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That's somewhat ironic. The mutant who should be hunted by Imperium standards is the popular one...

Well, his mutation was angel wings, he was the best looking, and he was the most caring out of all of them.

That and Primarchs got a lot more leeway for being a bit more 'unique' compared to most.

My personal ranking for Warmaster was Horus > Sanguinius > Guilliman > Lion > any of the rest.

Mutation is mutation. I would have thought Vulkan was the most caring personally.

Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

Due to their mutual psychic abilities, Sanguinius may have had a connection to Kurze. Maybe not 'like', but a sort of understanding or sympathy?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

Due to their mutual psychic abilities, Sanguinius may have had a connection to Kurze. Maybe not 'like', but a sort of understanding or sympathy?

Mortarion kinda understood Night Hunters war style and appeal. They were both the goth outcasts and really played up the Angels of Death theme. Also Fulgrim tried to help. Fulgrim was pretty chummy with all the Primarchs, in a friendly frat boy type of way.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

Due to their mutual psychic abilities, Sanguinius may have had a connection to Kurze. Maybe not 'like', but a sort of understanding or sympathy?

Mortarion kinda understood Night Hunters war style and appeal. They were both the goth outcasts and really played up the Angels of Death theme. Also Fulgrim tried to help. Fulgrim was pretty chummy with all the Primarchs, in a friendly frat boy type of way.

Fulgrim ratted him out to Dorn. Curze may have *thought* Fulgrim was his friend, but I don't think that's the case. Friends don't rat on friends.

pm713 wrote:
I've never seen any real reason why Sanguinius was so good beyond making him dying more tragic.

He broke Ka'Bandha's back over his knee and then proceeded to go fight Horus.

Sanguinius was possibly the greatest, because there was literally not a single Primarch that disliked him. Hell, Angron only had a rivalry with him. He was the noblest of them, which Horus tried to exploit at Signus.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

Sanguinius came closest. He understood Curze and genuinely felt sympathy for his brother (Angels of Caliban). Curze handed himself over to Sanguinius, hoping to be executed, but Sanguinius refused.

Horus or Mortarion probably didn't have a big issue with Space Batsy, but Sanguinius cared more for him than any of the others.

pm713 wrote:
I've never seen any real reason why Sanguinius was so good beyond making him dying more tragic.

Because he was the only one that mastered compassion.

A leader without compassion will eventually cause a rebellion in their ranks. See also: The Emperor.

 Melissia wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I've never seen any real reason why Sanguinius was so good beyond making him dying more tragic.

Because he was the only one that mastered compassion. A leader without compassion will eventually cause a rebellion in their ranks. See also: The Emperor.

Besides, didn't most of the Primarchs agree that Sanguinius was the best swordsman among them? And some thought only Angron would have any chance at all if Sanguinius went berserk in the duel?

Spetulhu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I've never seen any real reason why Sanguinius was so good beyond making him dying more tragic.

Because he was the only one that mastered compassion. A leader without compassion will eventually cause a rebellion in their ranks. See also: The Emperor.

Besides, didn't most of the Primarchs agree that Sanguinius was the best swordsman among them? And some thought only Angron would have any chance at all if Sanguinius went berserk in the duel?

The Khan, the Lion, Curze, Sanguinius, Russ, Angron, and Fulgrim were probably the top, judging by exploits and opinions from the books. I have a sneaky suspicion the Khan may the best, especially after how he crushed Mortarion on Prospero, possibly a pre-total mental collapse Curze. While some obviously sought to be recognised (Mortarion) as the best swordsmen/mêlée fighter, I can't imagine it was that coveted. I can't imagine Lorgar, Alpharius, Magnus etc. gave a rat's arse.

I'm pretty sure Sanguinius, Horus and Angron are portrayed as being the top fighters most consistently.

Curze's abilities are all over the place since one author said his precognition can work to his advantage in combat but I'm not sure if other authors have followed that interpretation. Situation and just plain luck would play a factor. One Primarch can win one day and lose the next because that's just how things are sometimes.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

Due to their mutual psychic abilities, Sanguinius may have had a connection to Kurze. Maybe not 'like', but a sort of understanding or sympathy?

