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It also makes them useless to Regular Inf. Squads. The lose 5 Guys from shooting, they go to morale with ld 7, 2 or lower to pass, maybe 2-3 more guys die. With commissar however it makes them have a ld 8. 1-2 die off extra, +1 more, and you got to reroll it for a higher chance of failure. What are we gaining from them? Nothing there ain't much left.

Why couldn't they just make the freaking reroll optional ffs. Was the max 1 death from moral so game breaking?

How about have it only effect one unit per turn as he can only shoot one guy at a time?

The rewrite on commissars it gak

"Was the max 1 death from moral so game breaking? "

Yes, it was. The IG is still full of overpowered units, you'll be fine.

 Davidian wrote:
Why couldn't they just make the freaking reroll optional ffs. Was the max 1 death from moral so game breaking?

How about have it only effect one unit per turn as he can only shoot one guy at a time?

The rewrite on commissars it gak

Yes completely ignoring moral casualties at the cost of 3/4 points per test was broken as f. esp when entire armies resolve around moral (Night Lords)

Commissars don't care if falling back is correct or not. If you run he will shoot you. Would make no sense for it to be optional.

Actually Commissars completely care if falling back is correct or not.

In fact, the Death Korps of Krieg are issued Commissars specifically to ensure they fall back when it is necessary rather than fighting to the last man.

Depending on the Commissar, of course. You've got your not one step back hardliners, and you've got your Gaunts and Caines.

Presumably, the hardliners want to get transferred to the Death Korps and are perpetually disappointed.

Ordana wrote:

 Davidian wrote:
Why couldn't they just make the freaking reroll optional ffs. Was the max 1 death from moral so game breaking?

How about have it only effect one unit per turn as he can only shoot one guy at a time?

The rewrite on commissars it gak

Yes completely ignoring moral casualties at the cost of 3/4 points per test was broken as f. esp when entire armies resolve around moral (Night Lords)

Commissars don't care if falling back is correct or not. If you run he will shoot you. Would make no sense for it to be optional.

when all your saving is a handfull of conscripts, what does it matter? They fall down in a stiff breaze before moral rolls happen but Synapse and Regenerating 10 dead termagants a turn for free is okay though

I don't even use the codex. It has just astounded me how much a mess it is in terms of balance followed up with how unmeasured the rebalance attempt has been. I just feel they've missed the mark.

Like Martel said, it's still full of overpowered stuff.

I'm happy just using the index with my Schola Progenium themed stormtrooper/commissariat army.

My marines can gun down that bug making the termagants viable. Plus, termagants have worse armor and a worse gun for the same cost as a guardmen. Not a problem in general.

Martel732 wrote:
My marines can gun down that bug making the termagants viable. Plus, termagants have worse armor and a worse gun for the same cost as a guardmen. Not a problem in general.

I thought marines couldn't kill anything?

Not efficiently, but they do better vs termagants than guardsmen.

So when the Space Wolves primarch releases, every Imperial Guard player needs to grab seven of him and field them since their codex has a datasheet for him. He's been in the eye of terror for 10,000 years doing his grinding advance on the likes of chaos.

Oh if anyone wonders where his battle cannon is, recite these three words: Fus Roh Dah. Space Wolves are basically Nords.

 Davidian wrote:
I'm happy just using the index with my Schola Progenium themed stormtrooper/commissariat army.

Then I want to use my 3rd edition Dark Eldar codex with super cheap and spammable dark lances.

You can't ignore nerfs/changes just because you don't like them.

Yes I can.... Try and stop me XD

the_scotsman wrote:
Awesome. So we've answered the initial thrust of the post - no more Take Cover for tanks (great) no more Commissars for....well, tournaments. They're now a "for fun" unit, doesn't really affect my army anyhow since I didn't use Conscripts but those are now gone.

We'll see if Baneblade lists are strong enough to hold up without Conscripts, but I doubt it, I'm guessing the default is now back to Guilliman Asscan soup and Magnus+Morty+Alphabet soup monster mash as the meta lists.

All in all, I call it a good FAQ. Guard is still good, and varied, just not as obnoxious to play against.

My 3 Shadowsword (+2 Punishers) list has 60 Valhallan Conscripts. My 2 Shadowsword (+4 Russ including. Pask) list has 60 Valhallan Conscripts. In fact I don't even know what's being discussed here. The bubble wrap is alive and well. Guilliman Asscan soup is trash.

Oh ye, Commissars are dead. Good thing we still have the MK45. And even if we didn't, 180 points into the mandatory troops just to block the deep strikes for a turn and to eat some shots or assaults isn't bad, even if they blow up to morale. In fact I think the whole Commissar issue for 90% of shooty armies was completely overblown. Where Commissars were an issue were true horde armies with 200 Conscripts or more, but they were a huge minority.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Then I want to use my 3rd edition Dark Eldar codex

This argument is tiring, lazy, and no one buys in to it but you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I thought marines couldn't kill anything?

Hey, be nice. You don't want to cause Martel to have an aneurysm over his cognitive dissonance.

 Therion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Awesome. So we've answered the initial thrust of the post - no more Take Cover for tanks (great) no more Commissars for....well, tournaments. They're now a "for fun" unit, doesn't really affect my army anyhow since I didn't use Conscripts but those are now gone.

We'll see if Baneblade lists are strong enough to hold up without Conscripts, but I doubt it, I'm guessing the default is now back to Guilliman Asscan soup and Magnus+Morty+Alphabet soup monster mash as the meta lists.

All in all, I call it a good FAQ. Guard is still good, and varied, just not as obnoxious to play against.

My 3 Shadowsword (+2 Punishers) list has 60 Valhallan Conscripts. My 2 Shadowsword (+4 Russ including. Pask) list has 60 Valhallan Conscripts. In fact I don't even know what's being discussed here. The bubble wrap is alive and well. Guilliman Asscan soup is trash.

Oh ye, Commissars are dead. Good thing we still have the MK45. And even if we didn't, 180 points into the mandatory troops just to block the deep strikes for a turn and to eat some shots or assaults isn't bad, even if they blow up to morale. In fact I think the whole Commissar issue for 90% of shooty armies was completely overblown. Where Commissars were an issue were true horde armies with 200 Conscripts or more, but they were a huge minority.

I'm curious. How many times have you had the new Commissar ability trigger (not counting the MK45)? The complaint about commissars is his dangerous nature for standard infantry and heavy weapon squads. I've been trying it and the Commissar has already double-tapped squads out of existence, killing the remaining 3-4 members of the squad.


I agree the nerf is minor for conscript horde lovers, but that's an additional part of the problem.

How on earth did your commisar damage your heavy squad? He turns them liturally immune to moral (sans debuffs)


As for the banner comparison.
Yes, banners are better for infantry squads.
And commisar are better for conscripts/heavy/special/ratling squads
Different moral control units are better at different scenarios? What madness!
Not having a single "always best" option is terrible!

Martel732 wrote:
Not efficiently, but they do better vs termagants than guardsmen.

I meant the Tervigon.

 Davidian wrote:
Why couldn't they just make the freaking reroll optional ffs. Was the max 1 death from moral so game breaking?

How about have it only effect one unit per turn as he can only shoot one guy at a time?

The rewrite on commissars it gak

Yes it was quite game breaking, the way it was at least. We had some if the bravest infantry in the game, and there were no real counters to it. Like I've mentioned elsewhere, it was basically "hope you brought snipers" or "be able to mathematically beat IG at their own game in a slugging match through mass firepower", you know, what we want to do in the first place

However, as you mention, limiting the commissar to only being able to pop one squad a turn would be an interesting tweak (and honestly how it should've been anyways since he could rattle off 10 executions a morale phase like he had a minigun) it would probably still be a bit too good as then people would just buy a commissar for every conscript squad and keep on doing the same old thing, but it would at least make sense and cut down his shenanigans a bit .

The big issue is "kill one model, unit autopasses". You can make the unit -100 leadership, the commissar -100 leadership, and deal a ton of casualties, and it didn't do anything, the Guard player still lost one model. That's not working as intended. Lorewise Commissars are terrifying individuals and can absolutely hold a line together through whatever means they deem necessary, but they're by no means a guarantee and men have been known to rebel or just straight up ignore him in truly dire situations. We were second only to TYRANIDS when it came to morale. Necron Warriors, Space Marines, Chaos Marines, Orks, Mechanicus, etc. Were all far more vulnerable to morale than guardsmen, that's not quite right. Especially not for a measly 31 points.

They could have gone a lot of routes, this is the one they chose. Maybe they could have gone and done kill 1 conscript = the rest have leadership 10 for the turn. Harder to cause losses without erasing the squad's immunity to morale.

They went with the option they chose. Just as they went with immunity to morale before. Complaints and balance made it change once, you can make it change again to a third option. Just keep giving GW feedback and lets see how conscripts fare.

Okay, humour me for a minute. How about.... All models in the unit must be within 6" of the commissar to benefit from the rule. If not, the unit only gains a reroll to failed moral tests.

Boom.

My issue is that they took one of the fluffiest rules of cool and scrapped it because of the way it interacts with one other unit.

It was a sheeeite answer to the problem. I had high hopes for 8h ed but it's beginning to show the cracks in the rules writing ability....

... Idk. I might just give up on this

 Davidian wrote:
Okay, humour me for a minute. How about.... All models in the unit must be within 6" of the commissar to benefit from the rule. If not, the unit only gains a reroll to failed moral tests.

Boom.

My issue is that they took one of the fluffiest rules of cool and scrapped it because of the way it interacts with one other unit.

It was a sheeeite answer to the problem. I had high hopes for 8h ed but it's beginning to show the cracks in the rules writing ability....

... Idk. I might just give up on this

My solution: remove the morale phase entirely! Summary Execution allows a unit to suffer a mortal wound to get a reroll of choice for it or the Commissar! Mostly jesting here, but the Morale phase is basically just an awkward phase that shows prejudice towards certain factions and unit types. Maybe make it interesting by scaling the Leadership of the unit up as the unit size grows, starting off a lot lower globally to benefit large squads while making minimal squads still have to worry about it somewhat.

I do agree with some of those points PT. pre 8th I was hopeful for a more granular, scaling moral mechanic but we got battleshock :/

Purifying Tempest wrote:

 Davidian wrote:
Okay, humour me for a minute. How about.... All models in the unit must be within 6" of the commissar to benefit from the rule. If not, the unit only gains a reroll to failed moral tests.

Boom.

My issue is that they took one of the fluffiest rules of cool and scrapped it because of the way it interacts with one other unit.

It was a sheeeite answer to the problem. I had high hopes for 8h ed but it's beginning to show the cracks in the rules writing ability....

... Idk. I might just give up on this

My solution: remove the morale phase entirely! Summary Execution allows a unit to suffer a mortal wound to get a reroll of choice for it or the Commissar! Mostly jesting here, but the Morale phase is basically just an awkward phase that shows prejudice towards certain factions and unit types. Maybe make it interesting by scaling the Leadership of the unit up as the unit size grows, starting off a lot lower globally to benefit large squads while making minimal squads still have to worry about it somewhat.

Moral exists as a balance against Hordes, it makes weapons better against large groups (since more die from moral) without hurting elite armies (who uses smaller squads and are often near dead by the time they can even fail the test.

The mistake was then making all the hordes immune to moral...

Well now Tyranids are Immune, this time with no losses possible from moral from what the preview said.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Well now Tyranids are Immune, this time with no losses possible from moral from what the preview said.

Gaunts. The new conscripts.

Only if they cost 3 pts each and have a 5+ armor. Oh and get orders that basically duplicate their firepower and a few other tricks.

So yeah no.

Tyran wrote:
Oh and get orders that basically duplicate their firepower and a few other tricks.

So yeah no.

I'm willing to bet they'll get some kind of aura bonus from Tyranid characters. As others have said, Orders are the Guard officer'sofficer's version if that.

Not to mention Tervigon replacements...

 Spinner wrote:

Tyran wrote:
Oh and get orders that basically duplicate their firepower and a few other tricks.

So yeah no.

I'm willing to bet they'll get some kind of aura bonus from Tyranid characters. As others have said, Orders are the Guard officer'sofficer's version if that.

Not to mention Tervigon replacements...

They... do get an aura. It's synapse. Synapse is the aura.

Still I wouldn't be surprised if at least one Tyranid faction gained the ability to set their blenders to " puree" (either granting an extra fight phase, which seems a popular trick this edition, or granting extra attacks).

What's less clear is whether it would be restricted to gaunts, or if they'll be able to use it on killier stuff.

As far as people trying to claim the "entire codex is still OP", if you make a big claim like that you've gotta show your work.

Though I wonder how they make sense of this logic triangle:
1: tactical marines with bolters are the worst unit in the game and can't kill anything.
2: shooty gaunts are the gold standard of balance and guardsmen should be made exactly equal to them.
3: tactical marines with bolters slaughter shooty gaunts with ease.