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 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
And let's not forget that the legion of supersoldiers was made up of criminal scum.

Not originally as I recall, and I'm not sure Curze actually had anything to do with that practice rather than simply being too apathetic to do anything about it. But yes, that is another good point.

They were - even the Terran recruits came out of prison cells.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
And let's not forget that the legion of supersoldiers was made up of criminal scum.

Not originally as I recall, and I'm not sure Curze actually had anything to do with that practice rather than simply being too apathetic to do anything about it. But yes, that is another good point.

They were - even the Terran recruits came out of prison cells.

The terran born criminals might have been pulled from the areas they managed to liberate from the other technology Barbarians.

So a degree of debt to the emparor and his armies.

The emparor was not only one who used prisons.
He took the vault off someone else I'm sure. He never built it.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
And let's not forget that the legion of supersoldiers was made up of criminal scum.

Not originally as I recall, and I'm not sure Curze actually had anything to do with that practice rather than simply being too apathetic to do anything about it. But yes, that is another good point.

They were - even the Terran recruits came out of prison cells.

Where did this information come from? I was under the impression that the original legion marines created on Earth were more or less all recruited/trained in the same fashion with each of the different gene seeds used. I mean *tons* of the Horus Heresy narratives revolve around the earth formed marines conflicting with the marines created from the populations of the primachs home planets.

 vonjankmon wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
And let's not forget that the legion of supersoldiers was made up of criminal scum.

Not originally as I recall, and I'm not sure Curze actually had anything to do with that practice rather than simply being too apathetic to do anything about it. But yes, that is another good point.

They were - even the Terran recruits came out of prison cells.

Where did this information come from? I was under the impression that the original legion marines created on Earth were more or less all recruited/trained in the same fashion with each of the different gene seeds used. I mean *tons* of the Horus Heresy narratives revolve around the earth formed marines conflicting with the marines created from the populations of the primachs home planets.

At first. There quirks and traits began to show more as they crusaded.

The traits where most evident when primarchs found and began to shape legions with own recruits.

The old terrans where somewhat of two worlds and remembered the first founding of the legions.

 vonjankmon wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
And let's not forget that the legion of supersoldiers was made up of criminal scum.

Not originally as I recall, and I'm not sure Curze actually had anything to do with that practice rather than simply being too apathetic to do anything about it. But yes, that is another good point.

They were - even the Terran recruits came out of prison cells.

Where did this information come from? I was under the impression that the original legion marines created on Earth were more or less all recruited/trained in the same fashion with each of the different gene seeds used. I mean *tons* of the Horus Heresy narratives revolve around the earth formed marines conflicting with the marines created from the populations of the primachs home planets.

The Forge World Horus Heresy Campaign books.

The initial runs for the Night Lords were children of people imprisoned by the Emperor's Enemies. So not prisoners by right of having done anything wrong, but by right of having been born to prisoners. They grew up in that environment and adapted to it, becoming murderers and thieves. Basically they are Nolan Bane, they never saw the light until they were already Astartes.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


The Forge World Horus Heresy Campaign books.

The initial runs for the Night Lords were children of people imprisoned by the Emperor's Enemies. So not prisoners by right of having done anything wrong, but by right of having been born to prisoners. They grew up in that environment and adapted to it, becoming murderers and thieves. Basically they are Nolan Bane, they never saw the light until they were already Astartes.

Wow, thanks for the source, appreciate it. As much as I like most of the HH stories sometimes I wish they didn't explore it because it has really made the Emperor look like a flaming idiot and that it was a miracle that the rebellion took as long as it did to occur.

I mean, what could possibly go wrong with making a bunch of prisoners into super soldiers? Lets give it a try!

 vonjankmon wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


The Forge World Horus Heresy Campaign books.