Mortarion kinda understood Night Hunters war style and appeal. They were both the goth outcasts and really played up the Angels of Death theme. Also Fulgrim tried to help. Fulgrim was pretty chummy with all the Primarchs, in a friendly frat boy type of way.

Fulgrim ratted him out to Dorn. Curze may have *thought* Fulgrim was his friend, but I don't think that's the case. Friends don't rat on friends.

I don’t know, I don’t really see it as “ratting him out”. It’s not like Curze said he broke Dorn’s favorite wall, he said some pretty heavy and distressing stuff about his death and the other primarchs to Fulgrim, which could have unsettled Fulgrim enough to also confide in Dorn. Given Dorn’s implacable reputation I could see the thought process. I’m not sure if Fulgrim was the Night Naunter’s friend either, but I don’t think there was anything malicious or devious in Fulgrim’s actions either, potentially the opposite. If one of my friend’s confided to me about something of similiar gravity (thoughts of suicide/other mental issues, drug habit, something equally dark really), I wouldn’t just sit on the knowledge hoping things resolve themselves. Friends don’t rat out friends on minor things, but sometimes making the call to have an intervention is exactly what a friend should do, it’s just a shame Dorn (Curze’s personality also doesn’t help) wasn’t equipped with the nuances required for the task.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

Sanguinis of all the Primarchs was the closest to having an understanding with Cruz. Ruinstorm makes this clear

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

Sanguinis of all the Primarchs was the closest to having an understanding with Cruz. Ruinstorm makes this clear

I'll get there eventually. On unremembered Empire right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

R0bcrt wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

Due to their mutual psychic abilities, Sanguinius may have had a connection to Kurze. Maybe not 'like', but a sort of understanding or sympathy?

Mortarion kinda understood Night Hunters war style and appeal. They were both the goth outcasts and really played up the Angels of Death theme. Also Fulgrim tried to help. Fulgrim was pretty chummy with all the Primarchs, in a friendly frat boy type of way.

Fulgrim ratted him out to Dorn. Curze may have *thought* Fulgrim was his friend, but I don't think that's the case. Friends don't rat on friends.

I don’t know, I don’t really see it as “ratting him out”. It’s not like Curze said he broke Dorn’s favorite wall, he said some pretty heavy and distressing stuff about his death and the other primarchs to Fulgrim, which could have unsettled Fulgrim enough to also confide in Dorn. Given Dorn’s implacable reputation I could see the thought process. I’m not sure if Fulgrim was the Night Naunter’s friend either, but I don’t think there was anything malicious or devious in Fulgrim’s actions either, potentially the opposite. If one of my friend’s confided to me about something of similiar gravity (thoughts of suicide/other mental issues, drug habit, something equally dark really), I wouldn’t just sit on the knowledge hoping things resolve themselves. Friends don’t rat out friends on minor things, but sometimes making the call to have an intervention is exactly what a friend should do, it’s just a shame Dorn (Curze’s personality also doesn’t help) wasn’t equipped with the nuances required for the task.

Fulgrim tutored Konrad after he'd been found by the Emperor.... so they'd gotten along well enough up to that point.

If I remember correctly, the public spectacle with Curze arming the prisoner in front of Dorn and then killing him had already happened. I believe Fulgrim had been fighting on the same planet- I have a hard time believing that Fulgrim missed that incident. Heck, I have a hard time recalling someone that Curze got along with worse.

After reading The Last Hunt, the White Scars still aren't even sure if the rumours about his return are legit, apparently. It's crazy how much the Cicatrix Maledictum messed up the half of the Imperium that's gone dark.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

Sanguinis of all the Primarchs was the closest to having an understanding with Cruz. Ruinstorm makes this clear

I'll get there eventually. On unremembered Empire right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

R0bcrt wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

Due to their mutual psychic abilities, Sanguinius may have had a connection to Kurze. Maybe not 'like', but a sort of understanding or sympathy?

Mortarion kinda understood Night Hunters war style and appeal. They were both the goth outcasts and really played up the Angels of Death theme. Also Fulgrim tried to help. Fulgrim was pretty chummy with all the Primarchs, in a friendly frat boy type of way.

