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The orders thing hurt the conscripts. No one is denying that. They got army traits though which some are really good.

Lets also not forget the fact that the real reason conscripts are OP is that they cost less than other fodder infantry and they have a better weapon - better abiltiies - and in most cases better saves. They should cost 4 points period.

It's just gonna be funny to watch the balancing going forward considering the methodolgy seems to be 'make the thing worse in a way that doesn't matter and make something that was already okay better!'

Oh noes, gun drones are too good! To balance them we'll make crisis suits cheaper and make drones deepstrike outside of 10"

Oh noes, Girlydude too good, I know! We'll drop centurions 25pts per and drop his imperium buff radius from 12"-11"!

Oh noes, Stormravens too good, better drop it's attacks by 1 and make Devastators weapons 3-7pts cheaper.

Oh noes, Celestine too good, better increase Dominions and immolators by 25pts per unit and bump her up to 300(Because god forbid SoB get anything nice.)

Nope, this codex is broken. I don't need to wait I've seen all the leaks. AM got too many tools when their toolbox was already full. While some armies can counter some of those tools, it's almost impossible to counter them all unless you're playing another AM/IG army.

1) Cheap troops. Conscripts or not, IG has access to numerous cheap troops that can bubblewrap the heavy hitters. Sure they kind of nerfed conscripts, that was a good thing. It doesn't remove the horde though, only shrinking the blob a little and not allowing a 100% chance for orders. The weakness to horde armies should be leadership. Doesn't matter when the commissars in town and you only lose 1 body per turn for battleshock.

2) Orders. There are too many, and they're too powerful. IG can throw out numerous orders each turn and these orders synergize insanely with the army as a whole.

3) Double shooting tanks. Why? Grinding advance allows a double tap? So the army that sits still in a gunline, which is basically just about every IG army, gets a bonus for doing what they're supposed to do. Couple the power of double tapping gunlines with fast units and you have an army that can wait until the last turn or two to start taking objectives.

4) Speed. Move move move can send an IG unit 14"-24" in a turn. Enough to rush forward and grab last second objectives. No other army has troops that fast. Even jump pack troops can only move at the most 18". Apparently IG are faster than even Harlequins and bikes.

5) No-LOS needed units. The guard can sit back and unleash a storm of indirect fire. They could do that earlier. Apparently though the fire needed to get deadlier in the form of -3 basilisk strikes. Why?

6) Stratagems/doctrines/traits make the everyday trooper far more effective than the elite space marines and other elite armies. Double tapping russes with catachan? Sure why not. Nigh invulnerable ogres? Good idea!

Salty? Yes. Feast on my tears, whatever. I know that scions got a points nerf and conscripts were taken down a notch. Good trade though, and I didn't even mention the fact that super heavies now got more shooty and many of the units got cheaper. Yay!

In the edition of soup and blobs, hats off my humble guardsmen, hats off. And yes, I do own IG, along with several other armies. Hopefully this is not the beginning of codex creep or 8th will be all for naught.

ERJAK wrote:
It's just gonna be funny to watch the balancing going forward considering the methodolgy seems to be 'make the thing worse in a way that doesn't matter and make something that was already okay better!'

Oh noes, gun drones are too good! To balance them we'll make crisis suits cheaper and make drones deepstrike outside of 10"

Oh noes, Girlydude too good, I know! We'll drop centurions 25pts per and drop his imperium buff radius from 12"-11"!

Oh noes, Stormravens too good, better drop it's attacks by 1 and make Devastators weapons 3-7pts cheaper.

Oh noes, Celestine too good, better increase Dominions and immolators by 25pts per unit and bump her up to 300(Because god forbid SoB get anything nice.)

Agreed, its very out of character from what they have been doing recently. Maybe FLG had too much of an influence on 'playtesting', Reece does adore his guard :p

Considering the next two codex's out are nids and eldar, will be interesting to see what happens. Will eldar get nerfed admech style? will tyranids finally devour the galaxy?

Tune in next week! Same Bat time, same bat channel.

brother_b wrote:

4) Speed. Move move move can send an IG unit 14"-24" in a turn. Enough to rush forward and grab last second objectives. No other army has troops that fast. Even jump pack troops can only move at the most 18". Apparently IG are faster than even Harlequins and bikes.

This one actually hits me kinda hard, because I feel especially crapped on by it.
In the AdMech I have models that are giant-legged running chicken robots. Their entire schtick is that they move fast, and the model is impossible to ever hide because of that schtick. They're way too gangly, but at least you can really tell they're made for speed. To represent this I get 10" move. That's not bad. Not at all. And then I can use a CP (harumpf, not like I get CP as cheap as AM does, but sure, ok. I spend the CP) and I get a single extra die for the advance. So that puts me at 12-22" movement with my dunestrider.

