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FarseerReborn wrote:

Jinx + Linked fire on 3 Prisms deleted 1 Knight per turn alone.

Which weapon profile?

The middle one, Focused, I think. The S9 D3 shot one. There is literally no situation to fire the Lance shot.
Against Knights, both modes bring the Armour save beyond their Invul, so they'll just use the invul, and both modes wound on 3+. So the mode with more shots will always be better.
D6 damage is nice, but it's only 1 shot (well 2 from firing twice). 2D3 shots have a greater chance of getting through to roll multiple D3 damages.

With Jinx, the Knight would only succeed with their invul on a 6. With 3 Prisms, that was 6D3 shots rerolling to hit and wound.
I did need some help stripping off wounds first from the Hemlocks and Crimson Hunter, however

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Aren't 10-man ynnari dark reapers better at wounding Knights?

FarseerReborn wrote:
Aren't 10-man ynnari dark reapers better at wounding Knights?

Maybe, but Ynnari is kinda weak-sauce right now and Reapers aren't plastic, so I don't have any.
Although, technically Prisms are better at "wounding" because they wound on 3+, not 4+ like Reapers. Prisms (in this particular case) also reroll to hit and to wound because of their Strat.
2 of my Prisms were also out of LOS to the Knights, because Linked Fire allows that. Reapers have to be visible.
Ynarri Reapers also cannot benefit from the Alaitoc Trait, which made a big difference for my Prisms.

It really just comes donw to personal taste. I like Prisms. I think Reapers are "meh", although not the rules in general, just that they are Infantry that requires support and not jetbikes or vehicles that are mostly self-sufficient.

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 Galef wrote:

FarseerReborn wrote:
Aren't 10-man ynnari dark reapers better at wounding Knights?

Maybe, but Ynnari is kinda weak-sauce right now and Reapers aren't plastic, so I don't have any.
Although, technically Prisms are better at "wounding" because they wound on 3+, not 4+ like Reapers. Prisms (in this particular case) also reroll to hit and to wound because of their Strat.
2 of my Prisms were also out of LOS to the Knights, because Linked Fire allows that. Reapers have to be visible.
Ynarri Reapers also cannot benefit from the Alaitoc Trait, which made a big difference for my Prisms.

It really just comes donw to personal taste. I like Prisms. I think Reapers are "meh", although not the rules in general, just that they are Infantry that requires support and not jetbikes or vehicles that are mostly self-sufficient.

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You've really inspired me to get a Fire Prism I think they're really cool and my Dark Reapers have not been living up to their hype. Reapers are cool as hell, though so I'll probably keep them. But the bright lances and reaper launchers just aren't cutting it and the Fire Prism seems to be an anti-everything vehicle. Do you ever find yourself using the dispersed beam or do you pretty much solely use them as tank/monster hunters?

 Kharneth wrote:
Do you ever find yourself using the dispersed beam or do you pretty much solely use them as tank/monster hunters?

I like the option, but in general, I end up always using the Focus mode, as my opponents tend to have plenty of targets for it, while the rest of my army takes on single wound targets.
I have yet to actually use the Dispersed mode.

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One Fire Prism is ok. A quad-las Pred is going to pop vehicles much better than a Prism, but the Prism will do better against non-vehicles. Similarly, does better against vehicles than anti-infantry vehicles, but worse against infantry.

Two or more Fire Prisms, now that's a different story. The strat is *really* good at nuking a big scary unit/model.

Bharring wrote:
One Fire Prism is ok. A quad-las Pred is going to pop vehicles much better than a Prism, but the Prism will do better against non-vehicles. Similarly, does better against vehicles than anti-infantry vehicles, but worse against infantry.

Two or more Fire Prisms, now that's a different story. The strat is *really* good at nuking a big scary unit/model.

Agreed. You can't just do 1 Prism. You need 2 at minimum and 3 is the best choice.

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 Galef wrote:

Bharring wrote:
One Fire Prism is ok. A quad-las Pred is going to pop vehicles much better than a Prism, but the Prism will do better against non-vehicles. Similarly, does better against vehicles than anti-infantry vehicles, but worse against infantry.

Two or more Fire Prisms, now that's a different story. The strat is *really* good at nuking a big scary unit/model.

Agreed. You can't just do 1 Prism. You need 2 at minimum and 3 is the best choice.