Fulgrim ratted him out to Dorn. Curze may have *thought* Fulgrim was his friend, but I don't think that's the case. Friends don't rat on friends.

I don’t know, I don’t really see it as “ratting him out”. It’s not like Curze said he broke Dorn’s favorite wall, he said some pretty heavy and distressing stuff about his death and the other primarchs to Fulgrim, which could have unsettled Fulgrim enough to also confide in Dorn. Given Dorn’s implacable reputation I could see the thought process. I’m not sure if Fulgrim was the Night Naunter’s friend either, but I don’t think there was anything malicious or devious in Fulgrim’s actions either, potentially the opposite. If one of my friend’s confided to me about something of similiar gravity (thoughts of suicide/other mental issues, drug habit, something equally dark really), I wouldn’t just sit on the knowledge hoping things resolve themselves. Friends don’t rat out friends on minor things, but sometimes making the call to have an intervention is exactly what a friend should do, it’s just a shame Dorn (Curze’s personality also doesn’t help) wasn’t equipped with the nuances required for the task.

Fulgrim tutored Konrad after he'd been found by the Emperor.... so they'd gotten along well enough up to that point.

If I remember correctly, the public spectacle with Curze arming the prisoner in front of Dorn and then killing him had already happened. I believe Fulgrim had been fighting on the same planet- I have a hard time believing that Fulgrim missed that incident. Heck, I have a hard time recalling someone that Curze got along with worse.

Yeah he should have been on that planet, so I think he probably heard of the incident (though let's be honest, since Fulgrim was tutoring Konrad Fulgrim probably just sighed upon hearing the incident- it's par for the course for Curze so I'd be more shocked if Fulgrim didn't know that side of Curze). Even then, before that Dorn was trying to be friendly (albeit forcing it as Curze noted), and after the incident was stern but not threatening violence, only that a serious talk was needed (maybe that would have turned violent but who knows?). It wasn't until after Fulgrim told Dorn about his visions that Dorn lost his temper, but it wasn't violent until Curze had his vision and returned to consciousness perched atop Dorn after clawing him, and that's when the problems really began to snowball. Since Dorn was trying to be friendly to Curze and even mentor him a bit too before this, I can see Fulgrim turning to Dorn after those serious visions were told to him. Relations with Dorn weren't great, but it wasn't particularly bad until after this event is the implication I'm getting, so it's not too far fetched Fulgrim went to Dorn thinking a paragon of implacability would help resolve Fulgrim's concerns and also somehow help Curze, which it obviously didn't.

If I recall correctly all we know about the Dorn-Curze incident was that Dorn learnt about Curze's visions about the Emperor killing him, stormed in to confront him and the next thing we know is that Curze was perched on top of Dorn having torn chunks out of him.

I don't think we can really judge Dorn on the basis of that. Curze's reaction was completely unpredictable. He was mentally ill in a dangerous way.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
If I recall correctly all we know about the Dorn-Curze incident was that Dorn learnt about Curze's visions about the Emperor killing him, stormed in to confront him and the next thing we know is that Curze was perched on top of Dorn having torn chunks out of him.

I don't think we can really judge Dorn on the basis of that. Curze's reaction was completely unpredictable. He was mentally ill in a dangerous way.

... just reminder that the last time Dorn confronted Curze, Curze was right. Dude totally shot Konrad once he thought he could get away with it. Should have given Dorn a reason to *maybe* consider Curze was right again.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

... just reminder that the last time Dorn confronted Curze, Curze was right. Dude totally shot Konrad once he thought he could get away with it. Should have given Dorn a reason to *maybe* consider Curze was right again.

I don't know what you're referring to here.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

... just reminder that the last time Dorn confronted Curze, Curze was right. Dude totally shot Konrad once he thought he could get away with it. Should have given Dorn a reason to *maybe* consider Curze was right again.

I don't know what you're referring to here.

That short story where Konrad was going to kill all the captured enemy troops and Dorn threw a bitch-fit and Konrad said they're all still disloyal at heart and Dorn said to be nice so Konrad gave a prisoner a weapon and ordered his men to not intervene and the prisoner tried to shoot and Konrad killed him. No? Not ringing a bell?

