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 malamis wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:

Base LRBT costs 152pts (battle cannon + HB); for that you're killing ~2 MEQ a turn + the heavy bolter (~.5). Punisher LRBT is 3.3 + HB. So yes, you can get ObSec on Russes now and each one is a T8 12W Sv3+ brick, but they're still not decimating armies with each individual tank.

Whereas a Cadian executioner commander at 225 with plasma sponsons is doing closer to 4.7 primaris a turn given double tap for 10 overcharged plasma shots (2d6 + 2d3 ) with reroll 1s, not counting the heavy bolter. More often than not, it's wiping full primaris squads per turn in this situation.

But, then you are spending 225 points in order to kill 100 points of Interessors. Chances are a marine player would be "reasonably" happy with that trade - though, you could argue that if you're targeting the marines with that weapon the game is probably already won for the Guard.

 malamis wrote:
2 of them under Old Grudges and "Pound Them To Dust" on each other ( assuming 7 shots avg from the 2d6 with reroll ) on a Shadowsword could quite feasibly put it out of commission in one turn with just plasma, not even needing the +1 to hit strat. It's not the literal meaning decimation, but killing 540 pts with 450 pts in one turn is perhaps 'hanging, drawing and quartering' .

Basic Russes are as you've described. (Cadian) Tank commanders are a whole new breed of hell.

Alternatively you could take 2 squads of Lascannon devs, a basic captain and a basic lieutenant for 464 points. These will do 25 wounds on average to a shadowsword (20 if you assume the "take cover" stratagem is used). This goes up to 29.9 and 23.9 wounds using the cherub to make 2 additional shots. You can also add in the Storm of Fire warlord trait for the odd -4 rend shots on a 6. Salamanders chapter tactics also bumps up the damage resulting in 35 wounds on average without the cherub shots and assuming the 2+ save (though i'd prob take Raven Guard cos guard hitting back on a 5+ will be super strong).

If those 2 teams survive the return fire, then they can go on to kill 2 Russes a turn (3 if you split fire and are Salamanders)

 malamis wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:

Even your SWT example - you need at least 2 Vanguard detachments to field nearly that many SWT without going Brigade/Battalion (nets you 72 guys with 36 plasma guns).

Why would that be a bad thing? It's not like the company commanders aren't going to be useful.

But htis won't ever be a thing. You'd need 2 vanguard detachments and then a 3 super heavy detachment in order to get the doctines on the SHVs. And even then, the commanders wont be able to issue orders while everything is inside the stormlords (stratagem only works in chimeras). Sure, 3 stormlords will put of a fair amount of pain, but with the speed you can take out a lot of SHVs now, i'd be surprised if they were all alive by the time you get into position with everything. Just spreading everything out or hiding in rhinos/razorbacks outside of plasma range will see pretty much everything survive first turn. (mega bolter only doing 6 wounds to a rhino a turn)

 feral_80 wrote:

I do not even consider the debates about point-cost efficiency ratio, because I do not play Mathhammer and every good player knows that performance on the field depends on *many* other factors that cannot be taken into account this way.

There is one problem with this position in regards to IG:

A lot of their shooting specifically, and new abilities in general, ignore those factors.

Cover? 1s still fail against 2^n saves, or I can just AP 2+ you into oblivion
LOS? haha, 9 Manticores. aka 18d6 of s10 anywhere I want with a buffet cart of buffs to choose from. Hell have each triplet in a different regimental detachment to make sure you have enough for each augmented situation.
Turn 1 Charge? All the conscripts. Or I can just run you over, shoot you, and run you over again with a SHT for 1cp.
Deep Strike? I'll take 35 pt scout sentinels and give you cause to struggle placing models in your own deployment area
Super High Toughness? Again, Manticores.
Running for objectives? My tanks can move 20" in one turn. In some cases with ObSec

I don't mean to be facetious here, but what's left?

Whats bugging me, and probably a great many more people, is that playing IG really *could* come down to just the mathhammer. with SHTs we can even get drop advantage and still pack enough turn 1 fire to render your army inert.

Now regarding your mention of the conscript grenade thing someone was good enough to prove me wrong already, should have read harder :|


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kdash wrote:

 malamis wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:

Base LRBT costs 152pts (battle cannon + HB); for that you're killing ~2 MEQ a turn + the heavy bolter (~.5). Punisher LRBT is 3.3 + HB. So yes, you can get ObSec on Russes now and each one is a T8 12W Sv3+ brick, but they're still not decimating armies with each individual tank.

Whereas a Cadian executioner commander at 225 with plasma sponsons is doing closer to 4.7 primaris a turn given double tap for 10 overcharged plasma shots (2d6 + 2d3 ) with reroll 1s, not counting the heavy bolter. More often than not, it's wiping full primaris squads per turn in this situation.

But, then you are spending 225 points in order to kill 100 points of Interessors. Chances are a marine player would be "reasonably" happy with that trade - though, you could argue that if you're targeting the marines with that weapon the game is probably already won for the Guard.

I think you'll find i'd be targetting the considerably more expensive Hellblasters from outside of their range seeing as they're the only element in the army that can do consistent damage to my armour.

GhostRecon wrote:

 malamis wrote:
2 of them under Old Grudges and "Pound Them To Dust" on each other ( assuming 7 shots avg from the 2d6 with reroll ) on a Shadowsword could quite feasibly put it out of commission in one turn with just plasma, not even needing the +1 to hit strat. It's not the literal meaning decimation, but killing 540 pts with 450 pts in one turn is perhaps 'hanging, drawing and quartering' .

Basic Russes are as you've described. (Cadian) Tank commanders are a whole new breed of hell.

