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the_scotsman wrote:
There's a lot of things wrong with a game state where GW considers it "fair" to require a tzeentch daemon player to have to pay full points for 20 blue horrors who only appear on the board when and where a unit of 10 pink horrors die, and who then have to immediately make a 10-casualty LD check on LD7. Heck, you even have to pay full 30 something points for a spawn if you want to use the extra effect of a weapon that might turn someone into one on a 6 while finishing them of...

Then they turn around and say that it's "fair" to have Guilliman and Celestine, 200+ point characters, resurrect for free just because. In matched play, if you want to use Celestine's resurrection ability, you should have to pay reinforcement points for a second Celestine.

Though it's a bit weird to call Celestine the IG avatar. Wouldn't that be Yarrick? LD boosting aura, offensive aura, big beatstick, actually in the same book? Wouldn't it be equally fair to say that a Farseer with Doom is a Dark Eldar psyker because they benefit from it?

I'm also curious about the real difference between the sizes of typical Brigades people get. Sure, IG can take super el-cheapo options in every slot to pump up command points, but that typically leads to units that are purely for tax purposes, and I much more frequently field stuff with a few upgrades, while with Eldar I will often run stock or close to stock squads. Looking at my two TAC lists with Brigades, my Eldar Brigade is only 250 points more than my Astra Militarum Brigade, and I bring the same number of command points total (Brigade+Spearhead for AM and Brigade+Allied Outrider detachment for Eldar).

The Eldar troop choices are usually about 1.5x as expensive as the AM ones, but the Eldar make up for it with good cheap HS options relative to the AM ones. My War Walkers and Vauls Wrath batteries are about 50-60 points cheaper than the manticores and leman russes I have in my AM brigade.

Do people actually run stuff like 6 naked infantry squads, 3 commissars, 3 mortar hwts, 3 scout sents with multilasers, 3 company commanders naked? How does that work? that seems super tax-y to me, and I feel like I wouldn't have anything decent to spend the CPs on.

AM have cheaper options than leman russes as gun platforms, and I don't know much about manticores but the Eldar gun batteries are hugely overpriced for what they are. War Walkers are ok though, but still more expensive (and more fragile) than equivalent IG gun platforms. I mean sure War Walkers are cheaper for their 2 guns, but they're only T6 and W6, so they're much more fragile than Lemans.

I dunno how you're getting decent efficiency out of the vauls wrath gun batteries vs IG options. A single Vauls Wrath with gun is about 100 points... For around 105 points you could get three Quad Heavy Bolter gun platforms, which would just be better in every possible way, except maybe against really high toughness targets. Even then, the triple-quad heavy bolters would probably outdamage anything Eldar can field for those points.

Eldar simply do not have any unit, which IG don't have a cheaper and more effective version of. That I have been able to find, anyway. Psykers, gunlines, tanks, transports, IG wins on every one. The only exception -might- be melee combat troops, but with Crusaders and Ogryn/Bullgryn in the mix I can't think of anything Eldar have that really competes. Banshees and Scorpions are pretty bad at the moment (pending updates).

Fluff wise, the Imperium is a huge force and many of its elements work together on a daily basis. Celestine would often appear to save some beleaguered IG forces, she is a saint after all.

I am getting so sick of fluff justifications for things that are imbalanced... You can justify Necrons and Space Marines allying together with GW's crappy fluff, for christ'ssake. Virtually anything can be fluffy, that should hardly be a concern when it comes to game balance.

 Trickstick wrote:
Fluff wise, the Imperium is a huge force and many of its elements work together on a daily basis. Celestine would often appear to save some beleaguered IG forces, she is a saint after all.

I have no problem with celestine turning up to help out a squad of random guardsmen. It's the same scenario as the Avatar of the God of War rocking up to beat up some random space marines.

Problem is when Saint Celestine is half the 'cost' of the God of War, but is better across the board (particularly for the points/efficiency of the unit), and has free access to a resurrection ability that the Eldar have to pay an excessive (and prohibitively expensive) 3 command points for.

Celestine should be at least 200 points base, 300+ with her bodyguard. And it should cost 3CP every time one of them resurrects.

Niiru wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lets take a moment and acknowledge that Celestine is not in fact an Imperial Guard unit, and makes no appearance in the IG codex, and generally cant be the target of IG Stratagems.

I would take this as a good counter-arguement, if Celestine didn't keep appearing in IG-dominant lists. As it is, she's as much an IG member as Assassins are at this point. And probably used even more frequently.

The issue then is mixnmatch army construction rules, Celestine will do what she does in any army. It's an issue with Celestine herself compounded by the fact that GW designs armies as self contained items but allows them to be utilized in a mixnmatch "take whatever you want" manner, but has nothing inherently to do with the Imperial Guard.

the_scotsman wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lets take a moment and acknowledge that Celestine is not in fact an Imperial Guard unit, and makes no appearance in the IG codex, and generally cant be the target of IG Stratagems.

I would take this as a good counter-arguement, if Celestine didn't keep appearing in IG-dominant lists. As it is, she's as much an IG member as Assassins are at this point. And probably used even more frequently.

So, just like Assassins, she isn't an IG member?

Doesn't have the keyword, can't use the stratagems, turns off doctrines if they share a detachment, can't benefit from their psychic powers, can't board their transports?

Genestealer Cultists are closer to being members of the imperial guard than either assassins or celestine.

If you open up the rulebook, you'll see there's rules for "faction keywords" and how they work.

