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If it's a custom Chapter, then them switching chapter tactics is their perogative. The Chapter only exists in their head cannon.

It gets a bit weirder if they have Ultramarines on the board and "today they are Space Wolves."

You can't fault them for wanting to be competitive.
You can fault them for being confusing.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I'm still waiting to see if there is a "Webway" stratagem that allows a unit to 'deepstrike'. If it exists, I'll breathe a sigh of relief.

Consider the idea of Banshees in Wave Serpents for Saim Hann. The average charge distance with a reroll is nearly 9". Banshees get a 3" disembark, an 8" move and +3" on their charge move. That gives them an average threat range of 23" from the position of their Serpent at the start of the turn. Chuck in Jain Zar to lead them and negate Overwatch and you have a unit that can be deep in your opponent's deployment zone in T2 or jump on any unit that moves out of your opponents deployment zone on T1. Who needs Webway portals?

I was thinking more for Jetbikes so the fragile things don't have to be deployed on the board and be blasted away in the games they don't go first. The core of my army has always been Jetbikes since I started Eldar in 4th edition.
Without some sort of deployment shenanigans or a DRAMATIC price decrease (like 20ppm max even with weapon upgrade) they just cannot compete in this meta.
I loved dropping in Black Guardian Windriders at the end of 7th.

-

And why ware ups to you? Fluff be damned. I spent a lot of time painting building toy soldiers. Does not bother me one bit to change allegiance for better play. White scars can be black/red/blue. Makes no difference when you line up vs someone and they don’t get to have their fluffy Battle vs getting to play at all.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
See, it's working already.

And yeah, if someone has a nice army of one chapter of space marines, but today they are using the rules for a different chapter because it has better rules for the units they brought... yeah, I think that tells you something about that player.

So... your answer would be that someone would need to buy and paint 2000 points of space marines and paint them blue to play ultramarines... but if they wanted to play a game as ravenwing they would have to buy a separate 2000 points of identical space marines, but paint them black?

Wow. GW must -love- you.

Considering Ravenwing are primarily Bikers and Ultramarines don't really help Bikers...that'd be a really weird thing.
Or did you mean Raven Guard?

In any regards, there's a bit of truth to what he's said. There has been trends over the years with a certain kind of player that builds a Marine army and hopscotches from book to book based upon which book gives them the best bonuses.

And whats the problem with that? Why we bash people for trying to be competitive picking the best totally arbitrary Rule GW just decide that edition to give to a random paint scheme they have choosen that is "fluffy"? (And as many people have seen, what GW think is fluffy and what other people thinks is fluffy can change)

As others have pointed out, one can arguee about "confusion". But if someone say "Ey, my Iron Hands don't use the Iron Hand bonus of a 6++, they use the Ravenguard One). Whats exactly the confusion with that? At the end of the day this just discourage using the official paint jobs.
"Man, I really like the Crimson Fists paint scheme... but well, that will arbitrarely fixed me to whatever GW want the rules of that subfaction to be"

 Galas wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
See, it's working already.

And yeah, if someone has a nice army of one chapter of space marines, but today they are using the rules for a different chapter because it has better rules for the units they brought... yeah, I think that tells you something about that player.

So... your answer would be that someone would need to buy and paint 2000 points of space marines and paint them blue to play ultramarines... but if they wanted to play a game as ravenwing they would have to buy a separate 2000 points of identical space marines, but paint them black?

Wow. GW must -love- you.

Considering Ravenwing are primarily Bikers and Ultramarines don't really help Bikers...that'd be a really weird thing.
Or did you mean Raven Guard?

In any regards, there's a bit of truth to what he's said. There has been trends over the years with a certain kind of player that builds a Marine army and hopscotches from book to book based upon which book gives them the best bonuses.

And whats the problem with that? Why we bash people for trying to be competitive picking the best totally arbitrary Rule GW just decide that edition to give to a random paint scheme they have choosen that is "fluffy"? (And as many people have seen, what GW think is fluffy and what other people thinks is fluffy can change)

If you want to be disingenuous here, that's your perogative. It's not exactly a "random paint scheme" in regards to the "Big Names" for the Marines book.

As others have pointed out, one can arguee about "confusion". But if someone say "Ey, my Iron Hands don't use the Iron Hand bonus of a 6++, they use the Ravenguard One). Whats exactly the confusion with that?

The "confusion" is that you painted them and presumably even went out of your way to do iconography enough to show them to be Iron Hands. If someone sees that, they're going to immediately be able to identify it as "Oh he'll have FNPs".

Except then you throw at them "Nah, they're really Raven Guard".