Alternatively you could take 2 squads of Lascannon devs, a basic captain and a basic lieutenant for 464 points. These will do 25 wounds on average to a shadowsword (20 if you assume the "take cover" stratagem is used). This goes up to 29.9 and 23.9 wounds using the cherub to make 2 additional shots. You can also add in the Storm of Fire warlord trait for the odd -4 rend shots on a 6. Salamanders chapter tactics also bumps up the damage resulting in 35 wounds on average without the cherub shots and assuming the 2+ save (though i'd prob take Raven Guard cos guard hitting back on a 5+ will be super strong).

Now this is valid; add in an ADL and you have a genuine anti-tank threat. I'm totally going to steal it.
There is however the factor that your IG opponent would see where you're establishing this bunker, as your 4 drops mean they'd have time to counter deploy the smaller number of tanks whilst you're building it, and probably going 2nd as a consequence.

GhostRecon wrote:

But htis won't ever be a thing. You'd need 2 vanguard detachments and then a 3 super heavy detachment in order to get the doctines on the SHVs.

I'm going to add this to my signature for a while:

The Supreme Command Detachment Allows You To Take Lords Of War With 90pts Worth of Imperial Guard HQs And Benefit From Regiment Bonuses

GhostRecon wrote:

And even then, the commanders wont be able to issue orders while everything is inside the stormlords (stratagem only works in chimeras). Sure, 3 stormlords will put of a fair amount of pain, but with the speed you can take out a lot of SHVs now, i'd be surprised if they were all alive by the time you get into position with everything. Just spreading everything out or hiding in rhinos/razorbacks outside of plasma range will see pretty much everything survive first turn. (mega bolter only doing 6 wounds to a rhino a turn)

However the 2 stormlords means I have 2 drops and thus will go first unless you seize, which is the only reason I brought them up. I will then redeploy as I see fit to concentrate my plasma, and perhaps position my stormlords to provide LOS blocking to your main anti infantry items. You get 1 turn of shooting, at the targets I decide to give you, using the units I decide to leave you with, after which my stationary buffs set your army list on fire

This is pure theory. You cannot expect to face all or even some of these situations in every game. Are you sure any IG player will want to field 9 Manticores (= 1200 pts), i.e. severely limiting the mobility of over half his army, in an objectives game?

How can you assume that I can drown you in 2^n no AP saves always and anywhere, when lasguns are 24" range and obviously 90 conscripts will never be able to shoot all at the same target (and even if they do, don't expect miracles) on a real battlefield?

Sentinels are 35 pts plus weapons, and anybody except Tallarn goes with h.flamer because it's the only really useful weapon, thus their real cost is 52 pts per model. They are still great, but also fragile. Destroy them on turn 1 and delay your deepstrike to turn 2, which may not be that bad an idea anyway in many games...

Tanks moving 20" in a turn? Sure you realize that is not an optimal use for LR, but rather a desperation move. And as for ObSec: it's a joke on tanks. First, it requires a Vangaurd detachment (and don't think it's so easy or obvious to field one, if you also want to have *other*, more useful advantages for your army). Second, a Leman Russ is 1 model, it will still lose vs any other Troop with ObSec and 2+ models...not that big deal really. It's more a boon to encourage people to try Tank companies, but alone they will still struggle to achieve much.

Etc. etc. I repeat: by playing with and against AM you'll realize that Mathhammer does not explain everything, and that AM's many and often exciting options come at a tactical price that is also one of her weak points.

It's not pure theory when it's been done. Guard armies focused on tabling with massive no-LOS firepower have been winning tournaments since the stormraven nerf.

 malamis wrote:

 feral_80 wrote:

I do not even consider the debates about point-cost efficiency ratio, because I do not play Mathhammer and every good player knows that performance on the field depends on *many* other factors that cannot be taken into account this way.

There is one problem with this position in regards to IG:

A lot of their shooting specifically, and new abilities in general, ignore those factors.

Cover? 1s still fail against 2^n saves, or I can just AP 2+ you into oblivion
LOS? haha, 9 Manticores. aka 18d6 of s10 anywhere I want with a buffet cart of buffs to choose from. Hell have each one in a different regimental detachment to make sure you have enough for each augmented situation.
Turn 1 Charge? All the conscripts. Or I can just run you over, shoot you, and run you over again with a SHT for 1cp.
Deep Strike? I'll take 35 pt scout sentinels and give you cause to struggle placing models in your own deployment area
Super High Toughness? Again, Manticores.
Running for objectives? My tanks can move 20" in one turn. In some cases with ObSec

I don't mean to be facetious here, but what's left?

Whats bugging me, and probably a great many more people, is that playing IG really *could* come down to just the mathhammer. with SHTs we can even get drop advantage and still pack enough turn 1 fire to render your army inert.

Now regarding your mention of the conscript grenade thing someone was good enough to prove me wrong already, should have read harder :|

9 Manticores?? Taking the "Why?!?" out of the picture to start with... 1 manticore will kill 2 marines a turn - so all 9 will kill 18 a turn if they are all outside of transports and cover and not Raven Guard. If they are Raven Guard and in cover you only kill 1 per Manticore, so 9 a turn... You only have 4 turns of shooting for a cost of 1202 (presuming you have Harker to re-roll ones). Maybe i need to play against 9 of them, but, i'm personally not seeing it as broken... Cheesy if you aren't expecting it, but not broken as there are options to avoid it. (this isn't taking into account the catachan doctrine)

In regards to deep-striking, conscripts and sentinels - you'll prob see a lot more turn 2 and turn 3 deep-strikes now vs Guard. Sentinels can be useful and annoying, but will die before the deep-strikes happen. As for conscripts, as soon as i kill 10-15 of them on the first turn, i'd have no real issues with deep-striking after to kill them or just waiting another turn when they are dead (thats if i don't take enough to kill 30 t3 guys a turn).

