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 Kaiyanwang wrote:
I have less patience for hypocrites; and Disney is incredibly hypocrite. They show themselves as modern and inclusive, but regardless they shallow statements, they wrote horrible female characters.


I don't think you understand what "hypocrisy" means. Claiming to be modern and inclusive and being terrible at writing are not mutually exclusive concepts.

- Phasma has ben introduced as a strong antagonist, it became a farce


Hardly. I don't really understand where all the expectations for her came from. If you ignore all of the marketing for her action figures and only look at what is actually shown in the movie she's a minor background character, nothing more. Whoever said she's the Boba Fett of the new series had it exactly right.

- The admiral came out as stubborn, incommunicative, incompetent. Compare with lando and Akbar in RotJ, as an example.


Well yes, but what does this have to do with feminism?

My comment above is about the chilling implication of the attraction for Ren. This would be essentially the fethed up relationship shown in that modern horror (not in the sense that has vampires) that is Twilight. I find it unacceptable from those that write that "the force is female".


Uh, what? What does any of this have to do with feminism? Rey being attracted to someone doesn't mean the creators are endorsing that as a healthy relationship. In fact, given how soon after that she rejects him and everything he stands for, I think it's pretty clearly presented as an unhealthy attraction. The reason people object to Twilight is that the author doesn't show the horror as horror, she endorses the horror and portrays it as virtue.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/19 05:51:08


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A bit OT, but why doesn't anybody employ an ultraviolet colored light saber? Seems like it would be a huge advantage against human eyed people. A bit of context https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/every-color-of-every-lightsaber-in-star-wars-in-one-chart/

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 Gordon Shumway wrote:
A bit OT, but why doesn't anybody employ an ultraviolet colored light saber? Seems like it would be a huge advantage against human eyed people. A bit of context https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/every-color-of-every-lightsaber-in-star-wars-in-one-chart/


Well, first off they would need to be able to see ultraviolet themselves, for safety reasons. Second, it would look really bad on screen.

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 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
 Gordon Shumway wrote:
A bit OT, but why doesn't anybody employ an ultraviolet colored light saber? Seems like it would be a huge advantage against human eyed people. A bit of context https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/every-color-of-every-lightsaber-in-star-wars-in-one-chart/


Well, first off they would need to be able to see ultraviolet themselves, for safety reasons. Second, it would look really bad on screen.


Totally agree with on screen, but in reality, since a lot of the complaints about the film has been based on why it isn't realistic, (not all, a lot of good structural discussion has taken place), one could train with a dummy colored light saber, and actually engage with an ultra violet one, when one wanted to. Of course, that might require training, which is silly in all the movies. None of them suggest the training is in any way physical (maybe Luke with his one handed handstand), but mental. In other words, just understanding the force is the training. Wrapping ones brain around it seems to be the key. Maybe the girl here just has a better brain. Wouldn't be the first time. Maybe in movies of this profile. Maybe that's where the criticism lies. Take a look. People who hate it seem to be predominately using the SJW tag line as a reason. Not everybody, and there are a fair amount of things to hate about the movie, but a lot.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/19 06:54:00


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 Gordon Shumway wrote:
A bit OT, but why doesn't anybody employ an ultraviolet colored light saber? Seems like it would be a huge advantage against human eyed people. A bit of context https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/every-color-of-every-lightsaber-in-star-wars-in-one-chart/


In canon sources (ie. the movies) all lightsabers are RGB, except Mace Windu's one. Maybe the colour choice are limited and one can't just pick "a puce saber with hint of ochre" at the store?

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 Ashiraya wrote:
I love Ren. I hated him at the start of TFA but he has really grown on me.

He is like an overly emotional insecure teenager Snape. He is really flawed and that's not a bad thing.


I agree, they are doing something different (for a Star Wars story). This is how they should have done Anakin in the prequels.

About Rey, people are wondering how she quickly became so powerful and skilled in Force despite minimal teaching. Maybe Leia gave her some tips, though it seems there really wasn't time. Luke had 2 short lessons, that's much less than he himself received from Yoda.