What the hell? my huge model made specifically to run along the dunes, with its engines jacked up to 11 by using a stratagem, is being outrun by some really motivated conscripts because their officer told them to! I just don't really feel like this is a balanced playing field. Anything anyone can do, AM can do cheaper and better.

Martel732 wrote:
"plus dice dont use the law of mathematics, they use the law of Mechanics "

While technically true, is only relevant in the case of mismolded or loaded dice. For practical purposes, they are random independent events.

No it isnt, you are wrong, there is no other way of putting it, please go and look up what the law of mechanics is, as I believe you are either mis-remembering what it is or simply do not know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion

You saying
" is only relevant in the case of mismolded or loaded dice"
is very disingenuous if you do know what I am referring to and doesnt help the discussion in any way.

 Purifier wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Even when I played space marines, I always planned for horde armies. I love loading up on heavy bolters and assault cannons. Thin the heard while targeting their heavier stuff with your lascannons and missiles. Stop trying to table your opponent and out-think them instead.
Marines have the tools to play the current meta. Try using them and stop looking for silver bullets to win. Remember to engage vehicles so they can't shoot that turn. you don't have to destroy them to neutralize them.

Bubblewrap is made specifically to stop you from engaging vehicles. If you managed to get a charge on a vehicle and every Conscript in that sector isn't dead, then the enemy played their conscripts wildly wrong.

Yes, remember folks, every guard list includes at least 100 conscripts, and every player is an expert at using them. Your opponent will never make mistakes, and would never think about running anything but the most competitive choices. If you put terrain on the table, your opponent will have nothing but conscripts, manticores, and mortar teams across the table from you. This is the nightmare world in which you live - despair!

in a competitive tournament environment, you're going to see lists like that, yes. And people are usually going to string their conscripts correctly, and position them such that you can't encircle one in the front to prevent a fallback, and cover all their tanks such that fast assault units and deep strikers can never get to them, and always hide their characters perfectly out of LOS of all snipers...usually. in a casual, normal play environment, that isn't going to be the case.

Assault is more technical to play in 8th than shooting, that is a definite fact. Shooting is an easier style to play - more stationary positioning decisions, less movement micromanagement. It's easy to screw up a charge-pile in-consolidate sequence to allow vs deny overwatch, allow vs deny fall back, and maximise the number of models available to attack. it's easy to make the wrong choice as to the first unit to attack with and leave yourself open to a counterattack interrupt. It is a lot easier to position your units to get cover, to allow for Heroic Interventions, and to protect characters if you're not planning on doing much movement with them in the game. But saying that because something is more difficult, or takes more thought, means that it is impossible is disingenuous.

So all I have to do for Conscripts to be perfectly balanced is to assume that they either A) don't get fielded at all, or B) are played wrong.

We can end the thread on the worst argument made right there.

No, all you have to do to stop believing that assault is 100% useless all the time is to stop assuming things like "every tank in every single list will have imperial guard conscripts standing in front of it" or "your opponent will never make any kind of micro mistake".

Conscripts are a tournament level unit with a solid place in the current meta. unless you live in the hyper-competitive and increasingly hyperbolic-sounding nightmare world of Martel, you do not have to believe the sky is falling and the game is ruined because they exist.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Maybe Guard just need to suck again I guess, to return balance to the universe or some dumb crap.

There's a huge chunk of the fanbase who want anything that's not loyalist Space Marines to be worthless.

Remember it was only at the tail end of 7th that "CSM players still need to suffer for 3.5 being good" began to end.

I can't wait for the Tau/Eldar codex. It could be total crap, but there'll still be people insisting it needs nerfing to the dirt.

I agree that this resentment will probably remain. In fact, they'd be running me out of town if I said this a year ago, but as a non-Tau player, please buff Riptides; they got the mega-nerf treatment that people currently want to give Conscripts.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The orders thing hurt the conscripts. No one is denying that. They got army traits though which some are really good.

Lets also not forget the fact that the real reason conscripts are OP is that they cost less than other fodder infantry and they have a better weapon - better abiltiies - and in most cases better saves. They should cost 4 points period.

Better weapon?

the_scotsman wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Even when I played space marines, I always planned for horde armies. I love loading up on heavy bolters and assault cannons. Thin the heard while targeting their heavier stuff with your lascannons and missiles. Stop trying to table your opponent and out-think them instead.
Marines have the tools to play the current meta. Try using them and stop looking for silver bullets to win. Remember to engage vehicles so they can't shoot that turn. you don't have to destroy them to neutralize them.

Bubblewrap is made specifically to stop you from engaging vehicles. If you managed to get a charge on a vehicle and every Conscript in that sector isn't dead, then the enemy played their conscripts wildly wrong.