If manticores are targeting the transports or high toughness, they aren't targeting something else. They are good, but they aren't killing transports in a single turn on their own reliably.

Sure, Russes can now move and obsec objectives up to 20" away, but what if there is an obsec squad already on the objective? Also, the chances of them having full movement late game for objective securing are very slim unless you spend 10 points on track guards. If you are chasing objectives early game with them, then hey aren't removing threats and therefore not winning you the game.


Special weapon teams won't be getting the drop on much 1st turn. Scions still can, but, their cost has risen a lot for plasma and can still be countered with screening them out of rapid fire range.

Right now, i think Guard are strong, but, i think people need to take a step back first and think. There are options to beat them, and there are certainly options where you get completely tabled - it's just noone wants to work them out. On that note - i'd like someone to come up with the most "OP" 2k points list they can think of containing all the broken units they can think of and fit, and then, everyone here, together, can discuss how you'd beat it in a standard matched play game.

One thing that concerns me, which i mentioned on reddit and not seen anywhere else is ogryn bodyguard spam. For 60 points you can get a 3+/2++ 6 wound model, that can pass wounds off onto another bodyguard within 3" of it if you fail the 2++ save, on a 3+. 6 of them in a battalion will be un-killable. 12 of them in 2 battalions will be ridiculous to deal with. If you can put of mortal wounds on mass they will just claim whatever ground they want. Add in a couple of priests for extra attacks and you're laughing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 malamis wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:

But htis won't ever be a thing. You'd need 2 vanguard detachments and then a 3 super heavy detachment in order to get the doctines on the SHVs.

I'm going to add this to my signature for a while:

The Supreme Command Detachment Allows You To Take Lords Of War With 90pts Worth of Imperial Guard HQs And Benefit From Regiment Bonuses

But if you have 2 vanguard detachments you cannot take 2 supreme command detachments in a 2k list, as you can only have 3 detachments in matched play. Because of that, you'd need to take 3 SHVs in a super heavy detachment in order to be match play legal and get the benefits.

If you want 2 supreme command detachments you will only get 8 Special weapon teams and then only 24 plasma guns across 48 models. On top of that you could get another 12 plasma pistols if you go all out on commanders. That's not exactly a force in itself to worry about for 1684 points (more if you add weapons to the Stormlords). I'd be totally happy going up against that as i'd know i'd build a list to cripple and survive the stormlords.

As for going 2nd - if you play standard book rules you will always go 2nd, yes, but, if you are playing in a tournament you have the roll off so you still have a decent chance of going 1st.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 feral_80 wrote:
This is pure theory. You cannot expect to face all or even some of these situations in every game. Are you sure any IG player will want to field 9 Manticores (= 1200 pts), i.e. severely limiting the mobility of over half his army, in an objectives game?

How can you assume that I can drown you in 2^n no AP saves always and anywhere, when lasguns are 24" range and obviously 90 conscripts will never be able to shoot all at the same target (and even if they do, don't expect miracles) on a real battlefield?

Sentinels are 35 pts plus weapons, and anybody except Tallarn goes with h.flamer because it's the only really useful weapon, thus their real cost is 52 pts per model. They are still great, but also fragile. Destroy them on turn 1 and delay your deepstrike to turn 2, which may not be that bad an idea anyway in many games...

Tanks moving 20" in a turn? Sure you realize that is not an optimal use for LR, but rather a desperation move. And as for ObSec: it's a joke on tanks. First, it requires a Vangaurd detachment (and don't think it's so easy or obvious to field one, if you also want to have *other*, more useful advantages for your army). Second, a Leman Russ is 1 model, it will still lose vs any other Troop with ObSec and 2+ models...not that big deal really. It's more a boon to encourage people to try Tank companies, but alone they will still struggle to achieve much.

Etc. etc. I repeat: by playing with and against AM you'll realize that Mathhammer does not explain everything, and that AM's many and often exciting options come at a tactical price that is also one of her weak points.

I'd argue that multi laser sentinels are by far the better choice at 45 points each. Their job isn't to kill stuff, but to deny deep-strike on the first turn or 2. I'd rather scout them up, hold the group and get off some str 6 pot shots before expecting them to just die.

Spearhead gives LRs obsec, not vanguard, so pretty easy to fill for Guard and will prob be taken most of the time if you already have a brigade.

I agree on the conscripts thing though. 30 guys are generally used for screening so even if you charge them, chances are 1/4 to 1/3 will be outside of rapid fire for overwatch, so shooting normally you'll never get full shots off (even if you pass the 4+ for orders)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
It's not pure theory when it's been done. Guard armies focused on tabling with massive no-LOS firepower have been winning tournaments since the stormraven nerf.

It's not been winning all the tournaments though. Chaos have been taking a lot of events recently.

if Guard really are super strong it just means you'll see a bigger rise in the number of Alpha Legion/Raven Guard/Stygies lists in the future to counter all the artillery. Note that they only army so far NOT to get a -1 to hit doctrine is Guard themselves and several other armies already have options to get the -1 to hit anyway.

*EDITED for typos and a few extras*

Aye, Vanguard = Spearhead in my mind, I don't know why I keep confusing them. Anyway, the one focused on Heavy Support.

Good point about the -1 to be hit, it's a *huge* pain in the ass for the Guard and quite a frustrating form of spam. I feel quite bored to play Stygies VIII already. I really hope that Codex: AM has paved the way for more inspired design, since it is objectively much more original and well devised than the stuff we've seen so far (except possibly the wonderfully themed Death Guard). Let's see from next week - we really don't want an Eldar Craftworld with -1 hit, right?

