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Everything about Star Wars is contrived.

The absolute basis of drama is that it is contrived. It is specifically to set up situations of dramatic tension and excitement.

I think what you're describing is "artifice" (the "made-ness" of plot) rather than "contrivance."

What I mean by contrived is more like "forced" or "inorganic" or "unfounded" - where X (e.g., Holdo staying aboard the ship) must occur in order for Y (Holdo's kamikaze attack) to occur but the plot does not credibly account for why X occurs such that it apparently occurs, achronologically, for the sake of Y.

I take your point. Let me explain the chase scenario from my viewpoint.


Let me explain the chase scenario from my viewpoint.

The Rebel base is heavily attacked and they barely get away, consequently they are unable to call long distance for help or fully load their ships with fuel.

The Rebels escape via hyperspace and think they are safe, but almost immediately the Imperial fleet arrives behind them and attacks.

During this confused initial engagement, a lucky or cunning hit takes out the main Rebel ship's bridge, killing or wounding most of the senior officers.

Admiral Hondo, the highest ranked survivor, takes command. Hondo realises several things about their situation.

1. They have enough fuel for one jump or a significant distance of travel in normal space.
2. Clearly the Imperials can track ships through hyperspace, therefore the Rebels can't escape by jumping.
3. There is a possible sanctuary planet within reach by sub-light. This base is heavily defended and has long range communication equipment.
4. A stern chase is a long chase, and the Rebels should be capable of outpacing the Imperial fleet for long enough to reach the sanctuary planet, where they will be able to call for help and hold out until it arrives.
5. Besides, who knows what may happen? "Events, dear boy, events." If all else fails, you have to hope for good luck.

The Imperial commander's situation is as follows:

A. They know they will gradually overhaul and crush the Rebel fleet in a stern chase.
B. They only have one ship capable of tracking the Rebels.
C. If the Rebels are heading somewhere it may be useful to find out where that is. And the Rebels may get reinforcements, who will need to be dealt with.
D. Therefore they should not divide their forces, and risk losing half of them on a wild goose chase. The best strategy is to carry on as they are.

In these circumstances, the chase scenario makes perfect sense for both sides.

Why did Hondo not tell people her plan?

1. Need to know. Loose lips sink ships.
2. Perhaps she overestimated the state of morale in the Rebel fleet... or maybe she didn't think it was a crucial factor.
(C. To give the audience the same mental picture of what is going on as the Rebel fleet members.)

All in all, this may well be contrived or artificed, but it makes sense and constructs the dramatic arc of the middle of the film, allowing side quests to be interwoven into the narrative.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Everything about Star Wars is contrived.

The absolute basis of drama is that it is contrived. It is specifically to set up situations of dramatic tension and excitement.

??

Are you saying all of fiction is equally credible and satisfying because it is all fictional?

Contrived is used to describe situations that don't work in the usual remit of fiction to chain unreal events into a narrative. It means the situation did not work as written and was sort of jimmied into the story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
In the case of Holdo, I am happy to rationalise possible reasons why her plan was not explicated within the film because it enables the dramatic tension of the chase sequence to be maintained and exagerrated.

You don't think it's reasonable to expect everyone to be happy to rationalize a conceit that doesn't work at face value, do you? The tension was contrived. Usually people feel cheated when they find out they invested emotion into what is essentially an illusion.

There are so many ways that they could have kept the audience's tension without requiring her to pointlessly feth with the crew and another officer that I don't feel obliged to rationalize or excuse the film's poor choice.

I think it does work at face value. I don't care that the tension was contrived, that is the purpose of dramatic script writing.

I think the entire chase sequence works and I don't understand why people say it's a ludicrous thing that never could happen in real life. (Points to the Battle of the River Plate, the Battle of the Falklands, etc.)

I don't see how it works at face value. She had a plan. She makes her senior pilot and other officers believe there is no plan because...uh tension? Mutiny is tense? But there really was a plan all along. It makes no sense logically, and her character makes no sense after the transport reveal.

Also, no one said it wouldn't work in real life. They said it wouldn't work in Star Wars. There are pages and pages covering this. If you don't understand the reasoning, fine. Please accept that others do. You've made it plain that consistency of setting (and especially the rules governing it that lead to all the, er tension) don't matter much to you. Please accept that they matter a lot to some people.

