The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within

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**Mr Morden**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
They had five star destroyers - you have half launch, half hold back. That's not even counting the giant super ship of doom - whose guns are pretty crap for a giant super ship of doom.

And then the rebels jump, and half your fighters are gone without the rebels firing a single shot. Remember, they knew it was an evacuation with the rebels preparing to jump as soon as possible. Throwing away half their fighters on the chance that a single x-wing is piloted by the god of fighter combat instead of a mortal being is bad strategy.

No - half the fleet goes with the giant ship, half the fleet recovers its fighters and follows the fleet a few minutes later - they have intersteller coms given that the rebels were happily chatting to people vast distances away with no problem so they can be beack with them in minutes.

Minutes is enough time to make a second jump. The Imperial fleet was estimating the fuel reserves of the resistance fleet, all it would need would be for the resistance to have a secret reserve fuel supply they didn't factor in for the fleet to end up strung out.

Which doesn't matter - you still have at least two battleships/ACs and a Super giant Battleship vs a crappy cruiser and some transports - the only ship even bothering to fire in the film is the gaint super ship - the ISDs do nothing in the entire film - I did wonder if they were just empty shells to make the FO look good.

The whole point is that its the last rebels with their last ships. Again it takes only a few minutes to recover fighters at most - then they jump to your super gaint ships and remaining escorts location as you have coms. Simples! If you are realy worried you cycle a single ISDs complement each time.

**A Town Called Malus**

Peregrine wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Death Star towers didn't shoot down a single fighter in A New Hope. Also, the manoeuvres that Poe was performing whilst he was taking out the guns were phenomenal, involving extremely fast switching between maximum velocity (plus extra momentum provided by that booster) and combat formation.

It was, quite frankly, the best display of flying ever shown in Star Wars.

Right, because Poe is a main character and god of starfighter combat, not a mortal pilot. It's explicitly stated that if he fails to take out the guns, all of the guns, the bomber attack is doomed. If leaving a single gun intact means the rest of the attack has no hope of success then it's safe to say that the guns are effective, it's just that Poe is a main character and wins because plot.

PS: poor, neglected Porkins. First he's the subject of every fat meme, now we've forgotten his sacrifice entirely.

It is also worth noting that the bombers used to take out the Dreadnought had zero manoeuvrability compared to X-Wings and Y-Wings.

Also, Porkins only got shot down due to his X-Wing having issues, rather than the Death Star turbolasers being any way effective at targeting and hitting the craft used in the first Death Star attack.

**Peregrine**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Also, Porkins only got shot down due to his X-Wing having issues, rather than the Death Star turbolasers being any way effective at targeting and hitting the craft used in the first Death Star attack.

He took a hit from AA fire that damaged his ship, then exploded once he was an easy enough target.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

A Town Called Malus wrote:
It is also worth noting that the bombers used to take out the Dreadnought had zero manoeuvrability compared to X-Wings and Y-Wings.

Sure, but that's the threat they were faced with. The AA guns alone get the job done if Poe is replaced by a mortal pilot instead of a main character who must succeed because of plot. Not launching the fighters was a mistake bad enough to get the dreadnought captain pretty mad about it, but it shouldn't have been a fatal one.

**Mr Morden**

Peregrine wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Also, Porkins only got shot down due to his X-Wing having issues, rather than the Death Star turbolasers being any way effective at targeting and hitting the craft used in the first Death Star attack.

He took a hit from AA fire that damaged his ship, then exploded once he was an easy enough target.

Also they turn off some of the guns once Vader and his wingmen go hunting.

**A Town Called Malus**

Mr Morden wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
They had five star destroyers - you have half launch, half hold back. That's not even counting the giant super ship of doom - whose guns are pretty crap for a giant super ship of doom.

And then the rebels jump, and half your fighters are gone without the rebels firing a single shot. Remember, they knew it was an evacuation with the rebels preparing to jump as soon as possible. Throwing away half their fighters on the chance that a single x-wing is piloted by the god of fighter combat instead of a mortal being is bad strategy.

