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Breng77 wrote:

Why can't they take relics. Sure they cannot take the warlord trait, but surely they can have relics. Also good chance this list was done and practiced prior to the new book for AM, so last minute changes are bad.

Codex: Astra Militarium, page 138:



I assume there's something similar at the top of all the relic sections in each codex. I can't be bothered to confirm.

Maybe he was thinking he could do 12 mortal wounds to a daemon primarch with his GK portion? I mean i dunno. The list is measurably weaker than the typical winning AM list. The best answer would be he's trying to get "Best Grey Knights player" for 2017.

 Marmatag wrote:
Maybe he was thinking he could do 12 mortal wounds to a daemon primarch with his GK portion? I mean i dunno. The list is measurably weaker than the typical winning AM list. The best answer would be he's trying to get "Best Grey Knights player" for 2017.

You can tell it's measurably weaker than the typical winning AM list because it probably beat a ton of copies of that AM list in its climb up the rankings.

Oh wait. That means it's stronger not weaker. Silly me.

 daedalus wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Why can't they take relics. Sure they cannot take the warlord trait, but surely they can have relics. Also good chance this list was done and practiced prior to the new book for AM, so last minute changes are bad.

Codex: Astra Militarium, page 138:



I assume there's something similar at the top of all the relic sections in each codex. I can't be bothered to confirm.

I have heard people say that even if your warlord is not an Guard character you can buy Guard relics with Command Points anyway.
So no need to waste your warlord on a Guard model and instead you can make a dreadknight beatstick better.

The reason he took a GMDK warlord is because the greyknight warlord trait that allows for reroll charges is basically mandatory for greyknights models. It increases your chance of charging turn 1 to about 40%.

The synergy between GK and AM is huge. GK stratgems are awesome but they can't produce the command points. AM can produce command points but don't have anything particularly great to spend them on (nor do they need to anyways). GK's also need backfeild units so they can deepstrike their heavy elements into battle - AM no only offers backfeild - they offer OP as feth backfield units which are even more important to kill than your GMDK. What do GK offer AM they couldn't get on their own? Nothing really - the GK could be removed and units within their own codex will fill the hole equally well or better in most cases. For the cost of those GKGM - you could include 5 russ commanders and just blow your enemy up turn 1. I fail to see any advantage of not going full guard.

I probably should point out that the warlord wasn't the Grand Master in Dreadknight. It was the Librarian.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The reason he took a GMDK warlord is because the greyknight warlord trait that allows for reroll charges is basically mandatory for greyknights models. It increases your chance of charging turn 1 to about 40%.

The synergy between GK and AM is huge. GK stratgems are awesome but they can't produce the command points. AM can produce command points but don't have anything particularly great to spend them on (nor do they need to anyways). GK's also need backfeild units so they can deepstrike their heavy elements into battle - AM no only offers backfeild - they offer OP as feth backfield units which are even more important to kill than your GMDK. What do GK offer AM they couldn't get on their own? Nothing really - the GK could be removed and units within their own codex will fill the hole equally well or better in most cases. For the cost of those GKGM - you could include 5 russ commanders and just blow your enemy up turn 1. I fail to see any advantage of not going full guard.

I'd pass on the Russ Commanders. They still aren't good.]

A GMNDK definitely could have some purpose for the Guard, but he'd need supporting assets from his own book, and I'd be hesitant to invest in any real backup for him.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I probably should point out that the warlord wasn't the Grand Master in Dreadknight. It was the Librarian.

Well - it produces the same affect - though - I use the DKGM because his base is bigger and gives me more bubble range. I fully expect for my warlord to die when I play GK - so hiding my Warlord just doesn't make sense - kind of like it also doesn't make sense to include a GK librarian EVER. A paladin ancient or a brother captain is better in every way in this supreme command setup. In all honesty he'd be better with a unit of 3 paladins than any-other HQ or elite choice anyways.

Ordana wrote:

I have heard people say that even if your warlord is not an Guard character you can buy Guard relics with Command Points anyway.

I have mixed feelings about that, but that'd fall into a YMDC thread. I don't hold up games at tournaments with rules questions normally, but I probably be asking the TO about that one pretty quickly.

So no need to waste your warlord on a Guard model and instead you can make a dreadknight beatstick better.

Actually, the librarian is warlord. Looks like he went with First to the Fray, which is probably what I would have done.

I'm guessing that he played it smart, and used all the mortars to clean out any enemy screens that came along, leaving nothing for the enemy long range stuff to really shoot at, and then deep struck when it was clear, going all in for the melee the moment they hit the table. Scions and GMDK weapons poke holes in transports if needed, and then whatever is convenient/closest gets assaulted.

Powers on the libby were GoI and Sanctuary. GoI is a no brainer. I don't know if I get sanctuary though, but I'm not sure I could pick a better one since the GMDK had most of the others.