Good thing you can take an ultra cheap detachment to keep Celestine in so she doesnt turn off doctrines...

Niiru wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
There's a lot of things wrong with a game state where GW considers it "fair" to require a tzeentch daemon player to have to pay full points for 20 blue horrors who only appear on the board when and where a unit of 10 pink horrors die, and who then have to immediately make a 10-casualty LD check on LD7. Heck, you even have to pay full 30 something points for a spawn if you want to use the extra effect of a weapon that might turn someone into one on a 6 while finishing them of...

Then they turn around and say that it's "fair" to have Guilliman and Celestine, 200+ point characters, resurrect for free just because. In matched play, if you want to use Celestine's resurrection ability, you should have to pay reinforcement points for a second Celestine.

Though it's a bit weird to call Celestine the IG avatar. Wouldn't that be Yarrick? LD boosting aura, offensive aura, big beatstick, actually in the same book? Wouldn't it be equally fair to say that a Farseer with Doom is a Dark Eldar psyker because they benefit from it?

I'm also curious about the real difference between the sizes of typical Brigades people get. Sure, IG can take super el-cheapo options in every slot to pump up command points, but that typically leads to units that are purely for tax purposes, and I much more frequently field stuff with a few upgrades, while with Eldar I will often run stock or close to stock squads. Looking at my two TAC lists with Brigades, my Eldar Brigade is only 250 points more than my Astra Militarum Brigade, and I bring the same number of command points total (Brigade+Spearhead for AM and Brigade+Allied Outrider detachment for Eldar).

The Eldar troop choices are usually about 1.5x as expensive as the AM ones, but the Eldar make up for it with good cheap HS options relative to the AM ones. My War Walkers and Vauls Wrath batteries are about 50-60 points cheaper than the manticores and leman russes I have in my AM brigade.

Do people actually run stuff like 6 naked infantry squads, 3 commissars, 3 mortar hwts, 3 scout sents with multilasers, 3 company commanders naked? How does that work? that seems super tax-y to me, and I feel like I wouldn't have anything decent to spend the CPs on.

AM have cheaper options than leman russes as gun platforms, and I don't know much about manticores but the Eldar gun batteries are hugely overpriced for what they are. War Walkers are ok though, but still more expensive (and more fragile) than equivalent IG gun platforms. I mean sure War Walkers are cheaper for their 2 guns, but they're only T6 and W6, so they're much more fragile than Lemans.

I dunno how you're getting decent efficiency out of the vauls wrath gun batteries vs IG options. A single Vauls Wrath with gun is about 100 points... For around 105 points you could get three Quad Heavy Bolter gun platforms, which would just be better in every possible way, except maybe against really high toughness targets. Even then, the triple-quad heavy bolters would probably outdamage anything Eldar can field for those points.

Eldar simply do not have any unit, which IG don't have a cheaper and more effective version of. That I have been able to find, anyway. Psykers, gunlines, tanks, transports, IG wins on every one. The only exception -might- be melee combat troops, but with Crusaders and Ogryn/Bullgryn in the mix I can't think of anything Eldar have that really competes. Banshees and Scorpions are pretty bad at the moment (pending updates).

I'm not really talking about comparable quality. Nobody's arguing the cwe codex is particularly great. Mostly I was asking if it was really that common of a thing to see IG armies with tons more CPs than CWE armies, because I typically run both at 13 CPs and I've never seen an IG army with more than 14.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ordana wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lets take a moment and acknowledge that Celestine is not in fact an Imperial Guard unit, and makes no appearance in the IG codex, and generally cant be the target of IG Stratagems.

I would take this as a good counter-arguement, if Celestine didn't keep appearing in IG-dominant lists. As it is, she's as much an IG member as Assassins are at this point. And probably used even more frequently.

So, just like Assassins, she isn't an IG member?

Doesn't have the keyword, can't use the stratagems, turns off doctrines if they share a detachment, can't benefit from their psychic powers, can't board their transports?

Genestealer Cultists are closer to being members of the imperial guard than either assassins or celestine.

If you open up the rulebook, you'll see there's rules for "faction keywords" and how they work.

Good thing you can take an ultra cheap detachment to keep Celestine in so she doesnt turn off doctrines...

This discussion has taken some truly bizarre turns. I'm honestly only continuing it because it's just fascinating to watch.

We here have a turn in the discussion where Space Marines, the army that's generally been tied with guard as top imperial faction, are just fine because only Guilliman is broken.

Then, on a separate tangent, Saint Celestine is now an imperial guard unit because she's taken with other unbalanced IG units, and people want the whole IG codex nerfed because it's all OP, including all the things that aren't in the same book and aren't the same faction.

And AT THE SAME TIME, we have people complaining that everything the IG has is better than everything the Eldar has now, the faction that in 7th was super unbalanced and every unit needed nerfs because it was all OP. Now that whole book is lackluster and it's unfair.

So the solution is to nerf everything IG, because it's all OP.

They really are flailing about desperately trying to find something, anything , to complain about. They just throw about terms like "Balance" "OP" "Garbage" etc without any real understanding of what they mean. kinda sad actually.

the_scotsman wrote:

Spoiler:

Niiru wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
There's a lot of things wrong with a game state where GW considers it "fair" to require a tzeentch daemon player to have to pay full points for 20 blue horrors who only appear on the board when and where a unit of 10 pink horrors die, and who then have to immediately make a 10-casualty LD check on LD7. Heck, you even have to pay full 30 something points for a spawn if you want to use the extra effect of a weapon that might turn someone into one on a 6 while finishing them of...