I heard someone even cared enough about the setting to pay billions of dollars for it.

@killkrazy From my point of view as someone who's served in a navy and worked with a COC.

The Rebel base is heavily attacked and they barely get away, consequently they are unable to call long distance for help or fully load their ships with fuel.

This is where you lose me. the first thing when a ship gets to their base is they start refueling and restocking. those ships weren't used in e7 so they should have been fully fueled. It's what the real navy does, and it's what the rebellion would have learned being constantly chased.

C. If the Rebels are heading somewhere it may be useful to find out where that is. And the Rebels may get reinforcements, who will need to be dealt with.
D. Therefore they should not divide their forces, and risk losing half of them on a wild goose chase. The best strategy is to carry on as they are.

that is why calling in for more of their forces is the best strategy, calling them in to cut off the rebels

Why did Hondo not tell people her plan? 1. Need to know. Loose lips sink ships.

Again, doesn't trust Poe with the plan, but thinks he's fit to lead the rebellion after his mutiny. see my previous posts about abandoning ship. So clearly 3. she's just insane. When captains don't trust their own crew, bad things happen. they're all on the same ship, they all voluntereed and joined the cause, they're trusted to run and defend the ship, but don't need to know the mission? Nope, can't buy it, my suspension of disbelief only goes so far and that's well past the point.

allowing side quests to be interwoven into the narrative.

Interwoven? I do not think that means what you think it means


I'm not implying you're wrong about your viewpoint, just adding in mine on top of yours. It's what we've seen the whole thread, some people like the movie and others don't for various reasons.

Holdo's two big moments also feel less attached to the narrative, and more "ass-pully " because they are not set up with a Chekhov's gun.

The first inkling the audience has about Crait's existence in when it is revealed with the surprise plan. No one seems to have noticed it on a scan? No imperial thought it might be the Rebels' target? It just appears. Clearly the reason is to create tension; if the audience knew about the planet, they would figure out the plan, and it's many holes, long before the film is ready to reveal it. The audience would have enough time to think about how dumb the imperials were before the payoff, something they would be up inclined to do during the climax.

Second, the hyperram. It goes against established norms in the setting and is never mentioned as a possibility. Just a single throw away line or any action that would indicate hyperram img was a viable tactic at all would have sold the scene much more believably. Instead, we are left with Stupid Star Wars.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Holdo's two big moments also feel less attached to the narrative, and more "ass-pully " because they are not set up with a Chekhov's gun.

The first inkling the audience has about Crait's existence in when it is revealed with the surprise plan. No one seems to have noticed it on a scan? No imperial thought it might be the Rebels' target? It just appears. Clearly the reason is to create tension; if the audience knew about the planet, they would figure out the plan, and it's many holes, long before the film is ready to reveal it. The audience would have enough time to think about how dumb the imperials were before the payoff, something they would be up inclined to do during the climax.

Second, the hyperram. It goes against established norms in the setting and is never mentioned as a possibility. Just a single throw away line or any action that would indicate hyperram img was a viable tactic at all would have sold the scene much more believably. Instead, we are left with Stupid Star Wars.

For the ram, Hux looks like hes about to wet himself when he realises what Holdo is about to do. Which means that he must be known that Jumping into a vessel is very dangerous.

Why no one thought of this before no one knows, you could literally install hyperdrives into Asteroids, and then throw them at people like its Starship Troopers.

 Manchu wrote:
I think what you're describing is "artifice" (the "made-ness" of plot) rather than "contrivance."

What I mean by contrived is more like "forced" or "inorganic" or "unfounded" - where X (e.g., Holdo staying aboard the ship) must occur in order for Y (Holdo's kamikaze attack) to occur but the plot does not credibly account for why X occurs such that it apparently occurs, achronologically, for the sake of Y.

Yeah, well said (better than I was trying to articulate earlier), that's why I was comparing it to bad fan fiction. It's like they put up a list of plot points they wanted to hit, spent 5 minutes thinking of circumstances required to hit those plot points then never spent any additional time thinking over how jarring and potentially illogical those circumstances might be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
All in all, this may well be contrived or artificed,

Agree

but it makes sense

Disagree

and constructs the dramatic arc of the middle of the film,

Disagree

allowing side quests to be interwoven into the narrative.