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Because Linked Fire is not restricted to a pair, but merely requires at least 2?

That feels like such a huge investment (money and points) and 3 of them feels like it'd be boring. What other vehicles do you use with those 3 Fire Prisms? Did you say 2 Hemlocks and a Hunter? Do field any Wave Serpents or do you find those 6 vehicles sufficient for target saturation?

 Kharneth wrote:

Because Linked Fire is not restricted to a pair, but merely requires at least 2?

That feels like such a huge investment (money and points) and 3 of them feels like it'd be boring. What other vehicles do you use with those 3 Fire Prisms? Did you say 2 Hemlocks and a Hunter? Do field any Wave Serpents or do you find those 6 vehicles sufficient for target saturation?

Yes, you need 2 to use Linked Fire and the 3rd Prism is just in case one gets killed so you still have 2. With the Strat, one 1 needs to be in LoS of the enemy. The other 2 can hide and only need to see the other Prism.

Prisms are so versatile that 3 of them is not boring. And I only take 6 vehicles. 3 Flyers & 3 tanks. My 3rd Prism is also a Wave Serpent that I use in some games.
I take a minimum of 2 Prisms, but I've found that when 1 of them dies, the other struggles, or I have to dedicate a Farseer to get the rerolls again.

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FarseerReborn wrote:

Jinx + Linked fire on 3 Prisms deleted 1 Knight per turn alone.

Which weapon profile?

Focussed is statistically slightly better than lance for T7-8 3+ vehicles. Although lance benefits more from a trusty CP reroll on the damage result.

Mathhammer shows you'll only avg about 16 wounds even with Jinx, so I wouldn't expect to delete 1 big knight every turn with just Fire Prisms (makes sense, as the prisms are about the same cost as a Questoris knight).

Yes, I should clarify, the Prisms were deleting 1 Knight per turn, but only once a few wounds were shaved off first using my Hemlocks. Jinx was also very handy

Tactically you should always start with the Prisms, but since each turn after the first had some wounded Knights, I wasn't shooting at unwounded Knights from that point on.

Some thoughts about Dark Reapers still being top notch for dealing with knights:

10-man unit (340 points)

- can be concealed
- always 3+ to hit
- 10 shots (average for 3 fire prisms= 12 shots)
- straight 3 wounds per hit
- can fire twice if ynnari
- can be guided
- no CP points to spend
- can be Forewarned with farseer stratagem

Mathhamer says:

3 fire prisms shooting a Knight with linked fire= 12, 6 wounds dealt

10 guided reapers shooting a knight = 11, 9 wounds dealt

Double that with Word of the Phoenix and you have 23, 8 wounds to a knight in a single turn

FarseerReborn wrote:
Some thoughts about Dark Reapers still being top notch for dealing with knights:

10-man unit (340 points)

- can be concealed
- always 3+ to hit
- 10 shots (average for 3 fire prisms= 12 shots)
- straight 3 wounds per hit
- can fire twice if ynnari
- can be guided
- no CP points to spend
- can be Forewarned with farseer stratagem

Mathhamer says:

3 fire prisms shooting a Knight with linked fire= 12, 6 wounds dealt

10 guided reapers shooting a knight = 11, 9 wounds dealt

Double that with Word of the Phoenix and you have 23, 8 wounds to a knight in a single turn

Yeah If youre going Ynarri, a big reaper unit is still a pretty strong take no matter what you face. My numbers for guided Reapers are a bit different though, only str 8 really gimps them:

Spartacus wrote:

FarseerReborn wrote:
Some thoughts about Dark Reapers still being top notch for dealing with knights:

10-man unit (340 points)

- can be concealed
- always 3+ to hit
- 10 shots (average for 3 fire prisms= 12 shots)
- straight 3 wounds per hit
- can fire twice if ynnari
- can be guided
- no CP points to spend
- can be Forewarned with farseer stratagem

Mathhamer says:

3 fire prisms shooting a Knight with linked fire= 12, 6 wounds dealt

10 guided reapers shooting a knight = 11, 9 wounds dealt

Double that with Word of the Phoenix and you have 23, 8 wounds to a knight in a single turn

Yeah If youre going Ynarri, a big reaper unit is still a pretty strong take no matter what you face. My numbers for guided Reapers are a bit different though, only str 8 really gimps them:

Correct

So what's our best defense against 3-5 Knight lists? Other than objectives because not everyone plays objectives, sadly.

karandrasss wrote:
So what's our best defense against 3-5 Knight lists? Other than objectives because not everyone plays objectives, sadly.

