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 Frozen Ocean wrote:
That's silly, though. Cawdor are not a positive depiction of anything, in the same way that the highly Nazi-inspired Empire from Star Wars isn't celebrating Nazis.

I think maybe the idea is that even the potential insinuation, no matter how subtle, to the KKK, is seen as something to be frowned upon. I don't think it's the kind of debate that can be won though, certainly not in today's culture. Some people will be offended and others won't.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Because we should definitely try to avoid offending the poor KKK by basing some crazed murder-cult on them!

Pretty sure the intention isn't to "avoid offending the poor KKK" but rather to not make something that might potentially be misconstrued as 'celebrating' them?

That's silly, though. Cawdor are not a positive depiction of anything, in the same way that the highly Nazi-inspired Empire from Star Wars isn't celebrating Nazis.

Did I miss the film showcasing Cawdor's flaws?

Not saying it's a good idea or a bad one, just that it's likely the idea there. The model is the model and the fluff is the fluff, but the person on the outside looking in might just see something that looks remarkably like a Klansman and make a judgement accordingly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
That's silly, though. Cawdor are not a positive depiction of anything, in the same way that the highly Nazi-inspired Empire from Star Wars isn't celebrating Nazis.

I think maybe the idea is that even the potential insinuation, no matter how subtle, to the KKK, is seen as something to be frowned upon. I don't think it's the kind of debate that can be won though, certainly not in today's culture. Some people will be offended and others won't.

The issue as well is the assumption of "offense". Why make things easy for those who want to be offensive trolls?

I really hope that it isn't the case. I'm very much in the so-called "SJW" camp, but this would really be the wrong reason to take action on something.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The issue as well is the assumption of "offense". Why make things easy for those who want to be offensive trolls?

I guess because it seems like an unwinnable battle. There will always be contrarian or bigoted ideologies and ideas. And humans will always come to make new associations relative to those ideas. Look at what happened after the Charlottesville rally, how tiki-torches became associated with the alt-right. Should we ban people from walking down the street with torches because the association may offend people? Or what about how the high and tight haircut began to be worn quite commonly by alt-righters, should we ban those too?

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I really hope that it isn't the case. I'm very much in the so-called "SJW" camp, but this would really be the wrong reason to take action on something.

Literally all you need to do is ditch the nooses or the hood in all likelihood. Even just altering the hood to be more like an executioner's would be a big step in making things a bit more 'easily identifiable'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The issue as well is the assumption of "offense". Why make things easy for those who want to be offensive trolls?

I guess because it seems like an unwinnable battle. There will always be contrarian or bigoted ideologies and ideas. And humans will always come to make new associations relative to those ideas. Look at what happened after the Charlottesville rally, how tiki-torches became associated with the alt-right. Should we ban people from walking down the street with torches because the association may offend people? Or what about how the high and tight haircut began to be worn quite commonly by alt-righters, should we ban those too?

You're mistaking "bans" with "a company making the decision to change things themselves".

It's more that I don't think associating a miniature with the KKK, in this case, is a bad thing. Even just from a visual perspective and forgetting everything about the background, the model is very much some kind of dirty, crazy cultist. Having visual ties to the KKK (intentional or not) just reinforces that. Because that's what the KKK was. It'd be a lot different if the Stormcast Eternals (ie a "good" faction) were depicted with white robes and pointy hoods, with burning crosses as weapons and names like "Purifiers" and so on.

EDIT: Basically I mean that context matters a lot in matters like these.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Because we should definitely try to avoid offending the poor KKK by basing some crazed murder-cult on them!

Pretty sure the intention isn't to "avoid offending the poor KKK" but rather to not make something that might potentially be misconstrued as 'celebrating' them?

That's silly, though. Cawdor are not a positive depiction of anything, in the same way that the highly Nazi-inspired Empire from Star Wars isn't celebrating Nazis.

Unfortunately, these days depiction is considered equivalent to endorsement by a lot of people. Intent, history, context, all are meaningless in the face of people who have decided that if something can be interpreted to mean something bad, that is equivalent to and indistinguishable from it actually being bad and that being the goal of the work. You bring up Star Wars as a way to illustrate how daft the idea is, but there are plenty of folk out there who will argue in all seriousness that the tendency in the newer films for the First Order's leadership to come off as whiny and incompetent is actually brilliant, because the Empire reinforced false narratives about the baddies being "cool" by not being whiny simpering morons during every single moment of screen time, and there is a technically-extant possibility some delusional whackadoos might transfer that sentiment to the real inspiration for the Empire.