It's one thing entirely for you to have created a scratch Chapter and play around with their parentage based on power levels--people might still grumble at you or tease you about being a powergamer, but it's the whole reason why they have encouraged you to make your own Chapters in the past.
Raven Guard are Raven Guard and Iron Hands are Iron Hands. If you don't like how your Iron Hands are playing this edition, make a slight effort and rejig parts of the paint scheme to match Raven Guard or one of their Successors--or rejig your paint scheme and make your own Chapter.

 Galas wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
See, it's working already.

And yeah, if someone has a nice army of one chapter of space marines, but today they are using the rules for a different chapter because it has better rules for the units they brought... yeah, I think that tells you something about that player.

So... your answer would be that someone would need to buy and paint 2000 points of space marines and paint them blue to play ultramarines... but if they wanted to play a game as ravenwing they would have to buy a separate 2000 points of identical space marines, but paint them black?

Wow. GW must -love- you.

Considering Ravenwing are primarily Bikers and Ultramarines don't really help Bikers...that'd be a really weird thing.
Or did you mean Raven Guard?

In any regards, there's a bit of truth to what he's said. There has been trends over the years with a certain kind of player that builds a Marine army and hopscotches from book to book based upon which book gives them the best bonuses.

And whats the problem with that? Why we bash people for trying to be competitive picking the best totally arbitrary Rule GW just decide that edition to give to a random paint scheme they have choosen that is "fluffy"? (And as many people have seen, what GW think is fluffy and what other people thinks is fluffy can change)

As others have pointed out, one can arguee about "confusion". But if someone say "Ey, my Iron Hands don't use the Iron Hand bonus of a 6++, they use the Ravenguard One). Whats exactly the confusion with that? At the end of the day this just discourage using the official paint jobs.
"Man, I really like the Crimson Fists paint scheme... but well, that will arbitrarely fixed me to whatever GW want the rules of that subfaction to be"

I never said anyone needed to do anything. But some people have an ultramarine army because they like ultramarines. Not because ultramarines have the rules they want. If they want to use lots of bikes in one game, then they use lots of ultramarine bikes, and the ultramarines don't suddenly become some other chapter to get better rules. Other people just view the rules as just rules and their chapter is whatever chapter gives them the rules they want that game. It seems clear to me that those are two different kinds of gamers. Nothing wrong with either one, but obviously it says something about them.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
And why ware ups to you? Fluff be damned. I spent a lot of time painting building toy soldiers. Does not bother me one bit to change allegiance for better play. White scars can be black/red/blue. Makes no difference when you line up vs someone and they don’t get to have their fluffy Battle vs getting to play at all.

Let's be honest:
It's not something that is really going to be pressed on the issue in a gaming club. Not often.

Not unless you really have made a habit of doing it in the past and/or are someone that people dislike for other reasons.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I'm still waiting to see if there is a "Webway" stratagem that allows a unit to 'deepstrike'. If it exists, I'll breathe a sigh of relief.

Consider the idea of Banshees in Wave Serpents for Saim Hann. The average charge distance with a reroll is nearly 9". Banshees get a 3" disembark, an 8" move and +3" on their charge move. That gives them an average threat range of 23" from the position of their Serpent at the start of the turn. Chuck in Jain Zar to lead them and negate Overwatch and you have a unit that can be deep in your opponent's deployment zone in T2 or jump on any unit that moves out of your opponents deployment zone on T1. Who needs Webway portals?

You wouldn't want to use such a stratagem for CC units anyway, except possibly with Saim-Hann. Deep-striking CC is generally bad because you need to make a 9" charge. Where it would be great is for shooty units that otherwise need transports, like Guardians. Guardians have very efficient shooting at 12", but every at-most-96 point squad needs a 140 point Serpent to accomplish anything. A deep strike stratagem would let you drop 20 Guardians at their optimal range, and it's a big unit so benefits a great deal from psychic powers, other stratagems, and possibly Soulburst.

It's the Raven Guard infiltration stratagem which is much better for CC units, because if you get first turn you can know when you deploy the unit 9" away that you'll get to move and charge before your opponent can react. This one doesn't strike me as great for Eldar; it's not like we have anything close to as killy as Berzerkers to use with it. You could use a big unit of Wraithguard but they'd just get screened, and if you don't get first turn then they're kind of wasted, so you probably only want to gamble with units that can otherwise hop into a Serpent on turn 1.

Bharring wrote:
The Biel-Tan reroll is more like an IG regiment that got reroll 1s on bolters.

More like re-roll 1s when attacking in Close Combat. Oohh...

