Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
3) Bump conscripts to 4ppm.

And then you'll never see conscripts because Infantry Squads are then better in every way. They shoot better, they fight better, they have better morale, they have the option of special/heavy weapons if needed. The only negative trait Infantry Squads have over Conscripts if they cost the same would be that they can't be in 20-30 man units, but with how cheap guard are, you can get those bodies easily.

If you cost Conscripts the same as Infantry Squads, there's no point in taking them, but if you can't really cost Infantry Squads up, because they're pretty balanced.

Maybe make it so Conscripts lose two/three guardsmen as a result of Summary Execution, or just ditch Summary Execution.

That's not at all true. A conscript is a guard squad you can get to 30 models. Given the way stratagems, unit buffs, the newly buffed orders, and psychic powers work, that's an enormous advantage over a 10-model squad you can spend a CP to make a 20-model squad.

It has been shown multiple times that conscripts for 4ppm are still on par with or superior to every other competing chaff option (Cultists, Gants, Grots, Kroot, etc). That's precisely because of the power and flexibility of the buffs available to them, along with (for a chaff model) a very decent basic kit/statline.

Infantry squads will not replace conscripts as long as conscripts can be 30-strong.

T3 5+ with a s3 24" gun is worth more than 4 ppm in 8th. Flamers are knee-capped and 90% of anti infantry options only wounds on 3.

I'd be reluctant to get rid of Conscripts completely; I think they have a place in the background and I think taking away people's options in their armies should be avoided where possible.

But as for the points thing, if GsC Acolytes are 5ppm/PL5, why not the same for Guardsmen? Then make Conscripts 4/PL4, and then also they're not the same price as Gretchin, while being better at EVERYTHING.

2 ideas:

1) getting rid of conscripts would be fine IFF
2) they allowed the Combined Squads or whatever stratagem to be used before the game started, so IG infantry squads could /start/ the game at 30 men, instead of having to spend 1 CP turn one to become 1 20 and 2 10 and then 1 CP turn 2 to finally become 30 (now that they've been shot back down to 20 again lol).

In my opinion, Combined Squads is not intended to give you large blocks of troops to buff. It is intended to save you kill points by merging the remaining lascannon and sergeant from one squad into another. Using it to combine squads just for getting orders would be a waste of precious command points. With all of the stratagems IG now get, using up 6+ before the battle would be a waste. Better spending them on all of the +1 saves and such that you need.

I wonder if you scaled flamer weapons similarly to the Demolisher cannon, where the larger the squad is the more shots it potentially generates.

Something like at <10 1d6, 10-20 2D6, 20< 3D6 might provide a counter to the horde armies. You could apply something like that to numerous weapons are are supposed to be anti-horde.

The problem here would be Ork/Nid armies that are already not top tier being hit badly by a change like this also.

Honestly though I kind of wish they had just removed Conscripts, I think the complaining about them is a bit missing the forest for the trees since normal Infantry are very close to being as good. They're not quite there but are close and when you factor in Commissar vulnerability may eventually become better if more ways to pick out characters becomes more common.

I played my first game against Codex-based Imperial Guard tonight. It was 3,000 points.
OH. MY. GOD.
It is, if anything, more powerful than anyone here has said.
His list was not cheese - He brought Plasma Russes, as many regular Guardsmen as he had Conscripts (60 of each), Heavy Weapons Teams with Mortars, and Scout Sentinels alongside his Manticores, the anti-tank Baneblade Variant, some Elysians, and a few other bits and bobs.
I brought just about the hardest list I could think of with Space Marines, going with a Guilliman-centric artillery line, Celestine, Dominions, and Bikes backed by a Chapter Master with a fethload of plasma.

Due to a slightly bad roll, he got first turn. (Then again, it's not a crazy bad roll, just a 1/3rd chance - Pretty common, overall.)
He then proceeded to wreck around 3/5ths of my army in a single shooting phase.