Of course there are people who argue that, but there's always someone who supports just about any argument. That doesn't mean that those people are relevant to our discussion, though, because I assume that everyone here is at least some degree of reasonable.

However, even though misplaced, I do appreciate Forge World/GW trying. If that is indeed what this is about and not something completely unrelated like some hilarious accident at the FW office.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
That's silly, though. Cawdor are not a positive depiction of anything, in the same way that the highly Nazi-inspired Empire from Star Wars isn't celebrating Nazis.

But there are plenty of people who do think that way.

I mean, I saw that mini and instantly thought of the classic executionier motif (only in Cawdor colours). Covered head to hide identity from the village, big axe for lopping the heads off the guilty/heretics, and so on. The KKK never came into my thought process.

But for some people, it's all they think of. They see white supremacy everywhere, and live to fight imaginary Nazis. Is it any wonder people complained to the sculptor about it.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Literally all you need to do is ditch the nooses or the hood in all likelihood. Even just altering the hood to be more like an executioner's would be a big step in making things a bit more 'easily identifiable'.

Or don't. Instead, screw those people, because if they win this, then the new Reds, when they come out, will be completely fethed, and they'll be toned down as to not offend the perpetually offended.

 Yodhrin wrote:
You bring up Star Wars as a way to illustrate how daft the idea is...

I've seen people argue that if you like Darth Vader you are basically saying that you support Nazi ideology.

These people need hobbies...

 Yodhrin wrote:

These people need hobbies...

Desperately, and they need to not infect them with identity politics... I fall pretty squarely on the free speech absolutist side so obviously I don't think this should be shelved. I didn't even think of the connection till I read about it here. That does explain why I had to look a little harder for that executioner, though.

This is America 2018...we're ruining careers and bankrupting companies because somebody, somewhere was offended. It's our new national past time. It's almost as fun as Necromunda.

Do we have confirmation that the model was removed for this reason, or is this just speculation?

Why have confirmation when we can be wildly swinging at strawmen?

Edit: I had really hoped the Delaque would have shown up already so we could see what their iteration will look like this time around. Hopefully some time soon after their release we can get some rule compendium to make jumping into this game a bit more palatable.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But there are plenty of people who do think that way.

I mean, I saw that mini and instantly thought of the classic executionier motif (only in Cawdor colours). Covered head to hide identity from the village, big axe for lopping the heads off the guilty/heretics, and so on. The KKK never came into my thought process.

But for some people, it's all they think of. They see white supremacy everywhere, and live to fight imaginary Nazis. Is it any wonder people complained to the sculptor about it.

Well, white supremacy is everywhere. But my point is that depictions of the KKK aren't inherently racist. Regardless of whether or not this is KKK inspired, it's not a bad thing either way because the design is supposed to represent a crazy extremist zealot. There is no way that such a character can be mistaken as "pro-KKK". If it were, obviously there'd be a problem. Much like how Marvel's HYDRA, a Nazi organisation, are not a problem, but it was a problem when that guy decided to make Captain America a Nazi the whole time and that Nazis really won the war, the Allies just used magic to steal their victory!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I've seen people argue that if you like Darth Vader you are basically saying that you support Nazi ideology.

While those people are ridiculous and do exist, as I said before, I assume that everyone here is at least slightly reasonable. In other words, those extreme people aren't here and pretending that they are is just hyperbole.

 Sqorgar wrote:
Do we have confirmation that the model was removed for this reason, or is this just speculation?

Speculation so far, I believe. I really find it hard to believe that this is the actual reason. It's just so tenuous.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

While those people are ridiculous and do exist, as I said before, I assume that everyone here is at least slightly reasonable. In other words, those extreme people aren't here and pretending that they are is just hyperbole.

I don't think anyone's saying they're here, in this thread, calling from inside the house etc. Just that that sort of outrage mongering is hardly unheard of both outwith and, recently, very much within nerdy culture.

