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 undertow wrote:
I went to TSHFT (ITC format) this weekend and brought an Eldar army.

Enjoyable read, are you just getting back into the hobby? I'm in the same shoes as you having not played for 5 or 6 years and note have my Eldar and Deathwatch on the painting table.

I think I'm going to be exactly the same when I play forgetting everything as it's been multiple editions since I played! Sounds like you had fun though which is the main thing.

Rogerio134134 wrote:

 undertow wrote:
I went to TSHFT (ITC format) this weekend and brought an Eldar army.

Enjoyable read, are you just getting back into the hobby? I'm in the same shoes as you having not played for 5 or 6 years and note have my Eldar and Deathwatch on the painting table.

I think I'm going to be exactly the same when I play forgetting everything as it's been multiple editions since I played! Sounds like you had fun though which is the main thing.

Yeah, I hadn't played a game in about 2.5 years, and hadn't played my Eldar in about 5.

The tournament was a lot of fun, all of my opponents were great. Two of my sons were there with me (22 and 16 yrs old).

 Galef wrote:

Spoiler:

_____Battalion <Alaitoc>___+5 CP
140-- Farseer Skyrunner w/ Spear, Doom & Fortune (Puritanical Leader WL trait)
130-- Autarch Skyrunner w/ Lance, Banshee mask & Reaper launcher
130-- Autarch Skyrunner w/ Lance, Banshee mask & Reaper launcher

60- 5 Rangers
60- 5 Rangers
127-- 14 Guardians w/ Shuricannon

270-- 6 Wraithguard w/ D-scythes
134-- Wave Serpent w/ 3 Shuricannons

175- Fire Prism w/ Crystal Targeting Matrix & Spirit stones
175- Fire Prism w/ Crystal Targeting Matrix & Spirit stones

_____Flyer <Alaitoc>_____+1CP
210-- Hemlock Wraithfighter w/ Jinx
210-- Hemlock Wraithfighter w/ Jinx
175-- Crimson Hunter Exarch w/ Bright lances
----------------------------------------------------------------- [ 1996 pts] 9CPs

What is your general in-game strategy with this army against the common top-tier armies, ie. how do you actually win with this arm?

For example, what do you Fortune?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

What is your general in-game strategy with this army against the common top-tier armies, ie. how do you actually win with this arm?

For example, what do you Fortune?

How do I win? Um, depends on my opponent.
Typically I just target enemy units that will give me issues later on and take objectives. I play the mission.

Fortune either goes on the Serpent or the WG depending, but I've also used it on the Prisms that peaks out of LOS for Linked Fire, although usually I use Fire & Fade to keep both Prims out of LoS.
I also use the movement of the Hemlocks to block movement of enemies, or as a general distraction.
The Farseer moves to where the Guardians want to drop, Dooms the unit they will shoot at, then they drop around the Seer. The Autarchs give out rerolls, plink shots and provide counter assault.

I'm not sure where your condescension is coming from as this list does pretty well for me and is the closest to an all-comers list I can take. I have to be fairly adaptable and basically predict what my opponent plans on doing, but that has always been my best strength as a player (at least before GW priced me out of owning all the rules). But the list has just about all the tools for the jobs I need to do.
Admittedly, I swap the WG and Serpent for 5 Shining Spears and a 3rd Prism in competitive tournies, but I play this list more often

-

There's no condescension. I was genuinely asking about your in-game decisions with this army that leads it to victory, particularly against the other competitive armies.

Many people still think army lists are all you need to win, but in today's 8th edition, this is simply not true, and I wanted to know how it worked because it was a list that appealed to me.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
There's no condescension. I was genuinely asking about your in-game decisions with this army that leads it to victory, particularly against the other competitive armies.

Many people still think army lists are all you need to win, but in today's 8th edition, this is simply not true, and I wanted to know how it worked because it was a list that appealed to me.

Oh, sorry. I read context that wasn't there.