Just to be clear - Everything in my army had cover. We had enough terrain. (I couldn't completely block my tanks/artillery off from Line of Sight, mainly because that would have weakened me while not doing anything to stop his Manticores.)
The problem was that he had way more drops than me, letting him counter-deploy everything I put down, and he had enough firepower to just blow me off the board.

In one phase, he completely killed 1,324 points of models (Battlescribe makes this really easy to check, I wasn't obsessively counting mid-game), on top of damaging to one extent or another damage every vehicle in my army except for my Repressor.

Oh, and it gets worse - This is despite the fact that he *forgot to Deep Strike his Elysians*, which would have amounted to another 27 Plasma shots.


Even if I'd gotten first turn, it wouldn't nearly have been enough. I could probably have killed his Leman Russes with average dice, and killed a good number of Conscripts and Guardsmen, but I wouldn't have been able to kill enough to matter - Getting into Rapid Fire range with my bike Plasma wouldn't really have been viable until his screens were dead (Meaning until turn 2-3), same would my Fusion Pistols on the Seraphim I brought to work with Celestine. The Elysians he had sitting in reserve would have more than compensated for the loss.



So, in summary: His army was not seriously optimized, mine was close to as strong as I can get it without just changing armies, and I didn't even come close. Hell, I didn't even come close to coming close. I would have been lucky to survive turn 2, since he'd killed all of my most durable units on turn 1, leaving mostly buff characters, damaged Dreadnoughts, and random little things lying around.
I would have needed first turn, really great dice on my attacks, lucky charge rolls, AND for him to have a really suboptimal turn one. If he'd brought an actual Tournament list, I wouldn't have had a prayer.

Waaaghpower wrote:
I played my first game against Codex-based Imperial Guard tonight. It was 3,000 points.

SNIP...

But you haven't waited for the meta to settle?

There is serious balance issues with the codex and not much will change that I'm afraid. For the time being, they are the codex to beat and expect optimised lists to be tabling armies in 2 turns. New definition of leaf-blower lists.

Never thought I'd say this, but hopefully future releases will power-creep and be on par with IG to at least provide a level playing field (sorry if you've already got a codex released! Including myself, Death Guard sadly)

 NurglesR0T wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I played my first game against Codex-based Imperial Guard tonight. It was 3,000 points.

SNIP...

But you haven't waited for the meta to settle?

There is serious balance issues with the codex and not much will change that I'm afraid. For the time being, they are the codex to beat and expect optimised lists to be tabling armies in 2 turns. New definition of leaf-blower lists.

Never thought I'd say this, but hopefully future releases will power-creep and be on par with IG to at least provide a level playing field (sorry if you've already got a codex released! Including myself, Death Guard sadly)

I'd agree with your sentiment, but there's a problem that would present aside from the general issue of 'Old codices are worse off':
Guardsmen can already kill enemy armies in two turns. (Pure guard, too, no soup. In case I didn't mention that! He wasn't playing ANY soup.)
What happens when someone's army gets STRONGER?

Like, first turn advantage for guard is already massive - If I get it, it's a close game that's an uphill battle. If he gets it, it's a trounce.
So what happens when someone can bring even more firepower than Imperial Guard currently can?
The other option is either to make everyone a lot more durable - Decreasing unit cost doesn't help, because cheaper units also means more guns and more leafblowing. But currently, the only way to make stuff more durable is with strategems, psychic power buffs, and re-rolls. Which is the kind of crap that made 7th edition a complete slog to try and play through. Do you want that?
I didn't think so.

Initially, I was lamenting that my Death Korps infantry cost 5 points per model instead of 4, as they have no real advantages over guardsmen with doctrines (as their rules are ~a doctrine but they cost 1 pt more and they cannot take heavy weapons), but now I think it's pretty cool not being as broken.

In terms of conscripts being removed, i don't think that is necessary.

However, if they continue to prove to be a problem in the next month or so, then, i'd be happy to have them go back to the 0-1 unit restriction they were previously.

Stops the spam and keeps them as part of the game.

I think that the best fix for conscripts is limiting the executions to one per turn. This way the previous conscript nerf becomes a real nerf.
It reinforces the idea that they are a meat wall but are a constant issue to keep in line.

