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 vipoid wrote:

Which is great if you only used Commissars for Conscripts.

If you used Commissars for anything else, then GW gives you the middle finger.

What were you using commissars for before?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Right, yes.

Commissars are gone (bye, Officio Praefectus!).

But Conscripts are still absolutely viable - that's my point. Our screens are still there.

My take is the opposite, still useful for small squads providing the leadership bonus and a second chance to pass the roll but conscript squads that lose just under a dozen are now pretty much guaranteed to rout, all the enemy has to do is anticipate how many they need to kill to cause the rest to rout then move on to other targets, they no longer have to finish the unit because the commissar can no longer save it.

 daedalus wrote:
What were you using commissars for before?

Mainly Infantry Squads. Occasionally other stuff like SWSs (when I include them) and HWSs (if I can get them within the aura).

 vipoid wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
What were you using commissars for before?

Mainly Infantry Squads. Occasionally other stuff like SWSs (when I include them) and HWSs (if I can get them within the aura).

Huh. I always considered commissars ineffective for HWS. It only helps 33% of the time.

 daedalus wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
What were you using commissars for before?

Mainly Infantry Squads. Occasionally other stuff like SWSs (when I include them) and HWSs (if I can get them within the aura).

Huh. I always considered commissars ineffective for HWS. It only helps 33% of the time.

I don't use Commissars specifically for HWSs, but since I typically include both in the same list (or used to, anyway), I might as well try and get them within the Commissar's aura if I can.

I got that from the first comment. It just literally never occurred to me until your comment that it would even be marginally useful.

I'm honestly not convinced it's really that worthwhile for infantry either.

This FAQ will give Martel a boner.

WatcherZero wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Right, yes.

Commissars are gone (bye, Officio Praefectus!).

But Conscripts are still absolutely viable - that's my point. Our screens are still there.

My take is the opposite, still useful for small squads providing the leadership bonus and a second chance to pass the roll but conscript squads that lose just under a dozen are now pretty much guaranteed to rout, all the enemy has to do is anticipate how many they need to kill to cause the rest to rout then move on to other targets, they no longer have to finish the unit because the commissar can no longer save it.

Right but there are 4 ways to outright ignore morale losses that remain for IG armies.

Conscripts aren't going anywhere.

 daedalus wrote:
I got that from the first comment. It just literally never occurred to me until your comment that it would even be marginally useful.

Regarding HWSs, it rarely matters (usually they're either dead or fine), but occasionally it helps.

As I said though, I don't take Commissars for them. They just used to get the benefit every once in a while.

 daedalus wrote:
I'm honestly not convinced it's really that worthwhile for infantry either.

The main benefit for Infantry is making sure your special/heavy weapons survive after the rest of the squad has been wiped out.

To be honest, I agree with you that, even then, the benefit is questionable. However, that just makes the nerf worse.

 Galas wrote:
This FAQ will give Martel a boner.

Awesome. So we've answered the initial thrust of the post - no more Take Cover for tanks (great) no more Commissars for....well, tournaments. They're now a "for fun" unit, doesn't really affect my army anyhow since I didn't use Conscripts but those are now gone.

We'll see if Baneblade lists are strong enough to hold up without Conscripts, but I doubt it, I'm guessing the default is now back to Guilliman Asscan soup and Magnus+Morty+Alphabet soup monster mash as the meta lists.

All in all, I call it a good FAQ. Guard is still good, and varied, just not as obnoxious to play against.

WatcherZero wrote:
Forgeworld update pretty much updates rules and unit buffs to same as codex and as expected the clarification that Krieg/Elysian abilities are existing regimental doctrines and they cant take another. There is one major nerf though, Master of Ordinance only affects motorised artillery doesn't buff Earthshaker stationary/carriages.

Never did affect them, or any variant (such as the Armageddon Pattern Basilisk), so not really a nerf.

Niiru wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

gungo wrote:
I'm just going to leave this here!
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/22/new-faqs-and-errata-for-the-astra-militarum-and-beyond-oct-22gw-homepage-post-1/
Commissar nerfs, grinding advance for all, bodyguard nerf, grav chute nerf (no more 20in drop), master of ordnance nerf(only codex artillery), tallarn strategem nerf, send in next wave cost points, dagger relic nerf, GSC brood brother massive nerf. Elysian plasmagun finally 2 damage but still OP as fek with drop assault rule, none of the malcador have grinding advance rule :(, no more spamming command squads in Elysian or dkok armies.