The initial runs for the Night Lords were children of people imprisoned by the Emperor's Enemies. So not prisoners by right of having done anything wrong, but by right of having been born to prisoners. They grew up in that environment and adapted to it, becoming murderers and thieves. Basically they are Nolan Bane, they never saw the light until they were already Astartes.

Wow, thanks for the source, appreciate it. As much as I like most of the HH stories sometimes I wish they didn't explore it because it has really made the Emperor look like a flaming idiot and that it was a miracle that the rebellion took as long as it did to occur.

I mean, what could possibly go wrong with making a bunch of prisoners into super soldiers? Lets give it a try!

Hey, Emparor is perfect. He can do nothing wrong.

And they should be loyal because they got freed by the Emparor.
He always has loyalty of those he liberates or rescues!

 vonjankmon wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


The Forge World Horus Heresy Campaign books.

The initial runs for the Night Lords were children of people imprisoned by the Emperor's Enemies. So not prisoners by right of having done anything wrong, but by right of having been born to prisoners. They grew up in that environment and adapted to it, becoming murderers and thieves. Basically they are Nolan Bane, they never saw the light until they were already Astartes.

Wow, thanks for the source, appreciate it. As much as I like most of the HH stories sometimes I wish they didn't explore it because it has really made the Emperor look like a flaming idiot and that it was a miracle that the rebellion took as long as it did to occur.

I mean, what could possibly go wrong with making a bunch of prisoners into super soldiers? Lets give it a try!

Well i mean, he might have been leaning on the idea of, his forces liberated them so there's the chance they would be loyal to him (not the best thing to bank on). And for a time they were because of that and Indoctrination.

so Roboute is well liked by everyone right now?

Yeah but mentally unstable people, super soldiers or not are generally not what you want to rely on in the long term, even if they are loyal to you initially because you freed them.

I guess maybe if he was planning on getting rid of the Space Marines like he did to the Thunder Warriors it may have made sense as you just needed them for a short(ish) period of time but the creation of the Primachs seems to suggest that he wanted them around for the long term.

There's just a building disconnect between the "Super powerful psycher that is so smart and powerful" that the Emperor was always portrayed as and the weirdly out of touch and clueless Emperor that the HH novels seem to be showing now.

I really have to wonder if when Roboute met with the Emperor he came to that conclusion, had his perfect world finally shattered between that and what the Imperium had become then just said "Feth it, I can do better, here hold my beer." and started getting the Imperium back in order. It will be very interesting to see what happens in the fluff when another loyalist Primach returns, whether it's Russ or the Lion or whatever.

LightKing wrote:
so Roboute is well liked by everyone right now?

Not everyone, I'm sure there are some people in the Adeptus Terra who dislike him, but among Space Marines this is true, the Man is a Primarch and a highly respected one at that, with an impressive military and civic record. Also worth noting is that the Ultramarines, as a Legion, don't have any long standing grudges/feuds (such as the Dark Angels/Space Wolves) that could complicate matters for him. This BTW is WHY Gulliman was the first loyalist Primarch to return. Of all the Loyal Primarchs Gulliman, is the most able to serve as a "leader for all the Imperium"
Most if not all of the other loyalist primarchs wou;dn't fill that role easily. so now that we have Gulliman back, they can build around that.

I'm still not seeing WHY we have a leader of the Imperium. Seeing as the Eldar resurrected a dead man to do it it makes no sense to pick Roboute.

pm713 wrote:
I'm still not seeing WHY we have a leader of the Imperium. Seeing as the Eldar resurrected a dead man to do it it makes no sense to pick Roboute.

Why does it not make sense? He's a symbol that the Imperium can rally behind, a man of war and politics a son of the Emperor and the one who held it together after the Heresy. Plus he's more reasonable than the Emperor. The Eldar need Humanity strong in order to stave off the end of the Galaxy.

LightKing wrote:so Roboute is well liked by everyone right now?