I took a similar list a few weeks ago against a 5 Knight list. He only had 1900pts, so to drop to that, I swapped the Guardians for more Rangers, dropped 1 WG and gave them all Cannons and swapped the Serpent for a 3rd Prism.
I didn't think it would do well, but I ended up going first and killed one of the Knights in the first turn using Linked Fire on the Prims.
I also used the Hemlocks to block another Knight from being able to move his full movement towards me, which bought an extra turn to shoot at it (or rather to shoot at another Knight)
The Rangers did surprisingly well in the game too, especially with Doom.

Jinx was absolutely the MVP power in this game, and is pretty much my favorite power. Turning those 5++ into 6s effectively doubled my damage output. I was removing 1 Knight per turn. I was also able to put various wounds on other Knights each turn as well. By turn 3, the Knight played had a severely crippled Knight (like 2-3 wound left) and his 2 mini-Knights left. I had only lost the WG (who webway portaled in and ALMOST killed an unwounded Knight on the drop), 1 Hemlock and 2 Ranger units

-

DarknessEternal wrote: Many people still think army lists are all you need to win, but in today's 8th edition, this is simply not true....

True. My list got 25 rangers and other players don't understand why I would pick a unit with that low amount of damage output. The gave me the math but don't see the complete picture and the synergy with other units within the army. My Craftworld/harlequin/drukhari army got an amazing toolbox and players don't see it's potential until the play against it. It's like a "glass scalpel" list but players only see the glass until the get cut!

Galef wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
There's no condescension. I was genuinely asking about your in-game decisions with this army that leads it to victory, particularly against the other competitive armies.

Many people still think army lists are all you need to win, but in today's 8th edition, this is simply not true, and I wanted to know how it worked because it was a list that appealed to me.

Oh, sorry. I read context that wasn't there.

I took a similar list a few weeks ago against a 5 Knight list. He only had 1900pts, so to drop to that, I swapped the Guardians for more Rangers, dropped 1 WG and gave them all Cannons and swapped the Serpent for a 3rd Prism.
I didn't think it would do well, but I ended up going first and killed one of the Knights in the first turn using Linked Fire on the Prims.
I also used the Hemlocks to block another Knight from being able to move his full movement towards me, which bought an extra turn to shoot at it (or rather to shoot at another Knight)
The Rangers did surprisingly well in the game too, especially with Doom.

Jinx was absolutely the MVP power in this game, and is pretty much my favorite power. Turning those 5++ into 6s effectively doubled my damage output. I was removing 1 Knight per turn. I was also able to put various wounds on other Knights each turn as well. By turn 3, the Knight played had a severely crippled Knight (like 2-3 wound left) and his 2 mini-Knights left. I had only lost the WG (who webway portaled in and ALMOST killed an unwounded Knight on the drop), 1 Hemlock and 2 Ranger units

-

Doom and jinx are so important so that's why would almost always include a warlock with jinx to make sure I can use the +1 psychic test stratagem for farseer and warlock combi. My armylist also includes 3x10 mandrakes with balefire, in combination with doom and jinx knights start to drop!

I played a game yesterday and it did not go well for me...at all.
My opponent had 3 Renegade knights with double dakka on all of them and a TSons Battalion with Arhiman, 1 Flying Prince 2x 10 cultist and 30, yes 30, 'deepstriking' Tzaangors.

My dice completely failed me as I only got Jinx off once and my Prisms never rolled more that 2 shots on a D3 for the Focused mode and often only rolled 1. I also ran out of CPs in turn 2. Arhiman just shut down my psychic phase and the Prince had a field day against my Flyers (mostly but making me scared to go near it).
He went first and we were playing the table corners deployment, so he boxed me in early. I managed to kill 2 of the 3 Knights by turn 3, even with him consistently having either a 5++ or 4++ for rotating Ion shields and Jink either failing or being denied by Arhiman. But by then it was far too late. All the objectives were on the opposite corner and I lost too much firepower to muscle my way through.
And the Rangers I had placed on the objective kinda evaporated by turn 2

But the Tzaangors, my god. Even though they failed to charge when they arrived, using Warp Time (in the next turn) and a fight twice Strat, I couldn't do a thing against them while the Knights were still alive. I just didn't have the fire power at all. The Prism might have done well, but their priority was the Knights

It also got a bit under my skin that he ended up with over twice the CPs as I did. He started with 14 and had a relic to get more on a 5+ every time I spent a CP. I only had 10 CPs and used them up FAST. 3CPs to WWP 2 units it just dumb, even if my WG managed to put a dent in a Knight with their cannons. I'll never do that again.