No - half the fleet goes with the giant ship, half the fleet recovers its fighters and follows the fleet a few minutes later - they have intersteller coms given that the rebels were happily chatting to people vast distances away with no problem so they can be beack with them in minutes.

Minutes is enough time to make a second jump. The Imperial fleet was estimating the fuel reserves of the resistance fleet, all it would need would be for the resistance to have a secret reserve fuel supply they didn't factor in for the fleet to end up strung out.

Which doesn't matter - you till have at least two battleships/ACs and a Super giant Battleship vs a crappy cruiser and some transports - the only ship even bothering to fire in the film is the gaint super ship - the ISDs do nothing in the entire film - I did wonder if they were just shells to make the FO look good.

The whole point is that its the last rebels with their last ships. Again it takes only a few minutes to recover fighters at most - then they jump to your super gaint ships and remaining escorts location as you have coms. Simples! If you are realy worried you cycle a single ISDs complement each time

Two battleships with no fighter support and then if they release fighters they end up stranding those fighters if the rebels jump again etc.

Also, there was no point in the other Star Destroyers firing at the cruiser. If it was outside the effective range of the guns of the flagship, it was well out of the effective range of the guns of the standard Star Destroyers.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Also, Porkins only got shot down due to his X-Wing having issues, rather than the Death Star turbolasers being any way effective at targeting and hitting the craft used in the first Death Star attack.

He took a hit from AA fire that damaged his ship, then exploded once he was an easy enough target.

He took a hit from debris from a destroyed tower, according to Wookieepedia.

**Mr Morden**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
They had five star destroyers - you have half launch, half hold back. That's not even counting the giant super ship of doom - whose guns are pretty crap for a giant super ship of doom.

And then the rebels jump, and half your fighters are gone without the rebels firing a single shot. Remember, they knew it was an evacuation with the rebels preparing to jump as soon as possible. Throwing away half their fighters on the chance that a single x-wing is piloted by the god of fighter combat instead of a mortal being is bad strategy.

No - half the fleet goes with the giant ship, half the fleet recovers its fighters and follows the fleet a few minutes later - they have intersteller coms given that the rebels were happily chatting to people vast distances away with no problem so they can be beack with them in minutes.

Minutes is enough time to make a second jump. The Imperial fleet was estimating the fuel reserves of the resistance fleet, all it would need would be for the resistance to have a secret reserve fuel supply they didn't factor in for the fleet to end up strung out.

Which doesn't matter - you till have at least two battleships/ACs and a Super giant Battleship vs a crappy cruiser and some transports - the only ship even bothering to fire in the film is the gaint super ship - the ISDs do nothing in the entire film - I did wonder if they were just shells to make the FO look good.

The whole point is that its the last rebels with their last ships. Again it takes only a few minutes to recover fighters at most - then they jump to your super gaint ships and remaining escorts location as you have coms. Simples! If you are realy worried you cycle a single ISDs complement each time

Two battleships with no fighter support and then if they release fighters they end up stranding those fighters if the rebels jump again etc.

Also, there was no point in the other Star Destroyers firing at the cruiser. If it was outside the effective range of the guns of the flagship, it was well out of the effective range of the guns of the standard Star Destroyers.

.

Nope - you always have plenty of fighters.

1. You either launch you CAP so maybe a full ISDs capacity - if you want to make an attack then you go for maybe 2 ships worth.
2. The Rebel fleet jump - yout Super-Giant ship (with all its fighters) jumps with 3 ISDs
3.You either launch you CAP so maybe a full ISDs capacity - if you want to make an attack then you go for maybe 2 ships worth.
4. Somehow the rebels jump again -your Super-Giant ship (with all its fighters) jumps with 1 ISDs
5.You launch you CAP - a full ISDs capacity
5. after a few minutes the rest of your ISDs jump to your location, because your are in constant coms with them. repeat as desired

And thats without the ISDs jumping to your location between jumps, or the rebel ship being damaged by swarms of fighters or running out of fuel

Lastly we know the Fo considers their fighters expendable because they are still using TIEs - if not they would buy X wings (why they don't as well is not especialyl clear but can be hand waved I guess)

**AlexHolker**

Peregrine wrote:
One possible point in defense of the lack of fighters: TIE fighters, at least in the old canon, don't have a hyperdrive.