More or less. We've not really seen anyone beyond higher ranking Administratum and Admech personnel have an issue with him, and even then they don't make active issues. As a Primarch, he is pretty much liked by all Space Marines of any stripe, and humans will suffer the "OMG IT'S A PRIMARCH" effect we see in the Horus Heresy.

pm713 wrote:I'm still not seeing WHY we have a leader of the Imperium. Seeing as the Eldar resurrected a dead man to do it it makes no sense to pick Roboute.

Is this in a in-universe standpoint or a meta standpoint?

Assuming it's in-universe, it gives the Imperium single figure who can make executive decisions, a morale boost, more direct tactical and strategic advantages. The latter two are exclusive to Guilliman, but having a way to bypass the politiking of the HLOT and the massive morale benefit of such a leader, as well as a more reasonable mind in a changing universe. Plus, Guilliman gave us Primaris Marines. The Emperor didn't.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

LightKing wrote:so Roboute is well liked by everyone right now?

More or less. We've not really seen anyone beyond higher ranking Administratum and Admech personnel have an issue with him, and even then they don't make active issues. As a Primarch, he is pretty much liked by all Space Marines of any stripe, and humans will suffer the "OMG IT'S A PRIMARCH" effect we see in the Horus Heresy.

pm713 wrote:I'm still not seeing WHY we have a leader of the Imperium. Seeing as the Eldar resurrected a dead man to do it it makes no sense to pick Roboute.

Is this in a in-universe standpoint or a meta standpoint?

Assuming it's in-universe, it gives the Imperium single figure who can make executive decisions, a morale boost, more direct tactical and strategic advantages. The latter two are exclusive to Guilliman, but having a way to bypass the politiking of the HLOT and the massive morale benefit of such a leader, as well as a more reasonable mind in a changing universe. Plus, Guilliman gave us Primaris Marines. The Emperor didn't.

Also he a already setting a record unlike past 10,000 years or so of getting stiff done. Cutting aside red tape and just making things hapoen.

Massive change. He only figure who can force the others to work with him. And also unify beyond there own smaller petty goals.

He only figure who can rally the kind of force he has, ans also start going. This will be done now.

Not in decades.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

LightKing wrote:so Roboute is well liked by everyone right now?

More or less. We've not really seen anyone beyond higher ranking Administratum and Admech personnel have an issue with him, and even then they don't make active issues. As a Primarch, he is pretty much liked by all Space Marines of any stripe, and humans will suffer the "OMG IT'S A PRIMARCH" effect we see in the Horus Heresy.

pm713 wrote:I'm still not seeing WHY we have a leader of the Imperium. Seeing as the Eldar resurrected a dead man to do it it makes no sense to pick Roboute.

Is this in a in-universe standpoint or a meta standpoint?

Assuming it's in-universe, it gives the Imperium single figure who can make executive decisions, a morale boost, more direct tactical and strategic advantages. The latter two are exclusive to Guilliman, but having a way to bypass the politiking of the HLOT and the massive morale benefit of such a leader, as well as a more reasonable mind in a changing universe. Plus, Guilliman gave us Primaris Marines. The Emperor didn't.

What I find so conflicting with the setting is how OK everyone seems to be with all the radical changes going on. Gulliman is resurrected with the help of Eldar death god fanatics and now the ranks of the Imperium's best warriors (the space marines) are being infiltrated by spawns of techno-heresy in the form of "primaris marines" created by Cawl (and not the design of Big E). We have xenos taint, possibly chaos taint (ynnari could be the pawn of chaos for all we know), tech heresy, and probably some regular heresy thrown into the mix as well and somehow this series of events isn't raising massive alarm bells for every Inquisitor, High Lord, Ecclesial and Planetary/Sector leader in the Imperium? What if this is all a plan by Chaos to spread its "agents" into place to eventually turn against the proper Space Marines (pull an order 66) and break the Imperium's spear tip opening the door for chaos to roll all of the IoM.