Disagree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 welshhoppo wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Holdo's two big moments also feel less attached to the narrative, and more "ass-pully " because they are not set up with a Chekhov's gun.

The first inkling the audience has about Crait's existence in when it is revealed with the surprise plan. No one seems to have noticed it on a scan? No imperial thought it might be the Rebels' target? It just appears. Clearly the reason is to create tension; if the audience knew about the planet, they would figure out the plan, and it's many holes, long before the film is ready to reveal it. The audience would have enough time to think about how dumb the imperials were before the payoff, something they would be up inclined to do during the climax.

Second, the hyperram. It goes against established norms in the setting and is never mentioned as a possibility. Just a single throw away line or any action that would indicate hyperram img was a viable tactic at all would have sold the scene much more believably. Instead, we are left with Stupid Star Wars.

For the ram, Hux looks like hes about to wet himself when he realises what Holdo is about to do. Which means that he must be known that Jumping into a vessel is very dangerous.

Why no one thought of this before no one knows, you could literally install hyperdrives into Asteroids, and then throw them at people like its Starship Troopers.

In the prequels the Jedi ships use those ring engine things for hyperdrives that break off when the ship gets to its destination. If the Jedi just rigged those up with space junk the wars of the prequels would have been over in about 5 minutes.

 welshhoppo wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Holdo's two big moments also feel less attached to the narrative, and more "ass-pully " because they are not set up with a Chekhov's gun.

The first inkling the audience has about Crait's existence in when it is revealed with the surprise plan. No one seems to have noticed it on a scan? No imperial thought it might be the Rebels' target? It just appears. Clearly the reason is to create tension; if the audience knew about the planet, they would figure out the plan, and it's many holes, long before the film is ready to reveal it. The audience would have enough time to think about how dumb the imperials were before the payoff, something they would be up inclined to do during the climax.

Second, the hyperram. It goes against established norms in the setting and is never mentioned as a possibility. Just a single throw away line or any action that would indicate hyperram img was a viable tactic at all would have sold the scene much more believably. Instead, we are left with Stupid Star Wars.

For the ram, Hux looks like hes about to wet himself when he realises what Holdo is about to do. Which means that he must be known that Jumping into a vessel is very dangerous.

Why no one thought of this before no one knows, you could literally install hyperdrives into Asteroids, and then throw them at people like its Starship Troopers.

For the first, that was Hux reacting to the action while it was happening. Nowhere in the whole franchise is it mentioned as a possibility. It should have been a looming, dreadful possibility. "They can track us? We'll never escape! Unless someone were to...but no, I can't ask that of anyone."
For the second, yep. Stupid Star Wars.

Not to mention that the hyperram is inconsistent even in-universe, as in Rogue One we see some of the rebel fleet's ships try to get away in hyperspace and just crash into the Imperial ships without any significant damage to the latter.

Now suddenly a single cruiser takes out a capital ship? Nahhh.

But cool visuals though.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
In the case of Holdo, I am happy to rationalise possible reasons why her plan was not explicated within the film because it enables the dramatic tension of the chase sequence to be maintained and exagerrated.

I think the entire chase sequence works and I don't understand why people say it's a ludicrous thing that never could happen in real life. (Points to the Battle of the River Plate, the Battle of the Falklands, etc.)

very very differnt things

the Battle of the River Plate is a running battle between warships where damage is inflicted on both sides and its a tense battle between a single pocket battleship and less powerful but more numerous cruisers.

The chase with the ship of fools has none of this - the rebels amble along in their apparently invulnerable cruise, the imperials lob the odd ineffectual shot at the cruiser. Its so very dull. The tension is to me and others Iw atched with not only negliable but the whole scene is laughable.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Admiral Hondo, the highest ranked survivor, takes command. Hondo realises several things about their situation.

Hondo?

 Kilkrazy wrote:

4. A stern chase is a long chase, and the Rebels should be capable of outpacing the Imperial fleet for long enough to reach the sanctuary planet, where they will be able to call for help and hold out until it arrives.