This is true, but some idiot decided the First Order should have two-seater TIE fighters with shields and hyperdrives that look identical to the old TIE fighters.

**dogma**

Peregrine wrote:
One possible point in defense of the lack of fighters: TIE fighters, at least in the old canon, don't have a hyperdrive. If you launch TIEs you're committing to either abandoning your fighter screen in space as soon as you have to jump, or being tied down to one location while you wait to recover them. Does the hyperspace tracking thing work if the tracking ship doesn't pursue immediately? If so it makes sense to only launch fighters once you know they're needed and avoid getting baited into leaving them all behind and getting your capital ships killed by a fighter attack you can no longer defend against.

The FO TIEs don't have hyperdrives either, but they do have shields; though that isn't stated in the films. It easily could have been, Poe could have said something along the lines of "These things have shields!?" when he escapes with Finn.

What is stated in the films is that FO soldiers are disposable, Finn wasn't given a name until Poe gave him one.

**GoatboyBeta**

Some of the First Order Ties do have hyperdrives but most don't. I think the main take from the Dreadnought battle is that Hux is an overconfident idiot promoted way above his talent level.

**dogma**

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Some of the First Order Ties do have hyperdrives but most don't. I think the main take from the Dreadnought battle is that Hux is an overconfident idiot promoted way above his talent level.

When was that mentioned? Poe and Finn flee a Star Destroyer in the Jakku System, and crash on Jakku.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Manchu wrote:
I believe the studio has spent some marketing money to conjure up a kind of character on whom it can pin negative reaction to TLJ. This character is:

- 25-45 years old
- male
- white
- emtionally immature/disturbed
- misogynist
- racist
- "obsessed" with Star Wars
- deeply committed to now-defunct SW products

In the context of the wider social mood, this character is completely unsympathetic. Anything he might be able to say about the weaknesses of a film would be completely undermined by his immoral, childish, and generally pathetic demeanor. Looking down on him makes people feel better about themselves. Making fun of him doesn't make you a bully; it makes you a Good Person.

He was the same guy who said The Force Awakens was a disappointing remake. He was the same guy who said Rogue One was boring. Of course, all Good People know he just doesn't like women and non-whites. So there's no reason to wonder if he had a point about those movies. Right?

Funny how the only time this guy gets any news coverage is when a corporation doesn't want the public talking about the actual movie it produced and distributed.

Have you been Red Pilled, Manchu?

**GoatboyBeta**

dogma wrote:
GoatboyBeta wrote:
Some of the First Order Ties do have hyperdrives but most don't. I think the main take from the Dreadnought battle is that Hux is an overconfident idiot promoted way above his talent level.

When was that mentioned? Poe and Finn flee a Star Destroyer in the Jakku System, and crash on Jakku.

The Special forces(two man) Tie has a Hyperdrive http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/sf_space_superiority_fighter. Poe and Finn don't use it as Poe wants to head back to Jakku to get BB-8.

**Miguelsan**

Peregrine wrote:
One possible point in defense of the lack of fighters: TIE fighters, at least in the old canon, don't have a hyperdrive. If you launch TIEs you're committing to either abandoning your fighter screen in space as soon as you have to jump, or being tied down to one location while you wait to recover them. Does the hyperspace tracking thing work if the tracking ship doesn't pursue immediately? If so it makes sense to only launch fighters once you know they're needed and avoid getting baited into leaving them all behind and getting your capital ships killed by a fighter attack you can no longer defend against.

But in real life you don't have a carrier stopping to recover a plane that has to ditch. They use a escorting ship or a helicopter for that. I guess the FO could use a destroyer for the same if the big ship had to jump to light speed. Plus it would be doing something more useful that just follow the big ship while staring at whatever they were staring that obviously was not the sensor's screen.

