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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

So you provided the math on your Tactical Squad vs the Conscript squad. Now look at the points for the wounds. 6 points of Conscripts dead vs 19 points of Tactical Marines dead. It's like you just looked at how many models died and not the price of them.

If you would care to read back through the posts, you'll find that the conversation was specifically about damage output.

If you would care to read the actual post, you'll find the math is against MEQ's and not each other.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

So you provided the math on your Tactical Squad vs the Conscript squad. Now look at the points for the wounds. 6 points of Conscripts dead vs 19 points of Tactical Marines dead. It's like you just looked at how many models died and not the price of them.

If you would care to read back through the posts, you'll find that the conversation was specifically about damage output.

If you would care to read the actual post, you'll find the math is against MEQ's and not each other.

I agree with you that that is not the conversation to be having. Especially with the order nerf coming down the pike.

pismakron wrote:
Wait for at least a month and let the meta settle. I mean, the codex has barely been distributed.

You realize the index was already broken and dominating for months - and this codex is better right? The meta wont change - its just going to be the same. IG everywhere and dominating.

Clearly they don't realize.

It's 4 more points to upgrade to a devourer on a termagaunt. That's an 8 point t3 model with a 6+ save. It has 3 str 4 shots (which isn't actually terrible) but for 1 more point you get 3 consctripts at 3 points with almost twice the firepower and almsot 4 times the durability. I mean...this is absolutely laughable stuff. Like LAUGHABLE.

 Xenomancers wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Wait for at least a month and let the meta settle. I mean, the codex has barely been distributed.

You realize the index was already broken and dominating for months - and this codex is better right? The meta wont change - its just going to be the same. IG everywhere and dominating.

JUST LIKE THE GALAXY!!!

Yeah I have no idea what people expect to happen here meta wise.

Conscripts are still as tough, if not tougher, so every army is still going to struggle with them and IG tanks/artillery remain untouchable with melee anti tank.

IG tanks and artillery got buffed across the board. Even things like the manticore and basilisk that were generally considered alright. So guard has better long range shooting.

Unless you are arguing that the scion plasma nerf is the single change that manages to so cripple guard that every other single buff in the codex doesn't compensate for it, the meta isn't going to change for most of us. Still going to be the same guard as before, just better.

I see lists with plasma scions, so maybe they'll be replaced by tanks?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's 4 more points to upgrade to a devourer on a termagaunt. That's an 8 point t3 model with a 6+ save. It has 3 str 4 shots (which isn't actually terrible) but for 1 more point you get 3 consctripts at 3 points with almost twice the firepower and almsot 4 times the durability. I mean...this is absolutely laughable stuff. Like LAUGHABLE.

Mathhammer doesn't matter. Because in a real game, you are rolling the dice for real and anything can happen. So those termagants ARE better because I think I'm gonna roll better with them because they have bigger numbers the conscripts can't get. And because terrain. And my opponent is gonna be an idiot. So my units don't matter at all. Math means nothing. I'm gonna out-general them and show that anything works if you know what you are doing.

This is a message directed at AM players specifically who want to play tournaments. Having your codex this OP is not good for you...because all you are going to do is play against your own codex. Literally - nothing in this game stands a chance against AM at this point - except AM.. It was already there but it got even worse with new special orders and needlessly buffed stuff which was already better than anything other armies could do. The balance in this book is so bad - I foresee a lot of people just flat out quitting the game because people are sick of this. We were promised a balanced game. Somehow they managed to make the game even more unbalanced.

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Codex isn't even out yet and the sky is falling.

Even if there were such a thing as "the new GW", it's the same old hyperbolic community overreacting at everything.

The sky was already falling. The game is effectively balanced without Imperial Guard and Astra Militarum. Then they were made worse.

I don't know. Too many lists abusing conscripts right now. Personally, I'm terrified of the Nid codex. They seem to be disproportionately awesome vs marines, though.

It's okay for an army to be strong against another army, provided they have other weaknesses.

AM is an army without weaknesses. And conscripts in imperium soup, and all of that imperial guard brigade nonsense in other armies is ridiculous.

"I've got my required 1000 points of AM, ok great, now, which army do i want to play with my remaining 1000 points?" - Every single Imperium player right now.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Codex isn't even out yet and the sky is falling.

Even if there were such a thing as "the new GW", it's the same old hyperbolic community overreacting at everything.

The sky was already falling. The game is effectively balanced without Imperial Guard and Astra Militarum. Then they were made worse.