Then they turn around and say that it's "fair" to have Guilliman and Celestine, 200+ point characters, resurrect for free just because. In matched play, if you want to use Celestine's resurrection ability, you should have to pay reinforcement points for a second Celestine.

Though it's a bit weird to call Celestine the IG avatar. Wouldn't that be Yarrick? LD boosting aura, offensive aura, big beatstick, actually in the same book? Wouldn't it be equally fair to say that a Farseer with Doom is a Dark Eldar psyker because they benefit from it?

I'm also curious about the real difference between the sizes of typical Brigades people get. Sure, IG can take super el-cheapo options in every slot to pump up command points, but that typically leads to units that are purely for tax purposes, and I much more frequently field stuff with a few upgrades, while with Eldar I will often run stock or close to stock squads. Looking at my two TAC lists with Brigades, my Eldar Brigade is only 250 points more than my Astra Militarum Brigade, and I bring the same number of command points total (Brigade+Spearhead for AM and Brigade+Allied Outrider detachment for Eldar).

The Eldar troop choices are usually about 1.5x as expensive as the AM ones, but the Eldar make up for it with good cheap HS options relative to the AM ones. My War Walkers and Vauls Wrath batteries are about 50-60 points cheaper than the manticores and leman russes I have in my AM brigade.

Do people actually run stuff like 6 naked infantry squads, 3 commissars, 3 mortar hwts, 3 scout sents with multilasers, 3 company commanders naked? How does that work? that seems super tax-y to me, and I feel like I wouldn't have anything decent to spend the CPs on.

AM have cheaper options than leman russes as gun platforms, and I don't know much about manticores but the Eldar gun batteries are hugely overpriced for what they are. War Walkers are ok though, but still more expensive (and more fragile) than equivalent IG gun platforms. I mean sure War Walkers are cheaper for their 2 guns, but they're only T6 and W6, so they're much more fragile than Lemans.

I dunno how you're getting decent efficiency out of the vauls wrath gun batteries vs IG options. A single Vauls Wrath with gun is about 100 points... For around 105 points you could get three Quad Heavy Bolter gun platforms, which would just be better in every possible way, except maybe against really high toughness targets. Even then, the triple-quad heavy bolters would probably outdamage anything Eldar can field for those points.

Eldar simply do not have any unit, which IG don't have a cheaper and more effective version of. That I have been able to find, anyway. Psykers, gunlines, tanks, transports, IG wins on every one. The only exception -might- be melee combat troops, but with Crusaders and Ogryn/Bullgryn in the mix I can't think of anything Eldar have that really competes. Banshees and Scorpions are pretty bad at the moment (pending updates).

I'm not really talking about comparable quality. Nobody's arguing the cwe codex is particularly great. Mostly I was asking if it was really that common of a thing to see IG armies with tons more CPs than CWE armies, because I typically run both at 13 CPs and I've never seen an IG army with more than 14.

IG can easily take 20+ CP's, but it doesnt mean everyone does. The average is probably more 13-16. Eldar is capable of fielding an army with maybe 12CP's at most (would be really awful), but the average is more like 6-7. So it's still less than half as much. I was comparing the most that people usually take, but even if you use the "normal" numbers its still a huge variation.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ordana wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lets take a moment and acknowledge that Celestine is not in fact an Imperial Guard unit, and makes no appearance in the IG codex, and generally cant be the target of IG Stratagems.

I would take this as a good counter-arguement, if Celestine didn't keep appearing in IG-dominant lists. As it is, she's as much an IG member as Assassins are at this point. And probably used even more frequently.

So, just like Assassins, she isn't an IG member?

Doesn't have the keyword, can't use the stratagems, turns off doctrines if they share a detachment, can't benefit from their psychic powers, can't board their transports?

Genestealer Cultists are closer to being members of the imperial guard than either assassins or celestine.

If you open up the rulebook, you'll see there's rules for "faction keywords" and how they work.

Good thing you can take an ultra cheap detachment to keep Celestine in so she doesnt turn off doctrines...

This discussion has taken some truly bizarre turns. I'm honestly only continuing it because it's just fascinating to watch.

We here have a turn in the discussion where Space Marines, the army that's generally been tied with guard as top imperial faction, are just fine because only Guilliman is broken.

Then, on a separate tangent, Saint Celestine is now an imperial guard unit because she's taken with other unbalanced IG units, and people want the whole IG codex nerfed because it's all OP, including all the things that aren't in the same book and aren't the same faction.

And AT THE SAME TIME, we have people complaining that everything the IG has is better than everything the Eldar has now, the faction that in 7th was super unbalanced and every unit needed nerfs because it was all OP. Now that whole book is lackluster and it's unfair.

So the solution is to nerf everything IG, because it's all OP.

Well, Eldar only had 2 or 3 "overpowered" units in 6th and 7th. Yes, they were stupidly good, but that's hardly the fault of Eldar players. I've never played a scatbike or a wraithknight in my life.

Celestine isn't an IG unit, but she is an Imperial unit that is easily fieldable by IG players (and often is) without breaking any of their doctrines or buffs. So of course she is included in the balance of the army. If Dark Eldar had any overpowered units that Eldar players commonly used (they dont, btw) then that would be included in Eldars army balance. That's kind of the whole point.

