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 streetsamurai wrote:
About 4 pages too late my frien lol

Yeah, noticed it afterwards ^_^. This thread's big!

 Galas wrote:
Sqorgar, all what you are saying is correct. I can understand the appeal to new players, and in the end, I believe is a good move, because a easier first experience for players, is better to the community as a whole..
But I'm not a new player, so at least for me this isn't as good as it could.. But as you said, I don't believe the gangs wars book is gonna be expensive, so is a minimal difference at the end, at least from the economical standpoint.

I had a whole paragraph on how it was so completely different from DLC (which I loathe), but decided to focus only on the ethical aspects of a day one expansion. I was all like, "no man, this isn't DLC. Let me tell you some gak about DLC" and then ended up not even posting it. DLC/expansions as a concept is not bad. It's software licenses, exploitative gambling, tying the goods to services that screw you over, requiring online verification, and all that which is bad. If GW ever tries to get people to sign up for a subscription service (even a free one) for their games, that's when you know to abandon ship.

Uh, guys, we already know there are going to be interrupts available in the form of tactic cards. We just don’t know how/when those will be allocated to players yet.

Just watched the video and up to now I have nothing to complain about. Does anybody know how many double-sided board sections will be in the box?

 Strg Alt wrote:
Just watched the video and up to now I have nothing to complain about. Does anybody know how many double-sided board sections will be in the box?

The necromunda site shows 9 square double sided sections:



the toxic sludge looks pretty cool.

Yeah and a lot cheaper way to play than paying full price for ZONE MORTALIS..

 Thargrim wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Just watched the video and up to now I have nothing to complain about. Does anybody know how many double-sided board sections will be in the box?

The necromunda site shows 9 square double sided sections:



the toxic sludge looks pretty cool.

Thanks for the info. I presume some scenarios will use all board sections provided for the game just as in Deathwatch Overkill. I guess this will be enough to accomodate twenty gangers at once without getting crowded. We will have to see how this will work out with advanced gangs with 10+ models on the roster. But deaths, old battle wounds and serious injuries will hopefully keep the total number from skyrocketing. If I remember correctly the only gang that could rapidly increase their total number with cheesy tactics were the Plague Zombies. I hope GW will tone down their ability to multiply with ease even if it would be fluffy to allow them to do so.

All nine together in a square is a 6'×6' board. I recall Necromunda being happily played on 4'×4' boards, though with elevated terrain. There should, nevertheless, be plenty of space.

I hope it doesn't get too big personally, when you end up fielding a bunch of models per side i'd say it might feel less of a skirmish game. The only table I have to game on is about 3x3 and it fits shadespire perfectly with a bit of room to spare. Hopefully I can do smaller matches with these necromunda tiles as well consisting of maybe 4 of these tiles or something around that number.

I definitely plan on sleeving those tactics cards as well (any indication as to where the cards in the box are standard size?) Plus. I know it sucks there won't be more gangs until 2018 but by the time this is out it will be around mid november and really there won't be a whole lot of time left before next year anyways so it's fine by me.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
All nine together in a square is a 6'×6' board. I recall Necromunda being happily played on 4'×4' boards, though with elevated terrain. There should, nevertheless, be plenty of space.

The boards are 1ft square. Nine will make a 3 x 3 ft square.

 The Infinite wrote:

Honestly, it was good for its time but there are a lot of systems with better campaigns available now. I hope they've spent a lot more time updating the campaign rules than they appear to have spent on what was on show.

So what are some of these games with better campaigns that fit into the same genre as Necromunda? Shadows is basically WHQ with a GM, so, like Descent, it's not the same thing as Necro, which is PVP and doesn't require or involve a GM, and I don't feel that Frostgrave is on the same level as original Necro/Mordheim/GM. Regardless, you can that there's a lot of systems, so surely there are some skirmish games that fit the bill.

I'm genuinely interested, since I don't only play GW games or use GW models, and there's always other good product out there. Surely you can name a few of them that I can check out?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Adding 150-200 more pages to a Bulk printed rulebook, so the base game contains more, instead of less, even if you don't want to use it, doesn't costs GW enough to justify making the basic box more expensive.