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
See, it's working already.

And yeah, if someone has a nice army of one chapter of space marines, but today they are using the rules for a different chapter because it has better rules for the units they brought... yeah, I think that tells you something about that player.

So... your answer would be that someone would need to buy and paint 2000 points of space marines and paint them blue to play ultramarines... but if they wanted to play a game as ravenwing they would have to buy a separate 2000 points of identical space marines, but paint them black?

Wow. GW must -love- you.

Considering Ravenwing are primarily Bikers and Ultramarines don't really help Bikers...that'd be a really weird thing.
Or did you mean Raven Guard?

In any regards, there's a bit of truth to what he's said. There has been trends over the years with a certain kind of player that builds a Marine army and hopscotches from book to book based upon which book gives them the best bonuses.

And whats the problem with that? Why we bash people for trying to be competitive picking the best totally arbitrary Rule GW just decide that edition to give to a random paint scheme they have choosen that is "fluffy"? (And as many people have seen, what GW think is fluffy and what other people thinks is fluffy can change)

If you want to be disingenuous here, that's your perogative. It's not exactly a "random paint scheme" in regards to the "Big Names" for the Marines book.

As others have pointed out, one can arguee about "confusion". But if someone say "Ey, my Iron Hands don't use the Iron Hand bonus of a 6++, they use the Ravenguard One). Whats exactly the confusion with that?

The "confusion" is that you painted them and presumably even went out of your way to do iconography enough to show them to be Iron Hands. If someone sees that, they're going to immediately be able to identify it as "Oh he'll have FNPs".

Except then you throw at them "Nah, they're really Raven Guard".

It's one thing entirely for you to have created a scratch Chapter and play around with their parentage based on power levels--people might still grumble at you or tease you about being a powergamer, but it's the whole reason why they have encouraged you to make your own Chapters in the past.
Raven Guard are Raven Guard and Iron Hands are Iron Hands. If you don't like how your Iron Hands are playing this edition, make a slight effort and rejig parts of the paint scheme to match Raven Guard or one of their Successors--or rejig your paint scheme and make your own Chapter.

My Eldar are currently painted mostly in bone and black, with red accents. They're not Ulthwe though, I have my own craftworld and fluff for them. Does that mean I should feel guilty if I play someone and they think I should have Ulthwe rules? No, cos I told them what rules I have. If they forget, it's hardly my fault. It's not like I even know off by heart what ultramarine rules are, I'd have to check the rulebook.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
And why ware ups to you? Fluff be damned. I spent a lot of time painting building toy soldiers. Does not bother me one bit to change allegiance for better play. White scars can be black/red/blue. Makes no difference when you line up vs someone and they don’t get to have their fluffy Battle vs getting to play at all.

agreed 100%.

Spend way too much money buying these, and then time painting them, that I would never let an opponent tell me i couldnt run my army as any specific craftworld, because they arent the right color...

IDC if you show up with a green Saim Hann army, as long as you say in the beginning that is your intent...


I am not expecting my opponents to have 4-5 of every unit of their army in each craftworld colors... thats insane

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The Biel-Tan reroll is more like an IG regiment that got reroll 1s on bolters.

More like re-roll 1s when attacking in Close Combat. Oohh...

*Sideways glance at Codex*

 ph34r wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The Biel-Tan reroll is more like an IG regiment that got reroll 1s on bolters.

More like re-roll 1s when attacking in Close Combat. Oohh...

*Sideways glance at Codex*

...We... we don't talk about Sicarians anymore...

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I'm still waiting to see if there is a "Webway" stratagem that allows a unit to 'deepstrike'. If it exists, I'll breathe a sigh of relief.

You wouldn't want to use such a stratagem for CC units anyway, except possibly with Saim-Hann. Deep-striking CC is generally bad because you need to make a 9" charge.

In general I agree but Banshees could actually make it work. They get +3" to their charge move so you only need to roll a 6+ on 2D6 to make a charge after DS which is a 72% chance of success (92% with Saim Hann). Considering Banshees are only 16ppm, those are pretty good odds to throw some power-sword wielding cheerleaders into your opponent's key units.

Of course this assumes we get a Deep Strike Stratagem of some sort at all.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The "confusion" is that you painted them and presumably even went out of your way to do iconography enough to show them to be Iron Hands. If someone sees that, they're going to immediately be able to identify it as "Oh he'll have FNPs".

Except then you throw at them "Nah, they're really Raven Guard".