According to reports and mathhammer,

3 fire prisms in linked fire

Thoughts on wraithblades? I bought the start collecting set and painted the wraiths up as wraithblades simply because they look awesome, I was wondering how people get on with them? I'm thinking of putting a spiritseer with them in a wave serpent to Chuck them forward to tackle juicy enemy units?

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Thoughts on wraithblades? I bought the start collecting set and painted the wraiths up as wraithblades simply because they look awesome, I was wondering how people get on with them? I'm thinking of putting a spiritseer with them in a wave serpent to Chuck them forward to tackle juicy enemy units?

Note: theory here, haven’t finished building/painting mine (but it’s on my list)

Often I find that once I disembark, I die with normal eldar infantry. There are a number of time I want to get out of the tank and keep a boot on an objective for more then a nanosecond. Wraith units seem to fill the role of an anchor/anvil unit pretty well. My first choice (and the one I built first) would be d-scythes. But one other thing I found wanting is a little CC chop in my lists. Something that can get stuck in and carve stuff up. And something that’s not finecast. That’s where the wraithblades come in. Probably build them with axes. I’ve got the sprues, just need to work them into the schedule.

Tactically I play a mechanized list. Normally deploy in a refused flank position (cowering in the corner) and blast things with long range fire. When the enemy get close, troops disembark and end up acting like ablative shields to slow down the foe. My hope is that the wraiths can act like a non-ablitive shield and actually hold the line for a couple of turns.

YMMV.

karandrasss wrote:
So what's our best defense against 3-5 Knight lists? Other than objectives because not everyone plays objectives, sadly.

Doom, Guide, Smites, 2 Hemlocks, and 14 Reaper Launchers. That's my defense. Focus fire you're fire. The thing about knights, they put out scary fire, but once they start dropping, they are in trouble. You get one down turn 1, you're in a good place.

FarseerReborn wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
So what's our best defense against 3-5 Knight lists? Other than objectives because not everyone plays objectives, sadly.

According to reports and mathhammer,

3 fire prisms in linked fire

Do you have the math? I don't trust Fire Prisms against anything with an invuln save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 djones520 wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
So what's our best defense against 3-5 Knight lists? Other than objectives because not everyone plays objectives, sadly.

Doom, Guide, Smites, 2 Hemlocks, and 14 Reaper Launchers. That's my defense. Focus fire you're fire. The thing about knights, they put out scary fire, but once they start dropping, they are in trouble. You get one down turn 1, you're in a good place.

How do you deal with Doom pre-empting Rotate Ion Shields? Meaning your target will always have an improved invuln, sometimes even 3++, if you Doom your target first.

karandrasss wrote:


Do you have the math? I don't trust Fire Prisms against anything with an invuln save.


How do you deal with Doom pre-empting Rotate Ion Shields? Meaning your target will always have an improved invuln, sometimes even 3++, if you Doom your target first.

We've got maths for Fire Prisms and Reapers on this very page of discussion. An 5+ invuln save is basically a flat 1/3 reduction in damage unless you can ignore it with mortal wounds.

Deepstriking Fire Dragons and quickened Shining Spears are also decent.

The best idea is to try and split your opponents attention by also casting Jinx on another target you want to destroy. Should he use rotate to try and ignore the Jinx or counteract Doom?

Then in your shooting phase, start with your weakest shooting first (or the shooting that only has one good target). Your opponent will commit his stratagem once he knows the target it will provide most value on, but if you avoid showing you hand until as late as possible, he may either try to call your bluff early (so you can decide whether or not to change targets), or wait until you commit your biggest shooting (in which case you've done all the rest of your shooting without being effected by it).

karandrasss wrote:

FarseerReborn wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
So what's our best defense against 3-5 Knight lists? Other than objectives because not everyone plays objectives, sadly.

According to reports and mathhammer,

3 fire prisms in linked fire

Do you have the math? I don't trust Fire Prisms against anything with an invuln save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 djones520 wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
So what's our best defense against 3-5 Knight lists? Other than objectives because not everyone plays objectives, sadly.