But the answer is obvious. Rey is Dark Side user. Dark Side is quicker and easier. You can even see it in her scenes.She is nearly always scared or angry in the scenes she uses Force. Contrast this to very different way Luke used Force in the originals.

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Backfire wrote:
 Gordon Shumway wrote:
A bit OT, but why doesn't anybody employ an ultraviolet colored light saber? Seems like it would be a huge advantage against human eyed people. A bit of context https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/every-color-of-every-lightsaber-in-star-wars-in-one-chart/


In canon sources (ie. the movies) all lightsabers are RGB, except Mace Windu's one. Maybe the colour choice are limited and one can't just pick "a puce saber with hint of ochre" at the store?


Ok, except for Sam Jacksons one. Once you break it...really, they could be any color. I'm only pointing it out because of the other posters who want every stupid thing to be in cannon and explained until it isn't. My in cannon concern should be just as important. Or it shouldn't.

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 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Backfire wrote:
 Gordon Shumway wrote:
A bit OT, but why doesn't anybody employ an ultraviolet colored light saber? Seems like it would be a huge advantage against human eyed people. A bit of context https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/every-color-of-every-lightsaber-in-star-wars-in-one-chart/


In canon sources (ie. the movies) all lightsabers are RGB, except Mace Windu's one. Maybe the colour choice are limited and one can't just pick "a puce saber with hint of ochre" at the store?


Ok, except for Sam Jacksons one. Once you break it...really, they could be any color. I'm only pointing it out because of the other posters who want every stupid thing to be in cannon and explained until it isn't. My in cannon concern should be just as important. Or it shouldn't.


Wasn't it due to stone/jewel/whatever that focuses the beam so would be limited to what properties stone is? Though maybe that's not canon due to being in books.

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Nah, it was just due to Jackson wanting purple. Which is too bad, cause it could have been cool. A bit like growing up. A bit like taking in the new movies. But at some point we all have to do it. My point is pretty much the same as RH's here. No myths, no backstory, no hope is going to come to your rescue. There are no gods, there is no light, and no dark. If you want that, you are praying to the wrong gods. They aren't listening. They are Disney. Dew dew dew dit dew dit ditty dew dew dew. I liked it. Is there a way to do music here, like in notation?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/19 09:18:40


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I'm not sure how it's left following the Disney buy-out, but....

The Khyber crystal would, still canonically, be chosen by The Right Jedi. This is shown in an episode of Clone Wars where some Younglings are taken to find their own crystals, and the trials therein.

Sith however have used artificial crystals, and that's why their blades are red. But, I'm not 100% sure if that is still canonical.

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I think the toons up through Rebels are cannon. So sometimes horns are hard objects, and sometimes they aren't.

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As far as I can remember The full length Clone Wars series (EG not the shorts) is 100% Canon. As is Rebels (EG Hera and the Ghost being in Rogue One) and I think the new cartoon, "Forces of Destiny."
   
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Yup. Clone Wars is completely Canon.

Including I believe the not-released-everywhere 'Lost Missions', which I can recommend.

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 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Nah, it was just due to Jackson wanting purple. Which is too bad, cause it could have been cool. A bit like growing up. A bit like taking in the new movies. But at some point we all have to do it. My point is pretty much the same as RH's here. No myths, no backstory, no hope is going to come to your rescue. There are no gods, there is no light, and no dark. If you want that, you are praying to the wrong gods. They aren't listening. They are Disney. Dew dew dew dit dew dit ditty dew dew dew. I liked it. Is there a way to do music here, like in notation?


Different coloured light sabers have been thing waaaaaaay before Jackson was even involved in star wars.

Clearly there's something that makes them different coloured but has that been covered in canon? One book cited crystals used in the hilt of light saber but whether that is canon or not is another question. But if we go it is then simple reason why there's no ultralight light saber: None of the crystals produce one.

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Also theres a big plot hole in Roses and the First Order backstory.

Spoiler:


One of the reasons the novels give for why the Republic didn't realize the First Order was rearming was that Leia never had any hard evidence and that the First Order was being sneaky about it. So the Republic didn't just send a massive fleet once they learned they were training Stormtroopers and building Star Destroyers.