I also didn't say that IG needed to be nerfed, all I said is that all of their units are better than the equivalents that Eldar (or any other race, I am just using Eldar as the most recent example as they are now actually getting a codex) can field. Buffing Eldar units would be just as good as nerfing IG units.

GW must have listened to your solution to this problem, because after 7th they nerfed every single Eldar unit into the ground so hard it woke up the God of Death himself. They even nerfed Guardians and Dire Avengers, who were never good. They nerfed units that noone had even played on the table in -years-.

So now that IG are in a much better position than Eldar ever were, suddenly IG players are saying "What? No no, don't nerf armies, thats not how we do things... lets just let thing play out for a few years before we do anything hasty....".

It's not even the strength of all the Imperium units (Gulliman and Celestine included) that annoys me. It's that GW clearly put SO MUCH effort into the IG codex. Each doctrine is varied, well thought out, and adds a lot of power and variety and distinction to whichever legion you choose. The codex, as a whole, is REALLY GOOD and well thought out.

Eldar codex so far? Copied and pasted from Admech/Space Marines. Probably knocked it out in a long weekend. Now I know why Admech players were so annoyed.

My 7th ed CWE army was (is, though I've only played it twice in 8th):

-Guardian Stormhost
-Avatar of Khaine
-Aspect Host with 2x Howling Banshees/Striking Scorpions
-Aspect host with Dire Avengers/Swooping Hawks/Dark Reapers
-Wraithlord
-Wraithblades
-Spiritseer

That got eyerolls, complaints, and refusals to play games in 7th ed. I know, from long term experience, how annoying the "Everything is OP, the whole army is broken, everything they have is so much stronger than everything everyone else has" stance is.

Because I get that the actual competitive core of an "op army" typically only comprises 3-4 units, often in a very specific combo that's commonly used, and with a specific set of options. So I'd 100% rather see a Guard codex over an Admech Codex or a Grey Knight codex where nothing changes and little effort is put in. Other than minor annoyance that there are only 5 craftworlds, and the traits are mostly copy/paste, I don't think we can actually say at this point if the book is lazy or not. The real beauty of the guard codex is the little changes to a lot of stuff that weren't hyped that much pre-release. They've got 2-3 really excellent stratagems, like the Cadia one or Take Cover, but a lot of them are largely wastes of points like "make your tank give LD9 like a 25pt commissar for 2CP" or "make pew pew noises and roll a die for each enemy unit, on a six deal 1 wound to them for 2CP".

Most of what's great is they actually gave a gak to design interesting faction traits, stratagems, (a couple) good relics, and went in and tweaked units that needed it. There are a few glimpses of fun stuff that make me hopeful for Codex: Eldar. Not the traits necessarily, they're definitely lackluster, but a couple seem relatively powerful. Commissar on everybody plus Valhallan Vehicle rule seems like a flatly better Valhallan trait, which everyone seems to like from the IG dex. Alaitoc is boring, but it'll make Rangers -2 to hit, +2 to armor in cover, put an offense boost on there and I'm really pleased with them.

My overall points is: you seem to understand why we're in the gakky situation we are now with tau and eldar. But you still want to have the same situation with Guard. Do you not get that this is largely how we get where we are?

Niiru wrote:


IG can easily take 20+ CP's, but it doesnt mean everyone does. The average is probably more 13-16. Eldar is capable of fielding an army with maybe 12CP's at most (would be really awful), but the average is more like 6-7. So it's still less than half as much. I was comparing the most that people usually take, but even if you use the "normal" numbers its still a huge variation.

Hrm, methinks we're being a bit hyperbolic here.

"easily" taking 20+ CP's, and having an army that can bring enough weapons that can meaningfully hurt something more than basic infantry, is not so easy. To get 20+ CP's in something like a 2K game, you really need to build an army list tailored to that, and then you're relying on 5+ rolls to generate more through a specific warlord trait/relic, and that's a very specific army build that's almost certainly not going to be including gobs of the other cool IG gubbins and primarily being reliant on squishy infantry.

Looking at IG lists in the Army List subforum, CP's generally seem to cap out at about 15-16, with many being relatively low, 4-6, for people wanting to do things like play tank armies or Stormtrooper companies and the like, and most being 6-12. Yeah, most IG armies will probably have more CP's than most Eldar armies, but probably more 9-12 to 6/7 than 16 to 6/7 or 20+ to 6/7. Lets see what the new Eldar codex ends up looking like on that front.

Well, Eldar only had 2 or 3 "overpowered" units in 6th and 7th. Yes, they were stupidly good, but that's hardly the fault of Eldar players. I've never played a scatbike or a wraithknight in my life.

They had lots of units that were more powerful than they should have been, not just the Scatterbikes and Wraithknights. The unnecessary D hamfisting onto Wraith units (especially in flamer form...), Fire Dragons getting an additional "AP0" +1 on damage chart rolls on top of the AP1 bonus for...no reason, BS5 made widely available to Apects for absolutely zero cost through Formations, Warp Spider sillyness, Invisibility and rerollable 2++ Seerstar shennanigans, etc...

Celestine isn't an IG unit, but she is an Imperial unit that is easily fieldable by IG players (and often is) without breaking any of their doctrines or buffs. So of course she is included in the balance of the army.

It's not part of the balance of the army, Celestine's ability is just as much of an issue in an AdMech or Sororitas or Space Marine army. By this rationale, literally every Imperial unit can be included in the balance of literally every Imperial army. The issue is with Celestine and the ability to mix and match everything, it's not an Imperial Guard-specific issue.