A chase that is unrelenting does not need to be long.

And who are they going to call for help?

Both those points are covered in the film.

Hux and Holdo (?) agree that the Rebel fleet is fast enough to keep at extreme range, but does not have enough fuel to outrun the Imperials and eventually will halt and be destroyed. This is exactly what happens.

The objective of the Rebels is to get to a long range transmitter to call for help from the outer rim systems (or some such SW style nomenclature.) They achieve this, but no help comes.


Let me give you my rope analogy.

The narrative of a film is woven together rather like the core of a rope. It contains many small threads which wind around and join each other, leading from one to the next, and form a whole which carries the user on a journey (e.g. down a cliff. or across a river.)

Just as in a rope there cqn be individual flaws in some of the threads and splices, which don't matter when you look at the whole, a film may contain individual plot holes, lines of bad dialogue or dodgy edits.

The difference in this film is that some people don't like the journey on which it takes the viewer, and they are looking very carefully at all the individual threads to pick nits in them, which is an easy task when you concentrate on it.

I like the film's journey, and I don't care if there are a few plot holes along the way.

I must concede that the rope analogy is apt. It isn't just that Poe's prank was gauche. It isn't just that space bombers are silly. It's not just that the dynamics of the chase are dodgy. It isn't just that Leia is in the wrong vis a vis Poe. It isn't just that "Vice Admiral" Holdo is dressed and coiffured strangely for a military leader. It isn't just that she is rather poor in said capacity. It isn't just that Poe's mutiny is contrived in the sense I discussed. It isn't just that the same can justly describe Holdo's intention to remain aboard the doomed vessel. It isn't just that the hyperram tactic raises serious questions as to all other spacebourne actions we have witnessed in the series. It isn't just that salvation happens to appear outside a port window in the form of an unlooked for sanctuary planet. But all of these strands entwined together form a shabby cord that cannot survive a stout heave.

 Manchu wrote:
I must concede that the rope analogy is apt. It isn't just that Poe's prank was gauche. It isn't just that space bombers are silly. It's not just that the dynamics of the chase are dodgy. It isn't just that Leia is in the wrong vis a vis Poe. It isn't just that "Vice Admiral" Holdo is dressed and coiffured strangely for a military leader. It isn't just that she is rather poor in said capacity. It isn't just that Poe's mutiny is contrived in the sense I discussed. It isn't just that the same can justly describe Holdo's intention to remain aboard the doomed vessel. It isn't just that the hyperram tactic raises serious questions as to all other spacebourne actions we have witnessed in the series. It isn't just that salvation happens to appear outside a port window in the form of an unlooked for sanctuary planet. But all of these strands entwined together form a shabby cord that cannot survive a stout heave.

Agreed for me - almost every strand was rotten and failing - put them together and it unravels as you watch - in this case slowly and tediously.

Yeah, as I said a couple of pages back it's no single issue with TLJ for me, it's a cascade of many issues, some big and some small. Arguing individual issues misses the point of the shear volume of issues. Like I mentioned the dreadnought's AA in a long list of issues with the film and I accept it may not be an issue with some other folks and it's not even a big issue for me (it's probably my engineering background that grasped on to it as being absurd how you could build a ship that is basically like building a whole city and not having it absolutely bristling with guns of all sizes) BUT we end up arguing about that 1 issue and missing the point of it being such a long list of different issues.

I can pick flaws out of some of my favourite movies but it doesn't stop me enjoying them, TLJ has so many broken strands on its rope that it's added to the (relatively short) list of Star Wars movies I don't have an interest in seeing again.

Manchu wrote:I must concede that the rope analogy is apt. It isn't just that Poe's prank was gauche. It isn't just that space bombers are silly. It's not just that the dynamics of the chase are dodgy. It isn't just that Leia is in the wrong vis a vis Poe. It isn't just that "Vice Admiral" Holdo is dressed and coiffured strangely for a military leader. It isn't just that she is rather poor in said capacity. It isn't just that Poe's mutiny is contrived in the sense I discussed. It isn't just that the same can justly describe Holdo's intention to remain aboard the doomed vessel. It isn't just that the hyperram tactic raises serious questions as to all other spacebourne actions we have witnessed in the series. It isn't just that salvation happens to appear outside a port window in the form of an unlooked for sanctuary planet. But all of these strands entwined together form a shabby cord that cannot survive a stout heave.