But Rose tells us that hers was one of many inhabited worlds strip mined to fund the First Order war effort and that her people were then used for target practice by those weapons. Also BF2 slightly elaborates that the FO kidnapped the vast bulk of its personal from across the galaxy as children.

Which means its impossible to have kept things like this a secret, especially since Rose would be a credible witness to such activity and its a bit difficult to conceal things like strip mining planets and bombarding them from orbit; killing millions of people tends to draw attention.

Also the FO got most of its military equipment via contacts within the wider galaxy. Did people not wonder who was building all the Star Destroyers that were filling Kuat Drive Yards? How could the FO control the flow of information and prevent the Republic from noticing or the press from finding out. People tend to notice when you are building a 60km ship above the core worlds.

If this was the plot of an animated show like Rebels I'd think it was being silly and that the writers hadn't thought this through. But apparently because Disney has spent a ton of money on this franchise they feel they don't need to bother with thinking this through and are immune from criticism. Hell, Rebels and the Clone Wars are like War and Peace compared to this rubbish.



Spoiler:


I mean Rian Johnson has, with a serious face, said that in his 2 and a half hour long film he could not spend 30 seconds explaining who his main villain was. As if we're supposed to listen to the wise film-maker and accept his wisdom. Its nonsense.

Lord of the Rings takes the time to explain who Sauron is in the opening scene and explain its own mythology. That only serves to make the film a richer and more profound experience. Why does reducing Snoke to the level of a generic character we nothing about make him a more compelling character? One they actively pushed in all of the trailer and the previous film?

When many fans were actually engaged and curious about the character Rian Johnson decides he can't spare 30 seconds to provide basic exposition. I think that really does reveal an utter contempt Rian Johnson and Disney have for Star Wars Lore and the fans. Its the complete reverse of how masterfully they have won fans over with the Marvel franchise.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
What gets me is this.

Adam Driver said in an interview that he had basically had to head canon what he thought Kylo Rens backstory was to help him as an actor. Which means the writers haven't even bothered to think about this themselves. I can remember watching Ridley Scott do an audio commentary on Covenant and he remarks that in the original Alien the actors asked for a little backstory to be written by the director for them to work with. He thought it was unnecessary because "you are here to die and its not relevant to the plot". But he realized that this helped the actors get into the role and he decided to do that with Covenant. Surely its better for your writers to brainstorm this stuff about the character and brief your actor on it; even if it isn't all going to be spelt out in the movie.

Plus I just compare this to books like A Song of Ice and Fire where you do feel like this is a fully realized and thought out world. Its why people got annoyed in some set pieces in the most recent GoT season. People like to feel like the story has been well thought out and isn't just there to usher us to the next big spectacle.

A film can't have that same level of detail, but I feel you should certainly attempt to do so. If your heroes are fighting to save the galaxy then it serves to tell us stuff about this galaxy to know why its worth saving.
Spoiler:
Does Holdo's speech about restoring the Republic mean anything if the film does not convey what a character within that setting would associate that with? The legacy of the rebellion, a government that had existed for thousands of years before. All because neither JJ or Rian have explained what the New Republic meant to people and why destroying it was a terrible thing for these people.
I think you do need to know those things because they would be important to our characters. Otherwise the story telling becomes increasingly shallow and superficial.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/19 10:52:09



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Plus, I don't get why people are calling the film morally grey and I think its even a little sickening that people think it is.

Spoiler:


For something to be morally grey there has to be some equivalency between the two sides. This does not happen in the Last Jedi. The Resistance are, as per Admiral Holdo's speech, aiming to Restore the Republic exactly like the Rebel Alliance. This is an unequivocal statement, backed up by her later heroic sacrifice. Po Dameron in the first scene says that he is "Po Dameron of the Republic Navy". So our heroes are trying to restore peace and democracy to the galaxy. In this context the First Orders attack on the Hosnian System in the previous film is an unprovoked assault against the legitimate democratic government. The insinuation is that the New Republic is clearly viewed by our characters as the expression of popular sovereignty; not as an out of touch clique of elites. So the film is definitely not critical of the good guys institutions or radically populist because our goal is to maintain the status quo from an assault by a criminal Nazi regime. Whose soldiers use entire planetary populations for target practice.