It's one thing entirely for you to have created a scratch Chapter and play around with their parentage based on power levels--people might still grumble at you or tease you about being a powergamer, but it's the whole reason why they have encouraged you to make your own Chapters in the past.
Raven Guard are Raven Guard and Iron Hands are Iron Hands. If you don't like how your Iron Hands are playing this edition, make a slight effort and rejig parts of the paint scheme to match Raven Guard or one of their Successors--or rejig your paint scheme and make your own Chapter.

i don't get people who have an issue with this. Who cares as long as the army is tabletop legal and everything is discussed and upfront beforehand?

I run a Biel Tan Aspect heavy army. In most of my games i don't run any Guardians/Avengers, the only Shuriken weapons i have are 10-13 Shuriken Pistols and a couple of Shuriken Cannons, i also run The Avatar so i almost never need to worry about morale. The Biel-Tan trait is practically useless for the type of army i bring to the tabletop and if my opponent has a problem with me using a different trait then i have no interest in playing that person.

Hell my next project is to convert an Alpha Legion army using Primaris Marines and i plan to chop and change between using them as Chaos Space Marines (Alpha Legion) or Space Marines (Omega Dragons custom chapter) as i see fit!

 DivineVisitor wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The "confusion" is that you painted them and presumably even went out of your way to do iconography enough to show them to be Iron Hands. If someone sees that, they're going to immediately be able to identify it as "Oh he'll have FNPs".

Except then you throw at them "Nah, they're really Raven Guard".

It's one thing entirely for you to have created a scratch Chapter and play around with their parentage based on power levels--people might still grumble at you or tease you about being a powergamer, but it's the whole reason why they have encouraged you to make your own Chapters in the past.
Raven Guard are Raven Guard and Iron Hands are Iron Hands. If you don't like how your Iron Hands are playing this edition, make a slight effort and rejig parts of the paint scheme to match Raven Guard or one of their Successors--or rejig your paint scheme and make your own Chapter.

i don't get people who have an issue with this. Who cares as long as the army is tabletop legal and everything is discussed and upfront beforehand?

I run a Biel Tan Aspect heavy army. In most of my games i don't run any Guardians/Avengers, the only Shuriken weapons i have are 10-13 Shuriken Pistols and a couple of Shuriken Cannons, i also run The Avatar so i almost never need to worry about morale. The Biel-Tan trait is practically useless for the type of army i bring to the tabletop and if my opponent has a problem with me using a different trait then i have no interest in playing that person.

Hell my next project is to convert an Alpha Legion army using Primaris Marines and i plan to chop and change between using them as Chaos Space Marines (Alpha Legion) or Space Marines (Omega Dragons custom chapter) as i see fit!

Yeh, I always use my own custom armies, whether it is my own craftworld or an Ork Mob. The colours I use are the ones I like the most for my particular theme. If they end up similar to a current army... well it's bound to happen. There's 20 space marine chapters (not even including the successor chapters) and they all have colour schemes. There are only so many colours to choose from.

In order to end up with a "unique" scheme, you'd pretty much have to go for the My Little Pony army in pink and lime green polka dots.

Am I the only one who doesn't think there's a problem with Iyanden Wraithlords + Saim-Hann Scat Bikes + Biel-Tan Vypers? Mix and match. If you really want to play the fluff, then play the fluff.

Iyandens CT is fluffy if you Forge the Narrative.

Every life is precious to them right? Severely depleted population constantly on the brink of extinction,they cant afford to lose any more precious aeldari. Well, they gave you a rule to reflect that...

will the box have the sprues to make a unit of wraithblades?

I don't have any of the plastic ones just the old metal ones and not sure how they are produced?

 admironheart wrote:
will the box have the sprues to make a unit of wraithblades?

I don't have any of the plastic ones just the old metal ones and not sure how they are produced?

Wraithguard and Wraithblade are the same kit. check the sprue on webstore.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

I never said anyone needed to do anything. But some people have an ultramarine army because they like ultramarines. Not because ultramarines have the rules they want. If they want to use lots of bikes in one game, then they use lots of ultramarine bikes, and the ultramarines don't suddenly become some other chapter to get better rules. Other people just view the rules as just rules and their chapter is whatever chapter gives them the rules they want that game. It seems clear to me that those are two different kinds of gamers. Nothing wrong with either one, but obviously it says something about them.

It says mostly that GW made a huge design mistake, one that limits both players and model sales. Its especially rough when there is a mismatch with the background or when a specific unit or playstyle becomes the sole province of a specific sub-faction (see red eldar, or white marines).
Though personally I think guard got the most egregious version- if you didn't buy the right models 20 years ago, you can't run the kind of guard army you want, which is super crazy.