TL;DR, 3 Knights + a Battalion with decent Psychic defense and a good Horde shuts my list down. Had I gone first, I might have stood a chance, but it still would have been an uphill battle.

-

I just got hit with similar. A dominus and 2 armiger's along with a battalion of Ad Mech led by 2 magos dominus? + Dunecrawler. I didn't even get my 2nd turn. House Raven knight's are fast and deadly.
I had an Alaitoc battallion of 2x5 rangers and 1x5 Avengers, farseer, autarch w/ wings, WK, which got speared on overwatch, WG in webway, Only 5 reapers though and a crimson hunter which died with the first shots of the game.
I'm at a total loss on how to beat it with my current collection.

Tactica for eldar goes as follows:

Go first

Or

Hide in wave serpents with fortune in them (Non-matchplay)

Deepstrike/Gate in

Rely on -1 to hit

I think Eldar need big units of Shining Spears and Crimson Hunters/Exarchs currently to deal with Knights, while then having enough units on the table to win the mission.

If you tag a Knight in combat with a unit of 9 spears and wrap the Knight, then it can’t fall back. Granted, the spears are going to need protect and fortune on them to survive until your next turn, but, it can be done.

The CHEs provide a decent amount of fire power, but, the downside is number of shots and only wounding on 4’s.

Alternatively, you can run Wraithguard with cannons or scythes to nuke a Knight from the webway/wave serpent, or, fall back on taking 30 dark reapers lol.

It sucks for Eldar right now vs Knights imo, unless you go for very specific builds. Mainly capping out at str 8 hurts. It is incredibly hard to take a list to deal with both hordes and Knights right now.

I think Eldar need big units of Shining Spears and Crimson Hunters/Exarchs currently to deal with Knights, while then having enough units on the table to win the mission.

If you tag a Knight in combat with a unit of 9 spears and wrap the Knight, then it can’t fall back. Granted, the spears are going to need protect and fortune on them to survive until your next turn, but, it can be done.

The CHEs provide a decent amount of fire power, but, the downside is number of shots and only wounding on 4’s.

Alternatively, you can run Wraithguard with cannons or scythes to nuke a Knight from the webway/wave serpent, or, fall back on taking 30 dark reapers lol.

It sucks for Eldar right now vs Knights imo, unless you go for very specific builds. Mainly capping out at str 8 hurts. It is incredibly hard to take a list to deal with both hordes and Knights right now.

I'm really struggling to see how you came to this conclusion. Eldar have to be one of the best armies at taking out single large models like knights. We have so many options for doing so: Spears, Reapers, Hemlocks, Hunters, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, Smite spam. Even shuriken weapons and rangers can plink wounds off. Much more important than our unit strength (which is substantial) is that jinx and doom are the best powers in the game against targets just like knights. Honestly, knights are a match up I'm excited for in tournaments since I know I have more than enough tools to deal with them.

Competitive or pipe dream : thoughts of running 2 autarchs in 2000 pt list?

Rationale:

always run autarch warlord for the potential CP recovery

That autarch is best on bike with lance and fusion


The problem is that it exposes your warlord and forces you to either think carefully with movement t or expend resources via CP or psychic

Idea is you get this guy non-warlord. Get warlord with Reaper launcher and mark of hunter to stay back and snipe

Colgado wrote:

I think Eldar need big units of Shining Spears and Crimson Hunters/Exarchs currently to deal with Knights, while then having enough units on the table to win the mission.

If you tag a Knight in combat with a unit of 9 spears and wrap the Knight, then it can’t fall back. Granted, the spears are going to need protect and fortune on them to survive until your next turn, but, it can be done.

The CHEs provide a decent amount of fire power, but, the downside is number of shots and only wounding on 4’s.

Alternatively, you can run Wraithguard with cannons or scythes to nuke a Knight from the webway/wave serpent, or, fall back on taking 30 dark reapers lol.