A lot of people point at the war profiteering people selling X Wings as an example of moral greyness. There are two major problems with that assessment. Firstly, this does not directly implicate the New Republic. We aren't told this is a Republic world. The people in question are corporate interests. We don't see, for example, corrupt senators who have joined the First Order. Its also a misreading of that exchange. The slicer is arguing that these capitalists can't be so bad because they also sold weapons to the good guys and so is arguing that he shouldn't be loyal out of principle. To me this was part of a core theme of Hope vs Cynicism. You see this over and over again in the film. You are not supposed to agree with this slicers opinion. The fact the capitalists sell weapons to both sides is something that criminalizes them, not the governments who buy them since the New Republic used its military as a citizen defense aimed at protecting democracy. Which means its something inconsequential to the core struggle between the First Order and the Resistance. Meaning it does not make that conflict morally grey.

For example, Roses reaction to her people being slaughtered by Imperials is not, to blame the New Republic for not helping her people. In fact she joins a military organization which per film canon in the opening of TFA we are told is supported secretly by the New Republic.

We then have Kylo Ren. Mr Emo himself. "From my point of view the Jedi are evil!". This is a weak man and I find it really sad that the audience is so primed to sympathize with a monster and have such callous disregard for his victims. Yes, Luke considers killing him. Because he rightly see's that Kylo Ren is a monster. Which is validated because he immediately runs out and we are told offhand that he slaughtered everyone in the Jedi Temple; presumably including all of the children. Whilst apparently the characters decision not to murder his mother is considered sympathetic? That's completely forgetting him murdering Han. Plus considering his goal seems to be to slaughter people who want to restore democracy are we really supposed to view him with any sympathy. This thing is an animal, he needs to be put down and I think its almost offensive that Rian Johnson thinks we should spend any time sympathizing with the villain. Its only because Rian Johnson deflects and avoids Kylo Rens crimes, as well as the crimes of the First order more generally, that people are not saying that this is a clear cut moral tale.

Another reason is the supposed criticism of some of the previous institutions in Star Wars. For example Kylo tells Rey to let the past die listing how the Sith, Empire, First Order, Jedi etc should end and a new (Second?) Order should rise. Theres one enormous problem people have willfully overlooked. Rey rejects Rens cynicism. More generally, if a villain is telling you that they hate everything about Star Wars its a bizarre conclusion to draw that they are right. Which I think relates to my above point that Rey refutes Luke on the Jedi having to end because they didn't stop Sideous and is clearly being set up to re-establish the Jedi Order. Holdo tells us about reforming the Republic and Luke that the Rebellion has been reborn. I think people are projecting their own expectations that the film would be grey. Indeed for all its faults I did not feel like it actually challenged the core pillars of Star Wars. If we had then Rey would have disbanded the Jedi, she would have joined Ren, the Republic dismissed as a failure. Indeed the very point is that you hold on to hope even in the face of failure and that the point is a moral principle not a materialist one of "oh I have this massive fleet so I always win. Might makes right!".

Which leads in to another point. Our heroes constantly lose so it must be morally grey. Again this confuses morality with power. You can still be morally right and lose. Just look at Ned Stark in Game of Thrones. Good man, but doomed. Same thing with the resistance. Unless you really believe we are supposed to criticize the Resistance for being weak and that might makes right. They are simply doing the best they can in an impossible situation imposed on them because Disney made the First Order overpowered. I mean considering three small cruisers destroyed a ridiculously large number of FO ships you have to wonder what the NR fleet could do. I mean considering that Mon Cal is considered a cruiser I am guessing the New Repbulic had a few large dreadnoughts of its own before plot device base destroyed it. All this doesn't mean we are invited to criticize the good guys. Where it does in the case of the Jedi the point is that such cynicism is misplaced and that you should always hold on to hope.