Hey guys, quick noob question; any rumours of the next gang and if/when they’re coming? Trench coat dudes with smiley masks would make my day but I assume that’s a little too specific haha

I tole y'all back when N17 started that parody KKK, and parody indians, won't fly in 2017+

If they screw up Ratskins... I will be cross.. to say the least.
Anyway, to keep it on topic, let me link the concept art for the last main gang, they should hit early in November. And aside from Ratskins this was the only other gang I thought about building back in the day.

cainex1 wrote:
If they screw up Ratskins... I will be cross.. to say the least.
Anyway, to keep it on topic, let me link the concept art for the last main gang, they should hit early in November. And aside from Ratskins this was the only other gang I thought about building back in the day.

Ooooo, these dudes would be sweet, I’m keen just from that one concept haha

cainex1 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

These people need hobbies...

Desperately, and they need to not infect them with identity politics... I fall pretty squarely on the free speech absolutist side so obviously I don't think this should be shelved. I didn't even think of the connection till I read about it here. That does explain why I had to look a little harder for that executioner, though.

You know, even though I agree with you in this instance, I can't help but find funny the fact that you self identify as a "free speech absolutist" in the same sentence you're basically telling people to shut up

I'm on for 2 boxes of Cawdor. One for me, and one for you easily offended types. I'll add a double helping of kill in the game, and think of you while I lay waste to all comers.

Can we stay on target and not have a repeat of those previous discussions here? Thanks!

In the states, who has had issue getting things from Forgeworld?

I've been trying to get a hold of the Necromunda stuff for a while, now, and the card issue is stopping the spice from flowing. Has anyone else had this issue?

 Elbows wrote:
That leader figure is a great figure...ruined by GW's fething obsession with god damn lit candles...seriously.

It.......waxes and wanes

Do people really hate the candles that much? I've seen enough comments about it around that it must be true. I don't like them, but I don't hate them either. I'm 100% neutral on them.

Honestly I'm not 100% wowed by the Cawdor minis in the first place. They're the one I didn't immediately go out and buy unlike all the others (got 30 of each of the other gangers). That said, having seen how well they work with GSC bitz, I may break for that.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I tole y'all back when N17 started that parody KKK, and parody indians, won't fly in 2017+

[Current Year] arguments are bs. They should stick to the aesthetic of what they are.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Hey guys, quick noob question; any rumours of the next gang and if/when they’re coming? Trench coat dudes with smiley masks would make my day but I assume that’s a little too specific haha

Smiley faces? I doubt that.

But the new Delaques, from the briefest of concept art we've seen, have a very Dark City vibe to them.

 MangoMadness wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
That leader figure is a great figure...ruined by GW's fething obsession with god damn lit candles...seriously.

It.......waxes and wanes

I'd rather burn it...at both ends.

PS: Yes, I really hate the candles that much. They look stupid on a Space Marine, but at least they're in...armour (and somehow magically preventing them from blowing out the second they go...anywhere). A pile of melting/burning candles carried on the shoulders of a masked individual is...one of the most stupid design decisions I've seen in a miniature. Narrowly edging out rolls of parchment longer than a model's leg - looking at you gak stupid Chaplain Terminator.

But they're spaaaaaaaaaaaaaace candles, so they don't go out!

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I tole y'all back when N17 started that parody KKK, and parody indians, won't fly in 2017+

Agreed. It doesn't matter what the "I defend my right to offend you" crowd think, cultural appropriation and anything that could be perceived as a KKK mini... yeah, nope. They'll reimagine the Ratskins, if they even do them. Dark Angels already lost the Native American vibe and no-one flipped their lid, so it's entirely possible.

Ratskin don’t have to change much to loose that association and still be recognisable. Redemptionist would have to just go out the window if they don’t want kkk vibes offending people that shouldn’t be offended. Maybe the designers should just do a Q and A on community site were they can talk about there inspirations so as to deride any insinuations of kkk affiliation, but being not of American persuasion my mind never jumped to kkk, I saw a mix of medieval executioner Spanish penitents and gw grim dark ott ascetics blended together.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Honestly I'm not 100% wowed by the Cawdor minis in the first place. They're the one I didn't immediately go out and buy unlike all the others (got 30 of each of the other gangers). That said, having seen how well they work with GSC bitz, I may break for that.

I got a box yesterday, and I have to say that I like them much more now that I've fiddled a bit with them, which is exactly the opposite reaction I had when I bought the Van Saar box (Now that I've assembled them, I have to say that my current opinio of that sprue is "cool, but very limited options and severely flawed". Currently I'd rate it as the worst gang sprue).