 Robin5t wrote:
After reading The Last Hunt, the White Scars still aren't even sure if the rumours about his return are legit, apparently. It's crazy how much the Cicatrix Maledictum messed up the half of the Imperium that's gone dark.

IIRC the last hunt is early in the indomatus crusade, but that's very likely the case in a lot of places, news travels slow in 40k as a general rule, and something like Gulliman's turn likely sounds like one of those "too good to be true" rumors

 EmpNortonII wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
If I recall correctly all we know about the Dorn-Curze incident was that Dorn learnt about Curze's visions about the Emperor killing him, stormed in to confront him and the next thing we know is that Curze was perched on top of Dorn having torn chunks out of him.

I don't think we can really judge Dorn on the basis of that. Curze's reaction was completely unpredictable. He was mentally ill in a dangerous way.

... just reminder that the last time Dorn confronted Curze, Curze was right. Dude totally shot Konrad once he thought he could get away with it. Should have given Dorn a reason to *maybe* consider Curze was right again.

Was he right though? Okay, yes, literally Curze was right, but he basically pulled a “that addict can’t reform!” and handed the person their addiction at the same time, ie he fundamentally skewed the outcome by his actions. Considering Curze and the Night Lords had been doing god awful things to the populace (hence why Dorn came), for all we know that man saw his wife and children flayed alive among who knows what, and it was probably those actions that lead him to decide pulling the trigger was worth it. In this regard i ultimately see the event as working in Dorn’s argument, Curze’s use of fear works well when you personally beat someone into submission and watch over them, but the second hope is offered or a chance is seen to escape that fear (killing Curze), then people will attempt it. It forces compliance but not genuine compliance, which was Dorn’s point. We see it here, but we also see it in Nostramo too which reinforces this for me (his version of compliance falls apart the second he is gone).

BrianDavion wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
After reading The Last Hunt, the White Scars still aren't even sure if the rumours about his return are legit, apparently. It's crazy how much the Cicatrix Maledictum messed up the half of the Imperium that's gone dark.

IIRC the last hunt is early in the indomatus crusade, but that's very likely the case in a lot of places, news travels slow in 40k as a general rule, and something like Gulliman's turn likely sounds like one of those "too good to be true" rumors

It's set not long after Leviathan's attack on Baal.

 Robin5t wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
After reading The Last Hunt, the White Scars still aren't even sure if the rumours about his return are legit, apparently. It's crazy how much the Cicatrix Maledictum messed up the half of the Imperium that's gone dark.

IIRC the last hunt is early in the indomatus crusade, but that's very likely the case in a lot of places, news travels slow in 40k as a general rule, and something like Gulliman's turn likely sounds like one of those "too good to be true" rumors

It's set not long after Leviathan's attack on Baal.

right so early in the Indomatus crusade.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


That short story where Konrad was going to kill all the captured enemy troops and Dorn threw a bitch-fit and Konrad said they're all still disloyal at heart and Dorn said to be nice so Konrad gave a prisoner a weapon and ordered his men to not intervene and the prisoner tried to shoot and Konrad killed him. No? Not ringing a bell?

My mistake, I misread what you wrote.

Still, Curze's methods weren't superior. An enemy might still want to kill you because of what you've done to their homeland but Curze used terror to cow populations. His method never created loyalty. Horus' methods at least kept collateral damage down. People like Guilliman created loyal and productive worlds without the same brutality. As for Dorn, I don't actually recall if it's said how he handled worlds he'd made compliant. Either way, Curze's methods were unsound. He was the sort of person who'd keep on creating enemies due to his horrific actions. People would remain resentful for generations. The worlds he conquered weren't properly integrated (the same can be said for many other Primarchs but they tended not to leave such brutalised populations behind).

Keep in mind Curze hated his own legion, and really hated himself too. He was basically an overwhelmingly depressed individual with a sense of justice born with superhuman powers and later given a legion of super soldiers. I'd be impressed that things went so well to be honest.

And let's not forget that the legion of supersoldiers was made up of criminal scum.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
And let's not forget that the legion of supersoldiers was made up of criminal scum.

Not originally as I recall, and I'm not sure Curze actually had anything to do with that practice rather than simply being too apathetic to do anything about it. But yes, that is another good point.