M.

**GoatboyBeta**

Some dialog about Snoke wanting the Resistance to suffer as the First Order slowly ran them down(possibly to try and lure out Luke and/or Rey) would have solved the whole thing.

A bit like having Maz Kanata's castle in the same system(moon of the same gas giant maybe?) as the New Republic capital would have solved one of the problems with the Starkiller base weapon.

**Mozzyfuzzy**

Did anyone else notice that in a movie about, the spirit of rebellion and not doing heroic sacrificing for the big picture and love and stuff.

That they throw away what fleet they have left in order to teach Poe a lesson about leadership?

While also not communicating to anyone what the plan is, in the end going for a heroic sacrifice to save the even fewer numbers of resistance personal.

**Manchu**

insaniak wrote:
Manchu wrote:
Unfortunately, one of those questions was Why should the audience care about the protagonist?

What answer do you need beyond 'They're likeable/relateable/kickass and I want to see how things work out for them?

Rey is definitely kickass - as in, she is extremely powerful relative to what is reasonably believable given what the audience actually knows about her - but she's not relateable and at this point it's really hurting her likeability. Even TLJ gets bored with her by the end, when the focus of the movie shifts completely away from her to concentrate on Ren and Luke. By the end of TLJ, her sole function is to perform a special effect because ... well, there's really nothing else for her to do because we don't know enough about her for her to be otherwise relevant to the climactic conflict. Contrast this to Kylo Ren, a fully realized character: he takes over as the main character by the end because we actually do know things about him and therefore we can care about what happens to him - not just as a matter of ultimate result but, more importantly, we want to see what he goes through to get there.

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Have you been Red Pilled, Manchu?

I just think the way studios try to manipulate us is sleazy and reprehensible. But apparently it's easier than making a decent Star Wars movie.

**Compel**

I'm watching The Force Awakens again right now and there's certainly a real feeling of their being more star wars 'magic' to it than TLJ, or even Rogue One, in fact.

Although, Rogue One IS still my favourite star wars film, it's still a war film first.

**Manchu**

Peregrine wrote:
Every part of the movie doesn't have to be interesting desperate action.

That's a good point. In ANH, there are domestic scenes where the protagonist is contextualized and characterized in contrast to the larger conflict that opened the movie. This picks back up when Luke is hanging out at Obi-Wan's house. This old-fashioned, slower pace served an important purpose: giving characters a chance to develop!

**GoatboyBeta**

If only TFA had shown Rey working as a scavenger and living alone in the ruins of the galactic civil war

**dogma**

GoatboyBeta wrote:

The Special forces(two man) Tie has a Hyperdrive http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/sf_space_superiority_fighter. Poe and Finn don't use it as Poe wants to head back to Jakku to get BB-8.

You're right, and Finn's statement about getting out of the system implies the existence of a hyperdrive; my mistake.

GoatboyBeta wrote:
If only TFA had shown Rey working as a scavenger and living alone in the ruins of the galactic civil war

But Luke is hardly unprovided for. Dude grew up on a multi-generational homestead that had enough disposable income to buy a slave, a T-16 Skyhopper, and get Jawa traders (read: scavengers) to stop by in order to ply their wares.

**warhead01**

I enjoyed TLJ. I took in a lot of negative reviews before hand and can see where a lot of them are coming from. There were several points that jumped out muck like the stuff that was complained about in those reviews. I totally get it. I grew up watching ANH probably a few times a week as a little kid.
It was definitely long. I feel they were smushing ESB and RoTJ into one movie, that's what came to mind.
I'm left wondering what's next. I don't think I'm a hard core fan as all I have ever seen were the movies and none of the other stuff and didn't play the games, beyond that one MMORP which became a nightmare fairly quickly.
I really hope Luke as a force ghost is used in the next movie. I'd like to see him troll both Kilo and Ray.
"See you around kid."