I also don't get the SWS, but maybe that was just a point filler with things he had painted already?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Maybe he was thinking he could do 12 mortal wounds to a daemon primarch with his GK portion? I mean i dunno. The list is measurably weaker than the typical winning AM list. The best answer would be he's trying to get "Best Grey Knights player" for 2017.

You can tell it's measurably weaker than the typical winning AM list because it probably beat a ton of copies of that AM list in its climb up the rankings.

Oh wait. That means it's stronger not weaker. Silly me.

No, its because it has MARINES in it Unit.

If an army has IG in it, that makes it a stronger list. But if you include marines, and beat IG, that means your list is weak and you won through pure chance and/or application of superior intelligence.

Life is so much more calming and relaxing when any data, no matter whether or not it supports the hypothesis, can be made to support the hypothesis through wanting it to.

This is the second time I've seen Xenomancers say a high-placing list at a tournament has a unit that is irredeemably bad and has no possible reason to be in a list.

I am beginning to question his understanding of Warhammer 40,000.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This is the second time I've seen Xenomancers say a high-placing list at a tournament has a unit that is irredeemably bad and has no possible reason to be in a list.

I am beginning to question his understanding of Warhammer 40,000.

It's really weird to me, because he seems to genuinely get it in the first half of the of the statement, but then the second half somehow arrives at the utterly opposite conclusion from the reality of the tournament's outcome.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The reason he took a GMDK warlord is because the greyknight warlord trait that allows for reroll charges is basically mandatory for greyknights models. It increases your chance of charging turn 1 to about 40%.

The synergy between GK and AM is huge. GK stratgems are awesome but they can't produce the command points. AM can produce command points but don't have anything particularly great to spend them on (nor do they need to anyways). GK's also need backfeild units so they can deepstrike their heavy elements into battle - AM no only offers backfeild - they offer OP as feth backfield units which are even more important to kill than your GMDK. What do GK offer AM they couldn't get on their own? Nothing really - the GK could be removed and units within their own codex will fill the hole equally well or better in most cases. For the cost of those GKGM - you could include 5 russ commanders and just blow your enemy up turn 1. I fail to see any advantage of not going full guard.

I'd pass on the Russ Commanders. They still aren't good.]

A GMNDK definitely could have some purpose for the Guard, but he'd need supporting assets from his own book, and I'd be hesitant to invest in any real backup for him.

That's the thing that's great about GMDK - they don't need support - they support themselves. It would be great to surround themselves with strike squad marines but that's just to expensive. How are LR commanders not good? With a huge AM army in front of them they will never get assaulted. They have T8 and 12 wounds which is respectable and their firepower is pretty much better than any tank near their point cost...A battle cannon with 2d6 str 8 ap-2 d3 damage shots is great vs everything. Throw on a las cannon and 2 HB and a stubber for good messure. Just table armies. Is it really much better than a manticore? Not by much but they edge them out with use orders and strategems. That's saying a lot too - manticores are one of the biggest problem units in the game.

If the local shop mislabels the Dreadknights again, I am totally making an army of them. I just need to fix the dang baby carrier.

 daedalus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This is the second time I've seen Xenomancers say a high-placing list at a tournament has a unit that is irredeemably bad and has no possible reason to be in a list.

I am beginning to question his understanding of Warhammer 40,000.

It's really weird to me, because he seems to genuinely get it in the first half of the of the statement, but then the second half somehow arrives at the utterly opposite conclusion from the reality of the tournament's outcome.

I get it man. GK work great with AM. It doesn't change the fact that AM can be just as good and maybe even better just by using their own units. GKGM are really good - if greyknights could ignore the deployment rules and deepstrike their whole army they would be a top tier army. It would just be a bunch of GMGM and strike squad marines running around though. I am bitter about it but I can remain objective - GK are worthless without AM and AM can beat the best soup list you can come up with easily. It's just the way it is man. Why you pay less for your units to get more that's just the end result.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This is the second time I've seen Xenomancers say a high-placing list at a tournament has a unit that is irredeemably bad and has no possible reason to be in a list.

I am beginning to question his understanding of Warhammer 40,000.

If you think I'm talking out of my butt - go to the GK tactics form and see what actual GK players think about librarians.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Maybe he was thinking he could do 12 mortal wounds to a daemon primarch with his GK portion? I mean i dunno. The list is measurably weaker than the typical winning AM list. The best answer would be he's trying to get "Best Grey Knights player" for 2017.

You can tell it's measurably weaker than the typical winning AM list because it probably beat a ton of copies of that AM list in its climb up the rankings.

Oh wait. That means it's stronger not weaker. Silly me.

I just wanted to highlight a giant assumption.

Back to your regularly scheduled defending of the editions most op faction.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
If the local shop mislabels the Dreadknights again, I am totally making an army of them. I just need to fix the dang baby carrier.

Yeah it's the same thing for russes too. They should be called LR commanders as well.

 master of ordinance wrote:
So, how have people been doing with the Guard post-FAQ? Is anything standing out as really strong or really weak?

Comissars are a serious threat to your own infantry - I've just dropped them and replaced them with ministorum priests (I'm using Catachan) to avoid any more 3 models masscares from the double tap. If not running catachans you can probably swap a regimental standard into your command squad and still be good & save points.

I stopped using conscripts after the first nerf, but the other IG players is still using them. Commisars summary execution has the least effect on conscript squads, so his list hasn't changed much. I suspect he'll eventually go the standard 40pt squad route like me pretty soon. The extra BS is completly worth the points and it's safer to have your morale checks in smaller squads that are more immune to running.

Leman Russ tanks are the hotness right now - Vanquishers are still terrible all or nothing units, but the battle cannon is shining. As a Catachan player I've largely started using the D6 attack options (battle cannon, plasma cannon, etc.)

Hellhounds are still fantastic. They get to reroll one of their attack dice in catachan so they've been pure money for me.

The standard infantry flamer is still only getting used when AM is charged, but vicious traps is nice. Despite all the fear of ambush, no one has picked tallarn for their long term AM regiment

Heh. Only comment from that spiky bits article about the army lists:

If Justin Gibbs was running Grey Knights because he took a supreme command of them behind a conscript + yarrik wall, then that alpha legion list should have been filed under "malefic lord" or "cheeky psychic gits"

I fething hate the 40k community.

 daedalus wrote:
Heh. Only comment from that spiky bits article about the army lists:

If Justin Gibbs was running Grey Knights because he took a supreme command of them behind a conscript + yarrik wall, then that alpha legion list should have been filed under "malefic lord" or "cheeky psychic gits"

I fething hate the 40k community.

Hate the game not the community. The community wanted a balanced game and that's not what they got. Imperial armies that don't include a core of AM are not viable. people are upset about it.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Heh. Only comment from that spiky bits article about the army lists:

If Justin Gibbs was running Grey Knights because he took a supreme command of them behind a conscript + yarrik wall, then that alpha legion list should have been filed under "malefic lord" or "cheeky psychic gits"

I fething hate the 40k community.

Hate the game not the community. The community wanted a balanced game and that's not what they got. Imperial armies that don't include a core of AM are not viable. people are upset about it.

by this standard seemingly few or no IG armies are winning events without allies and bits from other armies either...

The big consistent thing is, much like 7th, superfriends lists exploiting synergies that were not intended because armies are still designed as self contained forces but can be taken and built ala-carte from anywhere.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Heh. Only comment from that spiky bits article about the army lists:

If Justin Gibbs was running Grey Knights because he took a supreme command of them behind a conscript + yarrik wall, then that alpha legion list should have been filed under "malefic lord" or "cheeky psychic gits"

I fething hate the 40k community.

Hate the game not the community. The community wanted a balanced game and that's not what they got. Imperial armies that don't include a core of AM are not viable. people are upset about it.

by this standard seemingly few or no IG armies are winning events without allies and bits from other armies either...

The big consistent thing is, much like 7th, superfriends lists exploiting synergies that were not intended because armies are still designed as self contained forces but can be taken and built ala-carte from anywhere.

Give it time. A lot of these results are pre codex before literally every unit in the IG codex got buffed. I have a pretty good knowledge of imperial armies. I'd be hard pressed to include anything but AM units at this point if I was playing strictly to win. It's also fair to assume that a lot of the people playing AM with allies actually prefer to play the army they are allying AM with.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Heh. Only comment from that spiky bits article about the army lists:

If Justin Gibbs was running Grey Knights because he took a supreme command of them behind a conscript + yarrik wall, then that alpha legion list should have been filed under "malefic lord" or "cheeky psychic gits"

I fething hate the 40k community.

Hate the game not the community. The community wanted a balanced game and that's not what they got. Imperial armies that don't include a core of AM are not viable. people are upset about it.

Fine. Be upset. Do you see how irrationally blind that emotion is making people though?

The list he's complaining about is that GK/AM list we've been discussing. This one:


It's on the page he made the comment, that he's referring to by the player's name. He looks at that list and he sees conscripts in that list. He must. I don't see any conscripts in that list. Do you? He thinks that the GK
faction is going to be hiding behind the conscripts (that don't exist in the list). Stop and seriously think about that for a while.

He's so completely lost in his own paralyzing fixation on this imaginary movie playing through his head about things he thinks he knows about IG. He's SO fixated on these things that he "knows" to be true that he literally can't see that they're entirely inapplicable to the list.

It's cemented my thought from some time ago. There's nothing that could be done with or to the AM codex at this point that would change the movie people have playing in their brains convincing them that it's unstoppable. It's stopped being a topic of conversation, and it's a bullet point utterly solidified by faith. It's a religion.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Hate the game not the community. The community wanted a balanced game and that's not what they got. Imperial armies that don't include a core of AM are not viable. people are upset about it.

Well, I mean except for Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, AdMech. All of which traditionally don't need AM Infantry in their list to work.

Inquisition/Assassins needs AM since they lack valid troop choices. Grey Knights have always benefitted from including a cheaper faction and would probably be loading up on space marines if you succeed in nerfing AM to uselessness.

Am I forgetting a faction?

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Hate the game not the community. The community wanted a balanced game and that's not what they got. Imperial armies that don't include a core of AM are not viable. people are upset about it.

Well, I mean except for Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, AdMech. All of which traditionally don't need AM Infantry in their list to work.

Inquisition/Assassins needs AM since they lack valid troop choices. Grey Knights have always benefitted from including a cheaper faction and would probably be loading up on space marines if you succeed in nerfing AM to uselessness.

Am I forgetting a faction?

You seem to be forgetting that AM infantry are hands down better than those other armies infantry. Also - space marine infantry is trash.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Heh. Only comment from that spiky bits article about the army lists:

If Justin Gibbs was running Grey Knights because he took a supreme command of them behind a conscript + yarrik wall, then that alpha legion list should have been filed under "malefic lord" or "cheeky psychic gits"

I fething hate the 40k community.

Hate the game not the community. The community wanted a balanced game and that's not what they got. Imperial armies that don't include a core of AM are not viable. people are upset about it.

Thank you. I didn't sign up to play Astra Militarum.

I read that the FW Conqueror and Annihilator LR tanks now have access to the shoots twice Grinding Advance rules, can anyone verify this?

I tried asking in the AM Tactics thread but that's become a cluster-feth since the FAQ nerfed conscripts back to the stoneage.

 daedalus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Heh. Only comment from that spiky bits article about the army lists:

If Justin Gibbs was running Grey Knights because he took a supreme command of them behind a conscript + yarrik wall, then that alpha legion list should have been filed under "malefic lord" or "cheeky psychic gits"

I fething hate the 40k community.

Hate the game not the community. The community wanted a balanced game and that's not what they got. Imperial armies that don't include a core of AM are not viable. people are upset about it.

Fine. Be upset. Do you see how irrationally blind that emotion is making people though?

The list he's complaining about is that GK/AM list we've been discussing. This one:

Spoiler:

It's on the page he made the comment, that he's referring to by the player's name. He looks at that list and he sees conscripts in that list. He must. I don't see any conscripts in that list. Do you? He thinks that the GK
faction is going to be hiding behind the conscripts (that don't exist in the list). Stop and seriously think about that for a while.

He's so completely lost in his own paralyzing fixation on this imaginary movie playing through his head about things he thinks he knows about IG. He's SO fixated on these things that he "knows" to be true that he literally can't see that they're entirely inapplicable to the list.

It's cemented my thought from some time ago. There's nothing that could be done with or to the AM codex at this point that would change the movie people have playing in their brains convincing them that it's unstoppable. It's stopped being a topic of conversation, and it's a bullet point utterly solidified by faith. It's a religion.

I understand your frustration with people- realistically though the guy isn't wrong - Just about every unit in the AM codex is under-pointed so just sub conscripts with infantry and his point is the same. Though seeing some of the eldar reviews now - I think this is the standard going forward. GK and space marines just got left out of having a viable codex except for maybe 1 viable build each. (AM robots spam - Guilliman - supreme command GMDK) hopefully this will all be fixed with chapter approved. BTW when the eldar codex drops a lot of heat will come off AM. Eldar has a lot of units dropping 30-40% in cost.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Hate the game not the community. The community wanted a balanced game and that's not what they got. Imperial armies that don't include a core of AM are not viable. people are upset about it.

Well, I mean except for Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, AdMech. All of which traditionally don't need AM Infantry in their list to work.

Inquisition/Assassins needs AM since they lack valid troop choices. Grey Knights have always benefitted from including a cheaper faction and would probably be loading up on space marines if you succeed in nerfing AM to uselessness.

Am I forgetting a faction?

You seem to be forgetting that AM infantry are hands down better than those other armies infantry. Also - space marine infantry is trash.

Wheren't Scouts pretty damm good by your own metrics?

 More Dakka wrote:
I read that the FW Conqueror and Annihilator LR tanks now have access to the shoots twice Grinding Advance rules, can anyone verify this?

I tried asking in the AM Tactics thread but that's become a cluster-feth since the FAQ nerfed conscripts back to the stoneage.

Wasn't aware there was a FW erratas. However - in any case unless they can be LR commanders they will never be picked.