GW must have listened to your solution to this problem, because after 7th they nerfed every single Eldar unit into the ground so hard it woke up the God of Death himself. They even nerfed Guardians and Dire Avengers, who were never good. They nerfed units that noone had even played on the table in -years-.

They did the same with several IG units and kept many others just as garbage as they've always been. Half the Russ variants are never going to see a table. Hell, over the last two IG codex releases, IG have multiple units and characters either removed from the codex and relegated to FW or literally just flat out deleted (Al'Rahem, Vendetta, Medusa, Griffon, Marbo, etc). I can't recall Eldar ever having a unit treated so

So now that IG are in a much better position than Eldar ever were

Hrm, lets wait a bit on that here. Eldar historically have always been at the very top of the power pile except for 5E (where they never got a codex update) and in 7E were as powerful as I've ever seen an army, even without the two "star" units. There may be issues with IG, but lets wait a bit before jumping to grand pronouncements like that.

It's not even the strength of all the Imperium units (Gulliman and Celestine included) that annoys me. It's that GW clearly put SO MUCH effort into the IG codex. Each doctrine is varied, well thought out, and adds a lot of power and variety and distinction to whichever legion you choose. The codex, as a whole, is REALLY GOOD and well thought out.

Hrm, there's some very typical GW wonkiness in there, it's not all so well thought out. For example, Armageddon Steel Legion can spend 1CP to reroll to-hit rolls of 1...but only if the unit disembarked from a transport vehicle. Vostroyans can do the exact same thing...anywhere any time. Mordian Parade Drill doesn't hold a candle to most of the other Doctrines, the Cadian Warlord Trait to allow additional orders to be issued on a 4+ is stellar while Vostroyan and Armageddon Warlord Traits are...personal melee bonuses...in an IG army.

Well to be fair Celestine's is far better for an astra militarum or ministorum army since her ability only effects those units. Shes a bit more then the normal imperial soup. She gives all astra militarum units shield of faith.

Which is also part of the abusive bullgryn tactic of having 2++ bullgryns.

There are very few imperial soup units that cross buff armies like this.
But overall the problem with Celestine is she is undercosted not really because she is an extreme army buffer like Guilliman who isn't really as amazing now that there are several ways to reroll to hits of 1 in our codex.

How do you get bullgyn to 2++? 6++ goes to 4++, 3++ with the psychic power.

I thought the only 2++ was the bodyguard who you can give the relic?

the_scotsman wrote:
How do you get bullgyn to 2++? 6++ goes to 4++, 3++ with the psychic power.

I thought the only 2++ was the bodyguard who you can give the relic?

Don't you take the brute shield to start at 4++?

You can't take a slabshield and a brute shield. You get 2+ armor with slab+bullgyn plate but I thought Celestine granted a 6++.

That would go to 4++.

Celestine gives all astra militarum units 6++
Shield makes it 4++ and gives them 2+
Psycher makes it 3++ and 1+
And take cover strategem makes them 2++ vs shooting.

Above poster is right bodyguard w mask and shield is 2++.

gungo wrote:
Celestine gives all astra militarum units 6++
Shield makes it 4++ and gives them 2+
Psycher makes it 3++ and 1+
And take cover strategem makes them 2++ vs shooting.

Above poster is right bodyguard w mask and shield is 2++.

This is right I just don't know how abusive a 2++ is when it requires 2 other units and cp every turn to get it. That said I'm not positive the slabshield won't be FAQed.

Darkagl1 wrote:

gungo wrote:
Celestine gives all astra militarum units 6++
Shield makes it 4++ and gives them 2+
Psycher makes it 3++ and 1+
And take cover strategem makes them 2++ vs shooting.

Above poster is right bodyguard w mask and shield is 2++.

This is right I just don't know how abusive a 2++ is when it requires 2 other units and cp every turn to get it. That said I'm not positive the slabshield won't be FAQed.

Bullgryn were already good by themselves for their points.
Celestine is cheap for what she is. She is worth her points all on her own, even without buffing the Bullgryn.
The Psyker is dirt cheap by any standard.
I think that stratagem is only 1CP, which is not only cheap but it's only 5 CP per game (and you won't need to use it on every turn, so more like 3CP), so not even a third of your likely starting CP's.

All in all you could increase Celestines points by 50, and double the Psykers points cost, and it would still be a nasty combination. Right now, it's abusive as hell... It would require mass mortal wounds to kill, which pretty much means ... Malefic Lord spam? Or an Ork player with a lot of Weirdboyz.

Darkagl1 wrote:

gungo wrote:
Celestine gives all astra militarum units 6++
Shield makes it 4++ and gives them 2+
Psycher makes it 3++ and 1+
And take cover strategem makes them 2++ vs shooting.

Above poster is right bodyguard w mask and shield is 2++.

This is right I just don't know how abusive a 2++ is when it requires 2 other units and cp every turn to get it. That said I'm not positive the slabshield won't be FAQed.

Not really my point. I don't think bullgryns are broken (bodyguards are)
My point was Celestine ability effects all units and gives broken combos.
She's (and guilliman to a lesser degree) is a bit more powerful then the standard imperial soup becuase they buff astra militarum units.
Ffs you can give a conscript squads 4++ with Celestine, a psyker, and take cover. Does that make them a lot more durable heck ya.
Celestine is also undercosted.
Overall though I don't think this is going to rock tournaments.
bodyguards though need to be restricted to infantry characters only they are broken...