I don't know. Too many lists abusing conscripts right now. Personally, I'm terrified of the Nid codex. They seem to be disproportionately awesome vs marines, though.

It's okay for an army to be strong against another army, provided they have other weaknesses.

AM is an army without weaknesses. And conscripts in imperium soup, and all of that imperial guard brigade nonsense in other armies is ridiculous.

"I've got my required 1000 points of AM, ok great, now, which army do i want to play with my remaining 1000 points?" - Every single Imperium player right now.

Well - except us players that aren't going to buy into this trash. it's so wildly unbalanced anyone can see that it will ether be changed or everyone will stop playing the game/ switch to AM themselves or just play narrative or something.

Yeah, I'm not joining that bandwagon, so I am SUPER hosed. Again.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, I'm not joining that bandwagon, so I am SUPER hosed. Again.

I'm in the same boat.

I was about to drop cash on AM and i realized that i fundamentally do not want to play that army.

 Purifier wrote:
What the hell. Scotsman. you're seriously suggesting that internal balance should be screwed because only some models should be good enough for tournament play. In Malifaux there are incredibly few models I wouldn't consider for a tournament list. What you're describing isn't tournament units, it's audaciously tragic balance, and it should never be defended.

Should? No. Is, and has always been? Yes. If you want to claim something WAS fine and IS NOW ruined, you need to actually demonstrate that the status is getting worse, not staying the same.

In my eyes, any change that brings a unit that was previously bad and makes them average, is good. I don't care what faction they're from. I don't look at all the Guilliman-Conscript-Plasma Scion-Celestine lists and go "grrr, stupid imperial guard, I hate them so and they are ruining the game!" I think "Conscripts and plasma scions are really getting old." A Leman Russ tank buff is good because Leman Russes were bad before. Just like I wouldn't gripe about tactical squad buffs because Guilliman exists.

Will we likely see as many or more *imperial guard* armies in the tournament scene due to the imperial guard codex? Yes, I expect so.

Will we see as many or more *conscripts* in the tournament scene due to the imperial guard codex? I don't actually think we will, with the reliability of orders. Imperial soup lists already are not the top dog, I think people may start experimenting more with different unit configurations.

Even if everyone who currently plays conscript blobs switched over to conscript blobs with leman russes and basilisks and baneblades and hellhounds, I'd see that as a positive step, because that's more different units, being played in a somewhat more fluffy way (guard being supported by actual guard and not by the annoying and ubiquitous celestine and guilliman superfriends).

Take a read through the OP of this post and the arguments made by a lot of people here, yourself included. If it sounds like I'm arguing against hyperbole, count the number of times "The game is ruined" has been thrown around here. At worst, the meta has not significantly changed. At best, meta lists have become less skill reliant and more luck reliant, which means you're going to see fewer of them at the top tables where decision making matters the most.

I'm balking at 4 sniper boxes. Because I'm not sure if that will even help. But I'm told it will.

I can't believe there are people stating the SM codex is weaker than the IG codex. I mean, have you read the thing? Have you seen what the floating primaris tank can do? What relics are in that thing? The Gulliman's datasheet?

I know it's GW tradition to complain about whatever codex is coming out next as OP, but this is getting silly.

Looks like I need about 20 boxes of Cadians to bubblewrap my AdMech, so that's about 350 pounds and a few months of crying into my paints to thin them if I want to have any shot of a chance in any tournament.

Think I'll just stick to losing to AM players.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
I can't believe there are people stating the SM codex is weaker than the IG codex. I mean, have you read the thing? Have you seen what the floating primaris tank can do? What relics are in that thing? The Gulliman's datasheet?

I know it's GW tradition to complain about whatever codex is coming out next as OP, but this is getting silly.

LOL. The floating tank is garbage tier. Girlyman is a ray of light for ultras only. The rest of the chapters can get bent, I guess. And even then, Girlyman lists are boring as hell.

The space marine codex will end up as one of the worst codices, mark my words. It's 5th ed all over again, except I bet the snowflake marines get hosed too.

the_scotsman wrote:
Should? No. Is, and has always been? Yes. If you want to claim something WAS fine and IS NOW ruined, you need to actually demonstrate that the status is getting worse, not staying the same.

Don't need to demonstrate anything that I haven't said. The unit is broken and it needs fixing. GW acknowledged that and didn't even close to fix it. In the past GW has been proud of their rules being an unbalanced mess. They were not better. The base of 8th is far far better than anything that came before it. That doesn't mean that it's ok now - when they've said they're gonna do balance - to keep on with the dumb imbalance of the past. You're defending it just because it has always been that way? That's dumb. Stop doing that.