It sucks for Eldar right now vs Knights imo, unless you go for very specific builds. Mainly capping out at str 8 hurts. It is incredibly hard to take a list to deal with both hordes and Knights right now.

I'm really struggling to see how you came to this conclusion. Eldar have to be one of the best armies at taking out single large models like knights. We have so many options for doing so: Spears, Reapers, Hemlocks, Hunters, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, Smite spam. Even shuriken weapons and rangers can plink wounds off. Much more important than our unit strength (which is substantial) is that jinx and doom are the best powers in the game against targets just like knights. Honestly, knights are a match up I'm excited for in tournaments since I know I have more than enough tools to deal with them.

I agree that Eldar have plenty of units to take down Knights, but, they need to take down 4 Knights and 50+ Guardsmen.

Shining Spears are going to need either Quicken or to be dropped in the webway hoping to make their charge. They will also need Doom to be successfully cast on their chosen target. So, we are looking at least 446 points and 2 successful psychic tests, to do 18.315 wounds to a Knight (depending on the spears taking no losses from overwatch). The Spears likely then die before they do to do anything else.

Reapers are fantastic, but, the moment they drop out of their Serpent into LoS to fire, even with guide and doom 10 Reapers are looking at doing 10 damage. That is 450 points (594 if you include a spirit stone Wave Serpent) for that, and 2 successful psychic tests. You can then potentially fire and fade back out of LoS where possible, but, it might not be. Also costs a CP, and, if you can’t get back out of LoS, then the Reapers certainly die before they get to shoot again.

So, right now, for 2 Alpha units to deal with Knights we are looking at up to 930 points just to kill a Knight that has a 4++ vs shooting.

A couple of Hemlocks for flamer goodness and Jinx will give another 7.111 damage on a Knight, or 9.481 with Jinx, for 420 points. So, we are at 1450 points to kill 1.5 Knights on the initial alpha strike.

5 Fire Dragons is another 267 points with their Wave Serpent, for another 5.587 damage on a non Jinxed Knight. (This is also with Doom on – as the Dragons will be the “second wave”)

So, 1717 points so far.
Add in the required 3 units of Rangers for CP. 1897 points. You then have 103 points to spend on whatever you want. Maybe an Autarch for your WL and CP regen.

The point is, as much as it will work against a single Knight or 2, it isn’t going to be able to deal with 3 Knights, 2 Armigers and 50 obsec Guardsmen over the course of an ITC game. Everything depends on you getting 1st turn, getting the powers cast and then hoping you can kill a 2nd Knight turn 1 without Doom or Jinx cast on it.

Without Fortune and Protect, the Spears are going to quickly get removed after they suicide forward, and, the Reapers 100% depends on being out of LoS (even then, if the Guard have mortars or the Knights Ironstorm pods, then you’re still going to lose a couple a turn potentially). And then the Fire Dragons require a Wave Serpent.

Sure, you could replace the Fire Dragons and Wave Serpent for a Webway unit of 6 or 7 Wraithguard with Cannons, but, you then have the issue of them likely not being in range to even fire on the Knights after they arrive, due to screening. Likewise, with smite spam. You’re only going to be hitting screens with it, or not actually be casting it due to requiring the casts to be used on buffs and de-buffs.

The Knight part of my list, of 2 Crusaders, a Gallant and 2 Helverins will happily kill the unit of Spears, a couple of Reapers out of LoS and 1 Hemlock in a turn with relative ease, before charging into any unit of Rangers put in the centre of the table on objectives. If I end up going first, and it’s vs Alaitoc, it’ll be harder (though, I can ignore to hit modifers with 1 Knight), but it’d be still reasonably confident of doing the same. I wouldn’t even have to worry about the Wave Serpents, because I know that eventually you’re going to need to get the units out of them to stand a chance of doing anything to me.

On the flip side, the Craftworlds list I took to an event in Jan, built around 12 spears and 2 hemlocks, would likely completely fold after turn 1, as it wouldn’t have the sustained damage to kill the amount it needs to kill.