Personally I don't think GW would do something like that because of marketing reasons but in universe it would be a fairly reasonable conclusion to come to if your entire purpose is to be ever vigil of any hint of corruption and heresy within the IoM.

pm713 wrote:
I'm still not seeing WHY we have a leader of the Imperium. Seeing as the Eldar resurrected a dead man to do it it makes no sense to pick Roboute.

Was he even picked at all? I thought he just got to terra, talked with the Emperor, then took control and no one objected. And even imperial officials that potentially do have a problem with it wouldn't exactly speak up--I imagine they'd be killed for disloyalty/heresy almost immediately.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm still not seeing WHY we have a leader of the Imperium. Seeing as the Eldar resurrected a dead man to do it it makes no sense to pick Roboute.

Why does it not make sense? He's a symbol that the Imperium can rally behind, a man of war and politics a son of the Emperor and the one who held it together after the Heresy. Plus he's more reasonable than the Emperor. The Eldar need Humanity strong in order to stave off the end of the Galaxy.

But not so united they're a problem afterwards. Unless the Eldar are going to reveal they control him which would make much more sense.... Plus Humanity were strong before.

I'm sure there are Inquisitors and tech-priests who disagree with what's going on. What are they going to do about it, though? The Imperium is in bits, the military might is gladly following a resurrected demigod (who met the Emperor, remember - that's a massive boost to his legitimacy right there) and the more outlandish bits are likely secret; I seriously doubt anyone who wasn't in the room when he woke up knows that Guilliman was resurrected by Eldar.

Is there any proof he actually met the Emperor though? For all anyone knows he wandered into a room, chilled out for a while and came out saying he spoke with the Big E.

Considering they're Inqusitors I wouldn't be surprised if some of them spent some time getting ready for a chance to get rid of Roboute and lying low.

There's plenty of Custodes who'd have seen it, I imagine.

pm713 wrote:
Is there any proof he actually met the Emperor though? For all anyone knows he wandered into a room, chilled out for a while and came out saying he spoke with the Big E.

Considering they're Inqusitors I wouldn't be surprised if some of them spent some time getting ready for a chance to get rid of Roboute and lying low.

In Dark Imperium, they show the scene. The Emperor and Guilliman talk, and Guilliman realises that the Emperor is less of a father and more of a worker using tools to complete the job. It's a real meeting, not an alleged one.

Plus, the Custodes support Guilliman's claim, and they're the closest bodyguards the Emperor has. A Living Saint has vouched for him. Greyfax, a senior Inquisitor fights with him. Voldus, a leader of the Grey Knights, supports him. He has the vast majority of all Imperial forces at his command. Even Mars, through Cawl, is under his sway.

Who's going to dispute his claim when he has that kind of power, how could they do so without majority demoralising and fracturing the Imperium even more, and more importantly, who would complain when this is just Guilliman stepping BACK into his old role?
He's already been in this position before. This kind of power isn't new to him. Hell, he probably had MORE power back when he last held command, due to more Astartes (pre-Primaris, anyway), more guardsmen, and more worlds.

Vankraken wrote:

What I find so conflicting with the setting is how OK everyone seems to be with all the radical changes going on. Gulliman is resurrected with the help of Eldar death god fanatics and now the ranks of the Imperium's best warriors (the space marines) are being infiltrated by spawns of techno-heresy in the form of "primaris marines" created by Cawl (and not the design of Big E). We have xenos taint, possibly chaos taint (ynnari could be the pawn of chaos for all we know), tech heresy, and probably some regular heresy thrown into the mix as well and somehow this series of events isn't raising massive alarm bells for every Inquisitor, High Lord, Ecclesial and Planetary/Sector leader in the Imperium? What if this is all a plan by Chaos to spread its "agents" into place to eventually turn against the proper Space Marines (pull an order 66) and break the Imperium's spear tip opening the door for chaos to roll all of the IoM.

