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 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
This is an identical situation to long range static gunlines, except you have the option to back out of CC. The only counterplay to a basilisk is to kill it.

Maybe two identical gunlines, but ranged weapons have long ranges (36+") Medium Range (around 24") and Close Range (6-18") and they generally offer different counterplay depending on the other army. Even against extremely long ranged gunlines, the counterplay is to try to outfox your opponent by intentionally offering up certain units to get blown up so you can get what you really need to take them out into position (medium range and close range have even more counterplay as trying to keep them outside of their range while inside of your own threat range gives you some challenge).

Yes, different gunlines have different abilities.

The way I have been dealing with Conscript spam is not getting close to them. My CSM army is loaded up with lascannons, starts the game with 22 shots. The last game I played against Imperial Soup, the only thing my opponent had that had the distance to shoot me from 48+ inches was Earthshaker batteries. After taking out 2 of the 4 first turn, standing still and chewing up the rest of his army was pretty simple.

Not saying this would happen every game, but the range on a gunline is something people don't always think about. It's probably the most important factor.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, Power Armor CQC, and, in fact, CQC as the core of a list, can die and stay dead, IMO.

What's your issue with CC? It's a hell of a lot more interesting than gunlines that stay stock still 48" away and just roll dice.

I can see why CC isn't very appealing, since once you cross no-man's land you either wipe your opponent or get wiped. It's another thing with the game where it lacks decent counterplay other than "back up and shoot".

And this is coming from someone with 40 khorne berserkers.

At least in 8th you have activations and you can fall back, mechanics that give the meele phase a ton of depth compared with the meele phase of 3rd-7th editions.

4th edition melee was a total mess. It was even more all or nothing since you could consolidate into other units and (unless they had hit and run) completely lock them down.

The bar wasn't really that high to beat.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
This is an identical situation to long range static gunlines, except you have the option to back out of CC. The only counterplay to a basilisk is to kill it.

Maybe two identical gunlines, but ranged weapons have long ranges (36+") Medium Range (around 24") and Close Range (6-18") and they generally offer different counterplay depending on the other army. Even against extremely long ranged gunlines, the counterplay is to try to outfox your opponent by intentionally offering up certain units to get blown up so you can get what you really need to take them out into position (medium range and close range have even more counterplay as trying to keep them outside of their range while inside of your own threat range gives you some challenge).

Yes, different gunlines have different abilities.

The way I have been dealing with Conscript spam is not getting close to them. My CSM army is loaded up with lascannons, starts the game with 22 shots. The last game I played against Imperial Soup, the only thing my opponent had that had the distance to shoot me from 48+ inches was Earthshaker batteries. After taking out 2 of the 4 first turn, standing still and chewing up the rest of his army was pretty simple.

Not saying this would happen every game, but the range on a gunline is something people don't always think about. It's probably the most important factor.

This is what my list has turned into as well.

Martel732 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
This is an identical situation to long range static gunlines, except you have the option to back out of CC. The only counterplay to a basilisk is to kill it.

Maybe two identical gunlines, but ranged weapons have long ranges (36+") Medium Range (around 24") and Close Range (6-18") and they generally offer different counterplay depending on the other army. Even against extremely long ranged gunlines, the counterplay is to try to outfox your opponent by intentionally offering up certain units to get blown up so you can get what you really need to take them out into position (medium range and close range have even more counterplay as trying to keep them outside of their range while inside of your own threat range gives you some challenge).

Yes, different gunlines have different abilities.

The way I have been dealing with Conscript spam is not getting close to them. My CSM army is loaded up with lascannons, starts the game with 22 shots. The last game I played against Imperial Soup, the only thing my opponent had that had the distance to shoot me from 48+ inches was Earthshaker batteries. After taking out 2 of the 4 first turn, standing still and chewing up the rest of his army was pretty simple.

Not saying this would happen every game, but the range on a gunline is something people don't always think about. It's probably the most important factor.

This is what my list has turned into as well.

So what's the issue?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
All I see here are Marine players salty that their "anti everything 7ed death star lists" fail in 8th due to low model count being a hindrance.

I mean, if your facing a horde army you equip it with anti horde weapons. Complaining to us that your anti elite killer units don't work as well against hordes is going to cause you to get some stick.

There are no anti-horde weapons though.

Bad ones.