Waaaghpower wrote:
I played my first game against Codex-based Imperial Guard tonight. It was 3,000 points.
OH. MY. GOD.

So which part would you say was the problem? Clearly conscripts and guardsmen didn't really come into play here, they do virtually no damage at 24" with their flashlights - was it the superheavy, the Manticores, the Leman Russes? Which regiment did he play?

 Trickstick wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Scrap conscripts. Ditch them. I'm totally seriously.

Seems like a good way to make a fluffy Cadian 8th collector cry. Conscripts are an intrinsic part of the IG lore, as many regiments use hordes of cheap, poorly trained troops to throw into the meat grinder. Just because their current balance is off is no reason to go to extreme measures. They were fine before 8th hit and now they should just be scrapped after a few months? I think a tweak to summary execution could go a long way to help. Maybe, instead of a blanket "only 1 casualty" it could work like a save? Say, for most squads you get a 2+ save against moral casualties but for conscripts it is a 4+ due to them needing more persuading?

True, but Cadian Kasrkin used to be a thing as well, and they were still ditched. And again, look at all the rules you need to have in order to make conscripts fair. Final answer, I say get rid of them. And get rid of summary execution as well. Aura of discipline only. This would help address the wall of unbreakable bubble wraps.

Warhammer 40k power creep mode: on

I'd kill to use a psychic power more than once per turn... Oh what's that you can do the same order multiple times per turn? I can't even cast hammerhand or sanctuary more than once per.

 Quickjager wrote:
I'd kill to use a psychic power more than once per turn... Oh what's that you can do the same order multiple times per turn? I can't even cast hammerhand or sanctuary more than once per.

The ways of the warp-spawned mutant amount to nothing when compared with the strength of the human spirit.

 Quickjager wrote:
I'd kill to use a psychic power more than once per turn... Oh what's that you can do the same order multiple times per turn? I can't even cast hammerhand or sanctuary more than once per.

"Sorry, sir, I can't order my men to Fire on my Target. Sergeant Baggs already gave that order to his men and I don't want to look like a copycat now, do I? I mean, I wanted to issue my order first, but he called dibs. Normally, I'd go with Bring it Down instead, but Captain Perkins beat me to it by a hair."

 Quickjager wrote:
I'd kill to use a psychic power more than once per turn... Oh what's that you can do the same order multiple times per turn? I can't even cast hammerhand or sanctuary more than once per.

You can also fire the same weapons more than once per turn, and you can also use multiple of the same buffing unit to buff up different parts of your army.

It's almost like rules don't always have to have the same restrictions on them?

Ushtarador wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I played my first game against Codex-based Imperial Guard tonight. It was 3,000 points.
OH. MY. GOD.

So which part would you say was the problem? Clearly conscripts and guardsmen didn't really come into play here, they do virtually no damage at 24" with their flashlights - was it the superheavy, the Manticores, the Leman Russes? Which regiment did he play?

The entire codex simply suffers from being to cheap.
Most stuff should cost more points.

The usual conscripts/mortars/Taurox/ect are just the worst offenders.

Yeah doubling leman russes fire was enough but to then lowering their cost was too far then they put regimental rules on top.

Pretty sure this proves the claims about play testing to be false.

Miscosted units ruin everything. Every time. For all the moaning about formations, only formations that gave free units or were made up of already miscosted units mattered.

On behalf of all the Eldar players from 6th and 7th edition, please allow me to welcome you all to the club of "never able to find opponents to play against" and "constantly apologizing for units you don't even play"..........I would offer you a tissue for your tears, but we already used up all we had..........

 DJ Illuminati wrote:
On behalf of all the Eldar players from 6th and 7th edition, please allow me to welcome you all to the club of "never able to find opponents to play against" and "constantly apologizing for units you don't even play"..........I would offer you a tissue for your tears, but we already used up all we had..........

Bah, the Guard have been here before in 5th. I personally didn't find leafblower too bad but it still caused difficulties. Everything is cyclical.