**GoatboyBeta**

After TLJ I'm going to try and keep my personal expectations and assumptions around the level of there will be lightsabers, Tie fighters and X-wings

**Eldarain**

GoatboyBeta wrote:
After TLJ I'm going to try and keep my personal expectations and assumptions around the level of there will be lightsabers, Tie fighters and X-wings

Smart. I think the lion's share of my disappointment came from enjoying TFA but expecting resolutions to the questions posed.

**insaniak**

GoatboyBeta wrote:
After TLJ I'm going to try and keep my personal expectations and assumptions around the level of there will be lightsabers, Tie fighters and X-wings

That's been my expectation since Attack of the Clones... And would have been from RotJ, if I had been older the first time I saw it. Maybe that's why I seem to have so much less trouble enjoying these movies than many seem to have.

**Manchu**

The good news is that Star Wars: The Last Jedi set another box office record. The bad news is that it’s not a “good” record but a pretty “bad” record. To wit, The Last Jedi topped the holiday box office with another $68.5m. That’s a sharp drop of 68.8%, which is not good for a big movie opening just before Christmas. But it’s about on par with Eragon, which also fell 68% after a $23m launch. I keep bringing up that Star Wars knock-off, starring John Malkovich… as Snoke!, because 2006 was the last time that Christmas Eve fell on a Sunday and Christmas Day, fell on a Monday, which is absolutely skewing the holds and overall numbers heading into the heart of the holiday season.

Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows part II fell 72% in its second weekend, while even Alien: Covenant (which also had the buffering of Memorial Day in its second weekend) fell 70% while Billy Lynn’s Long Halftime Walk dropped 77% over Thanksgiving in its second weekend of wide release. Now, when discussing Star Wars, you don’t necessarily want to be discussing reasons why the drop isn’t “that bad.” However, the film has already amassed a ridiculous amount of money in a relatively short time. Moreover, it’s a coin toss as to whether it will make up for some lost ground (compared to the likes of The Avengers and Jurassic World) once every kid is now off for the duration of the Christmas/New Year’s break.

So, here’s the indisputably lousy news: Rian Johnson’s Star Wars: The Last Jedi lost more money between its first and second weekends than any film ever, by a lot. Walt Disney’s The Last Jedi made $151 million less between its two weekends, which is way above the $121m gap from Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows part II ($169m/$42m) back in 2011 and more than Force Awakens' second ($149m) Fri-Sun weekend back in 2015. I’ve written from time to time about the $100m+ losers club, which is a still-rare group of films that opened so high and then dropped so hard that they made over $100m less on their second weekend than their first. Well, thanks to The Last Jedi, we’re going to have to open a $150m+ losers club right next door.

The $100 million+ losers club now has eight members, including The Last Jedi, Harry Potter 7.2, Batman v Superman ($166m opening weekend/$51.3m second weekend = $114.7m difference), Avengers: Age Of Ultron ($191.3m/$77.2m = $114.1m), Captain America: Civil War ($179.1m/$72.6m = $106.5m), Jurassic World ($208.8m/$106.5m), The Avengers ($207.7m/$103m = $104m) and Iron Man 3 ($174.1m/$72.5m = $102m). After that you get the "not-quite $100m" members, such as The Twilight Saga: New Moon ($142m.84m - $42.87m = $99.97m), Star Wars: The Force Awakens - $247.9m/$149.2m = $98.7m and The Dark Knight Rises ($160m - $62m = $98m). The last two Twilight films lost $98m ($141m/$43m for Breaking Dawn part II) and $97m ($138m - $41m = $97m for Breaking Dawn I respectively).

The last four "minus-$90 million" members are The Hunger Games ($152m - $58m = $94m) and Spider-Man 3 ($151m - $58m = $93m), Suicide Squad ($133m/$41m = $91m) and Rogue One: A Star Wars Story - $155m/$64m = $91m. What you’ll notice about these films is that they all posted huge opening weekends and either went on to be among the biggest grossing movies of all time or hit a wall at a total that The Last Jedi will soon surpass relatively quickly. The Last Jedi has now earned $365m and will be just under $400m domestic by the end of tomorrow. Unless it receives essentially zero uptick from the holiday season, it should end the year with over/under $465m domestic.