Yes, remember folks, every guard list includes at least 100 conscripts, and every player is an expert at using them. Your opponent will never make mistakes, and would never think about running anything but the most competitive choices. If you put terrain on the table, your opponent will have nothing but conscripts, manticores, and mortar teams across the table from you. This is the nightmare world in which you live - despair!

in a competitive tournament environment, you're going to see lists like that, yes. And people are usually going to string their conscripts correctly, and position them such that you can't encircle one in the front to prevent a fallback, and cover all their tanks such that fast assault units and deep strikers can never get to them, and always hide their characters perfectly out of LOS of all snipers...usually. in a casual, normal play environment, that isn't going to be the case.

Assault is more technical to play in 8th than shooting, that is a definite fact. Shooting is an easier style to play - more stationary positioning decisions, less movement micromanagement. It's easy to screw up a charge-pile in-consolidate sequence to allow vs deny overwatch, allow vs deny fall back, and maximise the number of models available to attack. it's easy to make the wrong choice as to the first unit to attack with and leave yourself open to a counterattack interrupt. It is a lot easier to position your units to get cover, to allow for Heroic Interventions, and to protect characters if you're not planning on doing much movement with them in the game. But saying that because something is more difficult, or takes more thought, means that it is impossible is disingenuous.

So all I have to do for Conscripts to be perfectly balanced is to assume that they either A) don't get fielded at all, or B) are played wrong.

We can end the thread on the worst argument made right there.

No, all you have to do to stop believing that assault is 100% useless all the time is to stop assuming things like "every tank in every single list will have imperial guard conscripts standing in front of it" or "your opponent will never make any kind of micro mistake".

Conscripts are a tournament level unit with a solid place in the current meta. unless you live in the hyper-competitive and increasingly hyperbolic-sounding nightmare world of Martel, you do not have to believe the sky is falling and the game is ruined because they exist.

No matter how many times you keep trying to claim they're balanced because "maybe they won't be used" it keeps sounding just as ridiculous each time.

As a guard player who hasn't had many games with his guard this time around I am looking forward to trying this codex. I play a cadian army that is severely troop heavy. 6 guard squads, 2 command squads, 15 heavy weapon teams, and 1 squad of scions, + charecters. I only own 2 russes (exterminaror and executioner) and 1 chimera, plus 3 sentinals. This has been my guard army since 5th ed, but I'm reality it never has done that we'll.

These changes may make them incredibly effective, but I don't know if it's broke. I still could see a single genestealer killing off a squad in close combat. Trygons with termagaunts and devourers would also wreck face. And imperial players can always take a vindicare assassin and start sniping commissars. Watched a game the other day where 2 vindicares took out a changeling on the Imperial first turn and made all the difference taking out the tzeentch pink horrors with the rest of the armies bolters.

Point is nothing is a vacuum, and I still don't see conscripts as an issue. I run either 2 squads of 3 bikes, all with flamers (two flamers one combiflamer) or 3 land speeders with dual heavy flamers as my swarm counter when I don't know what I will go against and am playing marines. They never let me down. They do die. But they get the job done first.

Also I wonder what Havoc squads, 2 squads of them with heavy bolters, and some bikers would do to conscripts. I don't think infantry would last long against that either.

As for point effective looking at it from that pov your never going to get a good option, but there is more than that. Objectives, mission cards, there can be a large difference between just play to kill and play to win.

 Arkaine wrote:
The only thing Mathhammer assumes are the following six givens

To a degree, but one interesting mathhammer side effect is that a couple weapons look better on paper than they might be in practice, not because mathhammer lies but merely because we use a simplified model.

For example, I and some others consider lascannons one of the more effective anti tank weapons based on mathhammer. However, because it has a large variance on damage, it can result in a fair amount lost damage to overkill. Now, generally most players won't shoot models with one wound remain with such a weapon, assuming they have another alternative, but even 3-4 wounds left leaves a lot of room for overkill. Even with target selection, it's statistically likely that 1-3 wounds will be wasted. For an 11 wound tank, that means you could easily be inflicting around 5/6ths of the wounds you actually are.

Which is in part why plasma is so popular. You can use high damage anti tank weapons for the opening salvo, then fall back on something more easily spread around like overcharged plasma to finish them off, so in practice most people aren't effected by this much.

 Purifier wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Even when I played space marines, I always planned for horde armies. I love loading up on heavy bolters and assault cannons. Thin the heard while targeting their heavier stuff with your lascannons and missiles. Stop trying to table your opponent and out-think them instead.
Marines have the tools to play the current meta. Try using them and stop looking for silver bullets to win. Remember to engage vehicles so they can't shoot that turn. you don't have to destroy them to neutralize them.

Bubblewrap is made specifically to stop you from engaging vehicles. If you managed to get a charge on a vehicle and every Conscript in that sector isn't dead, then the enemy played their conscripts wildly wrong.

