonna shelf my AM army because it's soo massively broken" at this early stage is ridonkulous. After a few weeks have passed and having had a chance to experience the codex 'out in the field' then it's entirely possible that there may be a few questionable choices that may need addressing. The main point I would urge for people to keep in mind is to make sure that when comparing AM effectiveness to other factions, that it be done with factions with codexes and not those using the stop-gap index that was never intended as a true reflection of how the army will function throughout the edition.

With two more codexes and chapter approved (along with several FAQ's no doubt) being released before the end of the year. I'd suggest not clutching your pearls and screaming broken until the end of the year. Only then do I think we will have a proper sample of how 8th edition will really play out going forward. At that point, if warranted, the knives can come out.

Again, it's been addressed. We already know how strong guard is from months of play, we know the counters to them, and we can all do math well enough to see the best way to beat guard now is... to just use guard as well.

Even if other codices come out as strongman as guard, what the first five armies with codices just shouldn't even bother?

I mean... what do you think is going to happen to suddenly allow me to clear conscripts more effectively with my already released codex? To not struggle with an army that can mathematically outshoot me with the correct unit choices, regardless of what I bring? What is testing going to accomplish? "Oh that artillery that doesn't need LoS and puts out far more damage than your vehicles, while being protected by a wall of meat shields you also don't have an efficient answer to isn't really that bad. For.... reasons".

We went through this once before this edition, not to mention in previous editions as well. Good lord I have no idea what you people expect to happen to balance this.

This reminds me very much of Skaab Ruinator from MTG's Innistrad block. It was widely considered to be the game-defining card and shot up to 20-30 bucks before it was even released.

Two weeks after the release, it dropped down to 3 bucks because everyone realized that despite it's horrific stats, it's requirement of 3 corpses in the graveyard to summon was pretty easy to counter, even in a deck dedicated to dumping corpses into the graveyard (and innistrad was all about the graveyard). Ironically, Geist of Saint Traft, a card no one even cared about, became the meta-defining card, even long after the block rotated out.

I wonder if we have more of these kinds of threads at this point than we had for GK in 5th ed.

A lot of the things I've read about do sound pretty powerful, however, from what I've seen, power cost went up also (at least in some places). I presume that means that points went up accordingly as well. I've also heard rumblings of Scion and conscript nerfing going on. I don't honestly know how it'll settle until I can actually look at the damn book from cover to cover, and decline to opine beyond what I have already until then.

Could be that it'll be as powerful as everyone is afraid of. Could be it might actually not be as overwhelming as it sounds. At any rate, I'm not going to hyperventilate about it until after this weekend.

Well, the Index was already pretty overpowered. If we compare this codex to the index, and see what's changed, then we can come to a reasonable conclusion as to the strength of the army. And it looks to be very much overpowered.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
This reminds me very much of Skaab Ruinator from MTG's Innistrad block. It was widely considered to be the game-defining card and shot up to 20-30 bucks before it was even released.

Two weeks after the release, it dropped down to 3 bucks because everyone realized that despite it's horrific stats, it's requirement of 3 corpses in the graveyard to summon was pretty easy to counter, even in a deck dedicated to dumping corpses into the graveyard (and innistrad was all about the graveyard). Ironically, Geist of Saint Traft, a card no one even cared about, became the meta-defining card, even long after the block rotated out.

I mean, sure, this could be like [a time when people were wrong to think that something would be too good]. It could also be like [a time when people were right to think that something would be too good].

^ Indeed. It could be either or. So what would you suggest is the best way to act? Clip on a sandwich board and scrawl "The world is going to end" in feces across it, whilst crying uncontrollably and burning all your models? Or chill and see how things play out over the next few weeks?

 Galas wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:
No codex in hand yet and ~80% of the game is still running out of their index lists.

It's definitely time to jump to conclusions, the broader the better.

Remember when everyone was "jumping to conclusions" about the issues with conscripts and plasma scions? Right.