So, I recently had a game against an IG-playing buddy. He's been dominating our local group since 8th dropped, and I tried to put together a list specifically tailored to take on the type of list he likes to play.

2000pt game. I fielded a battalion. He fielded a brigade and a battalion.

The lists


What it boils down to is that an IG player can make a brigade at 2000pts without having to make any difficult choices. They can have their horde of infantry, their artillery, their rock-hard tanks, and their buffing characters all in one list. Heck, IG can probably make a brigade at 1500 without having to suffer too much pain in the process. A SM player of any stripe can make a brigade, but he has to choose the cheapest things possible across the board. There's a significant balance problem there.

I think the breakup of the platoon structure and command squad is the big issue here.

In previous editions, officers were part of squads, they got ablative wounds and extra special weapons but you couldn't just buy the officer cheap as chips by themselves, they were usually 2-4x what the characters themselves are now after kit, sometimes more. So basically, you can buy the officers and their buff abilities for basically just the cost of the buff itself without having the additional "tax" of multiple special weapons that, while adding value, also took up list space in a different way.

The Platoon structure also contained IG lists somewhat. In previous editions, this was to ensure IG had enough slots available to actually bring everything they could afford since most units were so cheap. GW decided to break that up, but without really thinking about their new Force Org structure either, thus allowing the previously limited Platoon units to be taken in ways that directly complemented filling out Detachments quite nicely.

If commanders were still bought as squads (requiring greater investment) and a Platoon structure were still in place (constraining the number of slots all those cheap units filled up), the CP issue would disappear.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
His list (I'm probably forgetting a thing or two, but he definitely had at least these)
Pask
Commissar
3x Primaris Psykers
Company Commander
Engineseer
3x Stormtrooper Squads
6x Infantry Squads with lascannons, plasma guns
2x 20-man Conscripts squads
5x Rough Riders
2x Sentinels wt lascannons
Leman Russ wt Punisher cannon, 3xHF
Leman Russ Executioner wt PC sponsons, hull HB
2x Wyvern
Manticore

What it boils down to is that an IG player can make a brigade at 2000pts without having to make any difficult choices. They can have their horde of infantry, their artillery, their rock-hard tanks, and their buffing characters all in one list. Heck, IG can probably make a brigade at 1500 without having to suffer too much pain in the process. A SM player of any stripe can make a brigade, but he has to choose the cheapest things possible across the board. There's a significant balance problem there.

Cheapest loadouts:

Pask 205 (HQ)
Commissar 30 (Elite)
3x Primaris Psykers 120 (3 HQ)
Company Commander 30 (HQ)
Engineseer 42 (Elite)
3x Stormtrooper Squads 150 (3 Troops)
6x Infantry Squads with lascannons, plasma guns 402 (6 troops)
2x 20-man Conscripts squads 120 (2 troops)
5x Rough Riders 50 (FA)
2x Sentinels wt lascannons 110 (2 FA)
Leman Russ wt Punisher cannon, 3xHF 193 (HS)
Leman Russ Executioner wt PC sponsons, hull HB 172 (HS)
2x Wyvern 186 (2 HS)
Manticore 133 (HS)

That's a 1913 point list, with 0 upgrades (except the one you listed) and doesn't have enough elites choices to form a whole Brigade, so it cannot include a Brigade as well as a battalion.

Niiru wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

gungo wrote:
Celestine gives all astra militarum units 6++
Shield makes it 4++ and gives them 2+
Psycher makes it 3++ and 1+
And take cover strategem makes them 2++ vs shooting.

Above poster is right bodyguard w mask and shield is 2++.

This is right I just don't know how abusive a 2++ is when it requires 2 other units and cp every turn to get it. That said I'm not positive the slabshield won't be FAQed.

Bullgryn were already good by themselves for their points.
Celestine is cheap for what she is. She is worth her points all on her own, even without buffing the Bullgryn.
The Psyker is dirt cheap by any standard.
I think that stratagem is only 1CP, which is not only cheap but it's only 5 CP per game (and you won't need to use it on every turn, so more like 3CP), so not even a third of your likely starting CP's.

All in all you could increase Celestines points by 50, and double the Psykers points cost, and it would still be a nasty combination. Right now, it's abusive as hell... It would require mass mortal wounds to kill, which pretty much means ... Malefic Lord spam? Or an Ork player with a lot of Weirdboyz.

Or just...ignore them? Bullgryn are 47ppm, and they're a pair of autocannons on the charge. A full unit of five does a whopping 6 wounds to a standard T7 3+ vehicle on the charge, or a terrifying 4 MEQ/7GEQ. For a 225 point unit that you've devoted an extra 40pt psyker and a cp to making unkillable.

If you want to spend 265 points on a unit that moves 6" and takes two turns to kill a basic transport, you be my guest. This is like when people lose their gak about the whole "if you take one bullgryn bodyguard and devote the relic to him then take two more then it takes a million bazillion bolter shots to finally kill them!" Sure, yep. And if you want to devote your relic and 200+ points to that, go for it. In a game where mortal wounds exist, and the best you can do is a 2+ save with no reroll, on a unit you can't make mobile and whose nastiest weapon is an autocannon equivalent...you haven't found the new screamer star, buddy. I'm sorry, you just haven't.

Take Cover is incredibly powerful for one reason: It can go on a Baneblade. THAT'S dumb, and the stratagem should 100% be FAQed to just an Infantry unit. But bullgryns are never going to be OP, not with the amount of damage they do for their points.

