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 Elbows wrote:
I have to agree that the Iyanden Craftworld trait is pretty pants...as it only buffs using other larger units.

This is what people kept whining about with Age of Sigmar and Battleshock not really being a perceived issue for Stormcast.

Until y'know, they realized that losing a 2-3 Wound model to Battleshock is a bit nastier than losing a bunch of little ones to the same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
I think that's what everybody wants. A strong, competent codex featuring neither: useless units, or broken/uber units.

Yet they'll still find a way to complain if it doesn't feature things their way.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I have to agree that the Iyanden Craftworld trait is pretty pants...as it only buffs using other larger units.

This is what people kept whining about with Age of Sigmar and Battleshock not really being a perceived issue for Stormcast.

Until y'know, they realized that losing a 2-3 Wound model to Battleshock is a bit nastier than losing a bunch of little ones to the same thing.

But if you think it through, you'll see that WG are ld9 and almost always taken in units of 5. So you'd need to lose 4 models before the last model is even at risk of running on a 6.
So losing a 2-3 wound model was already so incredible rare, and in this particular case, you only lose 1 model regardless of use the Iyanden trait or not.

So the trait for Iyanden, the CW most famous for Wraith constructs, benefits units OTHER than Wraith-constructs. It's pants

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 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I have to agree that the Iyanden Craftworld trait is pretty pants...as it only buffs using other larger units.

This is what people kept whining about with Age of Sigmar and Battleshock not really being a perceived issue for Stormcast.

Until y'know, they realized that losing a 2-3 Wound model to Battleshock is a bit nastier than losing a bunch of little ones to the same thing.

But if you think it through, you'll see that WG are ld9 and almost always taken in units of 5. So you'd need to lose 4 models before the last model is even at risk of running on a 6.
So losing a 2-3 wound model was already so incredible rare, and in this particular case, you only lose 1 model regardless of use the Iyanden trait or not.

So the trait for Iyanden, the CW most famous for Wraith constructs, benefits units OTHER than Wraith-constructs. It's pants

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And what happens if you lose Wraithguard while your opponent has spent some time layering on LD reductions?

I kept thinking this same thing with regards to Stormcast early on. IF someone finds a way to throw on the Mortal Wounds and IF they have things which reduce your Leadership--it can get nasty quick for high wound, low-ish model count units.

Mind you--I'm not saying "SHUT UP AND ENJOY IT!". I'm saying that as codices come out, we're going to see some expanding of game mechanics. What seems pants now might have a use later on.

Ulthwe time https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/17/craftworld-focus-ulthwe-oct-17gw-homepage-post-3/

Every rule is useful are some point in the game, even Soulblaze in 7th "could" finish off a unit. But when a rule is ONLY useful given an ideal situation that doesn't come up often, it by default is not a great rule.

What makes it worse is that the Iyanden trait is actually a decent rule....just for Guardians and Tanks, not as much for Wraiths. So it will encourage "Iyanden" lists that don't actually look like "Iyanden" lists

Regarding the Ulthwe faction focus: Why is there no "Webway Assualt"?

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Okay, so here we have apparent confirmation that Attributes apply to even flyers, which is a first.

Ulthwe gets the reliable Iron Hands tactic. 6+ FNP on everything. And a stratagem that gives a Guardian unit +1 to hit for a phase. Craftworlds in general have a stratagem to give Guardians a 4++ for a shooting phase. Eldrad is cheaper and Mind War is back, as essentially a targeted Smite. Guardians' price is unchanged.

The article talks like this Attribute is especially great for Guardians but of course where it's really welcome is on multi-wound units that now do a lot better in the face of multi-damage weaponry. This is probably what Iyanden should have gotten. Certainly you'd rather have this than Iyanden's Attribute on Wraithlords and Wraithknights, and obviously on Wraithguard. The Attribute is also great on Jetbikes and Shining Spears, since it makes them a lot more resilient in the face of overcharged plasma. The rest doesn't seem too impressive, though cheaper Eldrad is nice.

It's not clear if the Attribute stacks with Fortune, since this is not an ability that a model has. Sort of weird if it doesn't, since there's anti-synergy with Farseers there.

Mind war is set out to be one of the most top tier powers in the game thanks to it now dealing mortal wounds and being able to outright ignore character screening.

Also, plastic Eldrad incoming!

 Superscope wrote:
Mind war is set out to be one of the most top tier powers in the game thanks to it now dealing mortal wounds and being able to outright ignore character screening.

Almost every psychic discipline, and I believe every codex psychic discipline, has a similar sort of power.

A bit disappointed in the ulthwe trait to be honest, I was expecting maybe something to do with psychers or black guardians rather than just a 6+ FNP, the black guardian strategem is nice but that means one squad of guardians are only really black guardians per turn at the cost of CPs.

 Galef wrote:

Regarding the Ulthwe faction focus: Why is there no "Webway Assualt"?

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They didn't mention it in the article, but on the facebook page someone asked about the webway assault. The response from the warhammer team was "We're on Twitch talking about the Codex on Friday, with some exclusive new content about the Codex (quite possibly including Webway portal)."