I will inevitably run 10 man Axeblades running up the board. On that day, I'll be running Iyanden. I will want to Fortune that huge investment, cuz a 6+++ won't cut it. If the enemy decides to focus them down with a ton of fire power/ Mortal Wounds I dont want to lose any more than I have to from bad Morale.

Overall, I dont play any specific craftworld and will gladly swap between them game to game if only to keep my opponents on their toes. Just another spice on thd rack to keep the flavor fresh.

As to Battle Focus, it easy to forget but Swooping Hawks fire Rapid Fire guns now. So, its specific wording isn't just for pistols.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
See, it's working already.

And yeah, if someone has a nice army of one chapter of space marines, but today they are using the rules for a different chapter because it has better rules for the units they brought... yeah, I think that tells you something about that player.

Well that covers pretty much majority of players then...

It just tells players do what GW wants them to do.

Voss wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

I never said anyone needed to do anything. But some people have an ultramarine army because they like ultramarines. Not because ultramarines have the rules they want. If they want to use lots of bikes in one game, then they use lots of ultramarine bikes, and the ultramarines don't suddenly become some other chapter to get better rules. Other people just view the rules as just rules and their chapter is whatever chapter gives them the rules they want that game. It seems clear to me that those are two different kinds of gamers. Nothing wrong with either one, but obviously it says something about them.

It says mostly that GW made a huge design mistake, one that limits both players and model sales. Its especially rough when there is a mismatch with the background or when a specific unit or playstyle becomes the sole province of a specific sub-faction (see red eldar, or white marines).
Though personally I think guard got the most egregious version- if you didn't buy the right models 20 years ago, you can't run the kind of guard army you want, which is super crazy.

Yea such a huge design mistake they literally cannot make models fast enough to meet demand....

What if you are color blind? Different shades of gray or everything is Ulthwe?

 Karhedron wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I'm still waiting to see if there is a "Webway" stratagem that allows a unit to 'deepstrike'. If it exists, I'll breathe a sigh of relief.

You wouldn't want to use such a stratagem for CC units anyway, except possibly with Saim-Hann. Deep-striking CC is generally bad because you need to make a 9" charge.

In general I agree but Banshees could actually make it work. They get +3" to their charge move so you only need to roll a 6+ on 2D6 to make a charge after DS which is a 72% chance of success (92% with Saim Hann). Considering Banshees are only 16ppm, those are pretty good odds to throw some power-sword wielding cheerleaders into your opponent's key units.

Of course this assumes we get a Deep Strike Stratagem of some sort at all.

That's a good point, though like you said earlier Banshees have such a huge charge range that you don't actually need to deep strike them to get them where you want them. I do think that 16 points seems a bit high, though -- compare to Crusaders which have similar output but are far more durable for 15 points, and which have an even higher effective charge range than Banshees in Serpents when they ride in Valkyries.

Banshees at 16ppm sound great if you're playing against non-ultramarine space marines, other eldar or the "other xenos" like necrons, nids.. however, chaos, demons and guard just slaughter them with 4ppm models. It's all about force multipler stratagems. Eldar doesn't need some random deep strike tricks, it needs strategems that give flat bonuses to wound like chaos and guard has.

It'd be really nice if they made the Avatar (the real one, not that Yncarne silliness) capable of properly acting as the physical incarnation of a god that it is. Right now, that statline looks pretty mediocre. I know that GW has a nasty habit of letting everyone and their dog strangle them to death, but they should at least be on par with a greater daemon.

 Fafnir wrote:
It'd be really nice if they made the Avatar (the real one, not that Yncarne silliness) capable of properly acting as the physical incarnation of a god that it is. Right now, that statline looks pretty mediocre. I know that GW has a nasty habit of letting everyone and their dog strangle them to death, but they should at least be on par with a greater daemon.

Because they insist on using the hilariously small 2E model for the codex rather than the properly scaled FW version. Same reason the Keeper of Secrets and GUO get watered down rules compared to the new plastic greater daemons.

 Fafnir wrote:
It'd be really nice if they made the Avatar (the real one, not that Yncarne silliness) capable of properly acting as the physical incarnation of a god that it is. Right now, that statline looks pretty mediocre. I know that GW has a nasty habit of letting everyone and their dog strangle them to death, but they should at least be on par with a greater daemon.

I've played him several times and he works very well. As the Warlord, I take the+1 attack and he has done a lot of great work. His damage output is extremely good and rerolls for assault gets him into assault quicker than my opponents suspect. Overall, I found him to be one of the more reliable units in Craftworld. Hoping the codex even further improves him.