Yes, remember folks, every guard list includes at least 100 conscripts, and every player is an expert at using them. Your opponent will never make mistakes, and would never think about running anything but the most competitive choices. If you put terrain on the table, your opponent will have nothing but conscripts, manticores, and mortar teams across the table from you. This is the nightmare world in which you live - despair!

in a competitive tournament environment, you're going to see lists like that, yes. And people are usually going to string their conscripts correctly, and position them such that you can't encircle one in the front to prevent a fallback, and cover all their tanks such that fast assault units and deep strikers can never get to them, and always hide their characters perfectly out of LOS of all snipers...usually. in a casual, normal play environment, that isn't going to be the case.

Assault is more technical to play in 8th than shooting, that is a definite fact. Shooting is an easier style to play - more stationary positioning decisions, less movement micromanagement. It's easy to screw up a charge-pile in-consolidate sequence to allow vs deny overwatch, allow vs deny fall back, and maximise the number of models available to attack. it's easy to make the wrong choice as to the first unit to attack with and leave yourself open to a counterattack interrupt. It is a lot easier to position your units to get cover, to allow for Heroic Interventions, and to protect characters if you're not planning on doing much movement with them in the game. But saying that because something is more difficult, or takes more thought, means that it is impossible is disingenuous.

So all I have to do for Conscripts to be perfectly balanced is to assume that they either A) don't get fielded at all, or B) are played wrong.

We can end the thread on the worst argument made right there.

No, all you have to do to stop believing that assault is 100% useless all the time is to stop assuming things like "every tank in every single list will have imperial guard conscripts standing in front of it" or "your opponent will never make any kind of micro mistake".

Conscripts are a tournament level unit with a solid place in the current meta. unless you live in the hyper-competitive and increasingly hyperbolic-sounding nightmare world of Martel, you do not have to believe the sky is falling and the game is ruined because they exist.

No matter how many times you keep trying to claim they're balanced because "maybe they won't be used" it keeps sounding just as ridiculous each time.

Bolded for the hard of reading. feel free to find the place where I said "Conscripts are balanced".

 Insectum7 wrote:

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Like, what is this point about devourer gaunts supposed to show? My claim was that "Conscripts shoot decently".

Fair enough. But running the numbers, GEQ appear to be the only targets in which the claim about efficiency is true. (I don't have my codex with me, but it's a fun challenge) Even then, they're relying on a 12" rapid fire range (Vostroyans excepted, if I read the rumors correctly). Using Devourer Gaunts was more a point about limiting the claim to the SM codex.

I would say their anti infantry is good, but beyond that their damage output is pretty terrible, and their effective range is quite limited.

I don't think this is right either. Conscripts also shoot decently at MEQs, right? No, they're not more efficient than everything in the Space Marine codex, but surely that doesn't mean that their output isn't "decent". They're still just as good at it as Sternguard. And almost all of the other stuff that's good at killing MEQs and especially GEQs is also relying on pretty close-range weaponry; Conscripts with doctrines strike me as having a big advantage here since they can get a 30" range with Vostroyans or an 18" rapid-fire range with Steel Legion.

But, yeah, Conscripts are relatively bad against tanks, if that's all you mean, although they still end up having a surprising amount of potential for a unit with an S3 AP0 gun given the buffs available to them. This doesn't seem like a big problem for me, though, right? I mean, a devastator squad with lascannons is bad against GEQs but that doesn't mean that they're not a strong shooting unit. We don't generally require that units be great at killing literally everything.

I'm still not really sure that we're talking about the same thing. I think my original post was pretty clear. One point I wanted to get across is that Conscripts actually shoot pretty well, in response to someone who said that "they're not efficiently taking anything out". I did some easy comparisons and pointed out a pretty striking fact about how they rate against the whole Space Marine codex. So I don't really understand why you're making "a point about limiting the claim to the SM codex". My claim doesn't really have to do with the SM codex specifically, it's just that comparisons with the SM codex were an easy way to produce some evidence for my claim. I think Conscripts are a decent offensive option compared to anti-infantry choices in every army.

Why is it hyperbolic to say that there are players who chase the meta and play with low frequency of mistakes? They are the most dedicated so they are the people I see the most.

I've watched as many games as I've played, and there were VERY few tables were I was confident that the marines had the upper hand. Forget the IG for sec. There's 100 firewarrior lists, Nidzilla, Mechdar, all kinds of solid stuff that easily counter lots of marine builds. Too easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"plus dice dont use the law of mathematics, they use the law of Mechanics "

While technically true, is only relevant in the case of mismolded or loaded dice. For practical purposes, they are random independent events.

No it isnt, you are wrong, there is no other way of putting it, please go and look up what the law of mechanics is, as I believe you are either mis-remembering what it is or simply do not know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion

You saying
" is only relevant in the case of mismolded or loaded dice"
is very disingenuous if you do know what I am referring to and doesnt help the discussion in any way.