Both Kilkrazy and Manchu do well with the rope analogy.

Kilkrazy is right in that a rope can survive with some broken strands, and that films we say are good can still have these broken strands.
Manchu I agree with in that The Last Jedi has so many broken strands, the rope simply can't hold anything. If any of these was a single issue, and the rest of the film was perfect, the rope would hold. It's just the multitude of problems people have that make it so their rope won't hold.

I also like this analogy and will file it away for future theft use

The rope analogy is a good one.

But as people say, the movie's constituent threads are each rotten in their own way, and the only real one that holds up to any weight at all is the Rey-Kylo dynamic...

... which is all I really wanted to see in this film anyways. Cut Snoke's death, cut the chase scene with the rebels, cut casino world, and you end up with like a 45-minute short showing Kylo and Rey verbally and mentally ratcheting up the tension as Rey trains herself because Luke can't be assed.

EDIT:
Like, literally, just Ctrl + A the script, hit Delete, and then write "try harder" and send it to a real writer. That probably would've made a better movie.

The Kylo-Ren dynamic was one of the well handled things (though still not a huge fan of their characters individually speaking).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
EDIT:
Like, literally, just Ctrl + A the script, hit Delete, and then write "try harder" and send it to a real writer. That probably would've made a better movie.

I'm not a very creative writer but I've been amazed how many cool concepts I've read from fans on how they think this movie should have been handled. From complete rewrites to just cleaning up a lot of the bad concepts to get a similar end result with less illogical and messy junk in the middle.

When random fans can come up with better concepts than an actual professional writing team and director it's not a great sign. Normally what fans write is mostly junk

There are a lot more SW films to come. Perhaps some of the fanfic ideas will get made.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There are a lot more SW films to come. Perhaps some of the fanfic ideas will get made.

The next film should be Star Wars Episode VIII: The Fanfic. I would be very happy if Disney de-canonized Episode VIII and went so far as to ignore its existence and move on to a real, actually good, Episode VIII.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There are a lot more SW films to come. Perhaps some of the fanfic ideas will get made.

The next film should be Star Wars Episode VIII: The Fanfic. I would be very happy if Disney de-canonized Episode VIII and went so far as to ignore its existence and move on to a real, actually good, Episode VIII.

One of the main disappointing things about TLJ isn't that it was a bad movie in and of itself but rather that it feels like it screwed over the series for future movies. I'm not one of those "it destroyed my childhood" loons (not only since I didn't see the OT until my late teens) but I feel like TLJ has made life harder for future Star Wars unless they just throw out a lot of the junk it raised.

Right, like I said, throw it out.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There are a lot more SW films to come. Perhaps some of the fanfic ideas will get made.

The next film should be Star Wars Episode VIII: The Fanfic. I would be very happy if Disney de-canonized Episode VIII and went so far as to ignore its existence and move on to a real, actually good, Episode VIII.

Well, with JJ at the helm, he could do for SW what he did for Star Trek. Time travel reboot!

Have Rey find out some new force projection power to not only project across space, but also time. She goes back and kills Palpatine before the Battle of Naboo. Anakin is not found by the Jedi and the Galactic Civil war never happens. But in an twist, the Republic still becomes a dictatorship and builds a Death Star to hold power, leading to a group of Jedi fighting against the Republic. Anakin finds his way into the conflict (as an adult now, with more maturity and without a lifetime of being told he is "the chosen one"). Anakin becomes the true hero that we all thought he was when Obi-wan talked about him to Luke.

Sound ridiculous? It should. This is what you are asking for if you want VIII "de-canonized". Why not de-canonize the Prequels while we are at it? At this point, time travel is the only way to de-canonize movies.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There are a lot more SW films to come. Perhaps some of the fanfic ideas will get made.

The next film should be Star Wars Episode VIII: The Fanfic. I would be very happy if Disney de-canonized Episode VIII and went so far as to ignore its existence and move on to a real, actually good, Episode VIII.