While this is not a definitive "yes" it does seem hopeful. If they say this and it turns out there's no webway assault, I would consider it a real d**k move uncharacteristic of what I've experienced from the online team in the past year.

By that preview the new Mind War can only target Characters. So much for stripping away a key special weapons trooper or heavy weapons team...If faced with an infantry squad, then it also means it can't take out the squad leader since those aren't Characters. While obviously designed to melt Characters, it would have been nice for this power to still be used against general targets.


These Craftworld Attributes are just odd as in not what one might intuitively expect for their theme. Ulthwe getting a resilience one (even if it is handwaved away as prescience) buffing even vehicles and wraith constructs, while Iyanden gets a morale one.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Superscope wrote:
Mind war is set out to be one of the most top tier powers in the game thanks to it now dealing mortal wounds and being able to outright ignore character screening.

Almost every psychic discipline, and I believe every codex psychic discipline, has a similar sort of power.

Most of them debuff or deal a mortal wound in a radius though. Mind war just selects a character and melts them from the inside with ALOT of mortal wounds. Eldrad + Mind war = Fried support character.

Lets not forget you got many ways to buff the amount of mortal wounds that character will take as well. Hemlock + Horrify is -3 off the bat. Only high end characters will be walking away alive.

6+ special save is nice for a freebie, spesh as it works against Mortal Wounds.

As for the Celestial Shield.....do stuff like War Walker, Vypers etc have the 'Guardian' keyword?

A large price cut on Eldrad + new powers might make him pretty good.
Mind war is nice, and with some luck the harlies and DE codex will have more Ld debuffs (and additional ld-based attacks).

But when I hear that a 6+ FNP is statistically better on larger units, it makes me worried about the designers' understanding of the game.

Mind War is a terrible Psychic power. To be really effective you need to build a significant portion of your list around it and get everything where you want it to be, and last editions Freakshow list proved that if you want Ld debuff and attack tactics to work, you need to have multiple sources for both the debuff and attack. I see no reason at all why you would ever take this over Guide, Doom or Fortune, all vastly more useful and easier to cast abilities.

 Superscope wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Superscope wrote:
Mind war is set out to be one of the most top tier powers in the game thanks to it now dealing mortal wounds and being able to outright ignore character screening.

Almost every psychic discipline, and I believe every codex psychic discipline, has a similar sort of power.

Most of them debuff or deal a mortal wound in a radius though. Mind war just selects a character and melts them from the inside with ALOT of mortal wounds. Eldrad + Mind war = Fried support character.

Lets not forget you got many ways to buff the amount of mortal wounds that character will take as well. Hemlock + Horrify is -3 off the bat. Only high end characters will be walking away alive.

No, most psychic disciplines have a very similar sort of targeted Smite. Chaos has Infernal Gaze, which is WC5 and averages 1.5 mortal wounds on any target, including characters. Space Marines have a very similar-to-MW WC6 power that deals d3 mortal wounds if you win the roll-off and 1 if you tie. Imperial Guard have Psychic Maelstrom, which is WC7 and averages 1.77 mortal wounds.

It's true that Eldar have some ways to buff the result. Hemlocks are good. It is hard to believe that it will make sense to bring Horrify (which is only -1 to Ld), unless you're planning on using a Spiritseer or Warlock for Smite spam and bring it along just in case. Of course, SMs can do something similar with their power. Mind War only expects ~1 mortal wound against an equal Ld target and 1.55 against a target with 1 less Ld. It's a little better than the similar SM power except against high-Ld targets. You need to be targeting something with 2 less Ld before it's better than what an Astropath can do.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As for the Celestial Shield.....do stuff like War Walker, Vypers etc have the 'Guardian' keyword?

Not currently on the Index. Not even the Windrider or support weapon batteries.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
6+ special save is nice for a freebie, spesh as it works against Mortal Wounds.

As for the Celestial Shield.....do stuff like War Walker, Vypers etc have the 'Guardian' keyword?

No, infact Guardian on it's own isn't a keyword in the index, you get Guardian Defender and Storm Guardian.

Awwwww.

Nobody will stop the mighty GW's copy and paste!!! ...
guys as soon as I start thinking that gw's game developers are becoming better than a bunch of monkeys they do something to demostrate it's bs....
yanden best unit wraithguard...sinergy of this unit with their trait...0 , sinergy with ulthue' trait much much better
of course exactly the other way around for ulthue' guardians.
their brain is completely fried

To be fair, the Iyanden Attribute isn't actually useful for Guardians given what we've seen so far -- this article seems to make clear that they didn't go down in points, so it's not like you're going to deploy 20 of them on the table. Mostly the Iyanden one just seems pretty bad compared to Ulthwe. I can't actually come up with a real unit that I'd want to use which the Iyanden Attribute is better for, other than the ones that the Ulthwe one just doesn't work with, like Hemlocks (of course, the Iyanden Attribute does very little for them anyway).

I think the curious thing is that Iyanden's trait is such a good buff to vehicles and flyers and large squads...so while it helps Wraithlords and Wraithknights it doesn't feel very fluffy at all.

