Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

A nice way to fix this is to simply halve the effectiveness of modifiers. If we swapped rolling to hit and wound and saves with D12s mapped to the correct numbers, we can halve the % effect of modifiers to make them important but not so effective as to make things literally unhitable.

Basically, anywhere that needs a 2+ right now to hit, wound or save would instead need a 3+ on a D12, 3+ to 5+, 4+ to 7+, 5+ to 9+ and 6+ to 11+

This would keep the base percentages the same while reducing the impact of modifiers but not making them totally meaningless.

tneva82 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

pismakron wrote:
This problem is not caused by negative hit-modifiers, and meddling about with hit-modifiers will do nothing to fix that.

How could negative hit modifiers not be a huge problem? A single modifier instantly cuts the ork unit in half.

How do you balance a unit if it is literally twice as strong in game 1 as it was in game 2? If a loota is correctly balanced at 16 points, a single negative modified changes it's balance point instantly to 8.

This is a fatal problem. Should the loota be 16 or 8 points? GW can never balance that unit, because they do not know which opponent you are playing. Unless GW creates variable point values, the existence of army wide -1 to hit rules makes for an insolvable problem in pricing lootas and other shooting units.

The other issue here...if the orks are pointed at a middle ground, guess which traits your opponent will pick...the one that turns your 2000 point army into a 1300 point army or the one that turns your 2000 point army into a 2600 point army? In either case the game is simply not fun. Why do we play the game if it isn't fun?

Applying a linear modified to a geometric system is THE problem, one no amount of balancing can ever fix.

All armies suffer from paying too much for shooting by that logic. Or is it that orks are special snowflakes so THEY deserve point break for suffering from BS modifiers but not others that also suffer from BS modifiers...

Sounds like you just want orks hitting on same roll as everybody else. Why even have different BS then? As it is BS values are too standard as well.

Armies should be different and not just me same with different models. There's other ways to fix issue than just making every army have same BS stat.

Total ignorance. Marines lose 25 precent of their shooting with -1. Guard and tau and nids lose 33. Orks lose 50 precent. Does it sound fair an army trait should lower the value of your shooting units 50 precent. What about hard to hit flyers with stupid firepower. Marines hit them half as much, but at least CAN destroy them if they absolutley need them dead. Orks cannot even shoot at it, period. You cant just look at what else is in the potential codex. Oh they are still good in melee. Well so is a dedicated space wolf build with dreads and riders and what have you. They can choose to bring all assault too.

Half the index entries are dedicated shooting. You are saying you are ok with half the codex being unplayable in situations, not "poor choices" but unplayable. And stop with the snowflake buzzword bs. Legitimate issues are not snowflake complaints. It just makes you look like a hater.

 Blackie wrote:
But that would be a SM profile. Orks models with 1W should always have 6+ save and bs5+ IMHO

Your opinion is wrong and does not match with the lore, where there's a number of Ork Boyz that wear "'Eavy Armor" that in previous editions counted as a 4+ save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orock wrote:
And stop with the snowflake buzzword bs. Legitimate issues are not snowflake complaints. It just makes you look like a hater.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

 Orock wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

pismakron wrote:
This problem is not caused by negative hit-modifiers, and meddling about with hit-modifiers will do nothing to fix that.

How could negative hit modifiers not be a huge problem? A single modifier instantly cuts the ork unit in half.

How do you balance a unit if it is literally twice as strong in game 1 as it was in game 2? If a loota is correctly balanced at 16 points, a single negative modified changes it's balance point instantly to 8.

This is a fatal problem. Should the loota be 16 or 8 points? GW can never balance that unit, because they do not know which opponent you are playing. Unless GW creates variable point values, the existence of army wide -1 to hit rules makes for an insolvable problem in pricing lootas and other shooting units.

The other issue here...if the orks are pointed at a middle ground, guess which traits your opponent will pick...the one that turns your 2000 point army into a 1300 point army or the one that turns your 2000 point army into a 2600 point army? In either case the game is simply not fun. Why do we play the game if it isn't fun?

Applying a linear modified to a geometric system is THE problem, one no amount of balancing can ever fix.

All armies suffer from paying too much for shooting by that logic. Or is it that orks are special snowflakes so THEY deserve point break for suffering from BS modifiers but not others that also suffer from BS modifiers...