Not *that* easy to fill a tank-based Spearhead (800-1000 pts) AND a full Brigade, really, unless you significantly limit your options in the Brigade. Thinking tactically, it's much easier to field a 2x Battalion, which is already 3 CP less.

These posts are bringing out quite clearly what is probably the greatest strength of the Guard: flexibility. The best feature of the Codex is that most of its many options are viable (which is very different from 'broken'). From the 9 Manticores (as threating as risky...) to a fully balanced army. Hell, you could even field an assault swarm composed entirely of DKK+Catahans+Ogryns+Priests, and it wouldn't even perform badly.

Thus, facing an AM army means you could face a huge variety of threats, to which it is difficult to respond and even more risky than usual to tailor a counter-army. This seems to be the real source of despair for most people, but I guess it's just a matter of learning. And since it naturally brings players to building all-comers lists ready for everything...it's a great thing to me.

 feral_80 wrote:
Aye, Vanguard = Spearhead in my mind, I don't know why I keep confusing them. Anyway, the one focused on Heavy Support.

Not *that* easy to fill a tank-based Spearhead (800-1000 pts) AND a full Brigade, really, unless you significantly limit your options in the Brigade. Thinking tactically, it's much easier to think to 2x Battalion, which is already 3 CP less.

These posts are bringing out quite clearly what is probably the
greatest strength of the Guard: flexibility. The best feature of the Codex is that most of its many options are viable (which is very different from 'broken'). From the 9 Manticores (as threating as risky...) to a fully balanced army. Hell, you could even field an assault swarm composed entirely of DKK+Catahans+Ogryns+Priests, and it wouldn't even perform bad I think.

Thus, facing an AM army means you could face a huge variety of threats, to which it is difficult to respond and even more risky than usual to tailor a counter-army. This seem to be the real source of despair for most people, but I guess it's just a matter of learning. And since it naturally brings players to building all-comers lists ready for everything...it's a great thing to me.

A basic brigade now costs 612 points i believe, while keeping doctrines. And i agree on the max tank spearhead being too expensive. I'd expect to see a tank commander and maybe 2-3 LRs to keep is cheap and able to benefit from things like the Tallarn stratagem.

 feral_80 wrote:
This is pure theory. You cannot expect to face all or even some of these situations in every game. Are you sure any IG player will want to field 9 Manticores (= 1200 pts), i.e. severely limiting the mobility of over half his army, in an objectives game?

1197, which is an extra conscript - Well A. They move faster than infantry if they really need to and B. there's still plenty of points left for 60 inches (28mm bases) of conscripts + buffs in 1.5k , possibly as a double row at the edge of deployment to prevent any deep strike mischief turn 1 and buff the whole lot of them with commisar auras.

 feral_80 wrote:

How can you assume that I can drown you in 2^n no AP saves always and anywhere, when lasguns are 24" range and obviously 90 conscripts will never be able to shoot all at the same target (and even if they do, don't expect miracles) on a real battlefield?

I wasn't specifically referring to conscripts there, but i'd suggest that, in this goofy theoretical build/army core ( 9 manticores, 54 conscripts 2 Lord Commisars and 1 commander - 1499, add in russ commanders and scout sentinels to take it to 2k ) that the weight and distribution of manticore fire is enough to render most dedicated anti-X units irrelevant and/or the ones beyond their range. Hell the conscripts might not even fire, just blanket the objectives and give you more urgent things to address than the 18d6 s10 if it's an objective card game.

Now to your point, IG now has enough orders and stratagems that, even taking LOS into account I probably *could* ensure the 54 conscripts would be all able to shoot at least up to 24", especially if using the wide wall deployment method and collapsing them into gaps in the terrain.

 feral_80 wrote:

Sentinels are 35 pts plus weapons, and anybody except Tallarn goes with h.flamer because it's the only really useful weapon, thus their real cost is 52 pts per model.

Except in this instance, (and really the only reason to take scout sentinels) i'm not after fire power; i'm after screwing your deployment and objectives. In this case 40 point multilaser sentinels are adequate, and hell maybe add a tallarn battalion detachment just for high speed conscripts and commisar(s).

 feral_80 wrote:

Tanks moving 20" in a turn? Sure you realize that is not an optimal use for LR, but rather a desperation move.

I have to ask, have you faced 'loud' guard in 8th? As in if you're not out of LOS or drowning in transports you're going to lose 1/2 of your entire army in the first turn of shooting? If i'm advancing it's because i've nothing worthwhile left to shoot at and it's turn 4. With Cadia, it's entirely possible this will upgrade to turn 3.

 feral_80 wrote:

First, it requires a Vangaurd detachment (and don't think it's so easy or obvious to field one, if you also want to have *other*, more useful advantages for your army). Second, a Leman Russ is 1 model, it will still lose vs any other Troop with ObSec and 2+ models...not that big deal really. It's more a boon to encourage people to try Tank companies, but alone they will still struggle to achieve much.

I think you mean spearhead ? (pg 132) Also, Tank Commanders are themselves Leman Russ so you can fill in the HQ with them and still take 6 manticores, or alternatively, 2 detachments for an extra CP.

Now, sure Obsec is a smidge weak in this case... against conscripts. If the TC LR is contesting, or quite possibly, body blocking - they're big enough to park over an objective at the right angle - it's entirely capable of killing or breaking a large percentage of other obsec units outright barring the aforementioned before it's relevant.

the *only* situation where an LR is at a disadvantage to other obsec units, is multi-level buildings with objectives atop them.

 feral_80 wrote:

Etc. etc. I repeat: by playing with and against AM you'll realize that Mathhammer does not explain everything, and that AM's many and often exciting options come at a tactical price that is also one of her weak points.