A gross well-and-above the $529 million domestic total of Rogue One is absolutely assured. A gross well-and-above $600m is all-but-guaranteed. Anything above that is highly dependent on the next two weeks as it does its best to take advantage of the holiday moviegoers alongside a lot of family fare. If it merely has the same Tues-Thurs uptick as Rogue One did (plus around $30m on Christmas Day), then it’ll enter its third weekend with $460m with a likely 17-day total of over/under $500m and a possible over/under $525m total as 2018 begins. Again, there is a lot of wiggle room, but most movies playing in this part of the year do better in their second Mon-Thurs chunk than their first.

The Last Jedi has already made 1.66x its opening weekend after ten days. That compares to Eragon (1.61x), Hobbit 1 (1.77x), (Hobbit 2 (1.77x) and I Am Legend (1.77x). So, no, this isn’t a Star Trek: Nemesis (1.43x after ten days, after a 76% weekend drop) situation. If it plays anything like Eragon over the next week, which is a bit optimistic, then a $700 million+ total isn’t out of the cards. Even a Nemesis-type run at this point gets it to $605m domestic. So yeah, The Last Jedi lost this weekend, but it doesn’t have to like it. The Lucasfilm sequel still has plenty of time to reassert itself before the new year begins for real on January 12, 2018.

We can debate the reasons, be it the excess kid-friendly competition, mixed word-of-mouth among the faithful, the skewed holiday calendar and/or the lack of the new-ness. Perhaps The Last Jedi is a variation on Ted 2 or Neighbors 2, whereby a sequel is viewed as disappointing for merely doing about as well as folks expected its vastly overperforming predecessor to do. Had The Force Awakens earned $650 million domestic, a $600-$700m domestic total for The Last Jedi would seem just fine. But after a $937m finish last time out, even with the expected 30% Star Wars 1 to Star Wars 2 drop (see also: The Empire Strikes Back and Attack of the Clones, The Last Jedi is finding itself on the defensive.

At the very least, the $250 million-ish budgeted sci-fi actioner has already earned $745m worldwide and should end tomorrow over/under $800m worldwide. It will thus end the year just over/under $1 billion worldwide. Oh, and sometime tomorrow, it will pass the domestic cume of Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 ($389m) to become the third-biggest domestic earner of 2017. That will be, no matter what happens next, that the top-three North American hits of the year will be Star Wars: The Force Awakens ($400m+), Wonder Woman ($413m) and Beauty and the Beast. Yes, all three of the year’s biggest movies will be female-led blockbuster fantasy movies. But, please remind us again how female-driven blockbusters are box office poison.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/24/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-drops-69-tops-100m-losers-club/#4403cba0dc05

**Peregrine**

What a world we live in, where "only" making hundreds of millions of dollars in profit is considered a disappointment that needs to be analyzed and justified.

**AllSeeingSkink**

Peregrine wrote:
What a world we live in, where "only" making hundreds of millions of dollars in profit is considered a disappointment that needs to be analyzed and justified.

It's pretty well established that hype, success of past movies and marketing can bring you in big dollars. Not saying that's the case here, for all my gripes I didn't think it was a terrible movie, but it should be analysed in the context of it being a monolithic established franchise with no small amount spent on marketing.

Afterall, we analysed and scrutinised GW's sale figures for years even though they never actually made a loss and consistently brought in $150 to $200M US per year.

**welshhoppo**

And Disney dropped a few billion on the franchise in the first place. They probably wanted the new trilogy to take back About 4 billion between the three times including the Blu Ray market.

**Miguelsan**

Peregrine wrote:
What a world we live in, where "only" making hundreds of millions of dollars in profit is considered a disappointment that needs to be analyzed and justified.

Cannot agree more.

M.

**Audustum**

I mean, it needed hundreds of millions to break even. It had about a 200 million production budget and I read you should double that to include advertising. So 400 million to break even (which it's now passed by about 350 million).

It's an expensive world to work in.