Ynnari, will, of course, swing it slightly with the Spears potentially getting to move into a better position to charge and the Reapers getting to shoot a 2nd time, but, it still isn’t putting out the reliable dmg imo – especially when you consider, that some Knights are going to have a 3++ vs shooting.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ovechkin8 wrote:
Competitive or pipe dream : thoughts of running 2 autarchs in 2000 pt list?

Rationale:

always run autarch warlord for the potential CP recovery

That autarch is best on bike with lance and fusion


The problem is that it exposes your warlord and forces you to either think carefully with movement t or expend resources via CP or psychic

Idea is you get this guy non-warlord. Get warlord with Reaper launcher and mark of hunter to stay back and snipe

Running 2, is possible, especially if you're running a gun line and then blobs of Shining Spears imo. The Spears will provide a little screening for the Autarch, while, the 2nd one, can just be on foot handing out re-roll 1's to the gunline and farming cp.

@ Kdash.

So you are saying the only way to beat knights is to remove 2 on the alpha strike?

No sarcasm, but do you find much point in playing the game? Or do you just compare lists and roll to see who goes first?

Headlss wrote:
@ Kdash.

So you are saying the only way to beat knights is to remove 2 on the alpha strike?

No sarcasm, but do you find much point in playing the game? Or do you just compare lists and roll to see who goes first?

I’m speaking more from a competitive pov that a sit down and play view. Don’t get me wrong, I would happily play a game with my normal Eldar vs several Knights, as I’d enjoy the challenge of trying to beat them, but, I thought we were talking about things from a competitive point of view and I was just giving my opinions on why I don’t think Eldar can deal with Knights as well as others have said.

Knights can be beaten in other ways, and Eldar can do it, but, that would require a completely different list imo and wouldn’t be about trying to kill the Knights. We were just discussing if they were to use their units that are on paper to kill Knights, how effective would it actually be. You then also have to consider how that list would then compare vs other more standard lists or other skew soup lists.

I do do a fair amount of analysis and planning for events that I go to – it’s just my curiosity being peaked by what others are taking and what I can do vs them. But, usually when people start having a discussion on dakka about “what is good” etc, it is often taken from a 1 turn wonder math hammer approach, whereas I try to take the approach of “well, what happens after the alpha strike?”

Debating lists on the net is completely different to playing the game. It’s becoming a big part of the “pre-game”, but, until the game is physically played then anything can happen. Talking about lists and units can be interesting and fun, in a way, as it is one of the ways you can learn and “theory craft” new ideas. The real fun and test comes though, when you use the list.

If you can kill a knight a turn you're normally in a good spot to win the game. Knight shooting is good, but its also limited; with Alaitoc and LFR I've found I can usually keep alive what needs to survive. If you kill one a turn their damage drops harshly, the game can snowball in the Eldar's favor very quickly.

I believe only one Knight can get a 4++ which requires a stratagem. Unless I am wrong, it should be pretty easy to do a feint, and cause your opponent to pop that stratagem on a knight, then shift fire to a different knight. Take a Twin Blight Lance Wave Serpent, with 10 Reapers inside, and use the BL to force the stratagem. Once it is used, just have your reapers target the a different knight. With Alaitoc, reducing knights to their second or third tier can vastly reduce their firepower. While it isn't as efficient as killing one, its better than nothing.

Here is a list that with a few tweaks, I think would stand up just fine against an all knight list.

To deal with Knights you can take a Warlock Conclave so you get to cast 36” Jinx. That way you can very reliably debuff and take down a Knight.

 mokoshkana wrote:
I believe only one Knight can get a 4++ which requires a stratagem. Unless I am wrong, it should be pretty easy to do a feint, and cause your opponent to pop that stratagem on a knight, then shift fire to a different knight. Take a Twin Blight Lance Wave Serpent, with 10 Reapers inside, and use the BL to force the stratagem. Once it is used, just have your reapers target the a different knight. With Alaitoc, reducing knights to their second or third tier can vastly reduce their firepower. While it isn't as efficient as killing one, its better than nothing.

My issue is that it is very obvious which Knight is going to be focused on due to casting Jinx. Taking the 5++ and making it a 6 makes it much easier to take down. But if it gets bump back to 5++, it ends up not mattering which Knight I shoot.