This remains to be proven; for now against the other Codex (as opposed to Index) armies, IG outshoots, out melee's and outlasts all of them if it is built to emphasise any one role. The ultimate concern is that it does all of them *well* on such a large variety of units, and out indirect-fire's any army by virtue of none of them even attempting the challenge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 feral_80 wrote:

Thus, facing an AM army means you could face a huge variety of threats, to which it is difficult to respond and even more risky than usual to tailor a counter-army. This seems to be the real source of despair for most people, but I guess it's just a matter of learning. And since it naturally brings players to building all-comers lists ready for everything...it's a great thing to me.

You've nailed the entire thread with just this statement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kdash wrote:

9 Manticores?? Taking the "Why?!?" out of the picture to start with... 1 manticore will kill 2 marines a turn - so all 9 will kill 18 a turn if they are all outside of transports and cover and not Raven Guard. If they are Raven Guard and in cover you only kill 1 per Manticore, so 9 a turn... You only have 4 turns of shooting for a cost of 1202 (presuming you have Harker to re-roll ones). Maybe i need to play against 9 of them, but, i'm personally not seeing it as broken... Cheesy if you aren't expecting it, but not broken as there are options to avoid it. (this isn't taking into account the catachan doctrine)

Except I strongly doubt manticores will ever *be* catachan. Cadians reroll 1s *anyway* and with the strat of +1 to hit a wounded model, if unit X is to be deleted, unit X is going to be deleted

Kdash wrote:

If manticores are targeting the transports or high toughness, they aren't targeting something else. They are good, but they aren't killing transports in a single turn on their own reliably.

Now this is quite true, and is why i'm only fielding 6 of them with the SupCom SHTs presently.

Kdash wrote:

Sure, Russes can now move and obsec objectives up to 20" away, but what if there is an obsec squad already on the objective? Also, the chances of them having full movement late game for objective securing are very slim unless you spend 10 points on track guards. If you are chasing objectives early game with them, then hey aren't removing threats and therefore not winning you the game.

I had forgotten about track guards!
For 10 points, I can safely cash in my cadian stationary bonus and shoot for 3 turns until I need to move to cap objectives, knowing i'll get there. Yeah I think i'll have some of that thank you.

Kdash wrote:

One thing that concerns me, which i mentioned on reddit and not seen anywhere else is ogryn bodyguard spam. For 60 points you can get a 3+/2++ 6 wound model, that can pass wounds off onto another bodyguard within 3" of it if you fail the 2++ save, on a 3+. 6 of them in a battalion will be un-killable. 12 of them in 2 battalions will be ridiculous to deal with. If you can put of mortal wounds on mass they will just claim whatever ground they want. Add in a couple of priests for extra attacks and you're laughing.

I think you've got your numbers wrong; they can have a 2+/4++ as the +2 save is mutually exclusive with the invul.

The concept is sound though; add in adequate medic command squads teams with, perhaps, lascannons and you'd be punched right out of the venue

Kdash wrote:


But if you have 2 vanguard detachments you cannot take 2 supreme command detachments in a 2k list, as you can only have 3 detachments in matched play. Because of that, you'd need to take 3 SHVs in a super heavy detachment in order to be match play legal and get the benefits.

That I had missed, thanks for pointing it out.

GhostRecon wrote:

As for going 2nd - if you play standard book rules you will always go 2nd, yes, but, if you are playing in a tournament you have the roll off so you still have a decent chance of going 1st.

Depends a lot on the tournament surely? Still valid though.

Thus, facing an AM army means you could face a huge variety of threats, to which it is difficult to respond and even more risky than usual to tailor a counter-army. This seems to be the real source of despair for most people, but I guess it's just a matter of learning. And since it naturally brings players to building all-comers lists ready for everything...it's a great thing to me.

I thought list tailoring against your opponent was considered a dick move? I design my lists mostly from a tac point of view even if I know my opponent is going to play a specific setup.

 argonak wrote:

I thought list tailoring against your opponent was considered a dick move? I design my lists mostly from a tac point of view even if I know my opponent is going to play a specific setup.

It's more taking into account the dramatic shift in what 'all comers' means now that 'standard expectation' breaking builds are going to crop up a lot more often. I know I broke my local meta for quite a while back when the super heavy company was introduced.

 argonak wrote:

Thus, facing an AM army means you could face a huge variety of threats, to which it is difficult to respond and even more risky than usual to tailor a counter-army. This seems to be the real source of despair for most people, but I guess it's just a matter of learning. And since it naturally brings players to building all-comers lists ready for everything...it's a great thing to me.

I thought list tailoring against your opponent was considered a dick move? I design my lists mostly from a tac point of view even if I know my opponent is going to play a specific setup.

There are two different types of tailoring really. Adjusting for a local meta is fine really, I wouldn't even call it tailoring. The egregious type is changing your force once you know your opponent, or bringing multiple lists that you can pull out depending on what you face. That is creating a rather unfair advantage (unless your opponent is fine with it of course!).

When people talk about list tailoring, they usually mean "I know you're playing with a lot of Slugga Ork Boyz with exactly zero heavy armor and no tanks. So I'm gonna change out all of the plasma guns in my list that I usually take in case of heavy armor for more flamers and heavy flamers specifically to counter you".

but if the meta favours tanks (i.e: regardless of which faction you take, you're gonna be at least bringing transports for everyone), then swapping out plasma guns for melta guns (like in 5th edition) isn't unheard of (and actually encouraged).