Well, with JJ at the helm, he could do for SW what he did for Star Trek. Time travel reboot!

Have Rey find out some new force projection power to not only project across space, but also time. She goes back and kills Palpatine before the Battle of Naboo. Anakin is not found by the Jedi and the Galactic Civil war never happens. But in an twist, the Republic still becomes a dictatorship and builds a Death Star to hold power, leading to a group of Jedi fighting against the Republic. Anakin finds his way into the conflict (as an adult now, with more maturity and without a lifetime of being told he is "the chosen one"). Anakin becomes the true hero that we all thought he was when Obi-wan talked about him to Luke.

Sound ridiculous? It should. This is what you are asking for if you want VIII "de-canonized". Why not de-canonize the Prequels while we are at it? At this point, time travel is the only way to de-canonize movies.

-

No it's not. You could simply say "Oopsie, I done goofed, here's the real Episode VIII."

That said...

What you wrote sounds way more fething badass than this episode 8. Especially if Battle Droids stay involved somehow - in fact, maybe the Evil Empire in your setting could use Battle Droids instead of Storm Troopers, and has the power and money to make them not "comedy droids" while still having them aim badly.

Then Anakin can struggle with the Order in the Galaxy (dark side) vs. Doing What's Right (light side) that he seems to struggle with, and with good characterization, could become a villain (or hero, as you say!) as badass as Darth Vader.

When you "zoom out" or "blur your vision" as it were, when looking at TFA and TLJ, the element that stands out is the contrast between Rey and Kylo Ren.

Ben Solo is a space prince. His parents and uncle are the Galactic Heroes. Of course he will do great things! But that doesn't work out and his response is to still try to be great, except by emulating the worst role model in his family tree.

And then we have Rey, who is Just Some Girl except she is also The Chosen One. The contradiction there doesn't phase her too much at first. She just wishes she had a mom and a dad and an uncle; i.e., a past.

Both of these characters can't get over the past, sort of like the state of the Star Wars brand itself. Kylo Ren is like the fans for whom older SW content will always be the center of their universes. And Rey is like the newcomers, who don't have a connection to that experience but still want to be a part of this multi-generational SW phenomenon.

This is really a problem. SW shouldn't be "about SW" - but the brand is so massive, it's hard to figure out how it can escape its own gravity and strike out into new territory.

I think these films will be about as relevant in the US twenty five years from now as they are in China today.

 Galef wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There are a lot more SW films to come. Perhaps some of the fanfic ideas will get made.

The next film should be Star Wars Episode VIII: The Fanfic. I would be very happy if Disney de-canonized Episode VIII and went so far as to ignore its existence and move on to a real, actually good, Episode VIII.

Well, with JJ at the helm, he could do for SW what he did for Star Trek. Time travel reboot!

Have Rey find out some new force projection power to not only project across space, but also time. She goes back and kills Palpatine before the Battle of Naboo. Anakin is not found by the Jedi and the Galactic Civil war never happens. But in an twist, the Republic still becomes a dictatorship and builds a Death Star to hold power, leading to a group of Jedi fighting against the Republic. Anakin finds his way into the conflict (as an adult now, with more maturity and without a lifetime of being told he is "the chosen one"). Anakin becomes the true hero that we all thought he was when Obi-wan talked about him to Luke.

Sound ridiculous? It should. This is what you are asking for if you want VIII "de-canonized". Why not de-canonize the Prequels while we are at it? At this point, time travel is the only way to de-canonize movies.

-

I know you're kidding, but I would love for them to decanonize everything but the OT. Force-projected time shenanigans sound risky, but might be the only way to save the period between 50 BBY to 50 ABY. They would be hard pressed to make it worse.


Really, I just want them to pick some new time period and give us adventure stories about wandering Jedi or artifact smugglers of the Whills or...something.

Here you go, bud:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tales_of_the_Jedi

@Manchu. Was that "TLJ is no Transformers 5" burn come from a review or did you come up with that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Here you go, bud:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tales_of_the_Jedi

Thanks. I've still got a bunch of the old EU that I haven't read. Were these tales any good? If so, I'm in.

Also, were any of the KOTOR novels worth reading? I was out before those hit the shelves.