 Trickstick wrote:
Fluff wise, the Imperium is a huge force and many of its elements work together on a daily basis. Celestine would often appear to save some beleaguered IG forces, she is a saint after all.

This is true.

Do note that I'm not talking about Guilliman or Celestine when I say this. Some of us play the Imperium-range across the board without even touching the Triumvirate-boxes on the shelves of the game stores.

I mean, why shouldn't Guardsmen and Marines be battle brothers in one and the same list? It happens all the time. And Assassins work in the shadows always.

Heck, even IG-codex is made of <Regiments>, Officio Prefectus, Militarum Tempestus, Adeptus Mechanicus, Astra Telepathicus and members of Ecclesiarchy. Even there, the mixing and matching of different Imperial factions is common. Being able to add other factions is just fluffy.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I think the breakup of the platoon structure and command squad is the big issue here.

In previous editions, officers were part of squads, they got ablative wounds and extra special weapons but you couldn't just buy the officer cheap as chips by themselves, they were usually 2-4x what the characters themselves are now after kit, sometimes more. So basically, you can buy the officers and their buff abilities for basically just the cost of the buff itself without having the additional "tax" of multiple special weapons that, while adding value, also took up list space in a different way.

The Platoon structure also contained IG lists somewhat. In previous editions, this was to ensure IG had enough slots available to actually bring everything they could afford since most units were so cheap. GW decided to break that up, but without really thinking about their new Force Org structure either, thus allowing the previously limited Platoon units to be taken in ways that directly complemented filling out Detachments quite nicely.

If commanders were still bought as squads (requiring greater investment) and a Platoon structure were still in place (constraining the number of slots all those cheap units filled up), the CP issue would disappear.

Yeah, I think this is a significant part of the issue. The platoon structure has always been both a boon, and a big restriction on the way IG armies have been constructed. Well, the current system still has the boons, but little of the restrictions. Limit IG CPs somewhat to typical levels somehow, and then only a handful of units are too powerful. The overall codex is toned down sufficiently, and the individual units can be tweaked as necessary from that point.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
His list (I'm probably forgetting a thing or two, but he definitely had at least these)
Pask
Commissar
3x Primaris Psykers
Company Commander
Engineseer
3x Stormtrooper Squads
6x Infantry Squads with lascannons, plasma guns
2x 20-man Conscripts squads
5x Rough Riders
2x Sentinels wt lascannons
Leman Russ wt Punisher cannon, 3xHF
Leman Russ Executioner wt PC sponsons, hull HB
2x Wyvern
Manticore

What it boils down to is that an IG player can make a brigade at 2000pts without having to make any difficult choices. They can have their horde of infantry, their artillery, their rock-hard tanks, and their buffing characters all in one list. Heck, IG can probably make a brigade at 1500 without having to suffer too much pain in the process. A SM player of any stripe can make a brigade, but he has to choose the cheapest things possible across the board. There's a significant balance problem there.

Cheapest loadouts:

Pask 205 (HQ)
Commissar 30 (Elite)
3x Primaris Psykers 120 (3 HQ)
Company Commander 30 (HQ)
Engineseer 42 (Elite)
3x Stormtrooper Squads 150 (3 Troops)
6x Infantry Squads with lascannons, plasma guns 402 (6 troops)
2x 20-man Conscripts squads 120 (2 troops)
5x Rough Riders 50 (FA)
2x Sentinels wt lascannons 110 (2 FA)
Leman Russ wt Punisher cannon, 3xHF 193 (HS)
Leman Russ Executioner wt PC sponsons, hull HB 172 (HS)
2x Wyvern 186 (2 HS)
Manticore 133 (HS)

That's a 1913 point list, with 0 upgrades (except the one you listed) and doesn't have enough elites choices to form a whole Brigade, so it cannot include a Brigade as well as a battalion.

Probably just missing another Commissar in there, though that'd leave too few points to outfit the three storm trooper squads with plasma guns (being the most likely selection) since that'd be another 78pts for the PGs themselves.

Kind of a useless anecdote either way without the opposing list at minimum.

GhostRecon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
His list (I'm probably forgetting a thing or two, but he definitely had at least these)
Pask
Commissar
3x Primaris Psykers
Company Commander
Engineseer
3x Stormtrooper Squads
6x Infantry Squads with lascannons, plasma guns
2x 20-man Conscripts squads
5x Rough Riders
2x Sentinels wt lascannons
Leman Russ wt Punisher cannon, 3xHF
Leman Russ Executioner wt PC sponsons, hull HB
2x Wyvern
Manticore

What it boils down to is that an IG player can make a brigade at 2000pts without having to make any difficult choices. They can have their horde of infantry, their artillery, their rock-hard tanks, and their buffing characters all in one list. Heck, IG can probably make a brigade at 1500 without having to suffer too much pain in the process. A SM player of any stripe can make a brigade, but he has to choose the cheapest things possible across the board. There's a significant balance problem there.

Cheapest loadouts:

Pask 205 (HQ)
Commissar 30 (Elite)
3x Primaris Psykers 120 (3 HQ)
Company Commander 30 (HQ)
Engineseer 42 (Elite)
3x Stormtrooper Squads 150 (3 Troops)
6x Infantry Squads with lascannons, plasma guns 402 (6 troops)
2x 20-man Conscripts squads 120 (2 troops)
5x Rough Riders 50 (FA)
2x Sentinels wt lascannons 110 (2 FA)
Leman Russ wt Punisher cannon, 3xHF 193 (HS)
Leman Russ Executioner wt PC sponsons, hull HB 172 (HS)
2x Wyvern 186 (2 HS)
Manticore 133 (HS)

That's a 1913 point list, with 0 upgrades (except the one you listed) and doesn't have enough elites choices to form a whole Brigade, so it cannot include a Brigade as well as a battalion.