Whoah, the Commissar one is big. Not sure exactly how big, but it's something. Lol at murder enforced ATSKNF.

Speaking personally, I can't see myself ever using Commissars after this.

(To clarify, I didn't use them for Conscripts - just Infantry Squads).

I'd be paying points to kill one of my models and then potentially lose the same number of models (or more) anyway. And that would be in addition to the model I had to kill just for the privilege.

Just not worth it in my view.

Well they're now the same buff as other army's leader choices, they still upgrade your infanrty/conscript units leadership from 4/6 to 8, which is all the boost to morale most army's get from leaders that cheap.

I do notice that the re-roll is compulsory though, which is odd. I'd have expected it to be a choice. So if you only fail by 1, you just take the model loss, but if you roll a 6 and lose like 4 models, then you can choose to re-roll as it would likely be an improvement.
But the new rules seems to say you must roll if you fail, so you do risk losing more guys. Odd. That might get tweaked into being a choice.

Minor nitpick, but the Sergeant of the Infantry Squad is Leadership 7, so you are paying a minimum of 31 points for a +1 Leadership and the chance to take extra losses from morale.

 vipoid wrote:

Niiru wrote:

This makes Conscripts a choice, rather than a must-take. Isn't a bad thing.

Which is great if you only used Commissars for Conscripts.

If you used Commissars for anything else, then GW gives you the middle finger.

Yup....in my 2-3 games of 8th so far, I've used Yarrick + Infantry Squads. Well, at least with leadership 9, it puts the poor sods in a better position than a regular Commissar.

Still, besides this and Send in the Next Wave, the faq seems perfectly fine to me. No more Ogryn conga lines diving in front of each other to be the first to get in front of Pask.

 Galas wrote:
This FAQ will give Martel a boner.

Not really, my army is equally invalidated by 4 pt guardsmen. But I'm glad to see conscripts get the BA treatment.

The big issue to me is just that the Commissars were over-nerfed. Don't really have an issue with the other changes (though it does also make Send In The Next Wave utterly pointless, but that's probably fine, free stuff isn't my favorite thing anyway), but Commissar's now are just mostly non-functional in their intended role, nobody thought this change out about how that actually works in practice.

I'm trying to ponder the value of Sentinels as a screening force now...

Don't really care about commissars. IG only have 25 other fantastic units to field.

Seems to me Commissars would be just about right if they added the sentence: Take the better of the two rolls.

this is a vulgar and mean-spirited nerf, I have to wonder if all the haters with space marine armies were the reason GW capitulated

LoyalGuardsman69 wrote:
this is a vulgar and mean-spirited nerf, I have to wonder if all the haters with space marine armies were the reason GW capitulated

It's just GW. They're really, almost intentionally, bad at game design.

That said, it's not exactly the end of the world either.

Ironically, GW found a way to make the silly banners relevant again, can now get the same ld as a commissar for 1 pt cheaper that way.

I can’t see myself ever intentionally bringing a commissar now. I really wish they’d just deleted the flicking conscripts and left the other units alone.

 argonak wrote:
Ironically, GW found a way to make the silly banners relevant again, can now get the same ld as a commissar for 1 pt cheaper that way.

I can’t see myself ever intentionally bringing a commissar now. I really wish they’d just deleted the flicking conscripts and left the other units alone.

2 Points cheaper - you are forgetting the mandatory bolt pistol. Also one extra wound, more ranged attacks and customization options, etc. The con of course is that they can be targeted from the word go, as they don't have the [character] tag.

LoyalGuardsman69 wrote:
this is a vulgar and mean-spirited nerf, I have to wonder if all the haters with space marine armies were the reason GW capitulated

Eh. I'm just hopeful we'll see sanity (nerfs) applied to other certain abusive units.

Cough Cough Mary Sue Named Characters Cough.

We now live in a world where you have to pay "reinforcement Points" (i.e. the "we never want to see this in matched play" rule) for the privilege of paying CP to resurrect a dead conscript squad...you know, in case you didn't want to pay to just start with them on the board, save your CP, and actually get MORE cp.

oh, but over here, it's perfectly fine for celestine to resurrect a full-HP, multi wound close combat character every single turn, for free, as well as resurrect herself anywhere on the board on a 2+. That's fine. Not frustrating to play against at all.