Technically you are correct, I just don't know how much it matters in this case. If you are saying that a statistically significant amount of dice are significantly off from 16.66% for each side, then we can't talk about any probabilities ever in this game. Because that would become the big determining factor in a given game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
As a guard player who hasn't had many games with his guard this time around I am looking forward to trying this codex. I play a cadian army that is severely troop heavy. 6 guard squads, 2 command squads, 15 heavy weapon teams, and 1 squad of scions, + charecters. I only own 2 russes (exterminaror and executioner) and 1 chimera, plus 3 sentinals. This has been my guard army since 5th ed, but I'm reality it never has done that we'll.

These changes may make them incredibly effective, but I don't know if it's broke. I still could see a single genestealer killing off a squad in close combat. Trygons with termagaunts and devourers would also wreck face. And imperial players can always take a vindicare assassin and start sniping commissars. Watched a game the other day where 2 vindicares took out a changeling on the Imperial first turn and made all the difference taking out the tzeentch pink horrors with the rest of the armies bolters.

Point is nothing is a vacuum, and I still don't see conscripts as an issue. I run either 2 squads of 3 bikes, all with flamers (two flamers one combiflamer) or 3 land speeders with dual heavy flamers as my swarm counter when I don't know what I will go against and am playing marines. They never let me down. They do die. But they get the job done first.

Also I wonder what Havoc squads, 2 squads of them with heavy bolters, and some bikers would do to conscripts. I don't think infantry would last long against that either.

As for point effective looking at it from that pov your never going to get a good option, but there is more than that. Objectives, mission cards, there can be a large difference between just play to kill and play to win.

Your flamers can't do enough damage in the time frame you have to do it. That's what I would say about that. Conscripts are better at objective grabbing than any marine unit because of sheer body count. By turn 3, they have engulfed 4/6 objectives and you can't stop it.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Even when I played space marines, I always planned for horde armies. I love loading up on heavy bolters and assault cannons. Thin the heard while targeting their heavier stuff with your lascannons and missiles. Stop trying to table your opponent and out-think them instead.
Marines have the tools to play the current meta. Try using them and stop looking for silver bullets to win. Remember to engage vehicles so they can't shoot that turn. you don't have to destroy them to neutralize them.

Bubblewrap is made specifically to stop you from engaging vehicles. If you managed to get a charge on a vehicle and every Conscript in that sector isn't dead, then the enemy played their conscripts wildly wrong.

Yes, remember folks, every guard list includes at least 100 conscripts, and every player is an expert at using them. Your opponent will never make mistakes, and would never think about running anything but the most competitive choices. If you put terrain on the table, your opponent will have nothing but conscripts, manticores, and mortar teams across the table from you. This is the nightmare world in which you live - despair!

in a competitive tournament environment, you're going to see lists like that, yes. And people are usually going to string their conscripts correctly, and position them such that you can't encircle one in the front to prevent a fallback, and cover all their tanks such that fast assault units and deep strikers can never get to them, and always hide their characters perfectly out of LOS of all snipers...usually. in a casual, normal play environment, that isn't going to be the case.

Assault is more technical to play in 8th than shooting, that is a definite fact. Shooting is an easier style to play - more stationary positioning decisions, less movement micromanagement. It's easy to screw up a charge-pile in-consolidate sequence to allow vs deny overwatch, allow vs deny fall back, and maximise the number of models available to attack. it's easy to make the wrong choice as to the first unit to attack with and leave yourself open to a counterattack interrupt. It is a lot easier to position your units to get cover, to allow for Heroic Interventions, and to protect characters if you're not planning on doing much movement with them in the game. But saying that because something is more difficult, or takes more thought, means that it is impossible is disingenuous.

So all I have to do for Conscripts to be perfectly balanced is to assume that they either A) don't get fielded at all, or B) are played wrong.

We can end the thread on the worst argument made right there.

No, all you have to do to stop believing that assault is 100% useless all the time is to stop assuming things like "every tank in every single list will have imperial guard conscripts standing in front of it" or "your opponent will never make any kind of micro mistake".

Conscripts are a tournament level unit with a solid place in the current meta. unless you live in the hyper-competitive and increasingly hyperbolic-sounding nightmare world of Martel, you do not have to believe the sky is falling and the game is ruined because they exist.

No matter how many times you keep trying to claim they're balanced because "maybe they won't be used" it keeps sounding just as ridiculous each time.

Bolded for the hard of reading. feel free to find the place where I said "Conscripts are balanced".

I have no idea what "tournament level unit" even is. It's a ridiculous concept you've made up, as far as I can tell. A unit that is too powerful can't just be waved off as "oh, that's just for tournaments" every unit should be balanced for tournaments. If anything, conscripts are a unit that ruins the tournament scene where balance matters the most.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The orders thing hurt the conscripts. No one is denying that. They got army traits though which some are really good.