SilverAlien wrote:
Let's list off some questions now that we have the "full picture".

Are we now allowed to wonder why the shadowsword can kill 200 points of enemy tanks every turn despite costing only 500ish itself and being quite durable? What about conscripts still being absurdly hard to kill in a single turn without spending 3-4 times as much on a glass cannon counter unit? Or should we "wait for the meta to settle"

Please, could some guard players explain to me how a sturdy tank that's very hard to kill should have the firepower to easily make its points back, yet we need glass cannon units to have that same sort of point efficiency versus conscripts, I'm curious.

The shadowsword costs 404 pts. Why would you ever put sponsons on it? It is insanely underpriced and can do up to 108 damage with its main gun alone each turn. It will kill your biggest unit each turn especially since it can now move and shoot with no penalty.

I have no idea why people keep talking about the 500pt shadowsword is able to kill a 200pt tank per turn. First as I have stated it is 400pts. Second the only reason it is only killing a 200pt tank is because that was obviously the most expensive tank they had. It would kill the 300-500 point tank, knight, or other super heavy if they had it. Then since it is easy to make it -1 to hit and give it +2 to its save you are likely never going to kill the thing unless you have a Shadowsword. Each turn this will erase you most expensive big unit.

 malamis wrote:
If you haven't played against massed manticores, i'd imagine it wouldn't be

You're right - I haven't played against them, nor do I use them myself.

 malamis wrote:

You can have an army consisting entirely of them without paying a tax of any kind. Something of a big deal

Really? How does that work?

 malamis wrote:

While they were priced in line with their utility in a vacuum, they didn't get priced taking the access to the new buffs into account I think.

Possibly, but were they really great in the index?

I know that they were (and still are) cheap. However, it was my understanding that they were mainly used to fill out HS choices for a Brigade. They might do a bit of damage, but they're hardly reliable - especially against anything tougher than basic infantry. What's more, fielding large numbers of them is impractical due to the sheer size of their footprint. Even with the doctrines and such, I don't think they'll be OP.

 malamis wrote:

On 12d6 shots all day every day for < 280 which ignores that sweet sweet LOS limitation is kind of a big deal.

12d6 is a bit disingenuous, since that would require 3 Wyverns.

Also, is this rerolling 1s or rerolling all misses? If the latter, where is that coming from? Is it a new rule for Wyverns? Because if it's just rerolling 1s, that's not very impressive on a BS4+ model (IIRC you go from 6/12 to 7/12).

Also, there's usually an upper limit to the number of models you can realistically hide behind LoS-blocking terrain.

 malamis wrote:

Which, if the target is important enough, is why it'd become 3+ with the Cadian strat

You have to hit and wound without the bonus before you can use that strategy though.

 malamis wrote:

Squeaking. British English and all

I'm British and I've literally never heard anyone say 'squeaking in'.

 malamis wrote:

Quite right; i dunno where I went wrong there. Possibly jumping ahead and adding in the officers? :\

Ah, that might explain it.

 malamis wrote:

Anyway corrected; 13 SWS for 39 plasma guns for 585 and 78 Gmen. £48 for the finecast plasma guns presently, *about* £120 for GMen depending on your standards. I've been experimenting with Oyumaru for the former and found it's better suited for meltaguns.

Even then, I'd have thought you'd want those SWSs to go in Chimeras or such. Starting them on the field seems a dubious strategy to me.

Of course, it's early days so I could be entirely wrong.

 malamis wrote:

You only got the first paragraph. The second para was for my own enjoyment

Can't argue with that, I suppose.

Also, I just reread my previous post and realise that it came across as being more hostile/aggressive than I intended. I apologise for that and I thank you for remaining polite and friendly in this post.

Scheming against meta is NOT tailoring, because there is no guarantee the meta you expect will show up exactly as you expect it. List tailoring involves definite knowns.

The Shadowsword might technically be able to do 108 damage... But there's nothing that has that many wounds, and the odds of doing 108 damage are infinitesimal.

Realistically, it deletes an average of 3 models without invulns that are 6 or less wounds, or absolutely demolishes a single vehicle or something.

broxus wrote:
The shadowsword costs 404 pts. Why would you ever put sponsons on it?

Well there are a few reasons:

1- A Shadowsword with 4 sponsons looks really good! OK, so not the best reason but it counts.
2- You get bs4 lascannons against titanic units.
3- Increased overwatch fire can help I guess.
4- Increased buff potential. Giving the Shadowsword a buff, such as the Vostroyan's +1 to hit or a Trojan's reroll to hit and you can affect a lot more guns for increased efficiency.

 vipoid wrote:

 malamis wrote:

You can have an army consisting entirely of them without paying a tax of any kind. Something of a big deal

Really? How does that work?

Supreme command detachment. They're HQs. Take 6 in 2 such detachments for two regimental doctrines and Tallarn your opponent from the side whilst Cadianing them from the front. Add in a SHT if you feel like it and that's a 2k army right there.

 vipoid wrote:

 malamis wrote:

Mortars

Possibly, but were they really great in the index?

I know that they were (and still are) cheap. However, it was my understanding that they were mainly used to fill out HS choices for a Brigade. They might do a bit of damage, but they're hardly reliable - especially against anything tougher than basic infantry. What's more, fielding large numbers of them is impractical due to the sheer size of their footprint. Even with the doctrines and such, I don't think they'll be OP.

Doctrines in particular are what make them a bit dangerous; they don't *need* buffing characters to benefit such as the Cadian case, and 30 pts a full HWT mortar team is not bad. More significantly though, it means the *screening* HWT models for the lascannon/missile launcher are still useful.