Twin AC
Quad HB rapiers
Hurricane Bolters
C-beam cannons
Grav flux bombards
Twin kheres assault cannons

Mortars
Punisher cannons
Gatling Cannons

Tesla
Massed gauss fire

Heavy Phosphor Blasters

5+ weirdboyz using d6 smites followed by a da jump charge

Warpfire? (honestly cant remember the name) Bolters

Every single one of the above has shredded my infantry, Conscripts or no, and I'm probably missing a few. Most of those are available to Marines, and even more are available via allies.

All of which are more point efficient towards Marines and Skitarii and Necrons?

Yep, it's one of the problems the game has with balancing hordes. The most efficient anti horde thing is a horde. And while things like dual assrazors work it's mostly because they're overturned themselves. Using morale as the anti horde mechanic is fine, but it only works if there are both ways for hordes to mitigate morale losses and for people to fight against that. Personally I don't think this commissars change was the right one, but it did accomplish the goal. That said other hordes I don't think have the same vulnerability, which is going to leave them in the broken or crappy category.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
This is an identical situation to long range static gunlines, except you have the option to back out of CC. The only counterplay to a basilisk is to kill it.

Maybe two identical gunlines, but ranged weapons have long ranges (36+") Medium Range (around 24") and Close Range (6-18") and they generally offer different counterplay depending on the other army. Even against extremely long ranged gunlines, the counterplay is to try to outfox your opponent by intentionally offering up certain units to get blown up so you can get what you really need to take them out into position (medium range and close range have even more counterplay as trying to keep them outside of their range while inside of your own threat range gives you some challenge).

Yes, different gunlines have different abilities.

The way I have been dealing with Conscript spam is not getting close to them. My CSM army is loaded up with lascannons, starts the game with 22 shots. The last game I played against Imperial Soup, the only thing my opponent had that had the distance to shoot me from 48+ inches was Earthshaker batteries. After taking out 2 of the 4 first turn, standing still and chewing up the rest of his army was pretty simple.

Not saying this would happen every game, but the range on a gunline is something people don't always think about. It's probably the most important factor.

This is what my list has turned into as well.

So what's the issue?

It's a list I hate, and one that will always be inferior to its vanilla counterparts.

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
This is an identical situation to long range static gunlines, except you have the option to back out of CC. The only counterplay to a basilisk is to kill it.

Maybe two identical gunlines, but ranged weapons have long ranges (36+") Medium Range (around 24") and Close Range (6-18") and they generally offer different counterplay depending on the other army. Even against extremely long ranged gunlines, the counterplay is to try to outfox your opponent by intentionally offering up certain units to get blown up so you can get what you really need to take them out into position (medium range and close range have even more counterplay as trying to keep them outside of their range while inside of your own threat range gives you some challenge).

Yes, different gunlines have different abilities.

The way I have been dealing with Conscript spam is not getting close to them. My CSM army is loaded up with lascannons, starts the game with 22 shots. The last game I played against Imperial Soup, the only thing my opponent had that had the distance to shoot me from 48+ inches was Earthshaker batteries. After taking out 2 of the 4 first turn, standing still and chewing up the rest of his army was pretty simple.

Not saying this would happen every game, but the range on a gunline is something people don't always think about. It's probably the most important factor.

This is what my list has turned into as well.

So what's the issue?

It's a list I hate, and one that will always be inferior to its vanilla counterparts.

No one likes having to tailor to specific threats, but that's sorta what this crazy diverse game is all about.

I personally just wish they would have a.) Brought back the Platoon structure, which IG players actually liked and that forced list diversity and made it impossible to spam just conscripts. b.) Made commissars significantly more expensive, commensurate with their outsized effects, or limit how many you can take or c.) Just simply drop them down to 1-2 wounds and make them much more vulnerable to snipers.

Snipers have gotten a lot better in this game and most armies have them, but their effectiveness is still limited by the fact that now suddenly even cheap, mundane characters have a ton of wounds.

Darkagl1 wrote:
Personally I don't think this commissars change was the right one, but it did accomplish the goal.

Sure, if the goal was never to see commissars used again. Deleting the unit entirely would have achieved the same result. My doubts at the new GW are vindicated. Conscripts interact with commissars in awkward fashion; nerf conscripts and delete commissars ensuring neither unit sees the table. Now back to our regularly scheduled program, the SM/Eldar show.

Nice that the new Eldar can apply the old commissar rule to their entire army for free without needing to worry about the opponent sniping the source.

Finding success though?

 MarsNZ wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:
Personally I don't think this commissars change was the right one, but it did accomplish the goal.