It likely costs more than you think. In addition to the added cost of simply printing and binding another 200 pages, it would greatly increase the weight of the game and make it more expensive to ship around the world. Not to mention that a heavier book would require additional packaging (like Dark Vengeance) to secure the book from destroying the sprues (like Deadzone). If I had to guess, it would add several dollars to the base costs, which would translate to an addition $15-$20 (at least) for the end user - the Blood Bowl books are only $25 to $30, so the savings to you probably aren't worth the loss of potential new players a more expensive box would entail.

The expansion is apparently 64 pages. I have no idea why whoever it was mentioned 200 pages, because they just set up a whole lot of points that hurt their argument, as you point out.

I should point out though - that GW would not need to increase the price at all for an extra 64 or 200 pages. Boxed starter sets aren't especially price-pointed around the cost of components, and we keep hearing that the physical boxes that most plastic sets cost more to produce than the models inside (citation needed, I agree) - but the point remains that the cost of the components isn't the driving force for the RRP of their products.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albertorius wrote:

otcs wrote:
Female bald Delaques? lol

Yes?

Spoiler:

Thats a good catch. I completely missed the tactics cards being gang exclusive.

Also, in case this wasn't already known, the Gang War book is the first in a series. There will be more of them, expanding the game over time.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Heaps of people think this is what IGOUGO means because that's what it sounds like - "I do a thing, then you do a thing". It really implies fast turnover. IGOUGO is not a great term for "I do all the things for 30 minutes, then you do all the things for 30 minutes".

Be that as it may, it is what is meant by IGOUGO.

40k is IGOUGO.
Original Necromunda was IGOUGO.
Newcromunda isn't.

Simple as that.

 Sabotage! wrote:
That is a huge let down, I was hoping that at least a few of the gangs would be out in December.

I agree, but GW don't tend to do new things in December. They just usually do bundles.

 squall018 wrote:
Thats a good catch. I completely missed the tactics cards being gang exclusive.

Yeah. Expect Shadespire-style (FFG style?) gang packs.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Also, in case this wasn't already known, the Gang War book is the first in a series. There will be more of them, expanding the game over time.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Heaps of people think this is what IGOUGO means because that's what it sounds like - "I do a thing, then you do a thing". It really implies fast turnover. IGOUGO is not a great term for "I do all the things for 30 minutes, then you do all the things for 30 minutes".

Be that as it may, it is what is meant by IGOUGO.

40k is IGOUGO.
Original Necromunda was IGOUGO.
Newcromunda isn't.

Simple as that.

Yeah, "alternating activation" might technically be IGOUGO, but it's not what we mean by that. Which is why we have both terms.

Technically, every game that isn't simultaneous, is IGOUGO, so yes, people saying that alternating activations is the same as the classic gameplay experience people refers as IGOUGO is just being disingenuous.

 jake wrote:

 Groundh0g wrote:
Not a big fan of the "DLC" model making it's way to tabletop.

Well, you're about 40 years to late then. Tabletop gaming has been operating on a "DLC model" since the 80's.

Um, no. Expansions, sure. But leaving out (existing) core content to release as expansions is not something that has been around for 40 years, unless my memory fails me. It was the same with Blood Bowl.

As I said, love the minis and I will pick up a gang or two, but zero interest in GW's rules or business model. There are better sci fi skirmish rules around than Necromunda these days, even if it served as the origin for nearly all of them, along with Mordheim.

 Groundh0g wrote:
Um, no. Expansions, sure. But leaving out (existing) core content to release as expansions is not something that has been around for 40 years, unless my memory fails me. It was the same with Blood Bowl.

I'm not personally familiar with it, but isn't this kind of a Basic vs Advanced Dungeons and Dragons situation?

 Galas wrote:
Technically, every game that isn't simultaneous, is IGOUGO, so yes, people saying that alternating activations is the same as the classic gameplay experience people refers as IGOUGO is just being disingenuous.

I see what you are saying, but honestly, I think the standards in rules development is just making that less and less true. Sure there are turn structures and active/reactive player timing sequences, but rules writers have figured out a lot of ways to keep both players in the decision making process at this point. There are a lot of games where two models on both sides can fall over dead at effectively the same time, and both players were making decisions about the outcome.