If combined with the +1 to hit cadian strategem, the mortar HWT is paying exactly its points cost on average to kill a 1 wound marine assuming 3 shots average. 200 pts of cadian mortars is a dead SM devastator squad a turn, practically anywhere on a 4x4' board.

 vipoid wrote:

 malamis wrote:

On 12d6 shots all day every day for < 280 which ignores that sweet sweet LOS limitation is kind of a big deal.

12d6 is a bit disingenuous, since that would require 3 Wyverns.

Also, is this rerolling 1s or rerolling all misses? If the latter, where is that coming from? Is it a new rule for Wyverns? Because if it's just rerolling 1s, that's not very impressive on a BS4+ model (IIRC you go from 6/12 to 7/12).

Rerolling 1s, but again the ever lovely +1 to hit cadian strat. Its still only 1 HS choice though as they come in unit choices of 3 which are then 3 independent models. There's no reason not to take them in full batteries unless you're trying to bulk out a detachment.

 vipoid wrote:

Also, there's usually an upper limit to the number of models you can realistically hide behind LoS-blocking terrain.

Behind my bastion pair when placed diagonally, it's 7 manticores/wyverns and a master of ordnance. Or all of my pre codex 2k army sans the Shadowsword and bastion occupants. Templates were the only thing preventing this from happening in 7th, it was *almost* as good then.

I'm not kidding when I say Loud Guard can wipe armies in 2 turns of shooting, because nothing can hurt them back if they really don't want it to

 vipoid wrote:

 malamis wrote:

Which, if the target is important enough, is why it'd become 3+ with the Cadian strat

You have to hit and wound without the bonus before you can use that strategy though.

Hence (plasma) Pask, who is usually enough and doesn't need it (and can now order himself to shoot better). Failing that it'll be the Manticores singly, or the Mighty MoO.

 vipoid wrote:

 malamis wrote:

Squeaking. British English and all

I'm British and I've literally never heard anyone say 'squeaking in'.

Scottish thing maybe? I know Skiting and Skooshing have caused similar issues in the past.

 vipoid wrote:

Even then, I'd have thought you'd want those SWSs to go in Chimeras or such. Starting them on the field seems a dubious strategy to me.

Of course, it's early days so I could be entirely wrong.

If going for this, and not playing in a 'first finished deploy, first turn' i'd go for the ADL. if it is first deploy first turn, then stormswords for a 2k army consisting of 3 drops, or even Gorgons.

Alternatively, I have enough Valkyries to transport all of them so it's possible to throw them straight into rapid fire range turn 1 using, say Mordian traits to eliminate keystone characters. I've been pondering the Command Squad approach for this for a while but SWS are actually more point efficient.

 vipoid wrote:

Also, I just reread my previous post and realise that it came across as being more hostile/aggressive than I intended. I apologise for that and I thank you for remaining polite and friendly in this post.

It's all good dood; the guard owe it to everyone to be the paragons of 'This Guy' given the grief we've endured for decades now that T'Empra has favored us at last. This is why i'm so concerned about the codex; with all the tasty tanks it's possible to stumble onto a community wrecking win button and not realise it.

This exact scenario happened with fantasy in my area when the Overlords came out; the entire fantasy section of the community just cashed out for something like 3 months.

After 11 years of the hobby (anniversary was Saturday!) i'm seeing the signs already - hence why i'll only play index guard against index armies and have spent almost my entire Sunday here talking Guard

Im going to play my $40 codex.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Im going to play my $40 codex.

Go for it dood, just be aware of what you're playing with; Hell on Legs for many an established community which, if you're not careful, might never recover.

*Shrugs*

 malamis wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Im going to play my $40 codex.

Go for it dood, just be aware of what you're playing with; Hell on Legs for many an established community which, if you're not careful, might never recover.

This is such an over dramatic exaggeration.

The codex is broke. The conscript nerf is pathetic. So why do I have to justify it? I didn't write the fething thing, and I'm beyond tired of this accusatory tone. Am I now not allowed to play this edition? If you don't want to play against guard, don't play against guard.

 crimsondave wrote:
The codex is broke. The conscript nerf is pathetic. So why do I have to justify it? I didn't write the fething thing, and I'm beyond tired of this accusatory tone. Am I now not allowed to play this edition? If you don't want to play against guard, don't play against guard.

That's the problem we want fixed you shouldn't be ostracized for playing guard but if its no fun to play against then your going to have no one to play with.

We all pay a fortune for the models and invest time in building and painting so when we put them on the table we want to play an actual game, not just remove them because the game was decided before it began.

Balance benefits everyone.

 Trickstick wrote:

broxus wrote:
The shadowsword costs 404 pts. Why would you ever put sponsons on it?

Well there are a few reasons:

1- A Shadowsword with 4 sponsons looks really good! OK, so not the best reason but it counts.
2- You get bs4 lascannons against titanic units.
3- Increased overwatch fire can help I guess.
4- Increased buff potential. Giving the Shadowsword a buff, such as the Vostroyan's +1 to hit or a Trojan's reroll to hit and you can affect a lot more guns for increased efficiency.

Another thing to add - if you are targeting a Knight with a Shadowsword without giving it buffs, you'll only do 18 wounds on average to it with the main weapon.Taking extra lascannons, while expensive, practically ensures you kill what you are targeting in one turn. You really don't want to be leaving the big things alive with a handful of wounds, as it means you then have to commit another round of volcano cannon fire when it could have been destroying another thing.

 malamis wrote:

MarboLives wrote:
Even if you guys are right and the book is garbage why waste your vitriol on random forum people?

Ive been a guard player for almost 10 years since I got into the hobby in 08. I only have one army. Whether they're overpowered or underpowered this week I don't have another option readily available.