Sure, if the goal was never to see commissars used again. Deleting the unit entirely would have achieved the same result. My doubts at the new GW are vindicated. Conscripts interact with commissars in awkward fashion; nerf conscripts and delete commissars ensuring neither unit sees the table. Now back to our regularly scheduled program, the SM/Eldar show.

Nice that the new Eldar can apply the old commissar rule to their entire army for free without needing to worry about the opponent sniping the source.

Ah yes, the army with at minimum 8-9 point models.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Finding success though?

Not sure. I've actually only played vs Drukhari and GSC with my revamped list. Kinda wish I had more CC against those two :\ As long as there are not a ton of LoS blocking on the table, I should do better vs IG and UM gun line.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:
Personally I don't think this commissars change was the right one, but it did accomplish the goal.

Sure, if the goal was never to see commissars used again. Deleting the unit entirely would have achieved the same result. My doubts at the new GW are vindicated. Conscripts interact with commissars in awkward fashion; nerf conscripts and delete commissars ensuring neither unit sees the table. Now back to our regularly scheduled program, the SM/Eldar show.

Nice that the new Eldar can apply the old commissar rule to their entire army for free without needing to worry about the opponent sniping the source.

Ah yes, the army with at minimum 8-9 point models.

A Commissar comes in at 31 points minimum - and doesn't in and of himself contribute much to the fight. That means that you are paying 3 points per model on a 10 man squad of Infantry (now 7 points), Veterans (now 9 points), or Scions (now 13 points) if you are rolling him with one of them. All that for a +1 leadership and the chance to maybe lose less, or maybe lose more men.

That....doesn't look overly appealing.

Just faq the faq to make Commissars at least somewhat appealing to take to these units while maintaining the Conscript x Commissar nerf and all would be fine - otherwise it just seems much more worthwhile to scrounge for an extra 9 points and add an extra infantry squad.

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Finding success though?

Not sure. I've actually only played vs Drukhari and GSC with my revamped list. Kinda wish I had more CC against those two :\ As long as there are not a ton of LoS blocking on the table, I should do better vs IG and UM gun line.

Right on, right on. I wind up doing something similar for new armies or editions. I get that its boring, but getting a few successes with a baseline before adding the spice lets me know I've got a good fallback. BA dont have a codex, yadda, yadda, but I'll make no predictions on that front.

I'm sure many a UM player will tell you that Guilliman Razorspam is pretty boring, too. I would.

kurhanik wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:
Personally I don't think this commissars change was the right one, but it did accomplish the goal.

Sure, if the goal was never to see commissars used again. Deleting the unit entirely would have achieved the same result. My doubts at the new GW are vindicated. Conscripts interact with commissars in awkward fashion; nerf conscripts and delete commissars ensuring neither unit sees the table. Now back to our regularly scheduled program, the SM/Eldar show.

Nice that the new Eldar can apply the old commissar rule to their entire army for free without needing to worry about the opponent sniping the source.

Ah yes, the army with at minimum 8-9 point models.

A Commissar comes in at 31 points minimum - and doesn't in and of himself contribute much to the fight. That means that you are paying 3 points per model on a 10 man squad of Infantry (now 7 points), Veterans (now 9 points), or Scions (now 13 points) if you are rolling him with one of them. All that for a +1 leadership and the chance to maybe lose less, or maybe lose more men.

That....doesn't look overly appealing.

Just faq the faq to make Commissars at least somewhat appealing to take to these units while maintaining the Conscript x Commissar nerf and all would be fine - otherwise it just seems much more worthwhile to scrounge for an extra 9 points and add an extra infantry squad.

Not sure why you'd bother on Scions because 5 man squads are better. And then if you roll for 30 man Conscripts that's only 1 point a model with an extra left over for the Commisar.

Yea that is a weird point how anyone would want a commissar to reroll morale on scions. Morale doesn't matter, you're taking 5 man squads because that lets you get the most special weapons.

*Looks at his 3, 9-man scion squads+Commisar on Tauroxes Primes. Cries*

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
This is an identical situation to long range static gunlines, except you have the option to back out of CC. The only counterplay to a basilisk is to kill it.

Maybe two identical gunlines, but ranged weapons have long ranges (36+") Medium Range (around 24") and Close Range (6-18") and they generally offer different counterplay depending on the other army. Even against extremely long ranged gunlines, the counterplay is to try to outfox your opponent by intentionally offering up certain units to get blown up so you can get what you really need to take them out into position (medium range and close range have even more counterplay as trying to keep them outside of their range while inside of your own threat range gives you some challenge).