6+ feel no paint for Ulthwe is pretty damn strong, but again I see no fluff behind it at all (our Farseers told us to duck at the last minute? I guess...).

As mentioned this is unfortunately very copy/paste and I'm not seeing a ton of logic behind it. It's nice that they'll be more potent than the rather weak Index, but I'd trade all the power for more thematic rules.

 Marfuzzo wrote:
Nobody will stop the mighty GW's copy and paste!!! ...
guys as soon as I start thinking that gw's game developers are becoming better than a bunch of monkeys they do something to demostrate it's bs....
yanden best unit wraithguard...sinergy of this unit with their trait...0 , sinergy with ulthue' trai much much better
of course exactly the other way around for ulthue' guardians.
their brain is completely fried

The use for Wraithguard is it gives better incentive to go above 5 members in a unit, which is a plus when Iyanden fluff encourages the idea of running an army where your spiritseer is the only non-wraith model on the board.

Dionysodorus wrote:
To be fair, the Iyanden Attribute isn't actually useful for Guardians given what we've seen so far -- this article seems to make clear that they didn't go down in points, so it's not like you're going to deploy 20 of them on the table. Mostly the Iyanden one just seems pretty bad compared to Ulthwe. I can't actually come up with a real unit that I'd want to use which the Iyanden Attribute is better for, other than the ones that the Ulthwe one just doesn't work with, like Hemlocks (of course, the Iyanden Attribute does very little for them anyway).

Speak for you
Actually in my latest games I fielded always a unit of 20... and it went always quite good creating a nice bubble antideep strike, and with two eldar missile luncher + shuriken a nice volume of fire as well.
but in almost all the matches I spent 2 cps to autopass a morale check...with that trait I wouldn't, so I keep thinking that the yanden one guardians wise is much much better

changemod wrote:
The use for Wraithguard is it gives better incentive to go above 5 members in a unit, which is a plus when Iyanden fluff encourages the idea of running an army where your spiritseer is the only non-wraith model on the board.

Considering only 6 WG fit into a Serpent, the Iyanden trait does nothing to incentivize players to take more than the minimum unit. M5" and short range guns pretty much requires a transport. So again, Iyanden trait has little to no synergy with Wraiths.

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 Galef wrote:

changemod wrote:
The use for Wraithguard is it gives better incentive to go above 5 members in a unit, which is a plus when Iyanden fluff encourages the idea of running an army where your spiritseer is the only non-wraith model on the board.

Considering only 6 WG fit into a Serpent, the Iyanden trait does nothing to incentivize players to take more than the minimum unit. M5" and short range guns pretty much requires a transport. So again, Iyanden trait has little to no synergy with Wraiths.

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Well, speak for yourself. I'm aware of the limitation, but I'd not be spamming transports if I did a wraith theme list. They seem very out of theme and severely cut down your model count.

changemod wrote:

 Marfuzzo wrote:
Nobody will stop the mighty GW's copy and paste!!! ...
guys as soon as I start thinking that gw's game developers are becoming better than a bunch of monkeys they do something to demostrate it's bs....
yanden best unit wraithguard...sinergy of this unit with their trait...0 , sinergy with ulthue' trai much much better
of course exactly the other way around for ulthue' guardians.
their brain is completely fried

The use for Wraithguard is it gives better incentive to go above 5 members in a unit, which is a plus when Iyanden fluff encourages the idea of running an army where your spiritseer is the only non-wraith model on the board.

The Ulthwe Attribute is almost always going to be a lot better for a 10-man WG unit even in pretty ideal circumstances for the Iyanden one. The Iyanden Attribute averages 0.167 fewer lost WG if you've already lost 5, 0.5 fewer if you've lost 6, 0.83 fewer if 7, 0.67 fewer if 8, and no fewer if 9 or 10. But of course the Ulthwe Attribute means that when you otherwise would have lost 6 Wraithguard to enemy action, you've probably only lost 5 instead (unless you're taking, like, volcano cannon shots). And so where the Iyanden unit would have lost 6 and then expects to lose another 0.5 to morale, the Ulthwe unit has only lost 5 and then expects to lose another 0.5 to morale.

And of course if your 10-man WG unit is taking 5+ casualties in a single turn you probably have bigger problems than one additional model running away.

So, right now we're looking at another copy/paste codex without a whole lot of regard for flavour and some real underwhelming stuff popping out so far.

Looks a lot less IG and a lot more Admech so far.

btw since we understood it's gonna be a copy and paste in any case what do you bet for the rest?
I'd say
saim-han: white scars/black templars
biel tan: the one saim-han doesn't get
alaitoc: raven guard

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It depends on whether or not they kept the old metal molds.

Those resin channels will NOT work with pewter and vice versa (which is why they didn't automatically switch everything to finecast).

If they're just breaking out the old molds, we might be seeing the first Made To Order finecast models.

Channels have nothing to do with it. It's the type of mold rubber and more then anything metal is spin cast while resin is gravity poured.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Guys, it costs almost nothing to make a new mold for metal models, as long as they still have the masters.

+1 Metal is also cheap now.