What would you like me to do about your perception of their overpoweredness?

I'm somewhere past the 12kpts mark of guard ( found 3 leman russes swimming in paint stripper i'd totally forgotten about this morning ) and i'm wary of my collection becoming useless because there's no viable opponents. What I don't want to see, and what could happen if we're not careful is "oh you play guard? i'd rather play someone else if that's alright" or, as the guard player, "Oh you play <weak, index only army>? I'll have to change my list so we're not wasting our time" both of which happened a great deal at the tail end of 7th. If on the other hand Guard becomes the new Space Marines in that everyone plays them that would be wonderful (and fluffy!) but I don't see it happening

We're in the hobby to have fun after all, and there's a genuine risk IG could quickly become 'not fun', at least for the majority of cases. If you can suggest some methods for keeping it fresh without buying models that aren't interesting to me as a player with my nebulous sense of what's neat or not, that'd be most welcome.

Depends on the matchup, I'd still say DeathGuard+Some reserve points for demons+CSM is still the most capable army, to a point of being OP


"Tide of Traitors and "Walking Dead" with "Cloud of Flies", Guaranteed 1st turn charges, More mortal wounds than you'd ever need, good anty horde/heavy infantry/vehicle options

Ironically CHaos is most reliable of all the armies and for a Mathhammer fan is the most fun as you pretty much can simply watch events on the table uunfold that you have already seen on your excel sheet

 malamis wrote:

Behind my bastion pair when placed diagonally, it's 7 manticores/wyverns and a master of ordnance. Or all of my pre codex 2k army sans the Shadowsword and bastion occupants. Templates were the only thing preventing this from happening in 7th, it was *almost* as good then.

I'm not kidding when I say Loud Guard can wipe armies in 2 turns of shooting, because nothing can hurt them back if they really don't want it to

For me, playing your version of “loud Guard” I would be comfortable taking it against most lists, but, I’d have concerns vs certain lists though. For example, Space marine flyers would probably provide a massive threat to your manticores while remaining relatively “safe”. For example, a 210 point Xiphon would need the firepower of 3 cadian manticores to reliably kill it – whereas, it can then kill 1 manticore a turn on average. It’d take even more in order to kill a stormraven.

So, if you, for example, come up against 1 xiphon, 2 stormravens alongside a battalion of marines containing a few additional lascannons, a bit of plasma/grav and a handful of assault cannons, you’d be in a lot of trouble, simply because the flyers “should” be able to get into a position to draw line of site on the manticores with their movement. It’s also the kind of list that doesn’t need to worry about bubble wrap until everything in the backfield is dead and it becomes an objective grabbing game.

Of course, that list will probably struggle against other types of armies, but it then becomes all about transferring it into a TAC list once your opponent gets sick of bringing 6 manticores and watching them die Unless, of course, you're completely blocking the manticores into a corner with 2 bastions, so no LoS can be gotten at all - then you just have to hope they can't block up the buildings quickly/slap you for being a douche

hobojebus wrote:

That's the problem we want fixed you shouldn't be ostracized for playing guard but if its no fun to play against then your going to have no one to play with.

We all pay a fortune for the models and invest time in building and painting so when we put them on the table we want to play an actual game, not just remove them because the game was decided before it began.

Balance benefits everyone.

Here here. Beyond and above that, an abundance of players that no-one wants to play leads to a withered community, which starts a feedback loop that can destroy the ability to play with your expensive models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dovis wrote:



Depends on the matchup, I'd still say DeathGuard+Some reserve points for demons+CSM is still the most capable army, to a point of being OP

This is quite likely the case; i'm waiting for a number of hardcore DG players to catch up on their projects so we can put both codexii through their paces. OP vs OP is where fun times are had after all. If GW is genuinely going to go through all the factions and OP them out of all proportion to their original index then, let the good times roll.

Sadly after 11 years I'm a bit lacking in the hope department.

 malamis wrote:

This is quite likely the case; i'm waiting for a number of hardcore DG players to catch up on their projects so we can put both codexii through their paces. OP vs OP is where fun times are had after all. If GW is genuinely going to go through all the factions and OP them out of all proportion to their original index then, let the good times roll.

Sadly after 11 years I'm a bit lacking in the hope department.

This, i think, is what is causing the majority of people to be overly salty right now. It is an unfortunate by-product of the way GW are releasing things, and thus, will happen each time a new codex is released until we have them all – with one group of people being happy and the other group not.

If things “ARE” properly balanced as codex vs codex then, I do hope GW don’t do anything to drastic in the short term that then needs to be un-done in 6 months time.

But, as you said – not many people have much faith in GW’s record and idea of “play testing”.

 malamis wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

That's the problem we want fixed you shouldn't be ostracized for playing guard but if its no fun to play against then your going to have no one to play with.

We all pay a fortune for the models and invest time in building and painting so when we put them on the table we want to play an actual game, not just remove them because the game was decided before it began.

Balance benefits everyone.

Here here. Beyond and above that, an abundance of players that no-one wants to play leads to a withered community, which starts a feedback loop that can destroy the ability to play with your expensive models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dovis wrote:



Depends on the matchup, I'd still say DeathGuard+Some reserve points for demons+CSM is still the most capable army, to a point of being OP

This is quite likely the case; i'm waiting for a number of hardcore DG players to catch up on their projects so we can put both codexii through their paces. OP vs OP is where fun times are had after all. If GW is genuinely going to go through all the factions and OP them out of all proportion to their original index then, let the good times roll.

Sadly after 11 years I'm a bit lacking in the hope department.

I think this time it's a realistic expectation

Why?

Money, their market cap rose 400% once they started OPing stuff I don't see them stopping for exactly this reason