Yes, different gunlines have different abilities.

The way I have been dealing with Conscript spam is not getting close to them. My CSM army is loaded up with lascannons, starts the game with 22 shots. The last game I played against Imperial Soup, the only thing my opponent had that had the distance to shoot me from 48+ inches was Earthshaker batteries. After taking out 2 of the 4 first turn, standing still and chewing up the rest of his army was pretty simple.

Not saying this would happen every game, but the range on a gunline is something people don't always think about. It's probably the most important factor.

This is what my list has turned into as well.

So what's the issue?

Well, with regards to Astra Militarum, a few things.

- It's weird thinking Chaos can outshoot Guard. Total reversal from previous editions going back to 2nd.

- It speaks to the importance of range. In 8th edition, the longest guns win the first couple turns.

- In 8th edition, straight shootouts between gunlines are possible. No close combat required. It was kind of that way with Tau / Eldar going back to 6th edition, but now it's easier to do with other armies. Yes, I know Lascannons have always been 48 inches, but it's a lot easier to spam long range firepower this edition.

RogueApiary wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I find it pretty funny that all these IG guys were saying, "oh you pay all these points for marines but you get AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR, SO OP SPACE MARINES, remember <insert scenario> from <insert previous edition>, wow," now they get ATSKNF on their conscripts and it's "this ability sucks." LOL. Loving the tides of salt this thread is reaping.

You could run a 10 man assault squad. Lose 6 guys. Now, it's 8-(6+D6). You roll a 4. You're losing 2 models. You roll again. You get a 6. You lose the last 4. Bummer right? We've been dealing with this since 8th dropped.

You realize ATSKNF is optional, right? You can decide if the risk is worth it or not. The new Commissar rule goes off even if you failed by 1 and you lose an extra model in the bargain. I don't see how you can possibly look at those two rules and go "lol, it's the same as our rule guyz, lol IG are just whiny babies, salt mines 4thewin, lol."

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

kurhanik wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:
Personally I don't think this commissars change was the right one, but it did accomplish the goal.

Sure, if the goal was never to see commissars used again. Deleting the unit entirely would have achieved the same result. My doubts at the new GW are vindicated. Conscripts interact with commissars in awkward fashion; nerf conscripts and delete commissars ensuring neither unit sees the table. Now back to our regularly scheduled program, the SM/Eldar show.

Nice that the new Eldar can apply the old commissar rule to their entire army for free without needing to worry about the opponent sniping the source.

Ah yes, the army with at minimum 8-9 point models.

A Commissar comes in at 31 points minimum - and doesn't in and of himself contribute much to the fight. That means that you are paying 3 points per model on a 10 man squad of Infantry (now 7 points), Veterans (now 9 points), or Scions (now 13 points) if you are rolling him with one of them. All that for a +1 leadership and the chance to maybe lose less, or maybe lose more men.

That....doesn't look overly appealing.

Just faq the faq to make Commissars at least somewhat appealing to take to these units while maintaining the Conscript x Commissar nerf and all would be fine - otherwise it just seems much more worthwhile to scrounge for an extra 9 points and add an extra infantry squad.

Not sure why you'd bother on Scions because 5 man squads are better. And then if you roll for 30 man Conscripts that's only 1 point a model with an extra left over for the Commisar.

I noted already, with Conscripts, I have no issue with the nerf honestly, it needed to be patched. I think they just swung too far with all the other squads you might want to use. And I rather like Stormtroopers, so its always nice to have the option to have the Progenium class reunion on the battlefield without actively hurting me.

Quickjager wrote:Yea that is a weird point how anyone would want a commissar to reroll morale on scions. Morale doesn't matter, you're taking 5 man squads because that lets you get the most special weapons.

Um, unless I misread my codex, Tempestus Scions are 5-10 men strong - 5 is the baseline, not the mandatory number. And I could see running groups in a transport together, or a Commissar catching up with a unit that used deep strike the previous turn but wasn't deemed important enough to splat immediately. Not everyone defaults to 5 Scions, Plasma only mode.

Or you could take a 5 man command squad; 1 with a banner rest with plasma.

There is no incentive to bring 10 man Scions squads, you're IG you're going 2nd regardless. There is no combat squad equivalent. You can fit two 5 man squads in a single transport, since you're going to be removing the special weapons last anyway you can make the opponent split his fire making dice variance much more likely.

Commissar and Scions never made sense from a fluff or crunch perspective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its not like I don't like Scions, I have Psian Jackals with a Knight painted as one acting as support. The only connections commissars had with scions was they graduated from the same schola.

 techsoldaten wrote:
- In 8th edition, straight shootouts between gunlines are possible. No close combat required. It was kind of that way with Tau / Eldar going back to 6th edition, but now it's easier to do with other armies. Yes, I know Lascannons have always been 48 inches, but it's a lot easier to spam long range firepower this edition.

I think the take away from this is how important it is to have LoS blocking terrain. Far to many people do not utilize proper terrain.

Getting back to the latest FAQ, I'm hoping that GW takes another look at commissars. As they are post FAQ, there really is no point in fielding them. They are equally as likely to harm you as help you. The IG community warned GW about this months ago when the index first hit. That commissars need to be dealt with carefully or they go from awesome to worthless, and here we are.

I do find it interesting how quick GW was to absolutely destroy this unit entry due to concern trolls, while the valid criticisms of other unit entries went completely ignored. For example:

Platoon commanders - Why are these an elite slot? They will never be taken. If they shared HQ slot with company commanders they would be taken all the time. As they are they will rarely if ever be used.

Chimeras - In the running for the worst entry in the codex. Do not fulfill any requirements towards detachments to generate CP. Lost rear firing ports which in itself is a INSANE nerf, -1BS on the move, lost command vehicle & we now have to spend CP to issue orders from a chimera and lost amphibious rule. So let me see if I understand this correctly. A unit that needed a points reduction in 7th, INCREASED in points, lost almost all of its utility & its damage output decreased?

Overpowered units in a strong army are more of a problem than underpowed units in a strong army, it shouldn't be a surprise that the former gets addressed first. I'd love to see Mutilators (easily the worst unit in the CSM dex, possibly the worst Chaos unit period?) get the attention they need to be viable but I'm not going to be shocked if they give priority to tuning down Malefic Lords first.

 MarsNZ wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:
Personally I don't think this commissars change was the right one, but it did accomplish the goal.

Sure, if the goal was never to see commissars used again. Deleting the unit entirely would have achieved the same result. My doubts at the new GW are vindicated. Conscripts interact with commissars in awkward fashion; nerf conscripts and delete commissars ensuring neither unit sees the table. Now back to our regularly scheduled program, the SM/Eldar show.

Nice that the new Eldar can apply the old commissar rule to their entire army for free without needing to worry about the opponent sniping the source.

I mean the goal was making morale matter. They certainly accomished it. I fully acknowledge they did a gakky job of it and ruined commissars especially for non conscript squads, where a command squad with a banner is cheaper and can add special weapons too. New GW is certainly better than old GW and I hope in time they can be a bit more judicious in their changes.

Personally I think the best suggestion is blam a guy set die roll = 0. Never hurts, always helps, doesn't make conscripts immune. If that isn't enough on conscripts remove his command aura from working on conscripts.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
So, you want your basic power armor to basically be what a Dreadnought is currently, except that it still costs 13ppm?

Like I said earlier, they won't be satisfied until the basic marine can tank 3 lascannon shots per turn, Terminators leaping across the board to wipe entire hordes off the table, and characters granting rerolls to everything without CP cost.

Because Movie Marines.

Give us some multilasers, we getting somewhere

Someone summon Matt Ward. We need him.

If Ward was fused with Goto, we'd truly have something to fear.

The greatest power ever concived lol.

And yes more on topic.

Guard have gained alot recently. Yes the loss off blast markers has hurt Artillery in a way. No more massive pie plates of doom.

Tanks are alot more reliable. So is armoured hulls.

Plasma weapons are now dramatically less dangerous and very potant.

Things have changed alot for mechanical and AV heavy armies.

 jhe90 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
So, you want your basic power armor to basically be what a Dreadnought is currently, except that it still costs 13ppm?

Like I said earlier, they won't be satisfied until the basic marine can tank 3 lascannon shots per turn, Terminators leaping across the board to wipe entire hordes off the table, and characters granting rerolls to everything without CP cost.

Because Movie Marines.

Give us some multilasers, we getting somewhere

Someone summon Matt Ward. We need him.

If Ward was fused with Goto, we'd truly have something to fear.

The greatest power ever concived lol.

And yes more on topic.

Guard have gained alot recently. Yes the loss off blast markers has hurt Artillery in a way. No more massive pie plates of doom.

Tanks are alot more reliable. So is armoured hulls.

Plasma weapons are now dramatically less dangerous and very potant.

Things have changed alot for mechanical and AV heavy armies.

TBh for the guard pie plates had been holding them back for ages. An anti-tank pie plate would only ever get 1 hit in 7th which meant battlecannons, earthshakers, etc almost never made their points back. combine with how crazy brittle a 3HP leman russ was, IG tanks were kind of a pushover.

Now, a battlecannon hits a single target as much as it hits a large unit. Big loss for stuff like a single big blast anti infantry weapon or flamer, which would rely on the super edge case of getting 10 models under the template for a super-value single shot but amazing for weapons that wanted to aim at tanks in the first place.

the_scotsman wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
So, you want your basic power armor to basically be what a Dreadnought is currently, except that it still costs 13ppm?

Like I said earlier, they won't be satisfied until the basic marine can tank 3 lascannon shots per turn, Terminators leaping across the board to wipe entire hordes off the table, and characters granting rerolls to everything without CP cost.

Because Movie Marines.

Give us some multilasers, we getting somewhere

Someone summon Matt Ward. We need him.

If Ward was fused with Goto, we'd truly have something to fear.

The greatest power ever concived lol.

And yes more on topic.

Guard have gained alot recently. Yes the loss off blast markers has hurt Artillery in a way. No more massive pie plates of doom.

Tanks are alot more reliable. So is armoured hulls.

Plasma weapons are now dramatically less dangerous and very potant.

Things have changed alot for mechanical and AV heavy armies.

TBh for the guard pie plates had been holding them back for ages. An anti-tank pie plate would only ever get 1 hit in 7th which meant battlecannons, earthshakers, etc almost never made their points back. combine with how crazy brittle a 3HP leman russ was, IG tanks were kind of a pushover.

Now, a battlecannon hits a single target as much as it hits a large unit. Big loss for stuff like a single big blast anti infantry weapon or flamer, which would rely on the super edge case of getting 10 models under the template for a super-value single shot but amazing for weapons that wanted to aim at tanks in the first place.

True, that seems to fit alott better explained like that. Tanks and anti tank is improved.

Infantry targets, well D6 hits can be abit underwhelming etc.

Vindicator seemed to suffer that, though long range artillery gained some advantages to, so its been a mix.

its been abit of a mix on artillery and heavy duty guns.

Flamers against blobs still hurt, but when you get 8+ orks under eemmplates then you could make lot of points back very quickly.
a few cgood flmer shots could change a entire game.

I think a more elegant solution for commissars would be to shoot a guy to skip rolling a moral die. I know it's been mentioned before in the thread, but that idea just really appeals to me as a great compromise.

I don't think anyone has mentioned yet how they passed over vendettas getting the roving gunship rule (or a points reduction), meaning they will continue to not see any table tops.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
I think a more elegant solution for commissars would be to shoot a guy to skip rolling a moral die. I know it's been mentioned before in the thread, but that idea just really appeals to me as a great compromise.

You realize that would make his ability the equivalent of rolling a 1 for morale every time. Since you lose 1 dude anyways and the unit is probably taking more than a couple casualties.
.

Now you have to decide is that fair for the points and for the army?

Should it be d6 cut in half or 2d6 and take the lowest, etc

For me the always roll a 1 for the morale check seems a bit too good.

 admironheart wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
I think a more elegant solution for commissars would be to shoot a guy to skip rolling a moral die. I know it's been mentioned before in the thread, but that idea just really appeals to me as a great compromise.

You realize that would make his ability the equivalent of rolling a 1 for morale every time. Since you lose 1 dude anyways and the unit is probably taking more than a couple casualties.
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Now you have to decide is that fair for the points and for the army?

Should it be d6 cut in half or 2d6 and take the lowest, etc

For me the always roll a 1 for the morale check seems a bit too good.

It depends a lot on how the rule was actually written. As he proposed it, it isn't an option, so any turn you lose a casualty you would lose at least 1 additional model. As I understand it he is saying your morale test would always be losses + 0 for your morale test at the cost of one slain model. Which means the following

1.) if a squad loses any models during a turn, you lose at least 1 additional model. So a squad of Ogryn who lose 1 model automatically lose 2 models.
2.)If you lose more models during a turn than your LD you lose that number (x - LD)+ 1 to morale. So if you have a squad of 30 conscripts, and 15 die, you would lose 8 additional models. A regular morale check would be 8-14 losses.

It would really hurt smaller squads, now if you made it optional it might work ok, but otherwise would be a bad rule.