Sounds like you just want orks hitting on same roll as everybody else. Why even have different BS then? As it is BS values are too standard as well.

Armies should be different and not just me same with different models. There's other ways to fix issue than just making every army have same BS stat.

Total ignorance. Marines lose 25 precent of their shooting with -1. Guard and tau and nids lose 33. Orks lose 50 precent. Does it sound fair an army trait should lower the value of your shooting units 50 precent. What about hard to hit flyers with stupid firepower. Marines hit them half as much, but at least CAN destroy them if they absolutley need them dead. Orks cannot even shoot at it, period. You cant just look at what else is in the potential codex. Oh they are still good in melee. Well so is a dedicated space wolf build with dreads and riders and what have you. They can choose to bring all assault too.

Half the index entries are dedicated shooting. You are saying you are ok with half the codex being unplayable in situations, not "poor choices" but unplayable. And stop with the snowflake buzzword bs. Legitimate issues are not snowflake complaints. It just makes you look like a hater.

Unplayable? -2 to shooting is a super rare occurrence.

Okay, folks. I don't have access to all the new codices. How many units exactly are stacking to -2? Not that -1 isn't awful for Orks to begin with. Because D6.

The first time your unit of 30 boyz gets charged by stygies dragoons because they are minus 2 to shoot at range and get wiped to the model ypu will remember.

Lets not forget tau are on the way and could well have a homeworld with the -1 to hit. How about stealth suits that you cant shoot under any circumstances as orks. I would run a crapload of stealth suits at -2 to hit.

 Orock wrote:
The first time your unit of 30 boyz gets charged by stygies dragoons because they are minus 2 to shoot at range and get wiped to the model ypu will remember.

Lets not forget tau are on the way and could well have a homeworld with the -1 to hit. How about stealth suits that you cant shoot under any circumstances as orks. I would run a crapload of stealth suits at -2 to hit.

Yep. It's pretty typical that most non-ork players don't mind fighting an opponent who is forced (through no fault of their own) to be bs 7+. Pretty dang typical.

The -1 to hit modifiers shouldn't stack with each other at all, really.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Orock wrote:
The first time your unit of 30 boyz gets charged by stygies dragoons because they are minus 2 to shoot at range and get wiped to the model ypu will remember.

Lets not forget tau are on the way and could well have a homeworld with the -1 to hit. How about stealth suits that you cant shoot under any circumstances as orks. I would run a crapload of stealth suits at -2 to hit.

Yep. It's pretty typical that most non-ork players don't mind fighting an opponent who is forced (through no fault of their own) to be bs 7+. Pretty dang typical.

Just had a game the other day with deep striking alpha legion obliterators who landed near changling. Thats another -2. Eldar fighters can be-2. Eldar rangers. Even if we leave out things like these that are completely protected at range, is it fair for a no points cost ability to reduce enemy firepower by 50 precent? What if orks got an army wide -1 to hit them in melee. What if a unit that could be 30 strong, teleport next to you rerolling charges with 3 or 4 attacks each could then spend a command point to make that -2 till next turn. Would that be fair? Probably not to tau, doubt guard would have fun either, or most tyranids now hitting on 6's. Kind of dumb for a melee army to suddenly hit on 6.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay, folks. I don't have access to all the new codices. How many units exactly are stacking to -2? Not that -1 isn't awful for Orks to begin with. Because D6.

Just from the top of my head:
- Raven guard fliers and vehicles with smoke launchers
- Ultra marine fliers buffed by Tigurius
- Wave Sperpents, Vypers and Rangers either Alaitoc or with Warlock power
- Ghostkeel
- DG land raiders and rhinos using their smoke launchers buffed with cloud of flies
- AM fliers and smoke launcher vehicles buffed with nightshroud

Basically whenever a "natural" -1 to hit meets an army wide rule or a buff that does the same. It's pretty easy to make fliers or transports with deadly cargo immune to ork shooting.

 Jidmah wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Okay, folks. I don't have access to all the new codices. How many units exactly are stacking to -2? Not that -1 isn't awful for Orks to begin with. Because D6.

Just from the top of my head:
- Raven guard fliers and vehicles with smoke launchers
- Ultra marine fliers buffed by Tigurius
- Wave Sperpents, Vypers and Rangers either Alaitoc or with Warlock power
- Ghostkeel
- DG land raiders and rhinos using their smoke launchers buffed with cloud of flies
- AM fliers and smoke launcher vehicles buffed with nightshroud

Basically whenever a "natural" -1 to hit meets an army wide rule or a buff that does the same. It's pretty easy to make fliers or transports with deadly cargo immune to ork shooting.

1. Raven Guard fliers and vehicles don't get the -1 to hit in the first place.
2. The Death Guard example requires a Strategem to use on ONE unit.
3. The Imperial Guard example requires a Psyker power to go off on ONE unit.
4. The Tiggy one is an okay example but each unit needs to be 6" away from him. Fliers need to constantly move so not much to say on that.

So most of your examples are non-issues and literally you not knowing rules and therefore complaining to complain.

Also the fact orks even with -1 can't advance and shoot with their assualt weapons. A loota can't even just move because it has heavy weapons. So their -1 has just negated the entire point of having assualt weapons. We might as well be rapid fire at that point while other factions can move advance and all sorts yet still fire tgeir none assault weapons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. Raven Guard fliers and vehicles don't get the -1 to hit in the first place.
2. The Death Guard example requires a Strategem to use on ONE unit.
3. The Imperial Guard example requires a Psyker power to go off on ONE unit.
4. The Tiggy one is an okay example but each unit needs to be 6" away from him. Fliers need to constantly move so not much to say on that.

So most of your examples are non-issues and literally you not knowing rules and therefore complaining to complain.

Sure, raven guard was a mistake, all other were correct. Your definition of "most" is not what "most" people agree on what "most" means.

I'd pay all the CP I have to make a battlewagon with Thrakka, Grotznik, and unit of nobz invulnerable to shooting for a turn. DG can do just that to a land raider or rhino. Also to predators, but that's objectively pretty useless.

The Tigurius example was used by the very list that won the Heat tournament.

So all other examples are viable - how many units in the game can literally not be shot by any space marines, tau or IG?

 Orock wrote:

Total ignorance. Marines lose 25 precent of their shooting with -1. Guard and tau and nids lose 33. Orks lose 50 precent. Does it sound fair an army trait should lower the value of your shooting units 50 precent. What about hard to hit flyers with stupid firepower. Marines hit them half as much, but at least CAN destroy them if they absolutley need them dead. Orks cannot even shoot at it, period. You cant just look at what else is in the potential codex. Oh they are still good in melee. Well so is a dedicated space wolf build with dreads and riders and what have you. They can choose to bring all assault too.

Half the index entries are dedicated shooting. You are saying you are ok with half the codex being unplayable in situations, not "poor choices" but unplayable. And stop with the snowflake buzzword bs. Legitimate issues are not snowflake complaints. It just makes you look like a hater.

Total immunity isnt' good and that's why game wise always hits on 6 would be good. But idea that orks should just ignore modifiers is stupid idea.

And no half the index ISN'T dedicated to shooting. Don't twist and lie. I have big as hell ork army so don't try to claim something that isn't even true. Unless you of course go for stupid idea that different mek guns count as different entries but on that logic I say nob with power klaw is different to nob with big choppa.

Only change needed is universal 6 to hit rule and point tweaks. Do that and issues comes away. My orks do just fine shooting wise as it is provided I don't run into -2 to hit(and yes that is problem. 100% incapabability is bad. That's why universal 6 to hit should be. Universal because orks shouldn't be special snowflakes while leaving other BS5+ guys suffering).

You're clearly racist against Orks.

Other than conscripts, what other BS 5 units are there, that see any use on the tabletop ?

Also, your argument has broken down to it's unfair that Orks get immunity to negative modifiers because it would diminish the units that have negatives to hit, but you are advocating a change to tje core rules, which is less likely to happen, that would give every unit in the game a blanket cap to those same rules, diminishing those units verses everything in the game, while still leaving them crippling against Orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly, the simplest and best solution to all these problems is to make Orks BS 4 again.

Orks would be no worse off verses negative modifiers than most armies, they'd become more competitive, and they wouldn't be overcosted anymore.

The only other faction that uses 5+ to hit units to any serious extent is guard with conscripts. There are some units with lower to-hit than that but a lot of them don't even have ranged weapons to begin with.

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. Raven Guard fliers and vehicles don't get the -1 to hit in the first place.
2. The Death Guard example requires a Strategem to use on ONE unit.
3. The Imperial Guard example requires a Psyker power to go off on ONE unit.
4. The Tiggy one is an okay example but each unit needs to be 6" away from him. Fliers need to constantly move so not much to say on that.

So most of your examples are non-issues and literally you not knowing rules and therefore complaining to complain.

Sure, raven guard was a mistake, all other were correct. Your definition of "most" is not what "most" people agree on what "most" means.

I'd pay all the CP I have to make a battlewagon with Thrakka, Grotznik, and unit of nobz invulnerable to shooting for a turn. DG can do just that to a land raider or rhino. Also to predators, but that's objectively pretty useless.

The Tigurius example was used by the very list that won the Heat tournament.

So all other examples are viable - how many units in the game can literally not be shot by any space marines, tau or IG?

Pretty sure Wave Serpents don't get -1 to hit also. Overall, I think that these things should stack in only the rarest of situations (like Ghostkeels, that's the gimmick)

we can probably dial it down a wee bit yeah ?

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. Raven Guard fliers and vehicles don't get the -1 to hit in the first place.
2. The Death Guard example requires a Strategem to use on ONE unit.
3. The Imperial Guard example requires a Psyker power to go off on ONE unit.
4. The Tiggy one is an okay example but each unit needs to be 6" away from him. Fliers need to constantly move so not much to say on that.

So most of your examples are non-issues and literally you not knowing rules and therefore complaining to complain.

Sure, raven guard was a mistake, all other were correct. Your definition of "most" is not what "most" people agree on what "most" means.

I'd pay all the CP I have to make a battlewagon with Thrakka, Grotznik, and unit of nobz invulnerable to shooting for a turn. DG can do just that to a land raider or rhino. Also to predators, but that's objectively pretty useless.

The Tigurius example was used by the very list that won the Heat tournament.

So all other examples are viable - how many units in the game can literally not be shot by any space marines, tau or IG?

1. It also proves how ignorant you are for the other side of the argument. You can't prove a point if you have to make stuff up. Speaking of which, Cloud Of Flies has nothing to do with this either. So knock that one off too. So no, your post isn't really correct.
2. So don't shoot the Astra flier or vehicle? How many smoke launched vehicles from the IG are you afraid of when they get the power once per turn? This is a silly complaint.
3. You don't even have your codex out yet. Who knows what Strategems you're going to be getting?
4. Post the Ultramarines list then. Let's see how much of a bonus the -2 to hit comes into play.

So you not only can't name a lot of units or armies, you also made stuff up. Great chatting with ya.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. Raven Guard fliers and vehicles don't get the -1 to hit in the first place.
2. The Death Guard example requires a Strategem to use on ONE unit.
3. The Imperial Guard example requires a Psyker power to go off on ONE unit.
4. The Tiggy one is an okay example but each unit needs to be 6" away from him. Fliers need to constantly move so not much to say on that.

So most of your examples are non-issues and literally you not knowing rules and therefore complaining to complain.

Sure, raven guard was a mistake, all other were correct. Your definition of "most" is not what "most" people agree on what "most" means.

I'd pay all the CP I have to make a battlewagon with Thrakka, Grotznik, and unit of nobz invulnerable to shooting for a turn. DG can do just that to a land raider or rhino. Also to predators, but that's objectively pretty useless.

The Tigurius example was used by the very list that won the Heat tournament.

So all other examples are viable - how many units in the game can literally not be shot by any space marines, tau or IG?

Pretty sure Wave Serpents don't get -1 to hit also. Overall, I think that these things should stack in only the rarest of situations (like Ghostkeels, that's the gimmick)

No, Serpents don't have that either.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. It also proves how ignorant you are for the other side of the argument. You can't prove a point if you have to make stuff up. Speaking of which, Cloud Of Flies has nothing to do with this either. So knock that one off too. So no, your post isn't really correct.

Which part of "from the top of my head" did you not get? Obviously I'm not carrying all my codices everywhere, and despite my obvious incompetence of memorizing rules of armies I don't play, someone gave me a job which at least requires me to act like I'm working.
So sorry, it was the psychic power Miamasma of Pestilence, while Cloud of Flies only does something vaguely similar. Which totally makes everything I have written ever incorrect.
No wait, you're just being a donkeycave because you already knew the first time around.

2. So don't shoot the Astra flier or vehicle? How many smoke launched vehicles from the IG are you afraid of when they get the power once per turn? This is a silly complaint.

Of course I don't shoot it. I can't hit it, genius!
You don't need to be afraid of something for it to be good. No one was afraid of conscripts with commissars. If anything you're the one being silly if you discount invulnerable vehicles blocking movement pathes, holding objectives and preventing charges. You can drive a smoked and shrouded vehicle straight into a full strength tank busta mob and either force them to waste a ton of movement on getting around it or force them to charge it and lose a turn. Try doing that with hellblasters or fire dragons.

3. You don't even have your codex out yet. Who knows what Strategems you're going to be getting?

I'll bet my hat that there won't be one making any of my battle wagons invulnerable to shooting.

4. Post the Ultramarines list then. Let's see how much of a bonus the -2 to hit comes into play.

Go find it yourself.
It was played by Lawrence from Tabletop Tactics as the winning list in one of the heat tournaments. Might also have success in one of those threads fighting about whether tactical marines suck.
Hint. He wasn't buffing those tacticals or Roboute Guilliman.

So you not only can't name a lot of units or armies, you also made stuff up. Great chatting with ya.

argumentum ad hominem do not win arguments, they make you look like a fool.

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. It also proves how ignorant you are for the other side of the argument. You can't prove a point if you have to make stuff up. Speaking of which, Cloud Of Flies has nothing to do with this either. So knock that one off too. So no, your post isn't really correct.

Which part of "from the top of my head" did you not get? Obviously I'm not carrying all my codices everywhere, and despite my obvious incompetence of memorizing rules of armies I don't play, someone gave me a job which at least requires me to act like I'm working.
So sorry, it was the psychic power Miamasma of Pestilence, while Cloud of Flies only does something vaguely similar. Which totally makes everything I have written ever incorrect.
No wait, you're just being a donkeycave because you already knew the first time around.

2. So don't shoot the Astra flier or vehicle? How many smoke launched vehicles from the IG are you afraid of when they get the power once per turn? This is a silly complaint.

Of course I don't shoot it. I can't hit it, genius!
You don't need to be afraid of something for it to be good. No one was afraid of conscripts with commissars. If anything you're the one being silly if you discount invulnerable vehicles blocking movement pathes, holding objectives and preventing charges. You can drive a smoked and shrouded vehicle straight into a full strength tank busta mob and either force them to waste a ton of movement on getting around it or force them to charge it and lose a turn. Try doing that with hellblasters or fire dragons.

3. You don't even have your codex out yet. Who knows what Strategems you're going to be getting?

I'll bet my hat that there won't be one making any of my battle wagons invulnerable to shooting.

4. Post the Ultramarines list then. Let's see how much of a bonus the -2 to hit comes into play.

Go find it yourself.
It was played by Lawrence from Tabletop Tactics as the winning list in one of the heat tournaments. Might also have success in one of those threads fighting about whether tactical marines suck.
Hint. He wasn't buffing those tacticals or Roboute Guilliman.

So you not only can't name a lot of units or armies, you also made stuff up. Great chatting with ya.

argumentum ad hominem do not win arguments, they make you look like a fool.

1. Cloud of Flies doesn't even have close to a vaguely similar effect. Did you read the codex or even the leaks at minimum?
Using your job as an excuse is a no-go to me. I do a bare minimum of recollection if I'm sure I don't have anything memorized. Incorrect information is worse than the absence of knowledge, if you understand that point.
Also I said most of the things you said were incorrect. The Wraith flying thing and Rangers get a -2, you got Tiggy...and that's about the only armies you can create with that bonus. Anything else is maybe 1-2 units per turn. Yeah, SUPER broken.

2. IG don't have a flier worth casting on in the first place based off the damage they do. So if the flier is -2 to hit, who cares? Marines were likely not shooting it in the first place.
Actually I can discount them because any screening unit is gonna be mediocre at shooting and assault. So I couldn't care less if that invulnerable Rhino charged my Scouts. Difference there is you have much cheaper screening units and they want to be in melee. Just because they have shooting options doesn't mean Orks should be played as a gunline with no screening. I don't understand how your Tank Bustaz ended up like that. They have a 24" range don't they?
Also people WERE afraid of Conscripts with a Commisar because they were that good. You couldn't reach the good stuff with a melee army because most units can't kill Conscripts efficiently for the points, or if they did they were mostly glass cannons that, if they failed that job, would have their target fall back and then get shot up.

3. Not everyone needs a strategy like that, hence why not everyone gets one.

4. You mean the list everyone clamored to as proof that Tactical Marines were good, only for the next two tournaments for them to show up in the most minimal numbers? Oh I know the list. I know the list very well as a matter of fact.
There was a singular Storm Raven (which is always moving a foot at minimum) and Razorbacks can't shoot if they use their smoke launchers, which they wouldn't because that means they'd have deployed behind Tiggy and had to advance ahead of him while simultaneously all staying 6" away from him.

5. You DID make stuff up. Wave Serpents never had a natural -1 to begin with, Space Marines never had Chapter Tactics in their vehicles for whatever reason, and you get upset as though the IG/DG examples were being used in multiple units like those last two false examples.
You can't blame me for being annoyed at your posts.

Well orks like to punch things so I guess the best solution is go faster for now.

Yeah, maybe instead of buffing their BS, give choppy Orks faster Movement stat (6 for Slugga boys?) and an extra D6 of charge distance, and give the shooty orks a better save (3+ for Flash Gitz, 4+ for Lootas). This, together with the inevitable (I hope!) point reduction of vehicles and transports should be enough.

Doesn't solve the problem of untargetable units those, but those are pretty rare.

Untargetable units are only going to get more common. I expect most factions to get a <> with the -1 to hit tactic, and with everyone but spehss mahreens getting their tactics on everything that means everyone's fliers are gonna be -2 to hit.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Untargetable units are only going to get more common. I expect most factions to get a <> with the -1 to hit tactic, and with everyone but spehss mahreens getting their tactics on everything that means everyone's fliers are gonna be -2 to hit.

Hhopefully not that common. Tyranids didn't get one. On that predecense maybe not orks. Maybe GW is not giving them to horde armies.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Blood Axes get the RG tactic, actually. It's been given to all the stealthiest subfactions, which certainly fits the Blood Axes' MO.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if the Blood Axes get the RG tactic, actually. It's been given to all the stealthiest subfactions, which certainly fits the Blood Axes' MO.

And tyranids could easily fit fluffwise as well. Maybe GW didn't do that for balance reasons and blood axes get the tyranid "always in cover" version.

RULE #1 IS BE POLITE.

AND IT IS MANDATORY.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
5. You DID make stuff up. Wave Serpents never had a natural -1 to begin with, Space Marines never had Chapter Tactics in their vehicles for whatever reason, and you get upset as though the IG/DG examples were being used in multiple units like those last two false examples.
You can't blame me for being annoyed at your posts.

You're right, I can't blame you for getting annoyed with a wildly inaccurate post. Let's (both) just be more polite about this next time.

In any case, it was a response to someone asking about what units can get -2 to hit in the first place and it was a simple list, with only the raven guard and alaitoc army-wide traits being completely wrong for vehicles.
I'm actually just as worried about -1 everywhere as about the units I cannot shoot at all.

 Melissia wrote:


Your opinion is wrong and does not match with the lore, where there's a number of Ork Boyz that wear "'Eavy Armor" that in previous editions counted as a 4+ save.

Actually there was only one unit of boyz with a 4+ save, they were elites in 3rd edition and regular troops later. And, I have to admit, I've never like them so my opinion can be biased about that.

But boyz with a 4+ have never been the norm, in the previous editions boyz with 'eavy armor were 10 ppm, they cost almost twice compared regular boyz. An upgrade from 6+ to 4+ save would not be for free and I think orks are already overcosted, there's no need to make them more expensive just to give them some armor which IMHO won't solve anything.

Armor may suit elites, not troops. It matches better with nobz and flash gitz.

I think the proportion: 2 boyz cost as much as one tac marine should apply to all orks units so deff dreads should be half the point of SM dreads, a trukk half the point of a rhino, etc... Lootas are not overcosted IMHO, I think it's appropriate that they cost 3 times and ork boy but their weapons should fire more shots or have a better AP. With the current profile they need a price reduction instead.