 Purifier wrote:
Looks like I need about 20 boxes of Cadians to bubblewrap my AdMech, so that's about 350 pounds and a few months of crying into my paints to thin them if I want to have any shot of a chance in any tournament.

Think I'll just stick to losing to AM players.

Does the salt from the tears ruin the paint though?

Asking for a friend, of course.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
I can't believe there are people stating the SM codex is weaker than the IG codex. I mean, have you read the thing? Have you seen what the floating primaris tank can do? What relics are in that thing? The Gulliman's datasheet?

I know it's GW tradition to complain about whatever codex is coming out next as OP, but this is getting silly.

The space marine codex is worse than many indexes. Guilliman is literally the only above average unit in the space marine arsenal (Azreal too). He makes a lot of below average units above average. Most the stuff in the AM book is flat out amazing on it's own. It's a pretty terrible codex.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
I can't believe there are people stating the SM codex is weaker than the IG codex. I mean, have you read the thing? Have you seen what the floating primaris tank can do? What relics are in that thing? The Gulliman's datasheet?

I know it's GW tradition to complain about whatever codex is coming out next as OP, but this is getting silly.

Primaris marines are what you take if your REAL army is winning to much. No one plays the repulsor(hint:because it's really bad) as for the rest of it, both guard and malefic lord chaos beat any pure space marine army.

ERJAK wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
I can't believe there are people stating the SM codex is weaker than the IG codex. I mean, have you read the thing? Have you seen what the floating primaris tank can do? What relics are in that thing? The Gulliman's datasheet?

I know it's GW tradition to complain about whatever codex is coming out next as OP, but this is getting silly.

Primaris marines are what you take if your REAL army is winning to much. No one plays the repulsor(hint:because it's really bad) as for the rest of it, both guard and malefic lord chaos beat any pure space marine army.

Repulsor didn't used to be real bad. It used to be a good dakka tank. Now a Lemon Russ with its heavy 40 str 5 main turret for under 200 points. Might as well just turn my repulsors into terrain.

It was real bad because T8 3+ is an ideal target for lascannons and it costs SO MUCH.

 Xenomancers wrote:

The space marine codex is worse than many indexes.

You are out of your brain.

How does another unit being buffed make the repulsor bad? If the repulsor was good, but another unit in a completely different army is buffed to its level, the repulsor is still good. It's just that there are two good tanks where there was one. Two models can be good at the same time you know.

Apparently though it's not enough that Space Marines succeed, everyone else must fail.

lol @ whomever first brought up the Repulsor as an example of how "good" the Marine 'dex is.

Xenomancers wrote:

The space marine codex is worse than many indexes.


You are out of your brain.

Yeah, the Marine book looks like it's going to be over-all weaker than the new Astra-Militarum book, but saying the Marine codex is weaker than the Indexes? I don't know ...

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The space marine codex is worse than many indexes.

You are out of your brain.

In a discussion about pure armies, space marines do come up fairly short. Without support the parking lot list they are so famed for tends to fall apart to any sort of decent assault army, harlequins in particular can literally walk all over them for example. Without a strong screening unit, which the army just doesn't have in house, at lot of their stronger tactics fall apart. They also lack much else to their arsenal beyond a solid shooting game. Their assault elements are generally unimpressive as is their deepstrike ability, particularly if you look at CSM for comparison. The best I've seen them do solo was tough infantry and dreadnoughts (IH or RG) to maintain board presence while stormravens focused on cutting the enemy down as much as possible. It was not all that impressive truth be told.

So yes, stronger indices like harlequins, particularly ynnari, and IG could absolutely take down codex SM. Admittedly scions really pulled their weight against SM in the indices so that match up might not swing that badly.

Something I just thought of, and has stuck with me as it is very much the way some people in business/marketing think...

Someone at GW just needs to think "oh dear, I thought we did a good job at making a fun and strong IG codex this time, but look at all the outrage and complaints we are getting because of how good it is. Oh well, it's too late to do anything about it now. Eldar and Tyranids are next, lets make *DOUBLE* sure that we don't make this mistake again. Drop a bunch of those special rules we planned for them. Oh and add 1 point to every model. We don't want any more bad publicity!"

I have a horrible feeling that this is far too likely.

You can always use the Marine Codex *and* the Imperial Guard codex. The Ultramarines can always use 120 Conscripts running around.