Probably just missing another Commissar in there, though that'd leave too few points to outfit the three storm trooper squads with plasma guns (being the most likely selection) since that'd be another 78pts for the PGs themselves.

Kind of a useless anecdote either way without the opposing list at minimum.

His list was -

My list
Sammael on Corvex
Techmarine
Venerable Dreadnought: twin autocannon, pf wt hf
Relic Whirlwind Scorpius
2x 10-man Tac Squad wt Rhinos
10-man Scout Squad
2x Land Speeder Typhoon
2x Whirlwind
Predator wt LC sponsons

But yeah, def not more than 1 brigade or 2 x battalions

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
So, I recently had a game against an IG-playing buddy. He's been dominating our local group since 8th dropped, and I tried to put together a list specifically tailored to take on the type of list he likes to play.

2000pt game. I fielded a battalion. He fielded a brigade and a battalion.

The lists

Spoiler:

His list (I'm probably forgetting a thing or two, but he definitely had at least these)
Pask
Commissar
3x Primaris Psykers
Company Commander
Engineseer
3x Stormtrooper Squads
6x Infantry Squads with lascannons, plasma guns
2x 20-man Conscripts squads
5x Rough Riders
2x Sentinels wt lascannons
Leman Russ wt Punisher cannon, 3xHF
Leman Russ Executioner wt PC sponsons, hull HB
2x Wyvern
Manticore

My list
Sammael on Corvex
Techmarine
Venerable Dreadnought: twin autocannon, pf wt hf
Relic Whirlwind Scorpius
2x 10-man Tac Squad wt Rhinos
10-man Scout Squad
2x Land Speeder Typhoon
2x Whirlwind
Predator wt LC sponsons

What it boils down to is that an IG player can make a brigade at 2000pts without having to make any difficult choices. They can have their horde of infantry, their artillery, their rock-hard tanks, and their buffing characters all in one list. Heck, IG can probably make a brigade at 1500 without having to suffer too much pain in the process. A SM player of any stripe can make a brigade, but he has to choose the cheapest things possible across the board. There's a significant balance problem there.

He does seem to be choosing many of the cheapest things possible here, including some units that are basically pure tax (his whole fast attack selection, for instance.) IG do make a brigade pretty damn easily, as does any horde-ier army with access to cheap troops. But 5-man squads of marines aren't exactly expensive, I just don't see people taking them.

your list, for instance, could have 6 troop squads just by splitting all those squads into 5-mans. That puts you at 2HQs, 2 I assume fast attacks for the land speeders, 3 HS, 2(?) elites.

What would you include/cut to make a brigade here? Sammael seems like a pretty expensive dude who doesn't do a lot, most special characters are like that. a barebones captain+Lieutenant is never a bad idea when you're looking at a significant gunline component of your army - they can pay for themselves in rerolls on expensive weapons like lascannons. If you're willing to spend a few points on mostly tax units, attack bikes fill out your fast attack slots really easily.

It seems like, from an outside perspective, he was willing to field min troop squads and use slots for cheap buffers (which probably made his army more efficient overall) and you went for a couple super inefficient options (Vendread with twin AC and PF+HF, for instance) plus a couple expensive options like the laspred and sammael. and you were still only 2-3 slots from a brigade.

1) Celestine and Girlyman are both undercosted by a significant amount. Also, some of their buffs ought to be confined to Sisters and Ultramarines respectively.

2) Imperials ability to take the strongest units across many imperial factions is a significant balance issue.

3) Imperial Guard is strong across the board, but Guard is far from broken across the board. If primaris psykers were 10-15 points more expensive it wouldn't hurt. On the other hand the Leman russes needed a buff.

4) Taking three battalions is often better than taking a brigade.

5) Ressurecting an avatar for 3CP's is not so bad. I mean, passing a morale check is two CP's, so it seems fair enough.

Kdash wrote:

His list was -

My list
Sammael on Corvex
Techmarine
Venerable Dreadnought: twin autocannon, pf wt hf
Relic Whirlwind Scorpius
2x 10-man Tac Squad wt Rhinos
10-man Scout Squad
2x Land Speeder Typhoon
2x Whirlwind
Predator wt LC sponsons

But yeah, def not more than 1 brigade or 2 x battalions

Ah, must have missed it, apologies for that.

Still, for a 'tailored list' - and ignoring the unfortunate fact that he's using an Index army vs a Codex one - it's pretty poorly focused to fight IG; even as a TAC it has pretty deep weaknesses. At a minimum: Typhoons are overpriced and fragile for what they give you; the Whirlwind Scorpius is the same... 215pts for 3d3 Str6 Ap-2 Dm2 shots isn't great. So there's at least 505pts that could be better spent elsewhere.

Would need to know the load outs of the Tactical Squads to comment on those; were the Rhinos for screening?

Also better to split the scouts into two squads of five - means he can't focus fire like he can the squad of 10.

Sammael isn't bad, but the list isn't doing much to take advantage of him except for the two Typhoons - which, as touched on earlier, aren't great atm (GW really overvalues the typhoon launcher at 50pts).

Might get more mileage out of something like this: