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 Blacksails wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

I had marines in mid 4th. Jump Pack Chaplain + Lightning Claws = nitrus-boosted turbo-blender. I threw a Melta Bomb on him once and he plowed through 2 walkers and 40 infantry in 3 turns.

Was 4th also the rhino rush era? Or was that 3rd?

I used rhino rush with my Zerkers.

Because again, Nitrus-boosted Turbo Blender.

I did see Dark Angels players use Rhino Rush, but that was because they got the cheap rhinos (35 points! and Razors were 55) until 5th ed SMs came out (and it was horribly unfair at the time when the cheapest non-marine transport you could get was 70 points).

It's fine. I'm capable of admitting that BA were straight up unfair in 3rd and very strong in 5th. Marines were also strong in 3rd, but lacked overcharged Rhinos, and were far inferior in 5th, as they didn't have assault marine troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

I had marines in mid 4th. Jump Pack Chaplain + Lightning Claws = nitrus-boosted turbo-blender. I threw a Melta Bomb on him once and he plowed through 2 walkers and 40 infantry in 3 turns.

Was 4th also the rhino rush era? Or was that 3rd?

I used rhino rush with my Zerkers.

Because again, Nitrus-boosted Turbo Blender.

I did see Dark Angels players use Rhino Rush, but that was because they got the cheap rhinos (35 points! and Razors were 55) until 5th ed SMs came out (and it was horribly unfair at the time when the cheapest non-marine transport you could get was 70 points).

When rhino rush failed in 4th, it failed spectacularly, though.

Martel732 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Marines started 3rd as stupid OP and ended shockingly average. They were unplayable against competitive players in 2nd. Marines traditional spot is shockingly mediocre is you average everything out. Which I"m fine with, actually. They were the very definition of average in 5th, maybe a bit below average, actually.

I'd put them as the average in 5th. They could win tourneys with some combos, but were good to play with and against with good variety of usable units. I liked 5th ed marines, but then again, I liked 5th overall, so maybe I'm biased.

There were too many lists better than them to be called average. Every snowflake power armor list, including CSM (only because of one build, though), the Orks, and I'd say DE were all better.

Space Marines did just fine in 5E.

Given the below armies that existed in 5E...

Daemons
Guard
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Grey Knights
Space Wolves
Black Templars
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Orks
Tau
Necrons
Chaos Space Marines
Sisters
Inquisition
Tyranids

...lets be real, out of these, Codex: Space Marines was clearly above Tyranids, Inquisition, Sisters, Chaos Space Marines, Orks, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Black Templars, Dark Angels, and Daemons (with basically just Fateweaver builds being particularly competitive), and Necrons for most of the edition too since they didn't get their codex until the last 6 months of the edition. That's most of the armies in the game. They could be arguably on par with Blood Angels, and only really were below GK, IG and SW's. At *worst* they were "average", and they dominated the first year of tournaments (I think I saw Vulkan He'Stan in literally every single SM army for that year too).

The marine codex problem has always made me chuckle. I think it was 5th when Space Wolves had a different drop pod capacity than Vanilla Marines. Classic GW.

I've always been a strong proponent of one larger marine codex so that all the basic wargear and units can be costed the same, and then just toss on a chapter tactic, some characters, and call it a day. Maybe then Martel and his Angry Red (totally not berserker) Marines can at least play with the big boys in the sandbox instead of being relegated to eating glue in the corner.

I think we call all agree that Xenomancers is completely out to lunch by claiming that marines in 7th were the worst codex in the game. I'm glad I shared this chuckle with you all. Also thanks for the 40k history lesson. Always fun stuff.

I found the Orks MUCH harder to beat than space marines. You have to rank them higher. They were horrifying. DE also worked better in 5th with dark lance spam. Also, I'd rank dual lash princes build above anything SM could field, even Vulkan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:
The marine codex problem has always made me chuckle. I think it was 5th when Space Wolves had a different drop pod capacity than Vanilla Marines. Classic GW.

I've always been a strong proponent of one larger marine codex so that all the basic wargear and units can be costed the same, and then just toss on a chapter tactic, some characters, and call it a day. Maybe then Martel and his Angry Red (totally not berserker) Marines can at least play with the big boys in the sandbox instead of being relegated to eating glue in the corner.

They did that with the index, and then made every single BA-specific unit way overcosted. Because red paint, I guess.

 Blacksails wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:I actually liked 5th too! My army was ridiculously bad (as tanks couldn't score, even as troops) but it was still really very fun.

I feel like the 5th Edition Armoured Company list hit that fluffy sweet-spot, even if it never won a game. I loved it and miss it dearly.

I played 7 Russes and 5 Chimeras in 5th when I wasn't powerblobbing. I knew squadrons were awful stuff, but it was a riot when you get all the executioners in range to drop 9 small plasma plates on someone.

I played the Armoured Battlegroup list, and it was a time when the tanks could still do fluffy things but were cheaper than the 4e Armoured Company iteration, meaning you could run a full company of 10 rather than like 5-7.

I still remember my list because it was the same Every Game!

HQ 1: Vanquisher with Co-Axial Stubber and Lascannon, Battle-Hardened Crew (the 4+ save against Crew Shaken), Extra Armour (the Company Command tank)
HQ 2: Leman Russ Vanquisher with Co-Axial Stubber and Lascannon, Battle-Hardened Crew, Extra Armour (the Company XO and command tank of 1st Squadron)

Elites Choice 1: Commissar Leman Russ Battle Tank with Extra Armour, Battle Hardened Crew (Command Tank, 2nd Squadron)
Elites Choice 2: Commissar Leman Russ Battle Tank with Extra Armour, Battle Hardened Crew (Command Tank, 3rd Squadron)

Troops Choice 1: Leman Russ Thunderer with Extra Armor, Battle Hardened Crew (2nd Tank, 1st Squadron)
Troops Choice 2: Leman Russ Thunderer with Extra Armor, Battle Hardened Crew (3rd Tank, 1st Squadron)
Troops Choice 3: Leman Russ Battle Tank with Extra Armour, Battle Hardened Crew (2nd Tank, 2nd Squadron)
Troops Choice 4: Leman Russ Battle Tank with Extra Armour, Battle Hardened Crew (3rd Tank, 2nd Squadron)
Troops Choice 5: Leman Russ Battle Tank with Extra Armour, Battle Hardened Crew (2nd Tank, 3rd Squadron)
Troops Choice 6: Leman Russ Battle Tank with Extra Armour, Battle Hardened Crew (3rd Tank, 3rd Squadron)

Martel732 wrote:

They did that with the index, and then made every single BA-specific unit way overcosted. Because red paint, I guess.

What I'm saying is that when the marine codex came out, it should have also had BA in it, not have BA in a completely different book that you have to wait for.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Spoiler:

 Blacksails wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:I actually liked 5th too! My army was ridiculously bad (as tanks couldn't score, even as troops) but it was still really very fun.

I feel like the 5th Edition Armoured Company list hit that fluffy sweet-spot, even if it never won a game. I loved it and miss it dearly.

I played 7 Russes and 5 Chimeras in 5th when I wasn't powerblobbing. I knew squadrons were awful stuff, but it was a riot when you get all the executioners in range to drop 9 small plasma plates on someone.

I played the Armoured Battlegroup list, and it was a time when the tanks could still do fluffy things but were cheaper than the 4e Armoured Company iteration, meaning you could run a full company of 10 rather than like 5-7.

I still remember my list because it was the same Every Game!

HQ 1: Vanquisher with Co-Axial Stubber and Lascannon, Battle-Hardened Crew (the 4+ save against Crew Shaken), Extra Armour (the Company Command tank)
HQ 2: Leman Russ Vanquisher with Co-Axial Stubber and Lascannon, Battle-Hardened Crew, Extra Armour (the Company XO and command tank of 1st Squadron)

Elites Choice 1: Commissar Leman Russ Battle Tank with Extra Armour, Battle Hardened Crew (Command Tank, 2nd Squadron)
Elites Choice 2: Commissar Leman Russ Battle Tank with Extra Armour, Battle Hardened Crew (Command Tank, 3rd Squadron)

Troops Choice 1: Leman Russ Thunderer with Extra Armor, Battle Hardened Crew (2nd Tank, 1st Squadron)
Troops Choice 2: Leman Russ Thunderer with Extra Armor, Battle Hardened Crew (3rd Tank, 1st Squadron)
Troops Choice 3: Leman Russ Battle Tank with Extra Armour, Battle Hardened Crew (2nd Tank, 2nd Squadron)
Troops Choice 4: Leman Russ Battle Tank with Extra Armour, Battle Hardened Crew (3rd Tank, 2nd Squadron)
Troops Choice 5: Leman Russ Battle Tank with Extra Armour, Battle Hardened Crew (2nd Tank, 3rd Squadron)
Troops Choice 6: Leman Russ Battle Tank with Extra Armour, Battle Hardened Crew (3rd Tank, 3rd Squadron)

That reminds me that I need to pick up some of those Tank Destroyers. Always loved the model and the rules weren't terrible, especially when they became twin-linked. I did enjoy the ABG, though I think I only managed to run a single game with it.

Oh, GW is NEVER going to miss the opportunity to sell books. Can't really blame them. I'm just never going to get over Gladius -> Lion's Blade -> Angel's Blade?

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

They did that with the index, and then made every single BA-specific unit way overcosted. Because red paint, I guess.

What I'm saying is that when the marine codex came out, it should have also had BA in it, not have BA in a completely different book that you have to wait for.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Spoiler:

 Blacksails wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:I actually liked 5th too! My army was ridiculously bad (as tanks couldn't score, even as troops) but it was still really very fun.

I feel like the 5th Edition Armoured Company list hit that fluffy sweet-spot, even if it never won a game. I loved it and miss it dearly.

I played 7 Russes and 5 Chimeras in 5th when I wasn't powerblobbing. I knew squadrons were awful stuff, but it was a riot when you get all the executioners in range to drop 9 small plasma plates on someone.

I played the Armoured Battlegroup list, and it was a time when the tanks could still do fluffy things but were cheaper than the 4e Armoured Company iteration, meaning you could run a full company of 10 rather than like 5-7.

I still remember my list because it was the same Every Game!

HQ 1: Vanquisher with Co-Axial Stubber and Lascannon, Battle-Hardened Crew (the 4+ save against Crew Shaken), Extra Armour (the Company Command tank)
HQ 2: Leman Russ Vanquisher with Co-Axial Stubber and Lascannon, Battle-Hardened Crew, Extra Armour (the Company XO and command tank of 1st Squadron)

Elites Choice 1: Commissar Leman Russ Battle Tank with Extra Armour, Battle Hardened Crew (Command Tank, 2nd Squadron)
Elites Choice 2: Commissar Leman Russ Battle Tank with Extra Armour, Battle Hardened Crew (Command Tank, 3rd Squadron)

Troops Choice 1: Leman Russ Thunderer with Extra Armor, Battle Hardened Crew (2nd Tank, 1st Squadron)
Troops Choice 2: Leman Russ Thunderer with Extra Armor, Battle Hardened Crew (3rd Tank, 1st Squadron)
Troops Choice 3: Leman Russ Battle Tank with Extra Armour, Battle Hardened Crew (2nd Tank, 2nd Squadron)
Troops Choice 4: Leman Russ Battle Tank with Extra Armour, Battle Hardened Crew (3rd Tank, 2nd Squadron)
Troops Choice 5: Leman Russ Battle Tank with Extra Armour, Battle Hardened Crew (2nd Tank, 3rd Squadron)
Troops Choice 6: Leman Russ Battle Tank with Extra Armour, Battle Hardened Crew (3rd Tank, 3rd Squadron)

That reminds me that I need to pick up some of those Tank Destroyers. Always loved the model and the rules weren't terrible, especially when they became twin-linked. I did enjoy the ABG, though I think I only managed to run a single game with it.

Yeah.
Surprisingly, 5th Edition is where I got my first games with the Baneblade Company after the Battle Missions book came out - there was less hostility towards superheavies back then, I guess. Not really sure.

My best memory though is my 5-7 tank list in 4e that had one of those metal demolishers that looked chubby - blew up a Monolith on Turn 1 with that sweet sweet "Vehicle Annihilated" result on the Ordnance Damage table. The Necron player was shocked - he had considered the Monolith's immunity to melta/etc as making it essentially immortal early-game. It had not occured to him that Str. 10 Ordnance could exist, plus the Ordnance Damage Table that killed on a 4+.

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, GW is NEVER going to miss the opportunity to sell books. Can't really blame them. I'm just never going to get over Gladius -> Lion's Blade -> Angel's Blade?

You haven't learned your lesson yet. Red marines eat glue in the corner. Blue Marines ride the party bus with the cool kids in the back.

When you put it that way, it all becomes clear.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Yeah.
Surprisingly, 5th Edition is where I got my first games with the Baneblade Company after the Battle Missions book came out - there was less hostility towards superheavies back then, I guess. Not really sure.

My best memory though is my 5-7 tank list in 4e that had one of those metal demolishers that looked chubby - blew up a Monolith on Turn 1 with that sweet sweet "Vehicle Annihilated" result on the Ordnance Damage table. The Necron player was shocked - he had considered the Monolith's immunity to melta/etc as making it essentially immortal early-game. It had not occured to him that Str. 10 Ordnance could exist, plus the Ordnance Damage Table that killed on a 4+.

Half the reason I brought my Demolishers. S10 large blast ordnance was pretty useful against A LOT of stuff. That was also back when bikes added +1T, so to double out multiwound bikers (coughnobscough), you needed that sweet sweet S10.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Yeah.
Surprisingly, 5th Edition is where I got my first games with the Baneblade Company after the Battle Missions book came out - there was less hostility towards superheavies back then, I guess. Not really sure.

My best memory though is my 5-7 tank list in 4e that had one of those metal demolishers that looked chubby - blew up a Monolith on Turn 1 with that sweet sweet "Vehicle Annihilated" result on the Ordnance Damage table. The Necron player was shocked - he had considered the Monolith's immunity to melta/etc as making it essentially immortal early-game. It had not occured to him that Str. 10 Ordnance could exist, plus the Ordnance Damage Table that killed on a 4+.

Half the reason I brought my Demolishers. S10 large blast ordnance was pretty useful against A LOT of stuff. That was also back when bikes added +1T, so to double out multiwound bikers (coughnobscough), you needed that sweet sweet S10.

Yeah, I changed over to Thunderers when the 5e List dropped because it was a FW list and they were in it - before that, it was a GW list and they weren't.

Martel732 wrote:
When you put it that way, it all becomes clear.

I have a way with words.

You should hear me sing. People have described me as the songbird of my generation. Like Fergie and Jesus mixed together.

Tyran wrote:
Only if they cost 3 pts each and have a 5+ armor. Oh and get orders that basically duplicate their firepower and a few other tricks.

So yeah no.

They cost the same as guards, and go to 5+ armor when they take the right hive adaption for 0 points. Did I mention that they'll regenerate their causalities and are backed by genestealers?

It's ok, though because a 4ppm, 5+ armor save model doesn't survive crap shooting wise. I find it interesting that everyone who swears that the commissar nerf needs to be kept focuses on conscripts point cost and statline, neither of which were affected by the nerf. Worse, they are the only viable unit to take with commissars. This means the nerf you are defending is more likely to increase the number of conscript lists, not lessen them.

Termagants cost 4 pts, you may have a point if they costed 3ppm, but sadly they don't.

Tyran wrote:
Termagants cost 4 pts, you may have a point if they costed 3ppm, but sadly they don't.

Aren't Termagants BS and WS 4+, like 4ppm Guardsmen, rather than 5+ for both like 3ppm Conscripts?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Tyran wrote:
Termagants cost 4 pts, you may have a point if they costed 3ppm, but sadly they don't.

Aren't Termagants BS and WS 4+, like 4ppm Guardsmen, rather than 5+ for both like 3ppm Conscripts?

Yep.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of termagant buff in the codex. Did you see what happened when they tried to take on equal points of tacticals?

They went in with equal points, the tacticals walked away with a 5:1 points advantage. Of course I'm sure some people here would react "those tacticals took two casualties! Termagants OP! Tacs worst unit ever!"

Martel732 wrote:
I found the Orks MUCH harder to beat than space marines. You have to rank them higher. They were horrifying. DE also worked better in 5th with dark lance spam. Also, I'd rank dual lash princes build above anything SM could field, even Vulkan.

Hrm, event results from 5E do not bear this out. Lash was silly, but it was a single build and it never did well beyond the first year of 5E (it was better in the last year or so of 4th) once the gimmick was well known (and everything began riding in transports making Lash much harder to use). Orks never showed as well as SM's did at competitive events consistently. They werent awful in 5E, but never showed themselves to be as strong as SM's were outside of nob biker lists playing gimmicks with wound allocation (which were pretty busted) and a heavy reliance on Loota spam. DE were excellent *against* Marines of all flavors, they were great against elite armies, but were absolutely hardcounter curbstomped by Tau, IG, and Orks, drawing a non MEQ opponent in a tournament with DE was almost an auto-exclude from placement unless it was Tyranids.

Either way, Marines were far from anything that could be called below average. The SM codex was primarily eclipsed by...other marine codexes.

Interesting, as I had little knowledge of events for that edition.

Basically every battle I had against vanilla marines was me getting across the board with impunity and stabbing them all to death because their firepower was pitiful. Orks stabbed back HARD. I can't imagine a good Ork player losing to vanilla in 5th, but I guess it clearly happened.

 ross-128 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of termagant buff in the codex. Did you see what happened when they tried to take on equal points of tacticals?

They went in with equal points, the tacticals walked away with a 5:1 points advantage. Of course I'm sure some people here would react "those tacticals took two casualties! Termagants OP! Tacs worst unit ever!"