Hordes are/have been a big problem. it's great to see that addressed, just like it was great to see flyers addressed. So far, named characters/characters in general have escaped the balance-bat, and I'm thinking they need to be next on the chopping block.

Kdash wrote:

gungo wrote:

Considering conscripts are ld4 and a commissar was the only way to substantially increase thier leadership anyway. Commissars are pretty much required for conscripts still. Even if you take catachan (+1 ld) and platoon banner(+1 ld), ld 6 means you have a chance losing models to morale with even 1 casualty. A commissar makes that same unit ld 10 and thus not only can you reroll a bad morale roll you need to take 5 casualties and roll a 6 twice on morale to lose a casualty. Odds are you need to take 8-9 casualties before you lose a model for morale near a commissar. And no I would never take a commissar for a 10 man unit with ld7 (8 if catachan)already.

But if your playing conscripts still (and combined infantry to a smaller degree) and not using the vahallan relic or draconian discipline a commissar is a huge bonus. The main point of the commissar is now spreading his leadership 8/9 around especially to ld4 and ld7 units.

One thing to clarify, commissars can't get any unit to ld 10. The max a normal one can get them to is 8, and Yarrick/Lord Commissars only get them to 9. This is because they don't benefit from the catachan trait or the platoon banner etc due to them being a different "regiment".

Personally, i think the best way to go right now is just take the Valhallan relic if you want to keep running massive blobs. Other than that, i'd go for infantry squads. As soon as a conscript squad looses 8 men with a standard commissar next to them, they will loose d6+1 models from the unit, as you don't get a choice as to whether or not you use the ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can understand the change for Send in the Next Wave stratagem costing reinforcement points - but it now just feels off when compared to Tide of Traitors.

A little annoyed about the Tallaran stratagem change as well. Would still be useable if it was changed to 1-2 units for 1/3 CP like some of the others. Right now, i'm not going to use 3cp to just outflank 1 russ and then 2 infantry squads.

NO what I mean is the conscript squad uses the commissar leadership and then the conscript squad adds +1 leadership from catachan or banner... meaning leadership 8/9 and then add +1 or +2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:
I got that from the first comment. It just literally never occurred to me until your comment that it would even be marginally useful.

I'm honestly not convinced it's really that worthwhile for infantry either.

the thing with hws near a commissar they use his leadership so a ld6 hws becomes ld8/9 and immune to morale. Since they would need to take 3 casualties and roll a 6 to even fail morale. There are only 3 models in a hws.

Pretty sure the catachan trait is actually overridden by the Commissar.

The commissar isn't Catachan (he's Schola Progenium), so he doesn't get the bonus.

The Commissar doesn't add a value to the unit's LD, it replaces the unit's LD with his own regardless of what it was before.

So the order of operations is like this:

*Infantry unit gets +1LD from Catachans, bringing it to 8 if the Sgt is alive.

*Commissar replaces the Infantry unit's LD with his own, bringing it from 8 to 8.

I can't believe how many AM players are saying how Conscripts are unplayable now. To me, it just means they are now the same kind of unit as Chaos Cultists, except they have a chance to get the benefit of Orders. No more impossible to shift Conscript screens, now they can take morale tests just like everyone else, and they can get a buff to their morale from Commissars same as Chaos Cultists can get a buff from Dark Apostles (and it should be noted that Cultists are more expensive than Conscripts and Dark Apostles are much more expensive than Commissars). The main thing I can see this hurting is Imperial Soup lists that just shoved conscripts into Guilliman Gunline lists as cheap bubble wrap. They may still perform that function, but the same way as other troops, as in once they take fire they'll run, just like everyone else's. Personally I love the nerf, as huge units that are immune to morale are just no fun to play against.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I can't believe how many AM players are saying how Conscripts are unplayable now. To me, it just means they are now the same kind of unit as Chaos Cultists, except they have a chance to get the benefit of Orders. No more impossible to shift Conscript screens, now they can take morale tests just like everyone else, and they can get a buff to their morale from Commissars same as Chaos Cultists can get a buff from Dark Apostles (and it should be noted that Cultists are more expensive than Conscripts and Dark Apostles are much more expensive than Commissars). The main thing I can see this hurting is Imperial Soup lists that just shoved conscripts into Guilliman Gunline lists as cheap bubble wrap. They may still perform that function, but the same way as other troops, as in once they take fire they'll run, just like everyone else's. Personally I love the nerf, as huge units that are immune to morale are just no fun to play against.