The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.

I am enjoying that the arguments I'm seeing are "just because guard is broken compared to the first five codices doesn't mean it's actually OP! Wait for the rest" or "just because guard has a ton of undercosted units doesn't actually make them good! Wait for the meta to settle!"

Hilarious. Always some excuse hardcore defenders give for their cheese fest.

Ushtarador wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I played my first game against Codex-based Imperial Guard tonight. It was 3,000 points.
OH. MY. GOD.

So which part would you say was the problem? Clearly conscripts and guardsmen didn't really come into play here, they do virtually no damage at 24" with their flashlights - was it the superheavy, the Manticores, the Leman Russes? Which regiment did he play?

Guardsmen with just lasguns using FRFSRF are probably the most cost effective way to kill light infantry in the game. I'm not joking, they kick the crap out of flamers. They are just so cheap, 110 points for 40-80 str 3 shots at 4+ is an absolute steal.

 2017/10/11 17:05:33     Subject: Now that the imperial guard codex is out...

I am enjoying that the arguments I'm seeing are "just because guard is broken compared to the first five codices doesn't mean it's actually OP! Wait for the rest" or "just because guard has a ton of undercosted units doesn't actually make them good! Wait for the meta to settle!" 

I would not be nearly as upset of they had shown even a small amount of love to Grey Knights, of my two armies I play Grey Knights got a really lame codex, and the Eldar index felt like the nerfbat was being swung due to Internet hyperbole and they just kept swinging that bat past the point of being competitive and we'll into nearly unplayable, I fully expect the Eldar codex to either be worthless like the index, or they swing the other way and make it even more broken than AM.......either way I am not looking forward to the new codex especially, GW has shown that they have no idea how to make balanced and fair codexes.........

 DJ Illuminati wrote:

 2017/10/11 17:05:33     Subject: Now that the imperial guard codex is out...

I am enjoying that the arguments I'm seeing are "just because guard is broken compared to the first five codices doesn't mean it's actually OP! Wait for the rest" or "just because guard has a ton of undercosted units doesn't actually make them good! Wait for the meta to settle!" 

I would not be nearly as upset of they had shown even a small amount of love to Grey Knights, of my two armies I play Grey Knights got a really lame codex, and the Eldar index felt like the nerfbat was being swung due to Internet hyperbole and they just kept swinging that bat past the point of being competitive and we'll into nearly unplayable, I fully expect the Eldar codex to either be worthless like the index, or they swing the other way and make it even more broken than AM.......either way I am not looking forward to the new codex especially, GW has shown that they have no idea how to make balanced and fair codexes.........

Craftworlds (and, to some degree DE and Harlequins - although its less significant) have been doomed by Ynnari.

Strength from death remains as game breaking as it was in 7th. The solution was to gimp Eldar stats to points.
Which makes regular CE suck. Barring a major re-write I don't see that changing.

Ushtarador wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I played my first game against Codex-based Imperial Guard tonight. It was 3,000 points.
OH. MY. GOD.

So which part would you say was the problem? Clearly conscripts and guardsmen didn't really come into play here, they do virtually no damage at 24" with their flashlights - was it the superheavy, the Manticores, the Leman Russes? Which regiment did he play?

Well, the Conscripts and Guardsmen WOULD have come into play, had I gotten first turn turn - I would have had to pump a ton of firepower into them to get a half-decent chance of being able to assault even one of his tanks. Thanks to his conscripts and guardsmen, even if I *had* gotten turn 1, it wouldn't have mattered.

He had the regiment that gives re-rolls on number of shots for his Manticores, and Cadians on just about everything else. (Except a small detachment of Elysians he forgot to use.)

EVERYTHING he had was overpowered, except maybe the Scout Sentinels. (Simply because the Sentinels didn't have anything to do the whole game.)

Waaaghpower wrote:
EVERYTHING he had was overpowered

Everything you shoot at conscripts is wasted. Don't ever forget that. The IG player WANTS you wasting rolls on those guys.