To be brutally honest, listening to the vast majority of GW players talk about table top game mechanics is like listening to Everquest or Vanilla World of Warcraft players trying to use their frame of reference to talk about current day MMO mechanics. Its like they know what an MMO is, while also knowing less about modern day MMO than a person who has never heard the term MMO due to preconceptions.

GW is unrepentantly stuck in the past on the rules mechanics front. There are a lot of mega grind fest MMOs with flashy graphics that get published. Consumers of those products are not wrong. They are just exceptionally wrong if they think those products are especially representative of current thinking on MMOs.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Groundh0g wrote:
Um, no. Expansions, sure. But leaving out (existing) core content to release as expansions is not something that has been around for 40 years, unless my memory fails me. It was the same with Blood Bowl.

I'm not personally familiar with it, but isn't this kind of a Basic vs Advanced Dungeons and Dragons situation?

Not even vaguely.
Basic & Advanced D&D were two different product lines with related but distinct rules.
They're more akin to different editions that happened to overlap in time.

Voss wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
I'm not personally familiar with it, but isn't this kind of a Basic vs Advanced Dungeons and Dragons situation?

Not even vaguely.
Basic & Advanced D&D were two different product lines with related but distinct rules.
They're more akin to different editions that happened to overlap in time.

Like I said, I'm not personally familiar with it. I'm just going by the Wikipedia description that says, "Although the Basic Set was not fully compatible with Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, players were expected to continue play beyond third level by moving to AD&D"

Sleipnir wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Technically, every game that isn't simultaneous, is IGOUGO, so yes, people saying that alternating activations is the same as the classic gameplay experience people refers as IGOUGO is just being disingenuous.

I see what you are saying, but honestly, I think the standards in rules development is just making that less and less true. Sure there are turn structures and active/reactive player timing sequences, but rules writers have figured out a lot of ways to keep both players in the decision making process at this point. There are a lot of games where two models on both sides can fall over dead at effectively the same time, and both players were making decisions about the outcome.

To be brutally honest, listening to the vast majority of GW players talk about table top game mechanics is like listening to Everquest or Vanilla World of Warcraft players trying to use their frame of reference to talk about current day MMO mechanics. Its like they know what an MMO is, while also knowing less about modern day MMO than a person who has never heard the term MMO due to preconceptions.

GW is unrepentantly stuck in the past on the rules mechanics front. There are a lot of mega grind fest MMOs with flashy graphics that get published. Consumers of those products are not wrong. They are just exceptionally wrong if they think those products are especially representative of current thinking on MMOs.

Oh, I agree. Mechanics change, and what was good 10-15-20 years ago isn't good anymore. Many things improve, others just change. But this isn't a full new game. This is Necromunda. Is a purely nostalgia driven release. They have give it a nice face cleanup but in the end it remains the same game.
Will it be an impediment to his grow and popularization? We have the example of Bloodbowl. The nostalgia push was MASSIVE when it released, but as you said, the 20-years old rules ended up drowning it, like an anchor to the neck.

So yes, I believe Necromunda isn't gonna have the sucess it has 20 years ago. But, you know what? It doesn't need to have it. Shadowpire is this new, ultra competitive, fast game with slow preparation time and tight ruleset, made to appeal to the new trends of the market.
GW is trying to make products to all kinds of players. Nostalgic veterans, new players, even board-gamers and ... COMPETITIVE players! You know, the kind of players GW even refused to acknowledge that they existed

 Sqorgar wrote:
Like I said, I'm not personally familiar with it. I'm just going by the Wikipedia description that says, "Although the Basic Set was not fully compatible with Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, players were expected to continue play beyond third level by moving to AD&D"

Edit - that was the original 1977 edition, the next edition incorporated extra box sets.

The Basic Set was levels 1-3 then there was Expert which was from 4-10? then Companion Set and Masters and then Immortals.

Each Box set allowed the transition of players to higher levels of D&D, at no stage did they cross over to AD&D

I notice that the gang roster doesn't have stats for each fighter. I wonder if that means development will be purely skill and equipment based?

Mordheim I thought was rather clever in the way it limited the amount of conversions you had to do by saying only characters could change equipment. I can see a similar practice here.

Apologies that has nothing to do with mechanic bunk rather the game at hand....