One potential solution is to Jinx Knight A, and Doom Knight B. The have something like a Crismson Hunter or Twinlance Serpent shoot at Knight B. If he then burns the strat to give Knight B a 4++, you then move on to Link Fire your 3 Prism to kill Knight A.
The problem is that a good player with knowledge of what Eldar can do will see the bait and burn the strat only when the Prisms declare a target.
But either way, Rotate Ion shields may as well be "1CP to ignore Jinx or Doom"

-

 Galef wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
I believe only one Knight can get a 4++ which requires a stratagem. Unless I am wrong, it should be pretty easy to do a feint, and cause your opponent to pop that stratagem on a knight, then shift fire to a different knight. Take a Twin Blight Lance Wave Serpent, with 10 Reapers inside, and use the BL to force the stratagem. Once it is used, just have your reapers target the a different knight. With Alaitoc, reducing knights to their second or third tier can vastly reduce their firepower. While it isn't as efficient as killing one, its better than nothing.

My issue is that it is very obvious which Knight is going to be focused on due to casting Jinx. Taking the 5++ and making it a 6 makes it much easier to take down. But if it gets bump back to 5++, it ends up not mattering which Knight I shoot.

One potential solution is to Jinx Knight A, and Doom Knight B. The have something like a Crismson Hunter or Twinlance Serpent shoot at Knight B. If he then burns the strat to give Knight B a 4++, you then move on to Link Fire your 3 Prism to kill Knight A.
The problem is that a good player with knowledge of what Eldar can do will see the bait and burn the strat only when the Prisms declare a target.
But either way, Rotate Ion shields may as well be "1CP to ignore Jinx or Doom"

-

Of course also taking in consideration our powers work properly and when we need it. I had so many bad experiences when the dice are against me and they say no powers going off this phase.

I often field 2x flyers in my matches (being playing fast strike lists with bikes and transports) and i found that the Phoenix bomber from FW can be a decent all around flyers with both AT and anti horde weapons. also a proper Restrain when fielding 2x Hemlocks can give just enough time to get the job well done.

 Galef wrote:

But either way, Rotate Ion shields may as well be "1CP to ignore Jinx or Doom"
-

And if they ever fix Imperium CP farming, this will still be good. Making someone spend a non-renewable resource on defense to counter a renewable resource should be a gain.

Unfortunately, command points are renewable for Imperium.

One point for discussion surrounding the use of Ion shield (and other similar stratagems) that was brought in my group:

The steps to target enemy unit(s) with shooting are as follows according to the BRB:

1. Choose unit to shoot with
2. Choose Target(s)
3. Choose Ranged weapon

Rotate Ion Shields should be used at step 2 according to my reading. Note this is before you choose what weapons you want to use against what targets.

So if you have say, a unit of 10 Reapers, you could declare
shooting against 2 different Knights, forcing your opponent to pick one to use the stratagem on. Then you simply have 1 Reaper shoot at the Knight who has the +1 invuln, and the other 9 select the vulnerable knight as your target.

Doesn't really work well with Fire Prisms of course, but there are plenty of other units that can use this to try and bait your opponents stratagem out on the wrong Knight. Bascially anything with more than one gun.

Of course the shoe is also on the other foot next turn, and you might find this being used against you to bait out Lightning Reflexes

Models chose a target in 8th, not units.

So your not saying "this unit shoots at X and Y"
its "These models shoot at X, these shoot at Y"

So Rotate Ion shields is when he knows who is shooting at what. Just not what gun you will be using.

 Ordana wrote:
Models chose a target in 8th, not units.

So your not saying "this unit shoots at X and Y"
its "These models shoot at X, these shoot at Y"

So Rotate Ion shields is when he knows who is shooting at what. Just not what gun you will be using.

Wording seems to indicate otherwise, I've picked out the key action sentences in bold and paraphrased rather than just post the whole rule:

2. Choose targets

"Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit or units for the attacks. In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within range of the weapon being used and visible". The conditions for a target to be chosen are decided per model (range and LOS), but as long as they meet this requirement you can select them at this stage.