Finally we have the populism which people think subverts Star Wars "Monarchist" and "Dynastic" leanings. By making Rey a nobody it makes the stunning revelation that anyone can be a Jedi. Few points. Anakin was a slave in Episode 1 and Luke a farm boy. The Skywalkers are not even an aristocratic family with vast inherited wealth. This confuses family identity and legacy with contemporary issues. The Skywalker legacy, or the Solo legacy IS one of the common man. So its really disingenuous to imply that Rey is any different in this regard or that being from a known family would have diminished this. In fact if she really is going to become a Satele Shan Grand Jedi Master doing twirly wirly with a double light saber then she is going to have a great legacy that will presumably be passed on to her children. So its not deconstructing hero mythology at all. Plus its never been stated that ordinary people can't be Jedi. Ezra from Rebels, Ahsoka from the Clone Wars. In fact the vast bulk of Jedi are not aristocratic, they simply come from across the galaxy and are primarily defined by their role as monkish paladins; not any sort of background. Also how is it morally grey if you are stressing that one faction represents the common people and yet the other represents despotism and tyranny? I do not follow this reasoning.







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 Totalwar1402 wrote:

I mean Rian Johnson has, with a serious face, said that in his 2 and a half hour long film he could not spend 30 seconds explaining who his main villain was. As if we're supposed to listen to the wise film-maker and accept his wisdom. Its nonsense.

Lord of the Rings takes the time to explain who Sauron is in the opening scene and explain its own mythology. That only serves to make the film a richer and more profound experience. Why does reducing Snoke to the level of a generic character we nothing about make him a more compelling character? One they actively pushed in all of the trailer and the previous film?




Have you considered that people merely assumed Snoke was the main villain of the piece, and Kylo Ren is the one the focus is actually meant to be on (and whose backstory is more than adequately explained). Sure, LotR sets up Sauron as the main antagonist, but does Melkor ever get more than a name-drop? Nope. Snoke is the Melkor to Kylo Ren's Sauron; an important figure in the setting, but as far as the story being told is concerned, simply the one who created the actual antagonist.

Again, it all comes down to people assuming things that are not implied anywhere. Rey must have important parents. Snoke must be a Someone. So on and so forth. All that is the product of 2 years of speculation fuelled by clickbait headlines and grasping-at-straws theories, and not from anything suggested in TFA.

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I don't think we're being asked to sympathise with Kylo Ren, so much as empathise with his position.

That's not the same as having to accept his actions are in anyway justified.

As I mentioned a few pages back, Ben Solo is a victim. All his life (from his point of view), he's had people wanting to exploit or control his power. A power he never asked for.

His Parents sack him off because he's hard work.

His Uncle tries to kill him.

His new Master treats him like dirt.

He's deeply, hideously damaged. And as of the closing scenes of TFA, irredeemable. That was when he made the choice. He could've turned, but chose not to.

His journey isn't all that different to Anakin's - but I'd argue they've managed to tell it in a much better, and certainly more succinct, manner.

We're not meant to excuse him. We're meant to pity him.

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just to throw my 2 cents in... I was very disappointed in the movie. No problem with killing characters or the direction of the film...it was the way they did it that was faintly absurd. Tons of individually gorgeous and well made scenes that didn't seem to fit into an overall narrative.

1) the force awakens only makes sense as a starting point for some interesting threads...those threads aren't really picked up. So the last jedi as a sequel to the force awakens means the force awakens is pretty pointless.

2) the bombers.... bombs in space. I'll repeat. Bombs in space. There is a reason every other "bomber" used missiles. BTW, the scene was beautifully shot. Even loved the falling bomb release part, But no tension at all... why? Cause bombs in space don't work. Just tip the bomb bay at the target and release. Same inertia...same effect. Just dumb. The grabbing of the medallion? Awesome! Thought it would connect to some force thing. How else would she have been able to get the controller? But nope...

3) space mary poppins. jesus that was awful. Wow. Leia dead early. Abrupt. Brutal. Understandable cause Fisher is dead....but no. Leia lives. So, that scene was what they intended? Really? Yeah, i get they want to show leia has force powers for film 9. But since she's dead... kinda pointless. And having her survive the movie? So now theyll kill her in the crawl of episode 9? And Holdo got the heroic death that leia should have been given. sad. More on holdo in a minute....