This is a little "Post hoc ergo propter hoc". Many people flipped the table about Necrons, aboud Berzerkers, Ork Boyz, about Genestealers, about Noisy Marines. And even if some of those units are good, they wheren't broken. Now is easy to ignore the ones that failed to predicted what where gonna be OP and stick with the 1-2 ones that where right.

That was literally around 1-3 People on each of those units you listed. That isn't exactly mass hysteria. Multitudes of people are telling you that there is a balance problem with Conscripts, where most of the "nerfs" are a non-issue to begin with.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:
No codex in hand yet and ~80% of the game is still running out of their index lists.

It's definitely time to jump to conclusions, the broader the better.

Remember when everyone was "jumping to conclusions" about the issues with conscripts and plasma scions? Right.

This is a little "Post hoc ergo propter hoc". Many people flipped the table about Necrons, aboud Berzerkers, Ork Boyz, about Genestealers, about Noisy Marines. And even if some of those units are good, they wheren't broken. Now is easy to ignore the ones that failed to predicted what where gonna be OP and stick with the 1-2 ones that where right.

That was literally around 1-3 People on each of those units you listed. That isn't exactly mass hysteria. Multitudes of people are telling you that there is a balance problem with Conscripts, where most of the "nerfs" are a non-issue to begin with.

Read my posts and you'll see that I have never said that Conscripts aren't OP, pre-codex or post-codex!

Some units are still OP, even more so than in the Index, and no doubt powergamers will build really disgusting armies based around those choices.

Others are now viable, where in the Index they were seriously underperforming. You can now build a good AM army without feeling like you need conscripts or whatever. So for some of us, the new Codex is well balanced.


My beloved Vanquishers still get the short end of the stick compared with the other Russ variants though

Remember when Eldar 7th got leaked and things devolved into 2 camps? One side that wasn't completely slowed and could see that 27 points for a scatterlaser on an Eldar jetbike in the troops slot was unbelievably broken and the other side who vigourously maintained that we needed to wait and see how it would play out?

This reminds me of that. A lot. The only consolation I can take away is that there appears to be a significantly smaller number of people who can't see the obvious now than there was back then.

Too early, not seen the full dex yet - however it does seem extremely powerful - hopefully its not a 7th Ed Eldar / Marine dex but it does seem likely and that will be very very bad for the game as the 7th Ed Power Dexes were.

How can you not build a casual list that is fun to play??

the_scotsman wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Man, with all these people defending op stuff by with arguments like "they are being hysterical and over reacting, we just need to wait and see and give it time, how do you even know it's op if you haven't played against it 200+ times" I've got the worst feeling of deja vu. Almost like I saw this same thing happen not that long ago, with a lot of the same posters making the same arguments. Hmm... how'd that turn out again?

Are you referring to the doom saying over World Eater Khorne Berserkers killing the world 20 time over in one turnthat was around before the Chaos book was released? The apparently so horribly broken thing that no one talks about anymore?

No, Silveralien seems to be evolving into Dakka's version of Alex Jones.

Step 1: Claim everything is OP broken and going to ruin the game.

Step 2: wait for something to win tournaments

Step 3: Is it one of the things you said was OP broken and going to ruin the game? Therefore you were right, you predicted it, and now you are the authority on everything going forward.

You almost described me in those steps.

If you make Step 1: Claim conscripts is OP broken and going to ruin the game.

You would have me perfectly. Except I was right about Wave Serpents, I was right about Scatterbikes, I was right about Spore Mines (for different reasons I didn't think of - ala Flyrants), and I am right about Conscripts. I never said a word on Necrons, mathematically they were weaker as well as being stripped of many special rules. I didn't overreact on Beserkers, because they will delete one unit a turn and that is it while being very vulnerable to countercharges and shooting. Death Guard I've been looking at and find them almost as meh as the Admech book. Celestine EVERYONE looked at her rules and saw she was OP. The biggest thing I was wrong about was IG taking at least one SHV in their army no matter what PRE-CODEX; Post-Codex that looks like it will be the case.