Lets also not forget the fact that the real reason conscripts are OP is that they cost less than other fodder infantry and they have a better weapon - better abiltiies - and in most cases better saves. They should cost 4 points period.

Better weapon?

Than a grot blasta? Flesh bore? or in many cases NO RANGED WEAPON - Yeah...Las gun is way better than those.

It's the Eldar mental gymnastics all over again. Scatbikes aren't THAT bad, you just have to do X, Y, Z, A, B, and C to have a 40% chance to win the game. And not play codex T, U, or V. Nothing to see here.

Or even better, the Riptide gymnastics. Needing 40 lascannon shots to die was PERFECTLY reasonable.

If there has ever been a point in 40k's history where 25% of units within any given codex were seen in the average tournament list for that faction, I'll eat my hat. The average tournament list generally hovers around 5 different units, counting units taken just as tax.

A tournament level unit is a unit that's good enough in its optimum configuration to be able to compete in tournaments. By nature, that puts them at the very least in the top ~25% of options available for the codex. Conscripts are really, really strong, due to both their individual stats and the general meta of what we've been seeing in tournaments, which now highly favors artillery and multi-faction soup.

I'm not "waving off" conscripts being far stronger than the average unit chosen at random from a codex. I'm disputing that the power differential between Index Conscripts and Codex Conscripts is so high that 40k is ruined until they get the cost bump they need. If you asked me whether I would rather run Index Conscripts or Codex Conscripts with all the stratagems, my choice of doctrine, etc, I'd run Index Conscripts.

the_scotsman wrote:
If there has ever been a point in 40k's history where 25% of units within any given codex were seen in the average tournament list for that faction, I'll eat my hat. The average tournament list generally hovers around 5 different units, counting units taken just as tax.

A tournament level unit is a unit that's good enough in its optimum configuration to be able to compete in tournaments. By nature, that puts them at the very least in the top ~25% of options available for the codex. Conscripts are really, really strong, due to both their individual stats and the general meta of what we've been seeing in tournaments, which now highly favors artillery and multi-faction soup.

I'm not "waving off" conscripts being far stronger than the average unit chosen at random from a codex. I'm disputing that the power differential between Index Conscripts and Codex Conscripts is so high that 40k is ruined until they get the cost bump they need. If you asked me whether I would rather run Index Conscripts or Codex Conscripts with all the stratagems, my choice of doctrine, etc, I'd run Index Conscripts.

I understand what you mean and I agree. GW needs to work harder to get of the 25%. They did better, but they've still got some really unfortunate hiccups.

Wait for at least a month and let the meta settle. I mean, the codex has barely been distributed.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Like, what is this point about devourer gaunts supposed to show? My claim was that "Conscripts shoot decently".

Fair enough. But running the numbers, GEQ appear to be the only targets in which the claim about efficiency is true. (I don't have my codex with me, but it's a fun challenge) Even then, they're relying on a 12" rapid fire range (Vostroyans excepted, if I read the rumors correctly). Using Devourer Gaunts was more a point about limiting the claim to the SM codex.

I would say their anti infantry is good, but beyond that their damage output is pretty terrible, and their effective range is quite limited.

I don't think this is right either. Conscripts also shoot decently at MEQs, right? No, they're not more efficient than everything in the Space Marine codex, but surely that doesn't mean that their output isn't "decent". They're still just as good at it as Sternguard. And almost all of the other stuff that's good at killing MEQs and especially GEQs is also relying on pretty close-range weaponry; Conscripts with doctrines strike me as having a big advantage here since they can get a 30" range with Vostroyans or an 18" rapid-fire range with Steel Legion.

But, yeah, Conscripts are relatively bad against tanks, if that's all you mean, although they still end up having a surprising amount of potential for a unit with an S3 AP0 gun given the buffs available to them. This doesn't seem like a big problem for me, though, right? I mean, a devastator squad with lascannons is bad against GEQs but that doesn't mean that they're not a strong shooting unit. We don't generally require that units be great at killing literally everything.

I'm still not really sure that we're talking about the same thing. I think my original post was pretty clear. One point I wanted to get across is that Conscripts actually shoot pretty well, in response to someone who said that "they're not efficiently taking anything out". I did some easy comparisons and pointed out a pretty striking fact about how they rate against the whole Space Marine codex. So I don't really understand why you're making "a point about limiting the claim to the SM codex". My claim doesn't really have to do with the SM codex specifically, it's just that comparisons with the SM codex were an easy way to produce some evidence for my claim. I think Conscripts are a decent offensive option compared to anti-infantry choices in every army.

Depend's on the definition of "decent" I suppose. My baseline for the Marine codex is 5 man, Grav-Cannon and Combi-plas, sooo:
(Conscripts get orders+Doctrines / Marines get Buffs+Traits - yadda yadda, leaving out for simplicity.)