4)finn and rose to the casino planet. Pointless. Why not just have 1 line of dialogue explaining how they can sneak past the imperial shields? the only point was to give finn something to do, yell about consumerism and show the kids. The ending kids scene would have been fine all on its own

5) couldn't find anything better to do with poe than be a mutineer? nuff said.

6) holdo..wow. lots of possibilities absolutely wasted. Why couldn't she just say "this is the plan" ...mutiny over. No auto pilot in the star wars universe? odd. Is that all it takes to cripple the enemy fleet? Uhhh...why didn't you do that first?

7) phasma. a bad guy dying only is awesome when you feel they are bad and and dangerous. So, that was a nothing burger.

i haven't even started in on the luke stuff. I don't mind what they did....i just think they did it poorly.

In regards to some of the discussion about treatment of any non white male character. It does feel like disney was just ticking off boxes on a diveristy chart. But then again, this script felt like it was just ticking off boxes. every character was poorly written. To say they wrote a weak character for rey ignores every other weak character in the movie.

8) kylo/rey mind thing...ok, shirtless was jarring. But I liked the concept of trying to find a middle. that middle had to be defined by rey and kylo so you had to get them conversing somehow. Not bad.

9) kylo..so what is his stated purpose? beyond daddy issues what is he trying to do? i still don't know..and maybe he doesn't either. I'm ok with it. glad he smashed the helmet.

10) rey... perfectly fine with her direction. I just wish they had handled her better. Went from trying to find her place to "ill turn him' pretty quick. direction ok. handling: poor.

11) luke....milking. yuck. I have zero problem with his end. But hey need to explain that what he would do would be deadly so you understand the import of the hologram fight. also.."be seeing you"? ummm...no. he didn't strike you down and you didn't live. so...no.,

12) snoke....so...why was he in either film? to connect rey and kylo! no. you could have had the force do that without snoke. not needed. a giant pointless character that added nothing. wated opportunity IMO.

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On Luke and his being one with The Force.

Hammil will be in Episode IX. The same way Obi-Wan was in V and VI, and Yoda rocked up in VIII.

Hence the 'be seeing you'. He became as one with The Force. What better way to distract and irritate, and possibly redeem Ben than to be constantly there, with no way for anyone to get rid of you.

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So episode IX, we just get a really smug-looking Luke in the background of all Kylo's scenes, and occasionally Kylo will see him and go ballistic on something everyone else can't even see? Yep, sounds good!

 
   
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 Paradigm wrote:
 Totalwar1402 wrote:

I mean Rian Johnson has, with a serious face, said that in his 2 and a half hour long film he could not spend 30 seconds explaining who his main villain was. As if we're supposed to listen to the wise film-maker and accept his wisdom. Its nonsense.

Lord of the Rings takes the time to explain who Sauron is in the opening scene and explain its own mythology. That only serves to make the film a richer and more profound experience. Why does reducing Snoke to the level of a generic character we nothing about make him a more compelling character? One they actively pushed in all of the trailer and the previous film?




Have you considered that people merely assumed Snoke was the main villain of the piece, and Kylo Ren is the one the focus is actually meant to be on (and whose backstory is more than adequately explained). Sure, LotR sets up Sauron as the main antagonist, but does Melkor ever get more than a name-drop? Nope. Snoke is the Melkor to Kylo Ren's Sauron; an important figure in the setting, but as far as the story being told is concerned, simply the one who created the actual antagonist.

Again, it all comes down to people assuming things that are not implied anywhere. Rey must have important parents. Snoke must be a Someone. So on and so forth. All that is the product of 2 years of speculation fuelled by clickbait headlines and grasping-at-straws theories, and not from anything suggested in TFA.


Melkor isn't in the LoTR so it isn't a good comparison.

Well he is the leader of the First Order, corrupted Kylo, is in all the trailers and was actively hyped up by the actors and writers as the most powerful force user ever. So yes I do expect 30 seconds of exposition on who the dude is. I'd expect that of a Saturday morning cartoon, never mind a million dollar production film.

That is a very cheap defense of bad story telling. Would Frodo beating Sauron have had greater significance, which Mr Johnson insists here, if you had removed all of the exposition about who he was and what he did in the past? Knowing that Sauron was this ancient evil added weight behind his defeat. Its counter intuitive to say that giving him less exposition than Skeletor adds weight to when Kylo kills him.