Doom, Guide, Smites, 2 Hemlocks, and 14 Reaper Launchers. That's my defense. Focus fire you're fire. The thing about knights, they put out scary fire, but once they start dropping, they are in trouble. You get one down turn 1, you're in a good place.

How do you deal with Doom pre-empting Rotate Ion Shields? Meaning your target will always have an improved invuln, sometimes even 3++, if you Doom your target first.

That's what Jinx is for. That 3++ becomes 4++, and he's just wasted CP. Enough will get through.

Yes, Jinx makes a huge difference. Until the rules for them change, I will be taking 2 Hemlocks in just about every game I play. I take Jinx on both for redundancy (not to cast twice, obviously, but so that I still have it if one of them dies) and the other Hemlock just uses Smite.

Combined with a Doomseer and 3 Prisms, I doubt a Knight list will ever be an issue for me. I also use the Alaitoc trait, which can be very annoying for Knights.

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 Galef wrote:
Yes, Jinx makes a huge difference. Until the rules for them change, I will be taking 2 Hemlocks in just about every game I play. I take Jinx on both for redundancy (not to cast twice, obviously, but so that I still have it if one of them dies) and the other Hemlock just uses Smite.

Combined with a Doomseer and 3 Prisms, I doubt a Knight list will ever be an issue for me. I also use the Alaitoc trait, which can be very annoying for Knights.

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Could you please post an army list for anti-knight?

FarseerReborn wrote:
Could you please post an army list for anti-knight?

How about I post one of my regular lists instead, with 3 minor tweaks to make it "Anti-Knight"?



The only changes to make this an "Anti-Knight" list is to swap the D-scythes for Wraithcannons and swap the Serpent for a 3rd Prism.
The WG now have to use the Webway, but that is ok.
I also have to swap the Guardians for more Rangers since the WG are now using the CP to use the Webway (cuz I'm not spending 3CP for only 2 units to drop, it should be a 1 for 1 strat)

Rangers shooting at a Doomed Knight, also seem to get decent Mortal Wounds

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Double Autarch skyrunner with reaper laucher? What is their role?

FarseerReborn wrote:
Double Autarch skyrunner with reaper laucher? What is their role?

They are there to provide reroll 1s to my Prisms/Serpent when NOT using Linked Fire. Remember that not all Prisms need to Link fire. You can Link 2 of them, and the 3rd can shoot at something else. You'll probably want all 3 against an unwounded Knight, but if a Knight is already half dead, it could be wasted fire, so the 3rd Prism can start stripping wounds off a different Knight, preferably one that is wounded and Doomed.

Also, the Autarchs are relatively cheap and can provide much needed counter assault. Every now and then, a unit slips through and 1-2 Autarchs charging in can make a difference in protecting the Prisms. They aren't ideal for an "Anti-Knight" list, but they have been gold against other armies, particularly Marine list.

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How's it working for you so far? You got a lot of variable number of shots there, all paying for high AP which can be disastrous against anything with invuln saves.

karandrasss wrote:
How's it working for you so far? You got a lot of variable number of shots there, all paying for high AP which can be disastrous against anything with invuln saves.

My list struggles with hordes, not things with invuls. 100+ 1W model lists can be tough, but as Eldar, I have superior movement and other shenanigans to use to win the mission. I use the movement of my Flyers and deployment of my Rangers to strict enemy movement so they are where I want them.

I still don't get why everyone is so insistent that units with Invuls are such a hard counter. Pick a unit with an invul, cast Jinx on it, remove it from the board. That formula works pretty good for me. Throw in a Mortal Wounds from Smite and Rangers.
90% of invuls are 5+, maybe 4+. That still fails plenty and when it does, it really helps to have multi-damage weapons.

I haven't faced a DeathGuard or Nurgle list yet, which I suspect should be the hardest for my list to take on.

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I fight nurgle all the time.

My last outing gave him fits.

I took an Ulthwe Wraith list.

a big unit of 10 wraith Guard that was Protected and Fortuned ( I know ...kinda a waste) It soaked up so much fire.

my Seers owned the psychic phase as they do 8 of 10 games.

His biggest mistake was sending a 3rd of his army to go after my Hawks and Avengers. I told him that they were bait. I put them on his flank...and he STILL turned around to wipe them out. By they time they came back the game was over.

40k needs more use of tactics like Bait and flanking. Too many games are just in your face...throw dice.=== boring.