Insectum's base Tac Squad vs. MEQ @ 24"
Grav Cannon (4x.666x.666x.83) = 1.47 unsaved wounds
Bolters (3x.666x.666x.666) = .333 unsaved wounds
C-Plasma (no overcharge 1x.666x.666x.83) = .36 unsaved wounds

Total = 2.1 @ 24" 2.85 @ 12"
------------------

108 points of Conscripts
Lasguns (36x.333x.333x.333) = 1.32 unsaved wounds

Total= 1.32 @ 24" 2.64 @ 12"
------------------

And this is where bias and opinion come in, obviously. But from my perspective I see the Tac Squad doing almost twice the damage at 24", and I think that's significant for two reasons (which you can disagree with, feel free). I like the 24" band because it means that squads are better able to support each other and decisively effect the right target at the right time. I also think it's difficult to get all those conscripts within 12". Incidentally, @ 24" The Gravcannon out shoots the Lascannon vs. vehicles too, which is why it's currently my preferred loadout.

That said, it depends a lot on what you're doing with the Conscripts. If you're spread out to guard against deep strikers, 12" is limiting, and you're only peppering units at 24". But if you're in a position where you can cram them up front and forward, using them offensively, 12" becomes more feasible and damage output jumps up.

All of this, and I'm a defender of Tac Squads being good. There are those that think their damage output is rubbish. If Tac Squads damage output is rubbish and Conscript damage output is worse. . . then Conscript damage output is terrible.

Like I said, heavily in the opinion zone.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The orders thing hurt the conscripts. No one is denying that. They got army traits though which some are really good.

Lets also not forget the fact that the real reason conscripts are OP is that they cost less than other fodder infantry and they have a better weapon - better abiltiies - and in most cases better saves. They should cost 4 points period.

Better weapon?

Than a grot blasta? Flesh bore? or in many cases NO RANGED WEAPON - Yeah...Las gun is way better than those.

Ok. But the Fleshborer is on a BS 4+ model, and Termagaunts can get better weapons and mix their units to optimize.

I've never once talked up conscript damage. It's all about their ability to dictate enemy movement and slow down enemy advance. They quite literally turn off every strategy the BA have against IG, except 48" heavy weapons, a category in which BA can never compete with IG.

Yes, if you spend those points on a tac squad, they do exactly as you claim. But now the average cost on those models is far higher than 13 pts/model and their durability/pt has gone down a LOT. Truly effective troops like conscripts and firewarriors don't need such upgrades tainting their durability/pt. The "versatility" of marines is actually one of their most severe drawbacks.

What the hell. Scotsman. you're seriously suggesting that internal balance should be screwed because only some models should be good enough for tournament play. In Malifaux there are incredibly few models I wouldn't consider for a tournament list. What you're describing isn't tournament units, it's audaciously tragic balance, and it should never be defended.

Martel732 wrote:
It's the Eldar mental gymnastics all over again. Scatbikes aren't THAT bad, you just have to do X, Y, Z, A, B, and C to have a 40% chance to win the game. And not play codex T, U, or V. Nothing to see here.

Or even better, the Riptide gymnastics. Needing 40 lascannon shots to die was PERFECTLY reasonable.

This is what bothers me the most. "Scatterlasers are sooooo much worse than Assault Cannons because AP4 and Rending!" Then you realize an Assault Cannon is 20 points compared to the Scatterlasers 10 and they didn't respond to that at all.

Some people will do anything to defend their army if it gets the special treatment. Hell, I even tried defending Decurion Necrons until later codices get even better treatment and then Necrons were considered still too "durable". Heh.

There ARE no counters right now. The issue with Guard Infantry was that they weren't close to durable outside of cover, I'm pretty sure Orders weren't automatic, and the gangly nature of combined squads. They basically removed all these issues at once. The once humble Flamer, considered to be a decent counter at one time, does jack diddly now.

Actually, I came to the conclusion that platform choice was a bigger curse than points for the assault cannon. LR/terminator/land speeder/predator hull were all gak choices. Only the SR was viable.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Like, what is this point about devourer gaunts supposed to show? My claim was that "Conscripts shoot decently".

Fair enough. But running the numbers, GEQ appear to be the only targets in which the claim about efficiency is true. (I don't have my codex with me, but it's a fun challenge) Even then, they're relying on a 12" rapid fire range (Vostroyans excepted, if I read the rumors correctly). Using Devourer Gaunts was more a point about limiting the claim to the SM codex.

I would say their anti infantry is good, but beyond that their damage output is pretty terrible, and their effective range is quite limited.