I think that the buff to Termagants will also be a buff to Warriors in that we'll see a two-tiered points cost for Devourers.

Devourers for BS4+ at 0 points, Devourers for BS3 models at 4 points.

I doubt they'll make it 0 points, since that would completely invalidate any 'gant weapon that isn't a devourer.

They might make it 2 points and drop the 'gant's cost to 3 though, so a devourer 'gant is 5 and a spike rifle 'gant is 3.

 ross-128 wrote:
I doubt they'll make it 0 points, since that would completely invalidate any 'gant weapon that isn't a devourer.

They might make it 2 points and drop the 'gant's cost to 3 though, so a devourer 'gant is 5 and a spike rifle 'gant is 3.

Remember that the base Termagant has a Fleshborer, swappable to Spike Rifle or Spinefists or Devourers.

I think that the best option is either:
A) Devourers just go to 0 points for BS4+, lowering the points costs of Warriors from 24pts to 20 pts and Termagants from 8pts to 4pts.
B) Warriors get bumped to BS3+ and Devourers become 1-2 pts for BS4+ and 4 pts for BS3+.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
I doubt they'll make it 0 points, since that would completely invalidate any 'gant weapon that isn't a devourer.

They might make it 2 points and drop the 'gant's cost to 3 though, so a devourer 'gant is 5 and a spike rifle 'gant is 3.

Remember that the base Termagant has a Fleshborer, swappable to Spike Rifle or Spinefists or Devourers.

I think that the best option is either:
A) Devourers just go to 0 points for BS4+, lowering the points costs of Warriors from 24pts to 20 pts and Termagants from 8pts to 4pts.
B) Warriors get bumped to BS3+ and Devourers become 1-2 pts for BS4+ and 4 pts for BS3+.

A fleshborer is strictly worse than a devourer in every way though, which is why it's 0 points and a devourer is 4 points. If the devourer was also 0 there would be no reason to take anything else.

So at a minimum a devourer has to cost at least 1-2 points more than a fleshborer, and we currently don't have anything that costs negative points.

 Blacksails wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Well now Tyranids are Immune, this time with no losses possible from moral from what the preview said.

No?

They increased synapse range from 6"-12" IIRC (thats the fearless bit)
while Instinctive Behavior (the rule that penalizes you in addition to normal morale applying when out of synapse) was increased to 24".

Yes?

The rule does say;

Synapse

"<Hive Fleet> units automatically pass morale tests if they are within 12" of any friendly <Hive Fleet> units with this ability"

Found here.

So they're immune if they're within 12" of a synapse unit.

The current rule is the same, it's just 6" range instead of 12".

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Tyran wrote:
Termagants cost 4 pts, you may have a point if they costed 3ppm, but sadly they don't.

Aren't Termagants BS and WS 4+, like 4ppm Guardsmen, rather than 5+ for both like 3ppm Conscripts?

And the conscripts have a better weapon. Compared in vacuum the conscripts are far better than termagants with the cheaper cost and better weapon and better armor.

the_scotsman wrote:

The current rule is the same, it's just 6" range instead of 12".

Right, a straight buff. Plus IB is better now for the gribblies.

Either way, they're immune to morale within Synapse which is easier to manage.

All good stuff for the bugs.

Tyran wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Tyran wrote:
Termagants cost 4 pts, you may have a point if they costed 3ppm, but sadly they don't.

Aren't Termagants BS and WS 4+, like 4ppm Guardsmen, rather than 5+ for both like 3ppm Conscripts?

And the conscripts have a better weapon. Compared in vacuum the conscripts are far better than termagants with the cheaper cost and better weapon and better armor.

I wouldn't say that a 24" S3 AP0 D1 Rapid Fire 1 weapon is objectively better than a 12" S4 AP0 D1 Assault 1 weapon. Especially not when you take into consideration that the Fleshborer is on a platform that gets to reroll Wound rolls of 1 when you have 20 or more models in the unit and that the unit can have mixed weapon profiles within the unit.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I wouldn't say that a 24" S3 AP0 D1 Rapid Fire 1 weapon is objectively better than a 12" S4 AP0 D1 Assault 1 weapon. Especially not when you take into consideration that the Fleshborer is on a platform that gets to reroll Wound rolls of 1 when you have 20 or more models in the unit and that the unit can have mixed weapon profiles within the unit.

I think it is better when considering the Conscripts will be Rapid fire 2 half the time. Although the 4+ for orders nerf does make them less powerful for sure.