Now the stratagem must be used as the knight has been targeted.

3. Choose Ranged Weapon

"...declare how you will split the units shots before any dice are rolled." Now we choose to divvy up the attacks per model and/or per weapon as applicable. "if a unit contains more than one model, they can shoot at the same target, or different targets as you choose". So now is when we pick targets per model, out of those delcared in the previous step.

Just using the Reapers as a theoretical example. Either way it would definitely work for a single model, was thinking of my Scorpion, which has an auxiliary heavy weapon alongside its Twin Pulsars.

I played 3 Falcons for the lulz. Surprisingly I returned ~80% or more of their points before everything died to Shadowsword (easily serpent + 1/2 any other tank a turn) + 7 LR, although with some help from characters. Pulse laser is neat, 4 saves failed, 12 damage.

Falcons do need at least 5++ for some movement/rule like holofields from FW or ability to shoot pulse laser without penalty for movement or just make 1-2 extra shots from it due to some rule though.

Banshees are really wonderful for what they can do to mess up enemy shooting units with that threat range. Could probably drop 1 point maybe, but eh.

Hawks are alright, although even against preferred targets (T3, bad save), I'd add 1 more shot to their guns for Assault 5, really.

Avengers for what they are now, while threatening with rending, I'd say should cost 10 points. Unless other infantry gets increase in points across the game. They're not really bad or anything, but against 4 ppw troops, against cheap 4+ or 3+ stuff in cover, against stuff that just resurrects, against cheap stuff with invulnerable save that resurrects, and even against something cheap in cover it's a struggle already.

Warp Spiders as 3d echelon of grabbing objectives and surviving greatly in cover, -1/-2 to -3 to hit especially against armies with average BS4, are alright but would benefit from 1-2 pts decrease or 2 damage on 6s to wound.

Farseers and Autarches are mostly worth their points.

Grabbed a Warlock to fill up Brigade, casted Jinx 3 times. Failed twice with re-roll, was denied once. Terrifying Eldar Mages TM.

Artel-W posted another new design of theirs: https://pp.userapi.com/c845120/v845120720/a96cd/a8k6F3hQZsU.jpg
Mostly similar to not-whatwehavenow, but for everyone who just LOVES Finecast(not) seems like nice alternative. Meaning it's time to think about painting 15 scorpions. Played Falcons already, we must. sink. deeper.

 Shadenuat wrote:
I

Artel-W posted another new design of theirs: https://pp.userapi.com/c845120/v845120720/a96cd/a8k6F3hQZsU.jpg
Mostly similar to not-whatwehavenow, but for everyone who just LOVES Finecast(not) seems like nice alternative. Meaning it's time to think about painting 15 scorpions. Played Falcons already, we must. sink. deeper.

Looks like Predator wearing chitin armour from Morrowind

Spartacus wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Models chose a target in 8th, not units.

So your not saying "this unit shoots at X and Y"
its "These models shoot at X, these shoot at Y"

So Rotate Ion shields is when he knows who is shooting at what. Just not what gun you will be using.

Wording seems to indicate otherwise, I've picked out the key action sentences in bold and paraphrased rather than just post the whole rule:

2. Choose targets

"Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit or units for the attacks. In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within range of the weapon being used and visible". The conditions for a target to be chosen are decided per model (range and LOS), but as long as they meet this requirement you can select them at this stage.

Now the stratagem must be used as the knight has been targeted.

3. Choose Ranged Weapon

"...declare how you will split the units shots before any dice are rolled." Now we choose to divvy up the attacks per model and/or per weapon as applicable. "if a unit contains more than one model, they can shoot at the same target, or different targets as you choose". So now is when we pick targets per model, out of those delcared in the previous step.

Just using the Reapers as a theoretical example. Either way it would definitely work for a single model, was thinking of my Scorpion, which has an auxiliary heavy weapon alongside its Twin Pulsars.

Well thats why I get for assuming the Target header talks about targets and not reading the choose weapon bit...

This is dumb.

There’s a very real way to taking down Knights.

If they play Raven, and you get 1a, you Vect the Rotate Ion Shield. Seer Council and the re-rolls make Doom and Jinx reliable. That’s a step the Knight can avoid with better deployment, but the spells aren’t mandatory for the Eldar opener.