I think it's more that the nerf essentially makes the Summary Execution ability pointless given that the risk-reward ration on that ability is so poorly weighted, and that as a result, there's no reason to take Conscripts when you can just take Infantry squads instead, and the value in normal (as opposed to Lord) Commissar's has dropped precipitously (if you're effectively buying them just for the Ld bubble now, the Lord Commissar is superior investment and in the common Brigade detachment that so many IG armies roll with, there's not many slot issues).

Indeed; I think I've said before that I think conscripts are still playable. It's the Commissars who are unplayable; as it stands, they're about as likely to harm than hurt I believe, except if you bring infantry squads, in which case you're paying the price of eight guardsmen to try to save 3 or 4 maybe sometimes.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I can't believe how many AM players are saying how Conscripts are unplayable now. To me, it just means they are now the same kind of unit as Chaos Cultists, except they have a chance to get the benefit of Orders. No more impossible to shift Conscript screens, now they can take morale tests just like everyone else, and they can get a buff to their morale from Commissars same as Chaos Cultists can get a buff from Dark Apostles (and it should be noted that Cultists are more expensive than Conscripts and Dark Apostles are much more expensive than Commissars). The main thing I can see this hurting is Imperial Soup lists that just shoved conscripts into Guilliman Gunline lists as cheap bubble wrap. They may still perform that function, but the same way as other troops, as in once they take fire they'll run, just like everyone else's. Personally I love the nerf, as huge units that are immune to morale are just no fun to play against.

Unplayable?

No.

Lacking any kind of a role compared to competing options within the codex?

Yes.

Conscripts are now similar to what Blood Claws were in 5th edition Space Wolves: They exist, you can use them, and there are theoretical benefits to using them, but the competing option using the same models in the same role doing the same job simply does it better. in this case, a 10-man infantry squad with no upgrades. For 1 point more you get 2 points in LD, a min squad size of 10 which further limits LD casualties, and no roll for orders. That will be always worth 1 point.

Is this a bad thing for the health of the game? No, in my opinion it is not, and there are other, similar units (brimstone and blue horrors for instance) that I think would be fine if they were nerfed to the point where they were never a purely competitive option, because excessive blobs of cheap chaff are annoying to play against and shove out many other options from competitive play.

I view it similar to how in competitive video games, certain characters are more difficult/interesting to play, so they're given a reward of slightly higher power if played perfectly, which hopefully means that simpler, more one-dimensional characters don't force them out. Newer or more casual players don't notice, because they're not playing so perfectly that the difference matters, but it stops the game from getting boring at the top level.

That's what I'd like to see happen with Conscripts as well as certain problematic named characters with balance aimed at breaking up current "soup" lists. Because practically nobody at a casual level actually plays Celestine+Guilliman+Conscripts+whatever or Magnus+Mortarion+Alphabet Soup+Brimstones, they could easily nerf those combinations of disparate elements without affecting someone who wants to casually play Guilliman or Magnus or whoever.

Hmm seems like they overtuned the commissars down. It's fine to me that they needed to do something, if the counter to hordes is supposed to be morale. I do hope all the other hordes see some sort of similar weakness applied. The send in the next wave nerf just seems derpy. Like I get paying reinforcement points for summoning, but where you're removing a unit and paying CP it seems a bit much. Also if I remember correctly not everyone who has this strat got this nerf in their faq.

The Commissar/Conscript interaction had to be adjusted but this fix seems poorly executed to me.

The Commissar ability should've only worked against Shooting like the DKOK (cult of sacrifice), at least for lesser/un trained Conscripts. This is more fluffy imo...

No matter how scary your Commissar is, a nasty charge is gonna break lesser/un trained Conscripts.

There just isn't much reason to field a Commissar now with the FAQ.

Darkagl1 wrote:
Hmm seems like they overtuned the commissars down. It's fine to me that they needed to do something, if the counter to hordes is supposed to be morale. I do hope all the other hordes see some sort of similar weakness applied. The send in the next wave nerf just seems derpy. Like I get paying reinforcement points for summoning, but where you're removing a unit and paying CP it seems a bit much. Also if I remember correctly not everyone who has this strat got this nerf in their faq.

Yeah it's a big blow to the potential of a regiment that isn't Catachan or Cadian. What master strategist is going to pay the points up front for an infantry unit in reserve whose arrival time is determined by the other player? And when it does come in from reserve it ... walks on from the edge !