Personally I don't think GW would do something like that because of marketing reasons but in universe it would be a fairly reasonable conclusion to come to if your entire purpose is to be ever vigil of any hint of corruption and heresy within the IoM.

How many of those people listed would even know the Eldar had a part in the Resurrection of Guilliman? Little to none of them. Celestine, Greyfax and the Ultramarines are the only ones to survive beyond the Eldar that know and none of them will say anything because it would destabilize the Imperium. The Primaris are there because Guilliman ordered them Ten thousand years ago, Cawl didnt do it cause he got bored. You know what Guilliman was when he ordered them? The Lord Commander of the Imperium, the Emperor's Avenging Son. Anything he said went.

pm713 wrote:
But not so united they're a problem afterwards. Unless the Eldar are going to reveal they control him which would make much more sense.... Plus Humanity were strong before.

Humanity was strong before (and United enough to be a threat going against your own point), but not strong enough to hold the tide back, not strong enough to be the buffer the Eldar need. This was all covered in the Gathering Storm books, the Ynnari have a council meeting about it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


Who's going to dispute his claim when he has that kind of power, how could they do so without majority demoralising and fracturing the Imperium even more, and more importantly, who would complain when this is just Guilliman stepping BACK into his old role?

I can think of one such individual. He controls 20% of the Astartes once the Watchers in the Dark stop letting him hit the snooze button.

There'll be some groups of inquisitors peering ominously from the shadows of course. The Inquisition has never functioned as a cohesive entity for the most part, and has some pretty batgak crazy individuals in it.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


Who's going to dispute his claim when he has that kind of power, how could they do so without majority demoralising and fracturing the Imperium even more, and more importantly, who would complain when this is just Guilliman stepping BACK into his old role?

I can think of one such individual. He controls 20% of the Astartes once the Watchers in the Dark stop letting him hit the snooze button.

And it's long been established that Johnson is more then content with Guilliman running the show. Johnson is a warrior, he wants to fight. He's got no patience for ruling, is smart enough to know that, and recognizes how it's Guillimans strength.

 djones520 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


Who's going to dispute his claim when he has that kind of power, how could they do so without majority demoralising and fracturing the Imperium even more, and more importantly, who would complain when this is just Guilliman stepping BACK into his old role?

I can think of one such individual. He controls 20% of the Astartes once the Watchers in the Dark stop letting him hit the snooze button.

And it's long been established that Johnson is more then content with Guilliman running the show. Johnson is a warrior, he wants to fight. He's got no patience for ruling, is smart enough to know that, and recognizes how it's Guillimans strength.

That's not the impression *I* got from Unremembered empire. The Lion was ready to paste Girlyman if he was trying to run his own Imperium.

Yeah, but that's when he thought Guilliman was trying to usurp the Emperor. Once he realised that wasn't the case, he was happy to leave Guilliman to play logistics whilst he controlled the offensive side of things.

I suspect Guilliman will remember Pharos too well to trust his brother to do that again though.

Reading this thread is just reinforcing why GW has done such a gak job in bringing back Guiliman and introducing the Pramaris marines... shame as i like the models and used to like Guiliman, this new and improved version is gak lol

pm713 wrote:
I'm still not seeing WHY we have a leader of the Imperium. Seeing as the Eldar resurrected a dead man to do it it makes no sense to pick Roboute.

But isn't he technically 'just' one of the High Lords? At least in theory the other High Lords have authority to overrule him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I'm sure there are Inquisitors and tech-priests who disagree with what's going on. What are they going to do about it, though? The Imperium is in bits, the military might is gladly following a resurrected demigod (who met the Emperor, remember - that's a massive boost to his legitimacy right there) and the more outlandish bits are likely secret; I seriously doubt anyone who wasn't in the room when he woke up knows that Guilliman was resurrected by Eldar.

I'm sure there would be a ways to arrange him to die as a martyr. Sooner the Inquisition assassinates him and we can forget this embarrassing chapter the better.