So we have Tactics Cards that are gang specific, Ganger profile cards and seperate release of the Escher/Goliath gangs day one or so.

Anyone else think that there could be a possible XWing-like release of special cards in the gang boxes that aren't in the main box realease ala Shadespire?

Not a good or bad thing but could make the extra gang boxes a must buy for more cards.

 Galas wrote:

Sleipnir wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Technically, every game that isn't simultaneous, is IGOUGO, so yes, people saying that alternating activations is the same as the classic gameplay experience people refers as IGOUGO is just being disingenuous.

I see what you are saying, but honestly, I think the standards in rules development is just making that less and less true. Sure there are turn structures and active/reactive player timing sequences, but rules writers have figured out a lot of ways to keep both players in the decision making process at this point. There are a lot of games where two models on both sides can fall over dead at effectively the same time, and both players were making decisions about the outcome.

To be brutally honest, listening to the vast majority of GW players talk about table top game mechanics is like listening to Everquest or Vanilla World of Warcraft players trying to use their frame of reference to talk about current day MMO mechanics. Its like they know what an MMO is, while also knowing less about modern day MMO than a person who has never heard the term MMO due to preconceptions.

GW is unrepentantly stuck in the past on the rules mechanics front. There are a lot of mega grind fest MMOs with flashy graphics that get published. Consumers of those products are not wrong. They are just exceptionally wrong if they think those products are especially representative of current thinking on MMOs.

Oh, I agree. Mechanics change, and what was good 10-15-20 years ago isn't good anymore. Many things improve, others just change. But this isn't a full new game. This is Necromunda. Is a purely nostalgia driven release. They have give it a nice face cleanup but in the end it remains the same game.
Will it be an impediment to his grow and popularization? We have the example of Bloodbowl. The nostalgia push was MASSIVE when it released, but as you said, the 20-years old rules ended up drowning it, like an anchor to the neck.

So yes, I believe Necromunda isn't gonna have the sucess it has 20 years ago. But, you know what? It doesn't need to have it. Shadowpire is this new, ultra competitive, fast game with slow preparation time and tight ruleset, made to appeal to the new trends of the market.
GW is trying to make products to all kinds of players. Nostalgic veterans, new players, even board-gamers and ... COMPETITIVE players! You know, the kind of players GW even refused to acknowledge that they existed

Blood bowl that they have sold us has been a success beyond their most optimistic projections? That game still getting regular releases?

Wish I could sink like a stone in such a fashion.

A lot of pretentious nonsense on games design in this thread.

 notprop wrote:
Apologies that has nothing to do with mechanic bunk rather the game at hand....

So we have Tactics Cards that are gang specific, Ganger profile cards and seperate release of the Escher/Goliath gangs day one or so.

Anyone else think that there could be a possible XWing-like release of special cards in the gang boxes that aren't in the main box realease ala Shadespire?

Not a good or bad thing but could make the extra gang boxes a must buy for more cards.

X-Wings cards are for specific characters, that add much more power. Necromunda cards are simply tactics that may or may not be useful in a situation, and as such aren't directly compared.
Also, you must realise Shadespire is considered a competitive game, and as such require specific cards in gang boxes for game balance.

I'm thinking more fixedcharacter cards and tactics cards would push the game in a more limited a pay to play direction.

The roster GW have listed up is purely for listing costs not character information as well. It indicates fixed characters to me.

Empty character sheets indicates customizable characters to me.

 notprop wrote:
I'm thinking more fixedcharacter cards and tactics cards would push the game in a more limited a pay to play direction.

The roster GW have listed up is purely for listing costs not character information as well. It indicates fixed characters to me.

They state right there in the video that the game box comes with two "premade" gangs, essentially they provide completed roster cards for the models if you assemble them as-per the instruction booklet. There are also blank roster cards and you can still create an entirely custom warband.

Just like the card play surface, the "premade" gangs are there for new people who're buying a complete boxed game, they no more mean the system is moving to Shadespire-style fixed characters than the card play surface means they're turning it into a boardgame.

 notprop wrote:
I'm thinking more fixedcharacter cards and tactics cards would push the game in a more limited a pay to play direction.

The roster GW have listed up is purely for listing costs not character information as well. It indicates fixed characters to me.

Okay, what about the blank character cards? What do those indicate?