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But that scene isn't about Snoke. It's about Kylo, and all we need to know for the scene to work is that Snoke was Kylo's master, was the leader of the FO, was exceptionally powerful and had emotionally tortured and tormented him throughout his training. all of which we see on screen over the two films.

 
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I don't think we're being asked to sympathise with Kylo Ren, so much as empathise with his position.

That's not the same as having to accept his actions are in anyway justified.

As I mentioned a few pages back, Ben Solo is a victim. All his life (from his point of view), he's had people wanting to exploit or control his power. A power he never asked for.

His Parents sack him off because he's hard work.

His Uncle tries to kill him.

His new Master treats him like dirt.

He's deeply, hideously damaged. And as of the closing scenes of TFA, irredeemable. That was when he made the choice. He could've turned, but chose not to.

His journey isn't all that different to Anakin's - but I'd argue they've managed to tell it in a much better, and certainly more succinct, manner.

We're not meant to excuse him. We're meant to pity him.


Which is making excuses for his behavior and diminishing his responsibility for his own actions. Pity has to be earned. Kylo has done nothing worthy of pity or sympathy. He is the cause of much of the pain and suffering in this series. His efforts to blame others for his own faults are despicable. He has twice refused open handed offers of redemption. He is scum. End of discussion.

But I would say that Rey, even Han's desire to seek the good in this man is a double edged sword. Its supposed to make us think of our heroes as compassionate. But where is the compassion for the dead of Hosnian Prime? For all those butchered by the First Order? For the younglings he murders in the Jedi Temple? These things are barely given passing mention. JJ and Johnson fixate obsessively on Kylo's "redeemable" and "sympathetic" traits as a victim so much they and their heroes lose perspective of all the horrible thing they have done. As if one mans rage outweighs the greater good, even the very lives of society. Its taking individualism to a sickening conclusion. Rey should be far more concerned for all the people who have been killed by this man, not buying into his sob story as if it even matters at this point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/19 16:12:27



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What, you mean like when Luke attempts (successfully) to redeem the child-murdering, planet-destruction-watching, family-torturing Vader in RotJ?

 
   
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 Paradigm wrote:
But that scene isn't about Snoke. It's about Kylo, and all we need to know for the scene to work is that Snoke was Kylo's master, was the leader of the FO, was exceptionally powerful and had emotionally tortured and tormented him throughout his training. all of which we see on screen over the two films.


That's like saying all we needed to know about Sauron is that he leads Orcs and wants his ring back. Context matters.

They had plenty of opportunities in there 2.5 hour long film to do an exposition or flashback scene. Its disingenuous to say that it would have spoiled a finale with Kylo if in a 5 minute segment we had had 30 seconds of exposition. That's shifting the goal posts and distorting the truth on Mr Johnsons part and I suspect he knows that full well considering how much bloat was the film already.


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 Paradigm wrote:
So episode IX, we just get a really smug-looking Luke in the background of all Kylo's scenes, and occasionally Kylo will see him and go ballistic on something everyone else can't even see? Yep, sounds good!


Nah.

It'll be a smug-looking Luke in the background of all Kylo's scene repeating everything Kylo says but in a mocking, high pitched voice.

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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
 Paradigm wrote:
But that scene isn't about Snoke. It's about Kylo, and all we need to know for the scene to work is that Snoke was Kylo's master, was the leader of the FO, was exceptionally powerful and had emotionally tortured and tormented him throughout his training. all of which we see on screen over the two films.


That's like saying all we needed to know about Sauron is that he leads Orcs and wants his ring back. Context matters.


Again, Kylo Ren is the Sauron of this trilogy. He is the primary antagonist, he is the nemesis for all the heroes, he is the one who poses the greatest threat to the characters arrayed against him. Snoke is a plot device to allow Kylo Ren to demonstrate his ruthlessness and provide a momentary chance for redemption which Kylo then declines.

Seriously, what do you think a complete history of Snoke would have added to this film, beyond meeting the assumption that he has to have a massively important past?

 
   
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