I don't think this is right either. Conscripts also shoot decently at MEQs, right? No, they're not more efficient than everything in the Space Marine codex, but surely that doesn't mean that their output isn't "decent". They're still just as good at it as Sternguard. And almost all of the other stuff that's good at killing MEQs and especially GEQs is also relying on pretty close-range weaponry; Conscripts with doctrines strike me as having a big advantage here since they can get a 30" range with Vostroyans or an 18" rapid-fire range with Steel Legion.

But, yeah, Conscripts are relatively bad against tanks, if that's all you mean, although they still end up having a surprising amount of potential for a unit with an S3 AP0 gun given the buffs available to them. This doesn't seem like a big problem for me, though, right? I mean, a devastator squad with lascannons is bad against GEQs but that doesn't mean that they're not a strong shooting unit. We don't generally require that units be great at killing literally everything.

I'm still not really sure that we're talking about the same thing. I think my original post was pretty clear. One point I wanted to get across is that Conscripts actually shoot pretty well, in response to someone who said that "they're not efficiently taking anything out". I did some easy comparisons and pointed out a pretty striking fact about how they rate against the whole Space Marine codex. So I don't really understand why you're making "a point about limiting the claim to the SM codex". My claim doesn't really have to do with the SM codex specifically, it's just that comparisons with the SM codex were an easy way to produce some evidence for my claim. I think Conscripts are a decent offensive option compared to anti-infantry choices in every army.

Depend's on the definition of "decent" I suppose. My baseline for the Marine codex is 5 man, Grav-Cannon and Combi-plas, sooo:
(Conscripts get orders+Doctrines / Marines get Buffs+Traits - yadda yadda, leaving out for simplicity.)

Insectum's base Tac Squad vs. MEQ @ 24"
Grav Cannon (4x.666x.666x.83) = 1.47 unsaved wounds
Bolters (3x.666x.666x.666) = .333 unsaved wounds
C-Plasma (no overcharge 1x.666x.666x.83) = .36 unsaved wounds

Total = 2.1 @ 24" 2.85 @ 12"
------------------

108 points of Conscripts
Lasguns (36x.333x.333x.333) = 1.32 unsaved wounds

Total= 1.32 @ 24" 2.64 @ 12"
------------------

And this is where bias and opinion come in, obviously. But from my perspective I see the Tac Squad doing almost twice the damage at 24", and I think that's significant for two reasons (which you can disagree with, feel free). I like the 24" band because it means that squads are better able to support each other and decisively effect the right target at the right time. I also think it's difficult to get all those conscripts within 12". Incidentally, @ 24" The Gravcannon out shoots the Lascannon vs. vehicles too, which is why it's currently my preferred loadout.

That said, it depends a lot on what you're doing with the Conscripts. If you're spread out to guard against deep strikers, 12" is limiting, and you're only peppering units at 24". But if you're in a position where you can cram them up front and forward, using them offensively, 12" becomes more feasible and damage output jumps up.

All of this, and I'm a defender of Tac Squads being good. There are those that think their damage output is rubbish. If Tac Squads damage output is rubbish and Conscript damage output is worse. . . then Conscript damage output is terrible.

Like I said, heavily in the opinion zone.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The orders thing hurt the conscripts. No one is denying that. They got army traits though which some are really good.

Lets also not forget the fact that the real reason conscripts are OP is that they cost less than other fodder infantry and they have a better weapon - better abiltiies - and in most cases better saves. They should cost 4 points period.

Better weapon?

Than a grot blasta? Flesh bore? or in many cases NO RANGED WEAPON - Yeah...Las gun is way better than those.

Ok. But the Fleshborer is on a BS 4+ model, and Termagaunts can get better weapons and mix their units to optimize.

So you provided the math on your Tactical Squad vs the Conscript squad. Now look at the points for the wounds. 6 points of Conscripts dead vs 19 points of Tactical Marines dead. It's like you just looked at how many models died and not the price of them.

I mentioned cost in my rely, but I didn't analyze that specific interaction. I'm finding that equipping marines is a good way to lose. Of course, not equipping them is also a good way to lose.

The conscript's super power is giving up basically no points when they die, or even 100 die. The effort to remove 100 T3 5+ models in 8th is so extreme that they're a bargain with no weapon at all.

Lemondish wrote:
Codex isn't even out yet and the sky is falling.

Even if there were such a thing as "the new GW", it's the same old hyperbolic community overreacting at everything.

The sky was already falling. The game is effectively balanced without Imperial Guard and Astra Militarum. Then they were made worse.

 Marmatag wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Codex isn't even out yet and the sky is falling.

Even if there were such a thing as "the new GW", it's the same old hyperbolic community overreacting at everything.

The sky was already falling. The game is effectively balanced without Imperial Guard and Astra Militarum. Then they were made worse.

I don't know. Too many lists abusing conscripts right now. Personally, I'm terrified of the Nid codex. They seem to be disproportionately awesome vs marines, though.