Against Taranis, you need to let them Rotate, and you just blast through it and Vect the Darkest Hour.

The list I used recently at a major tournament does 36,6 wounds to T8 5++ without Doom and Jinx from the vehicles and flyers. Sufficient to say, even to 4++ it’s enough for a one shot. If you get the spells off, there’s a realistic chance the first Knight pops before the Prisms even Link, so they get to put their 12 wounds of damage against a second Knight.

Gallants are just target dummies because they can be boxed in with flyers and blocked from moving. If Gallants get 1a you need to Vect the Full Tilt. The always taken BA Captains don’t really change anything, except that you need to keep moving and outranging the 24” threat range, and Vecting the Upon Wings of Fire every turn.

In short, Vect and the 6+/6+ refund, flyers and Prisms are an answer to everything.

I hope this helps anyone who is struggling in the matchup.

This isn’t to say there doesn’t exist a chain of events that will lead to an Eldar loss, but it’s most certainly Eldar favored matchup. The BA+Custo+Astra soup is the easiest, then comes the Crusaders/Gallants+BA+Astra and lastly the Castellan+BA+Astra as the most tricky one if you get a long deployment (range will be an issue so you need to wreck the infantry and BA first and leave the Knight for later.

EDIT:

To the above poster, regarding targeting: By rulebook RAW it's correct you only nominate targets, you don't designate weapons, but wherever the ETC FAQ is in effect you need to nominate at least one weapon per target when you're declaring targets. This makes Lightning-Fast Reactions and Rotate Ion Shields easy to use (you pop defensives wherever the biggest enemy gun is going).

 Galef wrote:

Spoiler:

I played a game yesterday and it did not go well for me...at all.
My opponent had 3 Renegade knights with double dakka on all of them and a TSons Battalion with Arhiman, 1 Flying Prince 2x 10 cultist and 30, yes 30, 'deepstriking' Tzaangors.

My dice completely failed me as I only got Jinx off once and my Prisms never rolled more that 2 shots on a D3 for the Focused mode and often only rolled 1. I also ran out of CPs in turn 2. Arhiman just shut down my psychic phase and the Prince had a field day against my Flyers (mostly but making me scared to go near it).
He went first and we were playing the table corners deployment, so he boxed me in early. I managed to kill 2 of the 3 Knights by turn 3, even with him consistently having either a 5++ or 4++ for rotating Ion shields and Jink either failing or being denied by Arhiman. But by then it was far too late. All the objectives were on the opposite corner and I lost too much firepower to muscle my way through.
And the Rangers I had placed on the objective kinda evaporated by turn 2

But the Tzaangors, my god. Even though they failed to charge when they arrived, using Warp Time (in the next turn) and a fight twice Strat, I couldn't do a thing against them while the Knights were still alive. I just didn't have the fire power at all. The Prism might have done well, but their priority was the Knights

It also got a bit under my skin that he ended up with over twice the CPs as I did. He started with 14 and had a relic to get more on a 5+ every time I spent a CP. I only had 10 CPs and used them up FAST. 3CPs to WWP 2 units it just dumb, even if my WG managed to put a dent in a Knight with their cannons. I'll never do that again.

TL;DR, 3 Knights + a Battalion with decent Psychic defense and a good Horde shuts my list down. Had I gone first, I might have stood a chance, but it still would have been an uphill battle.

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I know I'm a tad late pointing this out, I'm a Thousand Sons player but I'm going to be getting into Craftworld Eldar very soon so I've been reading through the Tactica to get some ideas on how to build/play. Anyway, I just wanted to make sure that your opponent was using Helm of the Third Eye (the relic that gives CP that you mentioned) correctly. It only gives you a CP on a 5+ for each stratagem that your opponent uses, not for each CP. So if you're using a stratagem that costs 3CP, I'm still only rolling for a 5+ once and only getting one CP if the roll passes.

That may be a bit of a convoluted way to describe it but I hope it's clear enough! I just felt like clarifying as you stated that "he'd get more on a 5+ every time I spent a CP."